Naginata

[TosaInu]

Konnichiwa,



A section from the painted screen depicting the Winter Campaign of Osaka (26 november 1614).
http://www.totalwar.org/maps/images/Nag4.gif (detail)


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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net

[This message has been edited by TosaInu (edited 12-26-2001).]

[Ryuzoji Shingen]

Why ludicrous.. well I don't know really. I was sick and not in a good mood. Sry.

You said, however, that you would roll back with your wrist. I thought about that, and instantly discounted it though 'cause it would leave one open to an attack. It is possible, but I just don't like it. The best way to do it is swing forward in a slash and bring it back as rapidly as possible. Hope that answers that.

Oyumis were not used really in a shoulder-mounted form. It was actually a large siege device (There aere forms of the small stuff, but it was very uncommon), similar to the Roman ballista, but firing many small bolts instead of the ballista's 1 big arrow.

I am wondering as to proper use of a spear. The nagae-yari and mochi-yari of the time were a bit to big for clost fighting, at least it seems. If anybody knows how they were used properly. (I don't want the stab in, take out. There were moves.)

Thanks a lot, and enjoy the new year!

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For the Samurai to Learn
There is only one thing
One last thing-
To face death unflinchingly

Tsukahara Bokuden

[Totalize1]

Quote:
"The only contemporary references to naginata on horseback are a couple of individual figures in 14th Century picture scrolls (eg the 'Illustrated Scrolls of the Taiheiki'). They are also carrying quivers of arrows which indicates they are horse archers that have swopped weapons with a foot attendant".

So naginata was used from horseback?
Unquote

Yes, in the 14th Century it would seem so. But the only evidence is for a couple of 'heroic' individual warriors. Not whole units.

"If hand-held crossbows were ever used they would be mentioned in chronicles or illustrated in picture scrolls - like the famous 'Mongol Invasion Scroll'".

Quote:
I didn't say that crossbows were used during the mongol invasion. The o-yumi wasn't used anymore 'at all' in 1180. The mongol invasion started only in 1274.

After 684 till about the 10th century conscript armies (heishi) were used. That was the period the o-yumi was used on the battlefield (also as siege weapon).

There are quite different statements about what this weapon looked like, so it might well be that there are different types. There's a source that speaks about 'arrows falling like rain' and 'even tens of thousands of barbarians' (the original native inhabitants of Japan!) ' cannot bear up to the arrows of one machine'.

While the latter thing is probably quite exaggerted, this indicates a machine like the chinese repeating crossbow (said to be invented by the Chinese in the 1st century). A repeating crossbow seems to me like a weapon that can be operated by 'anyone' after a brief training.

I think that's not very likely, rather quite unlikely, that you'ld find any Japanese using a crossbow during the mongol invasion.
Unquote

Humble apologies. I read what I wrote again and it came across quite unlike how I intended. Of course, you are right about the conjecture surrounding the 'Japanese crossbow' or o-yumi. The 'Mutsu Waki' chronicle is one of those that talks of crossbows that fired 'arrows and stones that flew like rain'. One of the foremost Japanese historians that has researched such things is Sasama. He has produced a number of conjectural sketches of what these artillery pieces may have looked like. Karl Friday's 'Hired Swords' has one on pg 43. Turnbull's article in 'Military Illustrated' magazine (no.125) has two more which are actually bow-propelled catapults firing stones (note the ref to stone-throwers in the 'Mutsu-waki'). The strange thing, of course, is that these weapons died out and no reference appears during the 'private army' samurai period. Karl Friday ('Hired Swords') gives a reason:
'As redoubtable a weapon as the o-yumi seems to have been, it was also a very complex machine to operate. This, in fact, appears to have been its undoing. Between 814 and 910, the court received requests for o-yumi instructors from a full 17 provinces. All had the same complaint: regrettably, the weapons in their armories were going to waste because no-one knew how to use them. In his memeorial of 914, Miyoshi Kiyotsura went further, complaining of the incompetence of even the teachers:
At the time of their appointments, those named do not yet even know of the existence of the weapon called the o-yumi, still less how to use the springs and bowsprings. Although the realm is now at peace and we fear nothing from any direction, we must every day be cautious, never forgetting danger. For, however unlikely, what if there should come some invading neighbors who challenge us with death? The weapon has become empty nostalgia; who can use it (in our defense)?'

Regards,
Totalize

[borisus16]

From what I know the Naginata is a great weapon,and i would prefer to hold a Naginata then a Katana while fighting a horde of battle raging Samurai(fotunatly I don't have-to).

About the use of Naginata from horse-back:
You forget that ALL weapons had many VERSIONS,including the Naginata.
I read that a VERSION of the Naginata was used in China,it was about 2-3 meters long and had a shorter but wider blade,this thing
was very heavy(about 20 kilos),and was used only on horse-back.
In the picture that you see when you want to buy a NC unit(i don't have MI\WE,but i saw this picture on some sites)you can see that the Naginata that those Samurai hold is longer and difrent from the NI version.

hope this helps.

[Yagyu Jubei]

Here is a good site if you speak french! If not just go to the photo album

http://www.multimania.com/naginata/

[This message has been edited by Yagyu Jubei (edited 12-27-2001).]

