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Thread: A Beginners Guide to Total War

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (WarHawk1953 @ Dec. 29 2003,01:26)]frogbeastegg,
    Thank You for the guide. I just bought MTW and have ordered Viking Invasion. I have played STW:WE and I have found that MTW is harder strategicaly and easier tacticaly. Your guide will be a lot of help. I have tried the Early English on Normal and have had my headed handed to me by the French.
    Yes the transition can be a little shocking, especially if you used ashigaru troops in Shogun and thought peasants were the MTW equivolent Also attacking and taking too much land without stopping to rebuild frequently is a common ex-Shogun mistake that results in mass rebellions and crumbling empries. Many a former Daimyo has been defeated for those mistakes. The Viking era campaign in the add-on is a lot closer in feel and style to Shogun than the main medieval one.


    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I have found that bribing the Welsh helpful and taking Scotland a mistake so far. The Frech build up has me beat. In my war I had three objectives, (1) Take Brittany ,(2)Flanders, raid Paris and weaken the the French. I would like to take them all out as early as possible but the English are two weak in the begining. What would be the earliest date to knock out the French? Well with some study I will find the right answer to reach theses objectives.
    Tricky question as it depends on the player, the difficulty, what the AI wants to do and so on. Generally speaking it is easier to knock the French out sooner rather than later because they have richer lands than you and often only grow stronger with time. This is where the English need to do a Shimazu and conduct a fast and victoriouis war that is finished inside of 2 years. Take 3 French provinces (Flanders, Brittany and Toulouse for me) in those 2 years and the French are as good as gone. With a little more prepping up up can take 4 provinces in the 2 years. When you get the warning from the Pope stop and wait for exactly 10 years before attacking again. You can have the French wiped off the map inside of 20 turns from the start of the game, well with practise anyway. There are a lot of topics on tactics for the English campaign so I won't reitterate, just run a search for England.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Which faction is the easiest to play by faith? Catholic, Orthodox and Muslim? Why?
    You don't do easy questions, do you? That depends on several factors such as what tactics you like to use on the battlefield, what kind of position you want on the campaign map, whether you want to deal with the Pope or not, etc. I always find the Catholic factions easier because I like their armies and I fight well with them, enabling me to win battles that are unfavourable in odds. Easier Catholic factions include England and Spain, while Spain is rated hard by the game it is actually very easy because it has rich lands, easy access to iron for troop upgrades, an enemy that is made for attacking without upsetting the Pope (Almohads), reasonable trade with access to both the Med and North seas, and a narrrow set of borders with France and co. There are also many gold mines along the trail leading to the Crusader provinces and you can sweep them up while moving to grab the hideously rich and worthwhile trio of Antioch, Tripoli, and Edessa. Spain has the typical Catholic army with a couple of extra units thrown in, Jinetes are very good when you get the hang of them and lancers are devestating but only around in late and you will probably have finished your camapign by then. England you have already seen, once they hit high they have some excellent unique units (billmen and longbows) and if you have taken out France and got Wales and Scotland you are in a very healthy position to persue a multitude of posibilites. Both these factions benefit from a aggressive start - think like Shimazu in the early game and flatten those who pose a threat to you before settling back to build your borders and stabilise. All Catholic factions have to deal with the Pope and that is their biggest drawback. However once you learn how to take care of the Pope (poisoned chocolates work well, as do visiting armies kicking over his sandcastles ) life becomes much sunnier

    The Muslim factions don't have to deal with the Pope screaming at them each time they do anything and this is part of their appeal to many players. However they do tend to be on the recieving end of crusades but as long as you keep strong borders they shouldn't pose a problem. Muslim factions tend to have more flexible armies as they often get a lot of speedy cavalry and mounted missile units. Infantry wise they don't have the punch of the Catholics except for certain eras where they do have a very nice advantage. The Almohads have strong infantry in early but less so in high and late, the Egyptians have a few nice spear units like Saracens, and the Turks trample the opposition when they get their Janissary units in High. However generally speaking you can't just assemble an army and march straight at the foe and squish them like the Catholics. The Almohads are a good faction for a beginner as they start with a good position and have easy access to one of the best units in early - the Almohad urban militia. The Turks are easy in high or late. The Egyptians are supposed to be easy in early but I don't get on with their armies too well so I find them harder.

