LoL, I mean really In this attempt of subtle humor with hidden allusion to R:TW and, to a certain part of dedicated fans, an unacceptable introduction of historically inaccurate units, I think I didn't use the proper smiley. It should have been this one.
Today is your victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men.
Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings, The Water Book
I must say, if what froggy says is true, with such limited feudal options and diplomatical options, this game is not as interesting as it was at first glance. I think I'll wait for a few more patches to come... keep me updated.
~Wiz
"It ain't where you're from / it's where you're at."
Eric B. & Rakim, I Know You Got Soul
Well you got me sussed thenOriginally Posted by [b
Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ April 18 2004,11:19)]LoL, I mean really In this attempt of subtle humor with hidden allusion to R:TW and, to a certain part of dedicated fans, an unacceptable introduction of historically inaccurate units, I think I didn't use the proper smiley. It should have been this one.
But as for the game .I've tried doing a search ,but I can't get much info at all.
Don't they have a site somewhere?
That's it.
This is why I stopped playing Paradox games, however enjoyable they are. The devs just don't let you (me) enjoy the game. You just have to play it the way they intended it, and every new patch further restricts your options. The explanation is that e.g. EU2 was not a world conquest game. Well, what if I want it to be? That's what the customization is for after all. If I want to play without BB points, why not let me do so, and conquer the world as a German minor? Leave the BB system in for those who want to make their lives difficult, but allow it to be disabled for those who have a different idea of fun, which doesn't include artificial obstacles. And the patches just up the difficulty, create less of a laid-back game, and are generally put forward by people who are so jaded with regular gameplay that they need new challenges. Yes, their continued support is great, and the games have immense replayablilty, but eventually I just got fed up by exiting the game and editing the save file every time I annexed some fool who attacked me, just so that I would be even able to play around with diplomatic options (arguably the best thing about the EU engine). And that's even not mentioning all the cheating the AI does. Similar to the total war stage of the TW games, when the whole world attacks you eventually, and very anticlimactic - you are in fact getting punished for being successful.
Thanks for the review, froggy.
Some people get by with a little understanding
Some people get by with a whole lot more - A. Eldritch
If you want world conquest get vitoria
"talking poo is where I draw the line"-Eric Cartman
Long live the resistance.
Crusader Kings linkQuote[/b] (The Scourge @ April 18 2004,17:29)]Well you got me sussed thenQuote[/b] (voigtkampf @ April 18 2004,11:19)]LoL, I mean really In this attempt of subtle humor with hidden allusion to R:TW and, to a certain part of dedicated fans, an unacceptable introduction of historically inaccurate units, I think I didn't use the proper smiley. It should have been this one.
But as for the game .I've tried doing a search ,but I can't get much info at all.
Don't they have a site somewhere?
Battle for Troy link
Wasn't sure to which game that was referred to, so…
Just got my copy of Battle for Troy last night, this evening I'll grind my teeth into it.
Today is your victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men.
Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings, The Water Book
Just a word of warning to anyone thinking about buying this game (I have it since friday), it is still very buggy. The AI does some pretty stupid stuff: like the king of france mobilising all his vassals only to do absolutely nothing with those armies for years on end untill his vasals rebel and kick his ass.
You see, it's full of realism. But I'm sure they'll fix the BB for smacking down disloyal vasals.
Thanks for that image Froggy. Looks very detailed.
If you remember me from M:TW days add me on Steam, do mention your org name.
http://www.steamcommunity.com/id/__shak
Yes, but what I'm saying is that I have enough of that in real life. From a game, I prefer a pat on the back.Quote[/b] (the Count of Flanders @ April 19 2004,07:28)]You see, it's full of realism.
