Arm balance for 10K games

[Puzz3D]

Quote[/b] (Mithrandir @ Jan. 27 2004,08:08)]Tying up units is usually only a matter of seconds in which you maouvrer your extra units (the number which you are holding with spears-1) behind the units engaged with the spears

What extra units? You don't get more units than your opponent. While an enemy sword is beating up your spear, another enemy sword counters your flanking unit. Your tactic will work against a less skiller player. However, against an equal skilled player who purchaced the usual cav/sword thing, you already lost when you showed up with that spear. Skilled players don't send two units at a spear when one will do the job.


Tempiic,

If you are going to backup your spear with a javelin unit, then I'm the one with the extra flanking unit. I just have to be careful that I don't loose in the center before I win on the flank. Once again, you can win with a stat inferior army if you outplay your opponent. So what do you do against a top level player who takes a stat optimized army? This is what most top level players are doing now.

[Mithrandir]

yuuki, you dont always have the time to send one unit to counter spears, I've often caught "vets" by suprise as well, if they attack me (won shoot-out), they have already designated a unit to attack or just pushed their entire line my way, If I spread uot 3 spears in a line, they'll wont have the time to react inmediately.

anyway, we've come to a stalemate.

Like I said in my previous post, this often works for me, it may not be the same for you.

[Puzz3D]

Mithrandir,

I've used spears in something like 2000 online battles over the past year, and they gradually lost effectiveness over that period of time as more and more players moved to the sword/poleaxe based armies. I recently stopped using all types of anti-cav bonus inf in 10k games, and my win percentage immediately increased. The anti-cav bonus is priced too high. The loss of the anti-cav componet is something I resisted by continuing to use spears for a long time, but the trend is clear: a player is not competitive at the highest level if he fields spears imo. You can use one or two as a specialty unit, but that's about it. I don't think they work as a main frontline unit. I do still use spears in 10k when I feel the opponents are not going to use that stat optimized cav/sword/poleaxe thing or when I think I have a chance of outplaying my opponent. I'm glad you have spears working for you because battles are more interesting with them in it.

[t1master]

v2 spears work good in viking era, but all units in viking era get a morale boost no?

how are the larger unit games going yuuki? i am curious to know your thoughts on those, does adding 30 additional spearmen make them last longer, or do they die faster cause the swords have more men too?

i like a unit or two of kerns to harrass enemy armored troops, but i'm not playing to win anymore...

[Puzz3D]

Don't know because there is resistance to playing with medium size units, and I haven't gotten to try it yet.

[Brutal DLX]

I used to play medium size units in SP for a while, and when I started to play MP, I quickly realised the importance of the number of men in a given unit.
In my opinion, there is no proportional transition of unit usefulness, units behave a bit differently, and I think spears and the former 40 men units get stronger compared to the former 60 men ones. On medium, the unit sizes are 53, 80 and 133, IIRC.

[Orda Khan]

Seems to me it doesn't matter what the florin level, the game is flawed....

Drop this game for what it is...Second rate

If it's balance you want, install CBR's Community Mod

Yeh I can just see the masses heading to download

......Orda

[Mithrandir]

Is it possible to install and uninstall without having to remove the entire game ?

if that's the case I'll give it a shot :).

[Puzz3D]

Yes. The CBR mod just installs three additional eras, early+, high+ and late+. All the origial eras are still there, and no stat swapping is required to play the new eras. It's designed for 10k to 11k florin level.

[Nigel]

hmm, do you mean to say that when you install that mod, you can still play MP with people who do not have it ?

For that IMHO is the main hurdle for mods. People thinking: "well, if I install it, I can only play ppl who also have it, of which there are maybe only a few around (in my timezone anyway), and I dont want to limit myself to those few numbers of potential opponents". For me anyway, if I could still play everyone else, that would make it an easy decision to go and get the mod.

[Orda Khan]

Nigel..
I believe you are still playing MTW v1.1? This Mod is designed for VI v2.01. Using Mods on VI is a dream...because you don't have to swap stats ( does not apply to Napoleonic Mod, due to projectile stats )

At the moment, I have CBR's Mod, STW for VI Mod and OH/VI Mod all on the same install. The only time you need worry is when hosting....
" Do enough people have this Mod? "
As for joining battles you would have more options. It really is that simple and it's such a shame because some are much better than the actual game. Balance wise I can't stress enough how good CBR's Mod is. 11k is the designated level and things like cost prevent stupid upgrade imbalances. No more pumped up units, basically if you spend 11k and have 16 units at v0 you are ok

........Orda

Oh btw there is an uninstaller with it too

[Nigel]

Sound great, Orda.

I am actually planning to install VI this weekend.
About time I get my nose bruised by some real veterans.


If modding is that easy, then really all it needs is the community to agree on a suitable set of stats. Ohh, I know, that's probably where the real discussions and arguments will start . Well, I guess that's what we are here for.

[Mithrandir]

Ok, I'm looking for the file now and install it asap

If I like the play I'll make an advertisement for it on the mainpage

[Mithrandir]

Can someone please give me a direct link ?

