Two Crowns mod: 1403-1500

[Duke John]

Shall we contact one of the members who play Crusader Kings and ask them to make some screenshots of the European map. We will then have very quickly loads of historical provinces. I guess froggy can do that as payment for her Geisha smilies

[ShadesWolf]

Quote[/b] ]are you planning to use all 99 provinces?

With a large european map then I see no reason not to use all 99 provinces. It also depends on what we are attempting to achieve with this, if we want a fairly historically mod then why not. It would be nice to see with a number of armies what could be achieved in 85 years....

At the moment I have 23 allocated to the UK - they are as follows - please keep in mind this is first pass....

scotland (3)
- Lowlands (The home of the douglas)
- Mid lands (good name )
- high lands

Wales (2)
- North Wales
- South wales

England (18)
- Cumberland
- Northumberland
- Lancaster
- York
- chester
- Staffs & Shropshire
- hereford & Worc
- Somerset
- Cornwall & Devon
- Dorset & Hampshire
- sussex & Kent
- Wilt & Berk shires
- London
- east anglia
- Oxford
- Cambridge
- Derby & Notts
- Lincoln

European mainland (44 So far)
- Brest
- Nantes
- Normandy
- Anjou
- Poitou
- Tournai
- Bourdeaux
- Limousin
- Guyenne
- Armangnac
- Toulouse
- Auvergne
- Nimes
- Avignon
- bourbonnais
- Orleans
- Maine
- Rouen
- Paris
- nivernats
- Burgunddy
- Lyonnais
- Dauphine
- Provence
- Savoy
- Turin
- Bern
- Zurich
- Grisons
- Milan
- Veniza
- Parma
- Verona
- Genoa
- Lorraine
- champagne
- Mainaut
- Calais
- Picardy
- Flanders
- Zeeland & Holland
- Brabant (spelling corrected)
- Luxembourg

This would still leave us with another 30 ish provinces to play with, which we could us some on





#######
As with regard to Crusader kings, yes that would be ok, But I also have a game by Paradox, this is called Two Thrones. It cover 1337 to 1490.

Feature include
- Choose between several large nations like england, France and burgundy and fight the hundred years war, or control one of the two factions in the war of the roses.

I think this would be a good start for historicall province names.........

[Duke John]

Zeeland will be too small. I think Holland needs Zeeland to be big enough to contain armies and a castle. The map isn't that big.

Braddant should be Brabant. Guess which province Duke John (or more like Duke Jan) ruled?

The rest looks good as far as I can see.

[ShadesWolf]

Looking at the map Flanders, Zeeland and Holland are all the same size, So we could make Flanders largers and combine Zeeland and Holland, making their total area smaller...

BTW did you get the email...

[NormanPain]

If this mod includes 100 years war...shouldn't it start in 1337 rather then 1415? Or is this meant more to represent the later years of the war when the french finally started figuring out it was smarter to go around the longbowmen rather then straight at them?

[ShadesWolf]

Quote[/b] ]If this mod includes 100 years war...shouldn't it start in 1337 rather then 1415? Or is this meant more to represent the later years of the war when the french finally started figuring out it was smarter to go around the longbowmen rather then straight at them?

It is meant to deal with the end of the hundred years war and the events that happened after.

We do not have enough BIF folders to cover the earlier part of the conflict, the units will be tailored to cover the later conflict.

You would also need to take into account the factions of
Flanders
Brittany
Aragon
Navarre
Castile

and all of there unique units....

[Angelnessuno]

italians: i can suggest you this region
north italy

-Venezia (Venezia)
-Piemonte (piedmont)
-Milano (Milan)
centre of italy

-toscana (tuscany)
-Roma (Rome)
-Napoli (Naples)
-Siena
-Urbino
-Ferrara
south italy

-Napoli (Naples)
isle

-sicilia (sicily)
-Sardegna

[Angelnessuno]

european medieval map


http://www.cronologia.it/storia/aa1300d.htm

[NormanPain]

Nice, no complaints here. Can't wait by the way, keep up the good work.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I think it would be interesting to include Ireland as quite a few served as mercenaries during the HYW and war of the roses but apart Richard II visit there and the duke of york being exiled there, it doesn't play a major part in proceedings

Will you include any of the islands? Man, Jersey, Guernsey etc. Important naval bases and were attacked( the latter two) during the HYW.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Another good unit idea is the mercernary companies which terroised france during the 1350's and 1360's. French, navaresse, Breton, British, etc would sack and brutalise anyone as long as money was involved and even though when peace with France was achieved in 1360 at the peace of Bretigny, they roamed unappposed striking at all.

[Duke John]

Quote[/b] ]Another good unit idea is the mercernary companies which terroised france during the 1350's and 1360's.

That should be seen as rebellions. Those companies were able to terrosise France because the King could not handle them or becuase he generally had not enough power/control over his regions. This translates to M:TW as low loyalty/happiness.
We could tie Mercenary Units to rebellions in French Provinces to simulate those mercernary companies.