    Orthodox factions are a mixture. The Byzantines start off incredibly strong but by late they are as weak as anything because in terms of units they have everything at the start and that is basically it for them - no real upgrades like the other factions. You need to get going in early and basically kick ass for lack of a better description Stabilise your empire and then destroy the foe with all possible speed but be careful not to over reach and trigger a lot of rebellions. They have good enough units to persue either strong arm Catholoic style infantry and heavy cavalry pounding the enemy or to take a more mobile approach with their miunted archer types and faster cavalry. The Russians are not available in early and they are usually classed as quite hard. Orthodox factions don't deal with the Pope and they can be common targets for crusades but as long as you keep your borders protected this shouldn't be a problem.

    Decide whether you want to faff around with the Pope and then try out some of the factions. If you like the armies then try the faction in the campaign.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  2. #62
    Member Member Quokka's Avatar
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    You may want to add a paragragh to the section on Crusades outlining how you get the Crusader Knights only in a Crusade. There are always questions about how to train Templars, Hospitallers and Santiagos as the manual is very unclear on this point. I think it was also the first question that I asked.
    The only notes that matter come in wads - Sex Pistols

  3. #63
    Member Member Ashen's Avatar
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    I thought santigago were untrainable due to a slight oversight, available only with crusades?
    HOF Winner 2003 - Sig Maker

  4. #64

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    Added small section on crusader units and a link to the unit guide. Ditto for the entrance hall version.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  5. #65
    Member Member WarHawk1953's Avatar
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    frogbeastegg,

    Thank You for your reply. I think that Your answer to: Which faction is the easiest to play by faith? Catholic, Orthodox and Muslim? Why? That this answer be added to your manuel. Your answer was very informantive for a beginner.

    I do have another question? Size of units, default, med, large, How size of units effect the game? I am playing default now
    WarHawk1953

  6. #66
    Member Member WarHawk1953's Avatar
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    frogbeastegg,

    One other question on units.Does the AI retrain and upgrade units?
    WarHawk1953

  7. #67

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    Unit sizes.
    On small size: Bodyguards 20 cavalry 20 infantry 30 spears 50
    On default size: Bodyguards 20 cavalry 40 infantry 60 spears 100
    On medium size: Bodyguards 20 cavalry 53 infantry 80 spears 133
    On large unit size: Bodyguards 33 cavalry 66 infantry 100 spears 166
    On huge unit size: Bodyguards 40 cavalry 80 infantry 120 spears 200

    Smaller unit sizes give you plenty of space to manouver on the battlefield but it is harder to deploy spears and pikes to get the rank bonus because they are rather fiddly at smaller sizes. Larger unit sizes make the battlefield seem very small and it can get hard to manouver as effectively as you might like, however it is easy to arrange spears/pikes to get the rank bonus. Of course there are also the performance related issues with unit size, basically smaller is better in terms of game performance. I play on medium.

    AI upgrading.
    Well you do see AI owned units with the upgrade icons so they certainly construct the upgrade buildings so newly built units get bonuses. Whether they go back and retrain old units to get the new bonuses and refill the men is less certain. If they do it is on a limited scale because I am always seeing a lot of damaged units hanging around. My gut instinct would be that the AI does not retrain.

    The guide.
    Ok, copying it over to both versions.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  8. #68
    Member Member WarHawk1953's Avatar
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    Talking

    frogbeastegg,
    Thank you again for your info, unit size should be added also. I did find part of that out when I tried the same faction on each option to see for my self. Which size do you find best? Which would you recomend and why?
    WarHawk1953

  9. #69

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    I use medium in both Shogun and MTW. Originally I used that setting because it was the largest my then crappy PC could handle and the default units always seem too small to make the battle feel like a real battle rather than a skirmish. Now my PC has been upgraded I can use any of them but I find that past medium the units get too large to fit on the battlefield properly, for example two units of spears can perch on a certain hilltop on medium but on huge you can only fit one and a half. This makes it much harder to arrange my army how I like. The smaller unit settings lose the epic feel of the game but they are nice and easy to arrange. I'm a creature of habit and changing the settings from medium would represent a lot of confusion as I wonder where the extra 20 bodyguards came from

    The option is really performance related, so if your PC is a bit weak you should stick to the smaller sizes. If your PC is capable then you can try the larger sizes and find one you are comfortable with. Medium will always represent (to me) a happy balance between performace, maximum men on the field, manouverability, and ease of deployment.