Some people get by with a little understanding
Some people get by with a whole lot more - A. Eldritch
Well I found out a bit more about all that strage Victorian brass band music in CK - it's from Vicky and is never actually used in game. This does beg the question of why it ends up in the CK music folder in the first place... Anyway I'm fed up of the bare handful (about 8 repeating endlessly)of grandiose wannabe medieval tracks that actually do play in the game, so I'm going to stick my own music in. That just leaves the problem of finding some decent medievalish music, I've got 5 very short tracks and could use about another 20. Something with a bit of bounce to it, if everything sounds like 'there is no rose of such virtue' I'll get depressed
hrvojej you will doubtlessly be pleased to hear that many on the CK forums are calling for conquest to be made so hard it is barely worth while or even possible on a semi-large scale. Oh joy. I don't see why they can't leave it so you can go forge an empire if you want to, even if it is inaccurate historically. If they set inheritance laws up that prevent situations like Matilda inheriting the throne of England and other big accuracy crimes why not allow players to create a nice empire or two if they want? If conquest is made as hard as some people want the Normans would never even have got to England, let alone conquered it. You can't even have regents, that 2 year old boy does actually run his dukedom himself, with the same help from his court as an adult. No fair - I was planning to set up a good queen as regent because her dear husband had an 'accident' while jumping out of the 6th floor window of his tower
Peace is all very well, but it's nice to let loose the dogs of war very occasionally. Besides there are only so many marriages you can arrange before you begin to feel voyeuristic. Even worse you do find yourself wondering what the heck is the matter with your son and heir when he can't produce a child after 4 years of marriage to some relatively pretty young thing, and not even a bastard child with someone else I swear he must be interested in boys or somethingIt took ages to find the guts to search out a wife for him in the first place, poor dear has my utmost sympathy Well I did get my pet Pope to excommunicate her cruel father who agreed to the match, so that's some slight comfort maybe. Now if the inheritance laws were more realistic for England I could just kill him and his wife would inherit because he has no son, bah
:froggy goes off and cries, her dreams of being Eleanor of Aquitaine and Matilda and setting up a alternate version of history where they won their civil wars, and then another game of conquering the UK, France and Holy Land to forge an English empire in tatters, but with a few dynastic births to hope for but only in a way not involving that fat twerp getting within 20 miles of his unfortunate wife who has suffered enough already:
Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.
Can't really make a judgment on CK yet ,maybe a bit of tweaking here and there is in order.
But if when I was playing EU , I could go and conquer at will with no consequences ,the game would have been off my hard drive in no time at all.
Most of the fun came in playing the political game ,and trying to manufacture a CB , getting around the BB rating.
Don't see it as a punishment for being successful .You're being punished because you're seen as a threat to world peace and stability.
That's it.
So if I take it right this game doesn't have the deep gameplay the AAR's want you to believe is there?
~Wiz
"It ain't where you're from / it's where you're at."
Eric B. & Rakim, I Know You Got Soul
I haven't really read the AARs, just the Lion in Winter. It does have depth, but at the same time it doesn't. Some aspects like warfare and diplomacy are rather skimpy, but others like your characters and dynasty are incredibly detailed.
I feel no matter what I say I think I will be both selling the game short and making it sound too good. Let me say that this is a disapointing game, but becasue it is merely really good instead of amazingly great, rather than because it is crap. It is disapointing in the same way MTW was disapointing - becasue you can see where a bit more polish and work would have made it sparkle like nothing else available right now. I'll post a copy of my wish list for the next patch, that pretty well sums up what I don't like or think needs work. I've added a few notes in italic brackets to cover the gap between forums.
