Judgment Day

[Gregoshi]

Would you like it closed since your poll is done?

[Quid]

I think I am just a selfish ba***rd. I do good to others simply to have a good life myself; because I would expect some favours returned. I don't believe in 'damnation' nor do I believe in being made 'holy'. I live my life as I would expect others to live theirs. I have been taught moral ethics by my parents and later made up my own. I reckon everybody has got a fair chance to live (on a moral standpoint) and a fair chance to let live. If you muck it up, then you pay the price by not being content with your actions.

I think everybody has some sort of moral 'feeling' inside them and a large majority has been taught what is good and bad. Further I believe that most morality comes from within and is more like an instinct rather than steared by our conscious minds. After all, I believe that we always (def more often than not) do things that are to our advantage in the long run. Hence the selfishness.

Quid

[A.Saturnus]

The concept of altruism breaks down under a intensive analysis anyway.

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (ToranagaSama @ Sep. 16 2003,17:04)]This post is directly inspired by the What are your beliefs thread and is a reflection of The Good the Bad the Ugly Pt. II thread, though composed before.

Regarding, What are your beliefs (please see initial post), its impossible to vote as some questions are contrary in addition to the fact that one can believe in an amalgamation of questions 1, 2 and 3.

I'd like to ask the Atheist and Agnositics a question, if you all would be so kind as to answer, I thank you.

1) If there is no G_d, then, do you have a sense of morality, and what is it based upon and/or where does it come from?

2) Without G_d's morality, commandments and the consequence of Damnation, what then is your motivation for moral action and to live a moral life (presuming the general understanding of morality).

In addition, what would be the motivation for anyone to live a moral life? Wouldn't you agree that in a G_dless world, that anyone can then determine one's own definition of morality and conduct one's life accordingly? Would this NOT then result in a worldstate of .

Given the realities of the above paragraph, and that % isn't appealing, then your Belief and Faith must reside in Government, and particularly, the Law--that is--the Legal System? In effect, from a religious point of view or a G_d view, then your Faith is in your fellow Man. Man who is without Morality or, at best/worst, defines his own, individual, Morality.

[Hmmm...the above might be a good description for Hell, an existence without Morality....hmmmm.]

Damnation is G_d's moral consequence. If one's Faith and Belief is in the Law, the obvious question, then, is where is the Law's moral consequence?

Can Man's Law define morality for all of man? The Law's consequence for immoral actions contrary to the Law is Prison, is it not? Yet, this consequence is escapable in a number and variety of ways; AND the Law's consequence is rendered inequitably. I would argue that this is the state in which we live (anarchanistic). The Law's consequence provides no true motivation toward morality for those, who, are willing and/or are capable of enduring or escaping the Law's consequence. Consquently, there is little or no habor nor ultimate protection for Man.

G_d's consequence, on the other hand, is absolute, inescapable and equitable. It serves as a moral compass and inhibitor to a degree that the Law, Man's Law, can NEVER serve.

Damnation is a strong (individual) motivator. What is the individual motivation for moral action under Man's Law? It can only be a sensical group attempt to forestall some or certain, presumably, accepted and agreed negative consequences to . Yet, if any individual does not cede to the accepted or agreed (or the presumption) then he is morally free to define his morality and conduct his life and actions.

In addition to the individualist nature to morality, there is the group attempt at morality I mention above. The consequences of one group's morality differing from another group's has all too clearly been exhibited inumerably and devestatingly in history, and is, again, being played out on a world stage as I type and you read.

Such is the make of the Hilters of this world. While the Hilter's can be cited as an extreme example of the fallacy's of Man's Law, and are short-lived, the immorality that they've wrought is not, and to a far greater extent are the immoral actions of lesser % s, those who define their own morality. There numbers are greater, there effect is cumulative and there is no Judgment day for them.


---

I also ask, if you believe in the concepts of Good and Evil (this does not have to be defined in a biblical sense, but in whatever worldly sense you prefer, but I ask the question in the generally accepted concept of Good and Evil)?

If there is, in fact, Good and Evil, how can it be defined? Without a *certain* (literal definition) moral base, can Good and/or Evil be defined and known? Doesn't Morality require a certainty.


----


IMHO, I believe that many who are without Faith or Belief, are so, greatly, because of a confusion between G_d and religion. The two are not the same and that's another thread....

I just said that not too long ago

of course they said well you can have morality without religion, it's been proven right.......

[Portuguese Rebel]

Quote[/b] ]In addition to the individualist nature to morality, there is the group attempt at morality I mention above. The consequences of one group's morality differing from another group's has all too clearly been exhibited inumerably and devestatingly in history, and is, again, being played out on a world stage as I type and you read.

Such is the make of the Hilters of this world. While the Hilter's can be cited as an extreme example of the fallacy's of Man's Law, and are short-lived, the immorality that they've wrought is not, and to a far greater extent are the immoral actions of lesser Hitlers, those who define their own morality. There numbers are greater, there effect is cumulative and there is no Judgment day for them.