Voulgiers


Ships, trade, money
I want this game to be hard and that means in my eyes eliminating all features that only gives the player advantages over the player:
- the player can handle income/spending better;
- the player can organise naval invasions better;
- the player can trade better.

So I would like to see ships and trade eliminated, since they are so badly coded that it becomes too much advantage for the player. It will be also quite irritating for the English player to be unable to send troops over the Channel if there are still French ships.

The AI plays better if it's not in debt, so it might be a good move to give provinces a very large income.

Agents
I really don't like the cluttering of agents in the endgame. And again agents are better handled by the player than the AI.

Religion has no place in our mod since all the factions are catholic. So the religious agents are out.

I would like to the Spies and Assassins go. Spies are too easily abused to cause revolts and using Assassins to kill generals isn't right. In all my books I have never read this happening.

Also since we only have 2 major I doubt that we really need Emissaries, but I guess this can be still put on because they fit in.

To summarise I want a stripped down campaign that focuses around the battles and which gives the player a very hard time.

Cheers, Duke John

[Nomad]

As usual your sending me star-e eyed with all the eye candy.
Love the Swiss armoured Pike Dj. These meat grinders are elegant. As is the rest of the stuff. Still hoping you'll sort out some Lorrainer cavalry or a generic bif in the style of. Those MTW riders/knights are the weakest link in the MTW artwork.

[Angelnessuno]

DJ ...i see the swiss armoured pikeman ,are they a new unit? i never see they ....in your mod :the war of two roses there were the mercenary pikeman but not them

[ShadesWolf]

Nice idea BKB, not sure how to follow this one up yet

Quote[/b] ]Will you include any of the islands? Man, Jersey, Guernsey etc. Important naval bases and were attacked( the latter two) during the HYW.

I would like to include the islands as Jersey/ Guernsey as they had some useful battles/ sieges and would make nice castle maps, but im not 100% sure, I will have to think about it.

Im also playing with the idea of making rivers a little more important. Maybe have provinces which are next to each other but the river acts as a barrier, so you can only cross at the next province which has a bridge.

Im also thinking over times scale and the size of the map....

Here is my problem, I will use an example to illustrate:
Calais to Paris is Approx 180 mile (280KM for all you heathens) On the map Im looking at/ working with this could easily be four provinces apart, hense four years, however this should easily be achievalbe in a 12 month march... So how do I achieve this?

Should I make provinces, which are not next to each other accessible, ie you skip over a few provinces in one turn ?

What do you all think...



BTW BKB do you have an England Flag on your car, most other in BRUM do

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I'm to poor to buy a car But if i did you can bet they would be flying high

[NormanPain]

I have a question...Ok several references often refer to english uniforms as red with either lions or sometimes flowers of sorts whereas other references from the same time period say their uniforms were white with a large red cross like their flag, or white with a small red cross up on their shoulder...so were uniforms up to the vassals who brought the troops or is it a difference between levies and professional soldiers? Im confused Im asking you guys because you would more then likely know considering there wasnt many uniformed armies until around the 100 years war period. Any answer would be great...if you don't answer thats fine...I know you have better things to do, thanks in advance

[Trax]

I'm not sure, but I think that first red uniforms in English army were issued to the New Model army during Civil war. I don ´t believe there was any kind of uniforms in medieval era, although I may be wrong.

[Angelnessuno]

DJ this is a Italian map of period

[Nomad]

Quote[/b] (ShadesWolf @ June 10 2004,20:19)]Here is my problem, I will use an example to illustrate:
Calais to Paris is Approx 180 mile (280KM for all you heathens) On the map Im looking at/ working with this could easily be four provinces apart, hense four years, however this should easily be achievalbe in a 12 month march... So how do I achieve this?

Should I make provinces, which are not next to each other accessible, ie you skip over a few provinces in one turn ?

What do you all think...

Nice idea,
You could also make the game turn based i.e change the years into turns and edit the events calendar to record a new year say every 4 turns. But your idea probably involves less work.

[Angelnessuno]

DJ: monday i will write the composition of milanese army
in that period because i must return at home and seemy osprey book about italian army

[Angelnessuno]

DJ the another italian city could be the republic venice
,it was the most important italian states of the period .....if you are interest monday i will give you also the list about venetian army

[ShadesWolf]

How do the following provinces sound:

Bern
Zurich
Grisons

Savoy
Turin

Genoa

Milan
Parma

Veniza
Verona

These will be split between
- The Swiss
- rebel/ independant (ie Savoy, Turin and Genoa)
- Milan
- Venice



This is a very rough sketch, as I dont have my pen installed. It is to show what I am thinking of for the Italy/ Swiss area........