1. Vassals and BB - we need to be able to repress rebellions without the situation spiralling out of control.
2. Women inheriting - I was looking forward to building a scenario based on the civil war between Matilda and Stephan with an eye to her winning and becoming queen, that is currently impossible. Ditto controlling Eleanor of Aquitaine and raising hell. It shouldn’t be common to have queens, but it should be possible in a few countries at least. England needs it for historical reasons. Women need to be able to inherit titles and thrones, but only as a last resort kind of thing, if the husband dies and has no children then in England the holdings went to the wife. Marrying widows for their lands was a valid practise back then, and it would be good to have in the game. Maybe if in the case of the crown it would only go to a woman if there were no children, grandchildren or brothers of the dead king, making queens possible but incredibly unlikely…something similar would work for other titles and holdings. Of course in the interests of accuracy a queen would have a big problem with loyalty until she was firmly established…
3. Marriage - something needs to be done to make this easier to arrange, in the information and interface side anyway. (popular request, basically make it easier to find prospective spouses, easier to send the proposal, easier to track the results, but not to make it easier to make the AI agree to marriage)
4. Relations with other countries/people - can we get some kind of feedback on whether they like us or not? In EU2 you can tell that France hates you for that last war, in CK you can only guess and this makes arranging marriages etc harder IMO. If someone hates me they will not let me marry their darling daughter, but how can I know if they hate me or not without feedback?
5. The crusade piety penalty feels a little steep to me, needing to crusade is good, but being forced into nearly endless war is bad. Of course I haven't done much crusading so far… (penalty for me currently is -4 piety per month I lose that even while fighting, for about 50 years of game time You gain piety back by conquering and winning in peace treaties, so basically while the crusade mode is in effect you *have* to fight almost non-stop because piety is vital - it makes your BB go down)
6. Performance - I'm playing on a great PC (P4 2.4, Radeon 9800 pro, 1GB RAM etc) and it is very slow and jerky, even at the start of the 1066 game. Only one CTD so far though.
7. More diplomatic options - I want to send gifts to people to improve my relations with them, just like in EU2. I also want other ways to end wars, apart from me losing (i.e. gaining nothing), gaining gold, or me taking their titles and getting hit by lots of BB. How about offering to let the person become your vassal but keep his lands etc, they will start with low loyalty and you only get a medium BB hit, similar to in EU2. Also possibly include marriage in the peace deals (My son marries your daughter, you give me 500 gold and become my vassal. In return I stop killing your armies and protect you. Fair?)
8. BB score - can we have it listed in numbers as well as text? Similar to in EU2.
9. Improve the tool tips - show the actual effects of traits. (again a popular request)
10. Can we have some kind of family tree? Something that shows your entire dynasty in one screen, rather than having to hunt around character screens to find out if Robert de Normanie (3rd with that name) is royal or not.
11. Removing children from the court screen sounds great, it breaks my heart to find a great steward only to find she is 0 years old and useless.
12. Vassalisation by diplomacy - I would ask if it is even possible but I have seen people talking about success with it. It never works for me, I don't know why or what I need to do to make it work. Showing relations and allowing diplomatic gift would make it easier to understand this aspect of the game, but if they can't be included can we at least get some idea of how this works via a tool tip?
13. Assassination - can we have some idea of how likely an attempt is to succeed or not? Something either as a percentage (We have a 22% chance of killing this character) or as a statement (It seems unlikely our attempt will succeed).
14. The events (call estates general, marriage duty of eldest daughter etc) - can we have a little more background on them? Just some idea sketched out in a few sentences as to what is happening, EU2 has this and it would really improve the atmosphere of the game.
15. Group peace and individual peace - sounds great, just like in EU2. (people are asking for ways to include your vassals in peace treaties, right you peace only applies to you so your vassal will keep fighting.)
16. Bastards - I too have only seen male bastards, can we have some female ones too? Also is it just men who can have bastards or can women have them too? I think I saw a woman with a bastard son but I'm not sure... Anyway all things fair in love and war (well not in war ), and women having bastards would add considerably to the game since this caused quite a few storms in history when the heir to the throne turned out to look more like the jester than the king.
17. Armies - please let us disband the whole army in one go as well as individually (very popular, right now you disband regiment by regiment and when you have 5 regiments in a large army...)
18. All those message/history logging requests - agreed, there is so much going on that is unreported, or can slip past you if you blink during a busy time in the event log. (asking for more messages to genorate pop ups, event log entries, history log entries)
19. A screen or overlay that shows you the loyalty of all your vassals - for the love of all that's holy please let us monitor loyalty easily PLEASE I spend so long moving around clicking on shields just to see if people hate me... (again popular request)
20. A screen that shows all the provinces in your realm, how much they earn, who owns them (you, vassal, which character), what they are building, current state of army (levied or not, how many men, what kind of soldiers, location). An at a glance state of your kingdom, basically.