Hmmm the you are an immoral atheist accusation. I was wondering when this would come up. How many atheists nuts are blowing people away as we speak? How many moral religious people are doing so.

Plus, Hitler used an enourmous amount of religious quotes to justify his stand. Hitler was not atheist, as many good chrsitians say. I find this more or less association of atheists with Hitler to be rather insulting, and could easily brought up more christian butchers to line up after Hitler but i won't.

Quote[/b] ]I just said that not too long ago

of course they said well you can have morality without religion, it's been proven right.......

I have a moral of my own. You don't see me running around killing people and sutch. Yet i'm an atheist. So it is possible to have morals without religion. What is so hard to understand about this?

All the atheists i know are moral people. Many religious ones are not.

[Sigurd]

Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Sep. 23 2003,17:05)]Would you like it closed since your poll is done?

Ouch.. a ‘light’ stab with the sarcasm knife...
I was merely commenting on “Bumping” this thread.

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (Portuguese Rebel @ Sep. 23 2003,08:42)]I just said that not too long ago

of course they said well you can have morality without religion, it's been proven right.......

I have a moral of my own. You don't see me running around people and sutch. Yet i'm an atheist. So it is possible to have morals without religion. What is so hard to understand about this?

All the atheists i know are moral people. Many religious ones are not.

but what are the origins of your morality?

In Judeo-Christian values right?

so there you go, society could not have ever funcitoned without religion

[Portuguese Rebel]

Quote[/b] ]but what are the origins of your morality?

In Judeo-Christian values right?

so there you go, society could not have ever funcitoned without religion

No dude, not by a long shot. I have sex with my girlfriend and i treat her as my equal. If i had judeo-christian values i would first get married, then have sex and then treat her like another household prop made from one of my ribs

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]so there you go, society could not have ever funcitoned without religion

children eventually learn to walk by themselves, humanity will do the same, and leave religions behind.

as to when?
your guess is as good as mine

[Parmenio]

Humanity as gods? is almost a self contradiction.

‘Humans as gods’ has some precedent though. The divine right of monarchs, the god emperors, and others deified in their own lifetimes or afterwards and worshiped in all seriousness by populations, shows that this is not an unlikely phenomena.

‘Humanity as god-like’ on the other hand is perhaps just a relative term. Before the end of this century technology will possibly advance to the point where god-like attributes will be in the grasp of the powerful, and by their own ambition they will be unlikely to deny themselves it.

Chemical, surgical and mechanical augmentation already exists today without anyone thinking much of it, and perform enhancements ranging from greater functionality for the disabled, improved mental balance and physical health, to self esteem boosting cosmetic procedures.

Further steps seem likely, and though I doubt our descendants will believe themselves gods, their definition of ‘Humanity’ will not necessarily be ours, likewise their belief systems and morality.

[Gregoshi]

Quote[/b] (Sigurd Fafnesbane @ Sep. 23 2003,08:52)]Ouch.. a ‘light’ stab with the sarcasm knife...
I was merely commenting on “Bumping” this thread.

Fair enough Sigurd. After all the reading I did last night I'd have missed a big swing with a sarcasm machette. This topic still seems to have the legs to go on for a bit yet.

[Portuguese Rebel]

I think uncle Greg is pissed due to all the phylosophical/religious post he has to read now

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (Portuguese Rebel @ Sep. 23 2003,09:32)]

Quote[/b] ]but what are the origins of your morality?

In Judeo-Christian values right?

so there you go, society could not have ever funcitoned without religion

No dude, not by a long shot. I with my friend and i treat her as my equal. If i had judeo-christian values i would first get married, then and then treat her like another household prop made from one of my ribs

you may not obey strictly the judeo-christian values, but most of your main sociological moral codes are based on Judeo-Christian values, based on the ten commandments

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]based on the ten commandments

and just how many christians follow them?

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (katar @ Sep. 23 2003,12:27)]

Quote[/b] ]based on the ten commandments

and just how many christians follow them?

many try to the best of their human ability to follow the laws of their faith, and I would think that would command a little more respect from you folks....

[Parmenio]

Quote[/b] ]
you may not obey strictly the judeo-christian values, but most of your main sociological moral codes are based on Judeo-Christian values, based on the ten commandments

The ten commandments were certainly well crafted. I would expect nothing less from an educated Egyptian prince.

[Dragon2003]

Quote[/b] (katar @ Sep. 16 2003,17:47)]p.s. why do you spell God as G_d ?

I have noticed ( i think i have neway ) that this question has not been answered. The reason is that some religions call G_d the 'big G' and loads of other things as they belive that they should not speak G_d's real name.

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]try

i wasn`t aware that you were allowed anything less that ten out of ten.

Quote[/b] ]call G_d the 'big G'

even if you put the o back in G_d, that would still not be it`s real name, only a human label for it.

[Portuguese Rebel]

The ten commandments are basic humanitary values. And religion is all about trying to make a society in wich it is possible to live. In religion this is achieved by threats and promises of rewards.