[Duke John]

ShadesWolf
Could you edit one of your posts at the first page so that they contain all provinces with some remarks like: Flanders was reknown for Flemish Pikemen, but is also slightly rebellious: In spite of their reputation they contributed little but trouble for the Dukes, demonstrating a remarkable obstinacy to muster, endlessly arguing over pay and length of service, and on at least two occasions running ignominiously away in the face of the enemy.

Burgundian Provinces
I think Burgundy should be split up:
Throughout the whole period of the Valois Dukes the majority of men-at-arms came from the two Burgundies, and to a lesser extent the province of Artois.
[Source: Armies of Medieval Burgundy 1364-1477]
When you look at the map at page 4 you will see the Duchy of Burgundy and the County of Burgundy.

Cheers, Duke John

[ShadesWolf]

Sorry DJ that was me,

when I changed the provinces, to include some Swiss and Italian ones, I must have deleted Franche-Comte and not noticed.

On a seperate subject - TURNS or YEARS.....

What your felling on this subject, both have advantages... which do you think.

If we use Turns then we could extend the game play, thus it would not be only 85 years, 4 turns could be 1 year....

however, if we dont have Years we will lose what year it is.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Hey Shades i have done a Brittany faction, do you want it( Flags, names etc) or are you concentrating on the main factions?

Really like the province ideas by the way. I have a feeling i'm going to like this mod

[ShadesWolf]

Hi BKB thanks for the nice words

At the moment Brittany is out of the scope of this mod, as by 1415 it was not a major player.

If you want you could always email it to me, so I can put it on the back burner, for any future mods, as I dont expect to spend much time playing Rome, as its not my historic period.... But it might be moddable so who knows....

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Fair play mate. So who is in the mod, apart from English, France and Burgundy?

[ShadesWolf]

So far we have

Playable factions
The French
The English

Rebels
The Swiss
The Scots

Factions that act as civil war
The Burgundians
The Yorkists

Disabled Factions
The Milanese Citystate (this name should be edited)
Holy Roman Empire (may become rebel)


HOWEVER, All will be available for online play

[Duke John]

Quote[/b] ]I dont expect to spend much time playing Rome, as its not my historic period.... But it might be moddable so who knows....

I'm not a fan of that period either. But if it proves moddable, then we shall just continue modding on the R:TW engine, right ShadesWolf?

Quote[/b] ]Sorry DJ that was me,

I have done worse things, no need to apology

Turns or years
I was thinking about this as someone proposed this. We also have this problem with ME:TW. I think it would be best if we go for turns.
The problem with years is that I have too much knowledge of the period and that I simply don't want to play beyond 1500 because I know that by then the renaissance appeared.

However if we just ditch the years then we would indeed lose the feeling of time. But perhaps that is only good. You could then pretend that a turn would a year or even just a week. I don't know, but I like it better then being restricted to 1 province a year. If we call a turn months then it would be too obvious that monarchs are dying way too soon.

Another advantage of turning years into turns is that we can start the campaign at a different year then 1415. We could then use the appearing of the Golden Horde (the Burgundians) and the Swiss (Yorkists). That does mean that the time of arrival is always the same, but so is the starting position. I think it would be too ahistorical if Burgundy would appear in Scotland.

Other events could be used to mark the coming of the Ordonnance.

On the other hand. I've started quite a few campaigns and after 50 years so I could already predict that I was winning and I quit the campaign because it would be become ahistorical as I became a superpower.
So a span of 85 years might be enough to keep it interesting.

Techtree
I think that you will agree with me that the techtree concept is completely unrealistic. So I want to propose the following:
- Translate Training to Recruiting. Lords recruited troops, they did not train them. A minor change, but I think it's a nice little touch.
- Ditch all the buildings. Instead you can now build governors. Castle1 will be Lord. The infopic will show the lord with his entourage. The Lord can only recruit common troops. Then there are Earls/Dukes/Counts. who will be either an upgrade of the Lord or an additional building. The Dukes and Counts can recruit more advanced troops such as Men-at-Arms and artillery. Then there is the King, or even better the Throne. The King is able to recruit Knights.

The advantage is that the bastard feudal system is much better simulated as opposed to the techtree concept where buidlings dictate what you can build.
Since it takes time for the population to follow a new lord it becomes logical that it will need to be rebuild once a province is captured.

Titles
If we want the Governor buildings then we could stick titles to the buildings. We might be able to make the Lord building indestructible by using the indestructible Forest Clearing entry. The Lord would not get a title as each province automatically has the Lord title.
Then the Duke building will get a Duke title. And the Throne will get a Protector of the Realm title for England, and for the French.....

Forum and website
As we starting to collect alot of information and since you have ordered a few extra books. Would it perhaps be better if make a seperate forum as you suggested some time ago. I am afraid that we will lose interesting/valuable information as the thread gets more and more pages.

I've made a website a long time ago and I am still searching for a reason to finish it. I think the looks of it is appropiate for the period, and it could act as the Two Crowns website.
Edit: website