21. Traits - um, a character can have opposing traits and that's a bit crazy. I had a lustful, chaste king (sound like another game we know?)
22. Changing inheritance laws - basically it is next to impossible unless you are a tiny realm. Where is the point in being able to change them if changing the law destroys your realm by default? A big loyalty hit/penalty is needed, but -100% loyalty is way too steep to be practical.
23. Can we have a message when someone comes of age please? That way we know we have someone to marry, grant lands to, and use as an advisor. Likewise a message for people joining/leaving our court.
24. Can the message for people dying/inheriting be made a bit clearer please? It is often hard to tell which character the message is talking about – in my current game I have 2 Anselm de Normanies and at least 3 William de Normadies.
25. Assassins - please touch up the assassins so you don't get heavily clobbered for being successful. Coupled with some feedback on how likely the attempt is this should make assassination a valuable, but not over powered tool. Although perhaps a small increase in the amount of gold it costs would be a good thing.
An update on my crappy son and his lovely young wife - they did have a child after about 9 years, but he died before he was even a year old. The bastard I thought she had, well the boy didn't have the bastard trait but there was no father listed in his profile, so what he was and who is father was is a mystery. He died too, illness at the age of 10.
An example of what this game can do when everything falls into place: I noticed my king was second in line to inherit an old duke, second behind a boy of 1. I sent an assassin to kill the boy so I would be the sole heir, the first assassin failed but the second succeeeded. I was now sole hier, and the old buffer obligingly died of old age just over 2 years later. I inherited a dukedom consisting of 2 provinces without any fighting or title grabbing, however I still gained BB points for killing the boy. Now if this kind of thing could bre done more often it would be incredible, but sadly most people have 6+ heirs and my king is not one of them. Also the BB and piety hits you would get from killing that many hiers would be worse than the amount you would get by conquering by force.
Scourge in response to your point about playing a political game in EU2 I would have to agree - that is most of the fun. However it is nice to go crazy from time to time and conquer Europe. In a game with good balance and options both approaches should be present and viabale, that way you can choose which you want. In a game called total war you know not to expect too much peace, but in EU2 the game is built in such a way to handle both if allowed. Personally I haven't found BB a problem in EU2 while conquering, but I haven't played all that much. In CK BB is crippling, and in CK the focus is more firmly on fighting than it ever was in EU2.
Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.
Have you got the first patch that's out? I am planning on investing my money on this game (it does sound promising...) and I really care about your detailed opinion on it.
CHIEF HISTORIAN
Yes, I have the 1.1 patch and I have played both 1.0 and 1.1 at some point. Both versions have their own advantages and disadvantages as far as raw 'fun' goes, but I would say overall 1.1 is a big step in the right direction. Hmm, how to sum this up?
This is a £25 game rather than a £35 game, well worth getting and with a lot of potential, but the less you pay the happier you will be and not just for reasons of economy. It needs work, there is a lot that has to be done before the game meets the potential it has, I spend much of my time when playing it wishing for some feature, tweak, addition, fix but the important thing is I am still playing, when I am writing my beginner's guide update I am planning things to try in CK. I am actually posting on the CK forums about what to include in a patch to improve the game - that in a way says it all. Did I ever post about the assorted MTW/VI patches and what needed adding? No, because although MTW needs a lot doing to it in my eyes the game is not worth the effort. CK is.
If those 25 points listed above are addressed this will be the best strategy game I have ever played hands down. As it stands with 1.1 it is in the top tier along with MTW in the so good, but if only they would do this it would be amazing
Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.
Well Paradox do have a reputation when it comes to supporting their games ,and it's not unusual for one of their games to be patched at least about four or five times before they really start to shine.
the good news is that the patches usually come pretty fast.
That's it.
How fast roughly? I know their good reputation, but the only other Paradox game I have is EU2 and that was on patch 1.7 when I finally found a copy. How soon can I expect 1.2?
Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.
Victoria was out in November and is now at 1.03 (1.03 was out in February).
For TW fan that's really fast...
Louis,
Yeah that sounds about right ,so don't lose faith.Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ April 21 2004,08:02)]Victoria was out in November and is now at 1.03 (1.03 was out in February).
For TW fan that's really fast...
Louis,
That's it.
Just to clarify: a small option to click before you start a new game BB points on/off is what I'm talking about, just like you have difficulty, aggressiveness, and whatnot settings. You could still play the game you want, while I could also play a game of conquest if/when I felt so inclined. It doesn't detract from the game at all, on the contrary - unlike the restrictive thinking it adds to the game, and it exhibits a far more tolerant view than everybody will play the game I want, or else. This is the kind of design decision I cannot fathom.
edit: And you do have plenty of consequences anyway: revolts, lowered income, war exhaustion, increased stability hits and costs, etc. Not to metnion that the AI cheats many of those, so they are essentialy there to hamper the player specifically.
Some people get by with a little understanding
Some people get by with a whole lot more - A. Eldritch
Finally, finally got the game, but I'm too tired to go for an install. Off to get my due four hours of sleep.
Today is your victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men.
Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings, The Water Book
Good reputation? They constantly bring out games that are bug-ridden and that aren't really playable till the 3rd-4th patch. I always feel like I am paying to be a beta tester. Vicky v1.3 is still unplayable IMO due to a very nasty pop income bug that messes up the whole economic model.
Still I'm having fun with CK, but I should have waited for another 6 months to buy it because by then it will be a great game (probably).
I meant their reputation for always patching their games, rather than the non-existant rep for releasing complete, stable games.
I'm going to try and mod the game quite a lot now, things like events to end crusades after 3 years instead of 50, and to make the crusading season a bit more frequent to balance things out. I'll see how many of the niggles I can fix for myself. :remembers how it took several hours of work to successfuly mod the music into something more peaceful with more tracks, because the was notihng said about the tracks having to be listed in alphabetical order for some strange reason: Wish me luck - I'm going to need it
Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.
From what I've read, this is sounding like some halfassed EU2 in another setting, seeing as there are all kinds of settings that should be in the game, but were left out, while they are in EU2...
"It ain't where you're from / it's where you're at."
Eric B. & Rakim, I Know You Got Soul
there's no comparing the two games, they are completely different. EU is about grand politics, CK is a simulation of the feudal system.
An update to my modding of CK - everything I want to tweak is hard coded. Oh joy, 50 years of crusades with endless piety penalties while doing anything other than the last few seconds of a province capturing battle
Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.
I'm now playing a new game as the duke of Ulster, this one is going so well I'm writing it up into a story. You can find Blood Red Hand in our own Mead Hall, if you are bored enough to want to read it.
Playing as a small dukedom avoids some of those problems I mentioned - no vassals can rebel if you rule everything yourself. Crusade expectations for my tiny realm should be minimal, just like the income.
Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.
What I meant is that it could easily have all kinds of settings that made EU2 so good implemented in it -- it is the same engine, after all.Quote[/b] (the Count of Flanders @ April 22 2004,10:39)]there's no comparing the two games, they are completely different. EU is about grand politics, CK is a simulation of the feudal system.
"It ain't where you're from / it's where you're at."
Eric B. & Rakim, I Know You Got Soul
Frogbeastegg and all
I just got this game, returning home after a tiresome day at work. Found wife taking a nap, so installed and gave it a shot.
Well... it looks good but... how the heck does it play??? I started off small as a tiny little Byzantine count, but I kinda lost control and account of what was going on and why.
Froggie would you be so kind (extremely kind, actually) and point me to a rigid starting sequence and some basic game elements? Or point me at some kind of straring guide anywhere on the net?
I've skimmed through Paradox forums but most stuff I've found was for the advanced player (and I am not even novice player yet)
Thank you very much in advance
CHIEF HISTORIAN
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