An atheist derives his moral code from ethics. Basically, our fredoom goes until the next guy's freedom begins. We act according to our moral not because we were threaten into it (or promised great rewards) but because we freely choose to do so. The principles pointed out in the ten commandments were around before Moses. the egyptians had codes of conduct too. In fact, in almost any society there is some sort of modified #ten commandments. Sometimes very modified, since some societies have open marriages wich invalidates at least one of the commandments.

Before judaism and christianism people did not went killing as they pleased. In any human organization there are rules that try to keep you from getting harmed. The ten commandments are an ancient and quite simple code of law, and an admirable one, except for the first three. I would be happier with the last seven. The first three are basically saying i'm THE ONE believe and don't question...

[Sigurd]

I always thought the ten commandments was a result of the Jews’ inability to live the “real law” which Moses initially brought down from the mountain of the Lord, and which he destroyed with a sweep of the hand.

[Drucius]

I don't need god to tell me what to do, how to act, how to think. I've got my wife for that.

[Portuguese Rebel]

Quote[/b] (Sigurd Fafnesbane @ Sep. 23 2003,21:08)]I always thought the ten commandments was a result of the Jews’ inability to live the “real law” which Moses initially brought down from the mountain of the Lord, and which he destroyed with a sweep of the hand.

Hehehe, perhaps there were more commandments and they forgot a few on the way...

Quote[/b] ]I don't need god to tell me what to do, how to act, how to think. I've got my wife for that.

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (Portuguese Rebel @ Sep. 23 2003,16:47)]The ten commandments are basic humanitary values. And religion is all about trying to make a society in wich it is possible to live. In religion this is achieved by threats and promises of rewards.

An atheist derives his moral code from ethics. Basically, our fredoom goes until the next guy's freedom begins. We act according to our moral not because we were threaten into it (or promised great rewards) but because we freely choose to do so. The principles pointed out in the ten commandments were around before Moses. the egyptians had codes of conduct too. In fact, in almost any society there is some sort of modified #ten commandments. Sometimes very modified, since some societies have open marriages wich invalidates at least one of the commandments.

Before judaism and christianism people did not went as they pleased. In any human organization there are rules that try to keep you from getting harmed. The ten commandments are an ancient and quite simple code of law, and an admirable one, except for the first three. I would be happier with the last seven. The first three are basically saying i'm THE ONE believe and don't question...

ah, but where did your ethics originate?

The ten commandments are not basic human values because no one else in the world at that time had the same ethical values as the Jews did

And even the values that other peoples had were based on their religious beliefs, and not maturation of their societies.

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]Hehehe, perhaps there were more commandments and they forgot a few on the way...

no, the original offer was buy ten, get one free

but they thought they had enough on their plate with the first selection

[squippy]

Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ Sep. 24 2003,08:26)]

Quote[/b] ] The ten commandments are not basic human values because no one else in the world at that time had the same ethical values as the Jews did

Eh? Are you claiming that absoluetley nobody ever though these things before they were divinely revealed? Thats just silly, I'm afraid.

The Lex Talionis, for example, is not exactly rthe same ethics, but certainly shows AN ethical system, codified and socially established.

Quote[/b] ] And even the values that other peoples had were based on their religious beliefs, and not maturation of their societies.

Wrong, becuase changing religious mores IS maturatiojn of culture.

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]Lex Talionis

not familiar with the name, any info?

[mandt]

Quote[/b] (katar @ Sep. 23 2003,12:27)]

Quote[/b] ]based on the ten commandments

and just how many christians follow them?

I follow some of them. When I can.

[mandt]

[quote=squippy,Sep. 24 2003,09:43][quote=Teutonic Knight,Sep. 24 2003,08:26]

And even the values that other peoples had were based on their religious beliefs, and not maturation of their societies.

Quote[/b] ]
Wrong, becuase changing religious mores IS maturatiojn of culture..

You misquoted him squippy. He said societies, not culture. These are quite different.

Also, rather than maturation I would say evolution, since maturation implies a qualitative improvement, which may not be the case.

Further, rather than saying that religious mores is, I think it would be more accurate to say that religion is part of, or plays a role in the evolution of culture.

All this considered, I agree pretty much with both of these statements.

[A.Saturnus]

It`s quite a claim to say that our ethical code is Judaic. You find some parts of humanism in Judaism, but others developed against it. And others can be found in other cultures. Freedom of belief for example was non existent in ancient Judaism. In the Hatti-empire on the other hand it was extended to a level that is uncommon in many societies today. No single culture can claim to have produced humanism.
And BTW, it`s irrelevant. Even if atheists would follow exactly the same rules as some theists before them, what matters is the way they justify their ethics. And the atheists` point is that humanism can be justified without assumptions of the divine. The fact that we use a time scale that dates on a religious event (more or less), doesn`t make our society any more theistic. The same counts for the supposed origin of our morality.

[Teutonic Knight]

yes, but my point is that secular wonderlands didn't devise the ethical codes that we follow today, and furthermore I think that religion is necessary to keep these values in place.

All I was trying to say was that religion always has and always will have an important role in society, whether you believe in God(s) or not....