Arm balance for 10K games

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Let's open the Pandora box again.

After the 2.01 patch (and even before) there were a lot of talk on florin level and possibly moving away from 15k down.

CBR talked about 5k games ... And many other amounts were proposed

There were two goals in changing florin level (weel, at least that's m understanding);
- somehow make units rout faster to make flanking / other manoeuvers more efficient
- and also to try to restore the Rock Paper Scissor aspect of the game by changing the sword/cavalry balance so as to make spears possibly more usefull.

Now, at least in the timezone I play, I see a lot of 10k games and some 15k games.

I personally like this better. Game seems to be a little faster, morale being slightly more important than sheer attrition... the 1st goal may not be fully achieved, but 10k is a step in the right direction.

On the second goal, let's face it, it's still not working. Anti cav units are still not worth taking. You' re still better off if you play without spears or polearm. Like 15k, it's cav / swords. Armies are really 15k look alike in their composition.

I don't know if lowering yet again the florin level is a solution. I am not even sure there is a way to balance the games betweeen different arms at any florin level.

But sure, I am willing to give a try at different florins levels and possible additional rule (caps on valour upgrade? same valour for all units?).
As it is know it's a little frustrating. Fun, yes, but I still feel I play half of the game and there is a 'match up' dimension we are not playing with much.

Louis,

[CBR]

The 4-5k gameplay did improve on the Rock Paper Scissor aspect but not enough and missile became too expensive.

Thats why I started working on the Community Mod idea as its simply not possible with florins alone to improve on current gameplay.

A rule of say max 2 valor will of course improve it too. But there was not much interest last year when we tried to play valor 3 games.

But it seems to me people have no problem with unhistorical units/upgrades that change the gameplay/balance of this game. I have pretty much given up as there is simply too much frustration with this game.


CBR

[Cheetah]

Let's face it MTW/VI will never be "properly" balanced, if "properly" means equal or roughly equal number of spear/polearm units compared to swords in an optimal army. The only way to achive this (without host made rules) would be to lower the price of spears and this will never happen.

So, the only solution is to put a v2 cap on sword/axe units (but only on sword/axe). Yes, this was proposed before and yes there was no interest. Still, this is the only solution.

To me the lack of interest shows that people are happy with what they have. Why force them to change?

BTW, with Kongamato (and some others) we played 2 games (3v3) with the v2 max for sword/axe rule and it worked well.

[ichi]

First, let me say that I do not mind games at almost any florin level. Each level is different, and requires a slightly different style of play. I know that many think that the flanking aspect is the 'heart' of the game, and 15K and up sucks.

I understand your argument, and I agree that flanking is more important in low florins games. But, there is also a strategy to using armies at higher florins (=higher valor = longer hold times), and there is some fun (for me at least) in these games.

Now, here's the on-topic part of the post. In order to make spears have the same value as cav or swords then spears must be priced lower. And Cheetah says that ain't gonna happen.

At lower florins it seems to me that cav becomes more powerful and spears are even less desirable.

Remarkably, I love to get a few OFS when I can afford to valor 'em up, usually in 20K or above games. But, then the insane holding power thing raises its ugly head, so that doesn't work.

So, the only practicable solutions are: support CBR commuity mod, live with the game, or host games with rules (like minimum requirement of 2 spears, or max V2 swords, or ??). This too has problems, like when someone doesn't follow rules or people whining about not getting to choose their army blah blah blah. . .

CBR may be on the right track with the mod. After watching how lazy people were with the recent mappack release I wonder what will be necessary to get folks to adopt a MP mod.