    I shall add that into this guide, the chart originally comes from my unit guide. There are some other things that might be useful for this guide so I think I shall have to revamp the whole thing. Besides the beginner's guide is so shabby looking and unproffessional in comparison to the unit guide that it makes me wince. That and the fact I have to redo this as HTML myself since the people who were supposed to be doing that have vanished, meaning I need to smarten it up a bit before I break out notepad.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  10. #70

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    Once again added more requested information. Also a pile of new stuff like economic break even points, command lines, cheat codes, unit size comparison charts, extra information on a few hundred points etc etc.

    Also revamped the format slightly so the index is more useful. Chapter headings are now in a larger font to make them easier to find. The credits now have names in bold so they are easier to find. The general layout has been tweaked to break up large chunks of text, also fixed typos and spelling errors. Finally got around to listing the VI patch as available with a link.

    So not quite a whole new guide but certainly a lot of changes making this a new version up from the last one, version 3.0 I think. Yes 1.0 was the original, 2.0 was the printable so this is 3.0
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  11. #71
    Member Member Michael the Great's Avatar
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    frogbeastegg,I must this is a GREAT guide
    Could'nt of wrote it better myself...
    Io,Mihai-Voda,din mila lui Dumnezeu,domn al Tarii Romanesti,Tarii Ardealului si a toata tara Moldovei.

  12. #72
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Question

    Froggy, as I already said, I'm very impressed by your work.
    But I cannot find any reference to wedge-formation. Is it useless?

    And, but this is just splitting hairs, perhaps you should add that spearmen in Shogun do not get a rank bonus.

    Thanks, Ludens

    BTW why Europa Barbarorum?
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  13. #73

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    Europa Barbarum is Stephan the Berseker's campaign to get more accurate units into RTW. Less pickaxe wielding berserkers and more accurate barbarians. An evolution of this thread, people are beginning to put the banner in their sig to show support but the banner with my sig would be too long and the small sig brigade would crusade me Besides I don't like big signatures and I want accuracy for all factions, not just the barbarian ones - no more resurrected Pharonic mummies fighting for Egypt please CA, I am asking politely because I want RTW to be the game of my dreams There have been PMs going around about it, but if you haven't received one yet you could contact Stephan and ask for details.

    Wedge formation? Actually I forget that one exists in MTW, so rarely do I use it. Now in Shogun a good wedge of no-dachi really hits the spot and performs well on a charge but in MTW I always found them a bit lacking because the men don't mix up and get in the fight as quickly as they did in Shogun. In STW you can use a wedge to charge, do a lot of damage while losing a few guys and then switch to close after a couple of seconds to fight it out. In MTW you just don't do that much damage, the wedge doesn't penetrate the enemy line as well and it takes longer for the men at the back to get into the fray after switching to close. I found I always did more damage and lost fewer men with my units on close, two ranks (or the correct number for spears and pikes) than I did on wedge because while wedge has a better attacking stats bonus for the initial charge fewer men actually used their charge bonus becasue there were less men fighting. Judging from how little discussion of the wedge formation there is now I assume that many others don't use it much, if at all.

    Wedge can be good for manovering because it is smaller and tighter than a line, also you don't have to drag the unit out which helps if you are in too much of a hurry to make a 6 rank deep close formation to achieve the same compactness. I still use wedge in Shogun from time to time.

    The guide isn't really applicable for Shogun, I should have called it The Beginner's Guide to Medieval: Total war but it is half a year too late to change it. A lot of the tips do go both ways but so much doesn't that it would be futile to label what doesn't work for Shogun. Back when I wrote this Shogun wasn't working and I hadn't played it in over a year so I didn't remember exactly how different some of it was. If Shogun was more popular I could put together a matching guide for Shogun but there don't seem to be many people picking the game up now.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  14. #74

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    One use for the wedge that I and others use is for archers when they run out of arrows - at a glance you can see which still have ammo & which don't and they're also much easier to manuever round the battlefield than 2 long stringy rows of soldiers
    "I request permanent reassignment to the Gallic frontier. Nay, I demand reassignment. Perhaps it is improper to say so, but I refuse to fight against the Greeks or Macedonians any more. Give my command to another, for I cannot, I will not, lead an army into battle against a civilized nation so long as the Gauls survive. I am not the young man I once was, but I swear before Jupiter Optimus Maximus that I shall see a world without Gauls before I take my final breath."

    Senator Augustus Verginius

  15. #75
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Thanks for the information, Frogbeastegg.
    As you can see; I too have joined up with Europa Barbarorum without adopting the banner. YOU need not fear the Crusade against Oversized Sigs because you're pretty much invulnerable to the supporters of these petty campaigns .