[Ja'chyra]

Mithrandir when you do the link can you make it clear that you can still play normal VI games as I thought as soon as you modded you could only play with that mod and that is probably what is stopping people trying them.

Thanks

[Orda Khan]

Hello Mith
http://www.mizus.com/hosted/CBR/CommunityModBeta3.exe

Hope this helps

...Orda

[BomilkarDate]

Most guys that are complaining about the "swordprob" are vets. I always hated the english rush armies and to me it was a challenge to beat them with armies using spears, cavarc, hybrid archers, halberds, footknights, or byz without barney (8+ shooters).
Of course I lost more games than I would have lost with a cav sword army, but I didn't care. I had my fun in playing and I started to know the other units better. They might not have a chance statwise, but many of the players online do not even know their potencial strong points. So many people do not know how to face "weird" armies.

Use fast manoevering wings with cav arc, coordinate fast cav charges vs. enemy pavs, encircle the enemy, change your battle line when the enemy starts charging, use wedges and hold formation commands. Just try to have fun and live the adventurous nature of the game in clicking spots of the screen, where your mouse never clicked before.
If you loose, blame it on your whimpy General (Sir John of Runaway or Nikanor Kowardopopolus) or deserteurs withing your troops. If you win, enjoy the victory. In both cases get a drink and check the replays to find ways how to use your troops more effectively. As you are vets, you know how to do that.

I did not play this game for about 3 months an when I finally came back 2 weeks ago, I just was sure that I was not going to continue playing the - in my eyes - boring cav sword armies.
I often do loose against skilled players, but Hey thats not much of a change And lots of my online buddies started using creative armies. Some of my best MTW/VI games were with Glor doing weirdo things, a series of Egypt vs Turks games with Kanuni and many many fast paced teambattles with my ELITE Clanmates. Not to forget the dozens of my Byz non Barney games with about 10 shooters.

Not everyone will like to play that way, but give it a try and you will see that other people do it too. Use weak fun troops and it will improve your gameplay. Play weird armies (commanded by Ibrahim the Insane) and you will see that that your crazyness (w)ill influence your opponents. Let the madness spread

That much

Bom

[Cheetah]

Early era 2 max seems to be fine with me.

Also, has anyone tried viking era with the 2 max rule?

PS. will give a try to the CBR mod. I agree that it should be advertised a lot more.

[Tempiic]

I'd love to get in touch with you Bomilkar... and exchange ideas, notes and replays...

For almost a year I have been trying to play similiar to this which started by figuring out how turks really work... In time, I noticed I could not perform wthat ell if I did not have some core of foot hybrids to such an extent that nowadays I quite regularly field armies of which only 2 units do not carry a bow... Now, something funny happened... Nowadays I do not loose as much with these kind of armies as I currently do with the standard sword-heavy cav mix...

[Rowan11088]

Perhaps I'm arguing a lost cause here, but I still believe cav can reliably beat swords for the same price. I just did a test on custom battle, early, me as novgorod vs. spanish. I gave myself a valor 3, weap 1, armor 1 druzhina cav unit, and a valor 2 weap 3 light steppe cav unit, costing slightly less than my opponent's valor 4, I think weap 2 feudal foot knights. I charged my Druzhina's in frontally, which did do some damage due to armor piercing and druzhina cav's size, but what really clinched it was the steppe cav rear attack. I ended up winning by a very large amount...why can't this kind of thing work in MP? For every pumped up sword of your opponent, bring two cav. I think Druzhina are perfect anti-inf. counter, because of the armor piercing and larger numbers, but I think anything halfway decent should work. Even one cav will be fine if you have other good holding units. Doesn't this seem to make sense, even coming from a n00b to the MP portion of the game?

[Kongamato]

You will very rarely see units of the upgrades you mentioned in a 10k game, which is what weve been talking about. Most often you will face 60-man infantry units priced between 700-1200 florins and cavalry between 400-800 florins. In these situations, infantry can inflict great damage to cavalry that charges it frontally after the charge. The cavalry usually gets surrounded on three sides, double-teamed, pushed back, and usually routed. Also, you'll have to get to the enemy's flank in order to charge the rear, and that is easier said than done. It is almost a given that rear charges with cavalry work, but you need to get around to the flanks somehow, and waiting for you there will be the enemy's cavalry or a spear/AP unit that will stall/kill your cavalry. Even if your cavalry wins on the flanks, a strong line will still break through your center.

[Mithrandir]

hte thing that won it for you is the 2 units vs 1,
Also as mentioned above, those upgrades are not suitable online, way too expensive.

if you have 2 units vs 1, the difference in strength has to be hugfe to lose, since unit getting flanked get both a morale penalty& less fight points.

[Cheetah]

Rowan, always buy valor first, buy armour/weapon only if you have leftover money.

[Rowan11088]

Well the point I was trying to make is that the cavalry can win for less florins. I'm not saying cavalry can frontally charge any sword unit and win, but the point is to try to use flanking as much as possible. If people spend 1000 to 1200 florins on a single unit in a 10k game, you can easily bring 2 cav for the same amount as that unit alone, which can take it out. If there's cav waiting for you behind, then you must still be winning because their lines are much smaller than yours. But since everyone seems to think it won't work in real life I'll accept that.