Thanks for listening. I think I keep playing. I never even figured out 15K, and 10K is hard, so I have challenge enough.

ichi

[Alrowan]

10k spears arent useless, just overlooked, people forget thier rank bonus and morale boost it gives, i quite often find myself using spears more and more, they can manage to hold a line well enough and occupy more than one unit. and if you take lots you can get a morale boost due to numbers

[Pitt_Slayer]

well their good anit-cav units and cheap i thought lowering florins we would see them more hmmm
i always use them in 5k game's and surprising their good and even fun (but not many 5k games about these days)
the problem with 10k v's 15k is troops don't hold so long and that changes one's views and tatic's towards the game now, its all chain routing now and to be honest i can't be ar*ed with that

5k is the way forward

[Mithrandir]

Why use spears if there are camels in the game anyway ? :D

[Mithrandir]

Quote[/b] (Pitt_Slayer @ Jan. 24 2004,04:41)]well their good anit-cav units and cheap i thought lowering florins we would see them more hmmm
i always use them in 5k game's and surprising their good and even fun (but not many 5k games about these days)
the problem with 10k v's 15k is troops don't hold so long and that changes one's views and tatic's towards the game now, its all chain routing now and to be honest i can't be ar*ed with that

5k is the way forward

Chainrouts happen more often with 10k than with 5k ?

Isn't that the other way around

[Puzz3D]

Mithrandir,

I think what allows spears to be used at 5k is that elite cav can beat swords. That happens because the cav has a better chance of breaking the sword in the charge due to the lower morale. The elite cav is prevented from dominating because you cannot buy a lot of elite cav at 5k. This particular gameplay falls apart at 6k and higher. The overall morale is low at 5k which means chain routing if you are caught out of position or doubleteamed, and ranged units are expensive. Overall it seems that both the ranged weapon and the anti-cav weapon were both overpriced in the spreadsheet as CBR has pointed out.

I would say, of the three, 5k is the least used florin level, and there is more or less and equal divide among players between 10k and 15k with 10k rewarding quick maneuver more than 15k. The multiplayer game doesn't work to full potential at any florin level, because the unit stats were made for single player and the upgrade system breaks the RPS which was weak to begin with (STW spears had an 8 combat point advantage vs cav, but MTW spears only have a 4 point combat point advantage as do all the anti-cav inf). We asked for stronger ranged weapons in MTW v1.0, but we got "ranged weapon upgrade discounts" in MTW v1.1 because of single play gameplay issues. Anyone can see that upgrade discounts cause a shifting unit balance with changing florin level. The upgrade system further breaks RPS by boosting melee capability on ranged units instead of improving ranged weapon effectiveness.

The basic multiplayer gameplay we now have at 10k and 15k is sword/cav (with the swords pumped way up so the cav can't beat them) because there is no counterarmy except the same sword/cav type army. That's the gameplay we have, and, apparently, the gameplay that most players want. Alternatives are available via alternate stats, such as CBR's mod,which enhance the "matchup dimension" (ref: Louis, first post last paragraph), but not many are interested.

[Dionysus9]

I think Ichi is correct-- ultimately the laziness of the average mp player makes it nearly impossible for change (even much needed change) to occur.

It is too much work to try to "push" mods on people who are too lazy to take a few minutes to install them.

There are some of us who would bend over backwards to try a new mod-- but most are just too damn lazy.

It sucks, but what can you do about it? Not much.

:(

[Swoosh So]

Also remember armor pierce are the new anti cav.

[Puzz3D]

Swoosh,

Nothing new about using armor pierce as anti-cav. I was using v4 mil sgt back in Dec 2002 as anti-cav and they were very effective especially against lancers which were the dominant cav type in mtw v1.1. When I say "sword", I'm including poleaxe units in that group, although technically they don't get the +1 attack vs spears. A better classification of sword + poleaxe units would be "shock" troops.

[1dread1lahll]

sorry, after my studies of 5k and 10k, i just wont play them....

[Tempiic]

I tend to use 1 to 3 spear units in 8k games, sometimes 0 though... Funny thing is that i use exclusively feudal sarges and nubian spears, avoiding armoured spearmen, chiv sarges and order foot like the plague...

These spear units, I do not use them for anti-cav purposes originally (though it does happen regularly of course) but rather for tying up enemy infantry units...