    Mount Suribachi, thanks for the tip.



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  16. #76
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Frogbeastegg, I have done a couple of experiments in Shogun custom battles (WE 1.02 stats) to test the effectiveness of different formations. I wanted to see what was better: 2 lines, 3 lines or a wedge. The results were not exactly what I expected.

    Setup
    Map: the ironing board
    Weather: mostly fine (sometimes light rain)
    Difficulty: normal
    Units: H2 no-dach samurai (me, ronin) versus H2 yari samurai (computer, Shimazu)

    Experiment
    I formed up the no-dachi samurai in the appropriate formation, then ordered them to attack the enemy (attack, not "charge"). Then I started time-compression (*) and waited until the battle was over. I counted casualities from the tooltip of the units, not the end-battle screen, since that always said that one or two more yari samurai had died than the tooltip indicated.

    The test was repeated 15 times for each formation. After each test kills and casualities were registered. When all tests were completed, kills / casualities were averaged and kill ratio was calculated.

    * Special case: the wedge-formation switching to close, I waited until all no-dachi samurai had had a chance to charge, and then switched to close. Then I turned on time compression.

    Results
    No-dachi samurai:

    Formation kills/casualities | kill-ratio | number of defeats
    Close, 2 lines 47,3/22,1 2,14 0
    Close, 3 lines 47,2/21,5 2,20 1
    Wedge 45,3/44,9 1,01 7
    Special ** 50,1/33,9 1,48 2

    ** Wedge formation switching to close, 3 lines after impact

    Evaluation
    The results for 2 and 3 lines close formation are so alike that the difference is not significant. Not in these specific circumstances, that is. The single defeat at 3 lines close formation is probably just bad luck.
    Wedge formation is a downright disaster: half of the time the no-dachi samurai were defeated. Wedge switching to close after the charge did cause more kills, but the price in casualities was even higher, so it isn't much use.

    So far it seems that 3 lines close formation is better: it is less vulnerable (except for missile weapons) and more manoeuvrable than 2 lines close formation.

    However,
    1) The Computer-controlled yari samurai were in 4 lines close formation and prefered to charge in stead of absorbing the charge with hold formation. Since wedge is supposed to be used against hold formation and not against charging troops, I wonder whether my results apply to the practical battlefields: soldiers in hold formation have a lower attack value and also make less attacks upon their opponent then those in engage at will, which is important since wedge gives a penalty to defence.
    2) I did not notice any penetration of the yari line: the two units were always clearly separated after the initial charge. Perhaps this would have happened if the yari samurai stood in hold formation?

    Conclusion
    In these specific circumstances, 3 lines close formation is to be prefered over wegde (even if you switch to close after the charge). But I don't know whether these results have any value on the real battlefield. Can you help me out with this?
    If not, I guess I'll have to find a more complicated test (because that is what scientists do: if it doesn't work, make it more complicated ).
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  17. #77

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    I play Shogun in a very intuitive style, unlike MTW there are few hard and fast rules for best unit usage. Yari are good against cavalry on engage at will and good at taking charges on hold/hold so I use both and they work well on 2, 3 or 4 ranks, unlike in MTW where spears need to be on hold formation 4 ranks permanently for best effect. This means I can't really say how I use the wedge as a hard and fast rule.

    Basically what I do is never charge head on in a wedge - always flank or attack from behind. This reduces your casualties on impact, and causes more damage which allows your wedge to drive into the enemy ranks. Then I switch to close to remove the penalty and get the men at the rear into the fight, switch maybe about 3 seconds after impact. I only use the wedge with no-dachi, monks, arrowless archers (only because I use them for flanking rather than straight up fighting and wedge makes flanking easier to maneuver) or cavalry (not cav archers though) because I don't find it worthwhile with any of the other units.

    Units in a wedge are easier to control when moving for a flank, this makes it easier for you to get into position and then charge with extra damage from a position where you are less likely to lose men. I don't always use wedge when flanking though, just when I feel it may be beneficial. Most often in tight spaces or when I am in a hurry and need the unit to move quickly to an exact point.

    As far as close formation ranks go, well again I go with what I need now. If I need depth to take a charge or defend a small space then I go with 3 or 4. Otherwise I go with 2 and a bit (2 full ranks with a partial third) or 3 full ranks. I just use what I think I need, for example my monks V yari samurai I go with 2 and a bit ranks so I can flank well and have a bit of depth for when the yari lose their formation, my yari V monks I go 3 full ranks to make flanking on me harder but keep bulk so they don't get swept away.