[Mithrandir]

Quote[/b] (Rowan11088 @ Feb. 02 2004,10:19)] If people spend 1000 to 1200 florins on a single unit in a 10k game, you can easily bring 2 cav for the same amount as that unit alone, which can take it out. .

You cant cause you're limited to 16 units.

If there would be reinforcements online, it might work like that.

[Nigel]

Not saying that I dislike your idea, Rowan11088, but it is propbably fair enough that it does not translate into real life. In my mind it does not seem right that a cav unit(s) costs less than the equivalent sword unit and can still beat it. But maybe I am overlooking something here.


On a side note :
Would'nt it be nice if reinforcement management could be included in online battles ? In SP I always enjoy that aspect a lot and it could not be all that hard to implement. Just a thought.

[Brutal DLX]

I don't think it would make much sense, newly arriving units would probably be caught in the rout or just swept away. Normally there's not enough time to assemble your fresh units and throw them into battle as when you're losing, the enemy will chase your units off of the map and thus be close to your staging area.

[Mithrandir]

I mentioned this idea few months back,
it's possible if the red zones would be bigger, red zones for enemies only.

there's already an online reinforcement system, with castle battles :).

[Tempiic]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Jan. 27 2004,17:25)]Tempiic,

If you are going to backup your spear with a javelin unit, then I'm the one with the extra flanking unit. I just have to be careful that I don't loose in the center before I win on the flank. Once again, you can win with a stat inferior army if you outplay your opponent. So what do you do against a top level player who takes a stat optimized army? This is what most top level players are doing now.

Sorry I missed that...

You are right in a way Yuuki... However one javelin unit costs roughly 280 florins.. though it will give you a local disadvantage there as your opponent may have an additional sword unit there instead of the javelin unit, since you have one very cheap unit, you might be able to use val 4 mil sarges against val 3 ones... depending on the rest of your army.. which creates a local advantage for you somewhere else...

It does take some micromanagment from your opponent to deal with it, as one sword unit needs to avoid that spear unit to deal with that javelin unit the right way.. and as such yes, if it was a 1v1 game you'd have little chance... unless it was a 5-6k game perhaps a 8k one too... or unless you outplay your opponent... But I am not a 1v1 player, and I tend to play 3v3's and 4v4's most of the time... And one of the things I noticed in such games is that single unit vs unit comparisions matters not that much... as it is all about creating local superiorities... and cancelling out opposing units there where you have not gained them by for example distracting or delaying them... Having more superior units in total only matters when they can be used at the same location against the opposing players. Otherwise you may find yourself being overrun one group at a time due to having local disadvantages all the time... despite your side having more 'elite' units.

[Puzz3D]

Quote[/b] (Tempiic @ Feb. 03 2004,10:35)]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Jan. 27 2004,17:25)]Tempiic,

If you are going to backup your spear with a javelin unit, then I'm the one with the extra flanking unit. I just have to be careful that I don't loose in the center before I win on the flank. Once again, you can win with a stat inferior army if you outplay your opponent. So what do you do against a top level player who takes a stat optimized army? This is what most top level players are doing now.

Sorry I missed that...

You are right in a way Yuuki... However one javelin unit costs roughly 280 florins.. though it will give you a local disadvantage there as your opponent may have an additional sword unit there instead of the javelin unit, since you have one very cheap unit, you might be able to use val 4 mil sarges against val 3 ones... depending on the rest of your army.. which creates a local advantage for you somewhere else...

It does take some micromanagment from your opponent to deal with it, as one sword unit needs to avoid that spear unit to deal with that javelin unit the right way.. and as such yes, if it was a 1v1 game you'd have little chance... unless it was a 5-6k game perhaps a 8k one too... or unless you outplay your opponent... But I am not a 1v1 player, and I tend to play 3v3's and 4v4's most of the time... And one of the things I noticed in such games is that single unit vs unit comparisions matters not that much... as it is all about creating local superiorities... and cancelling out opposing units there where you have not gained them by for example distracting or delaying them... Having more superior units in total only matters when they can be used at the same location against the opposing players. Otherwise you may find yourself being overrun one group at a time due to having local disadvantages all the time... despite your side having more 'elite' units.

tempiic,

I don't think I have a monetary disadvantage elsewhere because v2 feudal sgt 578 + javelin 280 = 858 while v2 cmaa = 723 or v3 fmaa = 859. Your center will be ok, but you will have a numerical disadvantage and possibly a monetary disadvantage on the flanks.

I would say many players have figured out that flooding an area with more units than your enemy can bring is a very successful way to win team games because of the outnumbered morale penalty. Players who use this tactic don't want the average morale level to get up too high because it increases the chance that the tactic will fail. As morale increases the target of the attack will be able to hold longer which increases the time available for his allies to respond to the threat. I've never seen a proponent of the techinque say how long the target should be able to hold out.