[tootee]

Quote[/b] (Cheetah @ Jan. 23 2004,22:04)]To me the lack of interest shows that people are happy with what they have. Why force them to change?

yes.. you cannot force people to change.. they will change when the situation hurts too much, become unbearable, or other reasons.

[tootee]

Quote[/b] (Dionysus9 @ Jan. 25 2004,01:08)]There are some of us who would bend over backwards to try a new mod-- but most are just too damn lazy.

hehe bachus dont blame me being lazy ;p often it just doesnt interest me enough.

[Ja'chyra]

Quote[/b] ]To me the lack of interest shows that people are happy with what they have. Why force them to change?

I agree, just because you don't like it is no reason to condemn it. Going by some of the reponses thee are still people you can play with your rules

[tootee]

Quote[/b] (Mithrandir @ Jan. 24 2004,13:35)]Why use spears if there are camels in the game anyway ? :D

good to see u back mith.

as for camels, in low florin games, their use is really limited due to their low moral.. using them too high a valour is not effective as usually one use camel such that at a lower cost then typical cav, it is a sure-kill for cav, and the saving can be used on better foot/missile. it is real challenging to use a low valour camel for other purpose except to watch the flanks near to the entire army.. stray too far it can hardly fight long b4 overwhelmed by morale penalty.. and they are too slow to retreat to friendly to be used as reserved, usually caught in the chainrout.

[Mithrandir]

hehe, low morale maybe, but they can take on 2 cavs, even when attacked from both front and back, that does it for me .

True however they could've used a bit more speed.Their charge is nice as it gives them power to flank units.

As for beind too lazy to install mods, its not that I'm too lazy.
If I knew for sure I'd like the stats and many others used it as well I'd install the mod. However if noone uses it its annoying having to reinstall the entire game...

I've been playing mostly 10k, and like Temp I use pears mainly as holding unit, nubian spears mostly.

[Puzz3D]

I'm moving up one notch to medium sized units in my 10k hosted games to see if that improves spears since they will retain their rank bonus longer.

40 --> 53
60 --> 80
100 --> 133

[Rowan11088]

I just can't imagine that there's no way to beat the pumped up swords alternative to spears...I'll admit I have very limite MP experience, but it seems like there are units that can beat those pumped up swords for less than those swords are worth, though they may not be useful against much else. I'm a big fan of woodsmen, with some small valor and weap and armor upgrades...if you upgrade a good ways they can take out moderate sword units because of their high charge. The really super sword units are a bit tougher, but why don't people just pump up their cav to the same level? There must be a level at which the cav can beat the swords again. Anyway, disregard me if none of this applies...as I said, little experience.

[Alrowan]

i thought at first fuedal sergs were worth it, but after using the chiv sergs on V2, i was converted, mainly due to the low defence of the fuedal sergs vs inf, id rather tie up units that i know wont get massacred vs inf.

[Pitt_Slayer]

maybe i didnt explain myself correctly
the Rock Paper Scissor aspect of 5k, there's only rock and scissors at 10k\15k, using spear at these florin levels = routing, at 5k there's less sword\elite horse and less valour, so more anti cav units = cheap spear units and horse will rout facing spear units

mith i wouldnt field a 5k army with all sword\horse as they would rout quicker then at 10k (thats the right way round)

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (Rowan11088 @ Jan. 26 2004,18:16)]I just can't imagine that there's no way to beat the pumped up swords alternative to spears...I'll admit I have very limite MP experience, but it seems like there are units that can beat those pumped up swords for less than those swords are worth, though they may not be useful against much else. I'm a big fan of woodsmen, with some small valor and weap and armor upgrades...if you upgrade a good ways they can take out moderate sword units because of their high charge. The really super sword units are a bit tougher, but why don't people just pump up their cav to the same level? There must be a level at which the cav can beat the swords again. Anyway, disregard me if none of this applies...as I said, little experience.