    The only units I have solid deployment rules for in Shogun is guns - always 3 full ranks, on hold/hold. Compare that to MTW where spears are always 4 ranks hold/hold, swords always 2 ranks, axes always 2 ranks, cav always 2 and a bit ranks, blah blah blah

    Well that was probably about as much use as a chocolate tea pot
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  18. #78
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Well that was probably about as much use as a chocolate tea pot
    It certainly was more useful than my rigid attack-is-wedge,-defence-is-hold style of reasoning. Lessons learned:
    -Use wedge formation only for attacking when your opponent will not fight back effectively.
    -Use close formation if there will be a serious resistance. The thickness of your formation should increase with the expected resistance.
    -Most importantly: think flexible. This one is going to be the hardest .

    As always, thank you Frogbeastegg
    Looking for a good read? Visit the Library!

  19. #79

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    Update - added new section on castle sieges. Also fixed error in the end date for the medeival campaign.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  20. #80
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    While you are at it, I have got a few snippets of information for you too.

    1) The valour of a unit (both your own and that of enemies) is shown by the number of small banners the unit is carrying. I have only recently found this out, when someone at the forum pointed it out. It seems to be mentioned nowhere, so I guess the Beginner's guide would be a good place to spread the word. This fact is mentioned by Kristaps in this thread: Valor display on the battlefield..., Those flags actually matter....

    2) In the diplomacy section of the Beginner's guide you say
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Foreign princesses help you to avoid the 'inbred' vices that become common in your royal family if they choose their own brides.
    When browsing through the archive I found something interesting: a post from Kraxis stating that Longjohn had said that marrying foreign princesses does NOT get you better heirs. I asked Kraxis in another discussion if Longjohn had really said this and he confirmed it. I was surprised and looked it up in the manual (UK version). The hints sections says that marrying foreign princesses is useful for getting heirs earlier, but nothing explicit about inbred vices.
    The two threads:
    -Hopeless heirs
    -Hmm... odd about heirs (archive)


    I hope you will find this useful.
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  21. #81

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    Little unit flags.
    I've known that since the shogun battle trainer demo, to be honest I was more than surprised that others didn't know. I shall put it in the guide somewhere.

    Princesses.
    Ok, very old community speculation laid to rest by offical word. Fixing.

    So tired.

    EDIT: Done, with a little picture and everything.



    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  22. #82

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    Small update to the copyright section at the front of the guide.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  23. #83
    Nec Pluribus Impar Member SwordsMaster's Avatar
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    Jus tryed something "new", and as i didnt exactly know where to post it i decided this was a good place as it has to do with reorganization in the battlefield and someone might find it useful...


    This is my experiment:

    5star general (heir,royal knight)

    5 halberds
    3 FMAA
    3 xbows


    Basically its a new way of organizing a battle,specially suited for attacking.

    Instead of grouping your units according to its type (ie all halbs together, etc..),the groups i suggest are more similar to the spanish "tercios" (ie, each group is a perfectly functional mini-army)

    So the above setup ended up as follows:

    group1:
    2halbs,1FMAA,1xbow

    group2:
    2halbs,1FMAA,1xbow

    group3:
    1halb,1FMAA,1xbow

    and the cavs on their own as usual.

    The 2 bigger groups charged from the flanks and the smaller one frontally after harassing the enemy with the xbows.

    The formations i used are:

    XXXXXXXXX
    HHHH SSSS

    for each group where x:xbows,H halberds,s swordmen.
    The ranks for H and S are shorter cause the xbows were in a thinner line.

    The xbows set to skirmish,everyone else to hold formation, so when the enemy rushes after your xbows it gets in the middle of the heavies and is either pinned by the halbs and flanked by FMAAS or the other way around.

    When engaged, flank as usual with the Knights, and charges into the troops opposing the halbs (as they have less attack bonus).The FMAA will cuth their way through...


    This can be used with all "attacking infantry" and all spears/polearms,etc Just make sure they dont rout at firs touch, cause it may take some time as theyre heavily armoured.

    Thats all, anjoy
    Managing perceptions goes hand in hand with managing expectations - Masamune

    Pie is merely the power of the state intruding into the private lives of the working class. - Beirut

  24. #84
    Nur-ad-Din Forum Administrator TosaInu's Avatar
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    Note: from MH.
    Ja mata

    TosaInu

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