[Grim]

the link is in both language. There is a "english page" function at the bottom of the yellow half-page on the left end.

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"Je vous repondrai par la bouche de mes canons"
-Frontenac
(I will answer you with the blast of my canons)
-Trad. libre

[Shimazu2]

well nags rule... period!

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Honour to the Naginata!
Death to the Peasant Horde!
So shall be peace...

-Shimazu2

Quote Originally posted by Shimazu2:
well nags rule... period!

[/QUOTE]

A nag replaced his brains.

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Honour to Clan Kenchikuka.
I'm from Malta, but I'm not a Malteser.
Visit my resource site here!

[BSM_Skkzarg]

To determine the functionality of a weapon when used from horseback, one must understand the weapon itself, and thus the benefits and dangers of its use in the stated manner. In this case, the Naginata, we are dealing with a far eastern polearm similiar, but not equivilant to, a European hafted blade. For the sake of this discussion, we will refer back to the earlier description, a hafted weapon of up to 7 feet with blade attached, designed for slashing rather than the forward/back action of the stab. The Naginata was designed initially for the foot combatant, giving them superior reach and power compared to a foe armed with a "normal" or "common" blade, such as a Katana. The Nagi itself differs from European polearms in that it has no groove or catch with which to latch onto a passing horseman so as to unseat him. European hafted blades, such as halberds, were designed to allow such an action, in addition to the ability to "set" the weapon like a spear to impale a charging horseman. The European version of the polearm was arguably more versatile due to this.

However, the Nagi armed footman was not helpless against cavalry, as the reach of their weapon gave them excellent chances to slash when facing a charge, and the reach of the weapon meant that with proper timing, the slash could be executed without being hit by the charging foe. It is safe to say that the Spear was a more formidable weapon against horsemen in a massed situation. However, one on one the Nagi gave more flexibility.

Moving onward to the Nagi's conversion to horsback usage, one must consider that this is only natural. One often overlooked axiom of warfare is that the most dangerous foe of a weapon (or platform) is often its exact counterpart. As a modern illustration - I refer to submarines. Now, that being established, consider the horsemen of the age, having seen their comrades cut down with this weapon. They begin to see that its reach allows the footman to stay outside their effective weapons range during a high-speed charge, yet they are inside the circle of the footman's weapon. To counter this, they begin weilding the Nagi themselves. Of course, they must make allowances for its heft and balance, but are compensated by the increase in pure force given to the weapon by its speed, relative to the target. Now, consider yourself the horseman for a moment. Your katana is of little use against these pole infantry, as you cannot get close enough to use it. The naginata has the reach, but its balance dictates a different attack style than you normally use.
We know that nagi was used - although maybe not in a very common manner. So - the question is not if, but HOW. Applying some common sense, one has to say that it is unlikely that the nagi was used in a very "active" way. In other words, it is unlikely that the weilder on horseback was waving it around his head and performing slashing cuts while riding into a line at high speed. During the initial charge, balance would dictate that the nagi be weilded so that the action of the charge itself would create the slashing motion. To accomplish this, the nagi would need to be "set" in a manner similiar to a lance, with the blade positioned so that it could slice a footman at a distance. Now, in a single pass, the weapon would need to be held so that it did not rotate entirely out of the weilders hand, nor unbalance him during the pass. Should the charge be stopped and the rider be forced to fight from a stationary position, the weapon would transition to an arcing slash, wielded likely in an above the head action that would bring the blade downward in a blow to the head or shoulder area, allowing for immediate infliction of a fatal wound - gutted cranium or sliced off extremity. From the height wielded, the Nagi would allow the rider to have a chance of keeping spear and nagi infantry at bay so that he could extricate himself from the "gridlock" that halted the charge. Due to the weight of the nagi - it is feasible that it was used to "chop" thru the hafts of spears or other hafted weapons the rider faced. Disarming your opponent is nearly as effective as killing him - and in some cases is MORE effective, as he is now unarmed, but blocking some of his comrades.

One however must recall that cavalry was not, as pictured in Shogun, a charge and stop to fight type of unit. Its purpose was to ride into and through a unit, not to stop and engage in combat. Shogun cavalry stops and fights, contrary to the intended purpose. A cavalryman would never CHOOSE to stop and fight, as this took away his most valuable advantage - speed.

The nagi could be used in a myriad of ways, but to understand how it is used in various situations, one must place yourself in that spot. Improper use of a weapon would get you killed, and thus your foolish death would only serve to teach your comrades.
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Shimazu2]

ah your just jealous tera... at least i have something in my gord

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Honour to the Naginata!
Death to the Peasant Horde!
So shall be peace...

-Shimazu2

[Katasaki Hirojima]

Well, heres a lil more proof that they used Naginata from horseback - In the Movie Princess Mononoke, which was made by the japanese themselfs, there were naginata.

In several scenes you see Samurai on horseback weilding a variation of the PersonallyNaginata, which had a longer shaft and shorter blade then what the monks and NI used. It was almost like a Yari that chould slash and stab. This and there were quite a few cavalry archers too, includeing the hero of the movie himself.