Basically there are a limited number of units type;

- Cavalry
- Light Cavalry (Alan, Saharan, Pict...)
- Horse Archer
- Missiles
- Spears
- Polearm (the 3/1 kind)
- Swords
- other (naphta, artillery...)

Woodmen are part of the swords... same for Militia Sergeant.

Sure, in theory they are different from sword (with armor piercing and no +1 att vs spears). But practically, they are used the same way.

The only cavalry can win vs sword is NOT in a straight fight; cavalry wins because they have specific morale modifier, which with strong charge can rout the ennemy.

The more money you spend, the higher the morale is, the less likely the sword are to rout and the greater are the chance they will win against cavalry.

There is a level at which the cav beats the sword... but that's with less money and troops routing faster... Not many likes that.

Louis,

[Ja'chyra]

I use spears all the time in MP at 10k and 15k and while they are not game winners by themselves it would be very hard to win without them. 3 units of these at V2 or V3 can hold against 4-5 units of any enemy troops long enough to swing your cav or swords round for a flank or rear attack, and that's got to hurt.

Anyway, I will keep playing the game at levels that I like and right now it's 15k and sometimes 10k with no mods except the map pack. But that's just me.

[Tempiic]

Quote[/b] (Alrowan @ Jan. 27 2004,01:52)]i thought at first fuedal sergs were worth it, but after using the chiv sergs on V2, i was converted, mainly due to the low defence of the fuedal sergs vs inf, id rather tie up units that i know wont get massacred vs inf.

I find val 2 chiv sarges bit too expensive... thats why i stick to val 2-3 nubians and val 2 feudal sarges... If i wait too long with my counter move they will get massacred yes... and if they take the brunt of my enemy army, more oppertunity for me to rout his allies ;)

[Mithrandir]

I've always hated Chiv sergs, rather have V3 Feudal sergs than V2 Chiv sergs, 4 more morale is more important for holding than higher defence. They might not last as long ,but that's usually not needed when holding units, at least they'll wont rout as soon as they see some peasants appraoching .

[Puzz3D]

Mithrandir,

The v3 feudal sgt (982 florins) are higher morale than v2 chiv sgt (866 florins), but the feudals suffer casualties at a greater rate due to their lower defense and there is a morale penalty for the casualties suffered in the previous combat cycle which tends to offset their higher morale advantage. They are also going to loose their rank bonus quicker. In addition, even 866 is too much money to be spending on an anti-cav unit at 10k where chiv knights are priced at 675 and used effectively at that v0 price, and the average you can spend on a unit is 625 florins. The spears are more expensive than the cav knights which is not the correct RPS. Marginal RPS at 10k would be effective v1a1 chiv sgt (703 florins) or v1 orderfoot (680 florins).


Rowan11088,

The cavalry are supposed to be the anti-sword unit. This is stated right in the official Strategy Guide. However, in general, the only way a 40 man cav can beat a 60 man sword is to trigger it into a rout by virtue of the special morale penalties the cav gets vs inf. If the sword is pumped up to morale 8 (for example, v2 cmaa or v3fmaa), the cav cannot trigger the necessary rout, and you can't even come close to affording the necessary upgrades on cav where they could win vs swords by attrition. Cav also has trouble beating ranged units in melee, and this shouldn't be happening either in a good RPS system. The upgrade discounts given to ranged units completely undermines this aspect of the RPS at florin levels where you can afford lots of upgrades on ranged.

[Mithrandir]

I know Puzz, but my battlefield experience has led me to like the Feudals above the chivs,

they mght die faster ,but my point is that they dont die fast enough to take away the advantage they hav from the extra morale.

Tying up units is usually only a matter of seconds in which you maouvrer your extra units (the number which you are holding with spears-1) behind the units engaged with the spears

well ,that's my style, not saying it's the only right thing :).

[Tempiic]

Yeah it works for both mith and me... it might not be the most effecient choice statwise... but still for some reason it is a preferred choice (also nice in combination with val 2-3 javelins) :P