Personally I'd much rather use Bow and sword from horseback. Pelt the spearman with arrows and ride down any man with a lesser weapon.

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[Yagyu Jubei]

AS to the size of the Naginata....
The main way that they are sized NOW is just about eye level. Meaning that is where the blade would start. I would imagine that it very similar to the way that they used to size them as well.
The bottom hand is held so that the length of the pole comes out to the elbow. This makes for a very secure grip when anchored against the body.
Keep up the discussion fellas!

[Shimazu2]

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Honour to the Naginata!
Death to the Peasant Horde!
So shall be peace...

-Shimazu2

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Yagyu - no matter what a women tells u - in this case - size DOES matter... LOL
Seriously though, I agree - they would need to have some decent size, as one attribute was their ability to slice THRU an opponents defense - be it active parry or metal helm/hauberk. Thus size was needed to give weight and force.

Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[BSM_Skkzarg]

BUMP!

This is a bump - just because I love Naginata!!!!
ROFL!
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Yagyu Jubei]

Ok fellas here ya go!!!!
Take this link to the Kendo world Mag... Go to the page called GOODIES...then hit the link called
Isshu Jiai....
this is a battle between Naginata and Kendo in Microsoft Movie format....It was shot at the Kyoto Taikai last year...I was lucky enough to have been there! You will see some good shots made by each contestant. The Naginata is weilded by a woman and the shinai by a man.... Notice the great thrusting shots to the throat by the naginata...but still the kendoka manages to close the distance and get some nice whacks to her head!
Enjoy! http://www.kendo-world.com/index.htm

ps.... let me know what you think...

[This message has been edited by Yagyu Jubei (edited 01-10-2002).]

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Well... interesting to say the least.
First, a few "uneducated" observations. The speed with which the "nagi" was used - seems to indicate a much lighter weapon than history indicates. In fact, a couple of blocked attempts by the gentleman show that the weapon lacks the "advertised" ability to go THRU a parry. Not only was the gentleman able to parry the blow, but also to knock the nagi out of position and use his weapon to strike. My personal opinion on this is your seeing more of a "single blade spear" than a true Nagi. The "throat thrusts" are another issue - that is the type of manuever that one would use with a spear type weapon, a thrust and recall. A true Nagi was/is a slashing weapon, ill suited for a straight thrust attack due to its weight.

Second, take a close look at each strike or attempt by the lady, you will notice that, on average, her hands consistently slide UPward - toward the "blade", reducing the reach of the weapon. A couple of times you can easily note a solid 18" to 24" portion of the haft unused. This allows her opponent, using the full reach of his weapon, to gain solid strikes on her. Credit her opponent for his skill in using such opportunities. The unused portion may be there for a reason in this lady's case, such as training or as an attempt to possibly reverse the weapon. However, we don't see any such reversal, nor is this weapon, or a Nagi, suitable for such a maneuver. Like any knife, having the blade face you rather than your opponent is a bad idea. Again, personal view is a failure to use good form. The strikes you do see her opponent scored are MOSTLY (but not all) done at his extreme reach - had she used the extra length of her weapon, she could have kept the majority of touches to a minimum.

Now - for the record - it is alot easier to sit here and critique a movie file like this than it is to actually do what I propose as correct.... I would not dare to say I could do better - because to be honest - that ole girl woulda whipped my tail danged quick! But, on observation - it seems that there are some things to be considered - and learned, both by the watcher, and the participant.

Qapla!



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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Yagyu Jubei]

Nice observations m8..... Lets see..
First of all, to be invited to participate in this particular event I believe you must be at least 7th degree black belt in your art. So these two are indeed masters.
AS to the speed of the weapon. We must remember that this is only Japanese Oak with a Bamboo blade. No steel at all. Hence the weight and speed differance.
As to the thrusts...They are a part of the Naginata techniques! Just as a Katana is a slashing weapon, thrusts still do the trick. Same with the Naginata. In fact they are particularly devastating due to the mind set that one is looking for a slash movement vs a thrust.
The Kendoka was indeed doing his best to get "inside" the naginata. This is why she "choked up" on the weapon. In these arts it is nearly impossible to get a point while moving backwards. So the only other way is to "choke up". If you look at the last movie on the page you will see a similar thing happen in the All Japan Kendo Championship match. The victor blocks an attack to the head and follows up with an attack at the midsection. He only uses one hand in this attack which makes the distance correct to score the point.
The way that these weapons, meaning katana and Naginata blades, were/are made is quite differant from western blades. There are differant grades of steel. The cutting section being extremely sharp yet also brittle, and the back of the blade being softer. Because of this "parrying" is very differant than western. In so many movies you see people hacking at each others swords. In Japan these blocks and parries would leave the warrior with a broken blade in seconds. It is much more re-direction than actual blocking.
I wish that she had used more techniques than she did. As there are a lot of things that we don't get to see. I have subscribed to the magazine and it is supposed to have many more movies come with it on disc. I will do my best to let you all see them.
I hope this helps in looking this movie over and seeing more light on the subject of the mighty Naginata!