3v3 is max for RTW

[shingenmitch2]

I wonder if all the "features" were omitted because they are looking to make this a game for the Playstation or Xbox. Thus it has to be dummed down to work with those limited controls and no keyboard.

Just a thought. A sad thought.



All they had to do was make a 3D version of HellenicTW with a nice strat map with new features linking it to the battle. EVERYONE would have happy. And THIS is what we get? Worse Battle game-play. Worse MP options. And Bugs.
Nice.

I feel like I didn't get a reach-around after shelling out the $50. But hey I asked for it... I've been predicting what would happen even before I walked into the store.

[ElmarkOFear]

Mitch, in the Flash menu of the Demo, it was mentioned that "Yes" they ARE looking into making the TW series for Consoles. I believe XBox was mentioned, but not sure.

[GilJaysmith]

I wonder if all the "features" were omitted because they are looking to make this a game for the Playstation or Xbox. Thus it has to be dummed down to work with those limited controls and no keyboard.

Just a thought. A sad thought.

And an incorrect one.

[Tera]

Then we would be glad if we had some answers regarding all these problems and lack of features we're encountering then, Gil. You can't blame anyone for inventing theories and reasons when nothing is coming from the developers. You know we love this game, but we're dissapointed about the current MP part of the RTW. You can't say that the anger and dissapointment shown by the large majority of the current multiplayer community isn't justified.

Help us.

[Merlin271]

And an incorrect one.

What are the correct reasons then?

[Puzz3D]

Going from 16 to 20 units is a 25% increase, and going from 4v4 to 3v3 is a 25% reduction. So, 4v4 may well have been removed for performance reasons. Since RTW is at least equal to MTW in performance, maybe 4v4 could be reinstated if the host could set a 16 unit limit.

[Orda Khan]

That's four words Gil and to be honest not worth the time it took to type them. I would much rather a response to the many MP questions already raised, however I won't hold my breath waiting

.....Orda

[GilJaysmith]

I can only answer what I know. I can't answer many MP questions because I don't have many answers for you.

But I do know Rome is not going to be ported to X-Box or anything like that; decisions taken regarding the control scheme were guided by the desire to make the system friendlier.

I also know most of the bugs being reported in this forum are valid, and I'm forwarding them to the team for discussion. That's all I can do right now.

[Tera]

I understand that MTW and RTW were developed simultaneously, and being on the MTW Team, Gil might be a little in the dark regarding RTW development details.

Thanks for forwarding the list of bugs then, Gil. We would be glad if some day you or the developers give us some details on what's being done and the release of any patches.

[ElmarkOFear]

Here is a page from the Flash Program that came with the RTW Demo. Read the last line of the screenshot. I think it is self explanatory and adds substance to my signature at the bottom of my posts.


http://imcintosh.com/ugly/albums/Rom..._001.sized.jpg

Technically, RTW isn't going to be ported to the XBox, but RTW is a great big step towards this ultimate goal. It cannot be denied. RTW appears to have been a practice attempt to make things more console-friendly so later iterations of the series can be released simultaneously with little change between the two platforms.

[Chimpyang]

Thank you Gil for forwarding them, you've reallu been the only one around and have been peltered with questions and have had to watch as the RTW (something i belive you didn't even work on) FAQ's all come towards you.

[Paolai]

, yes I am curious too

[shingenmitch2]

As far as SP and making the interface more user-friendly, that is an admirable goal. I think then, there was a case of over thinking and reinventing the wheel. As an example: the unit-cards are much harder to "read" -- i.e. understand the unit rank, morale level, ammo level and fatigue level and this was exacerbated by forcing the radar-map to fit down below with them (btw that was unnecessarily complex too). Honestly, the original system was clearer. Sometimes simpler is better (see Edward Tufte on information design).

I guess I'm just still in shock at how many new solutions there were to things that were not problems AFAIK---and that might have been made worse, while other glaring issues appear not to have been addressed.

If my criticism has been harsh, it is only because I have completely enjoyed prior incarnations of this game. I know what the series has been in MP, what it is now not, and I fear the end of the MP community (where I've spent many happy hours during the past 3-4 years).

--------

To Diony/Bachus' post below. Excellent and very helpful!

[Dionysus9]

Gil,

This might help--it is a prioritized list of issues that need addressing. Keep in mind this is my opinion from reviewing the complaints and based on my own experience playing MP. I'm sure reasonable minds can differ, and I would encourage the community to comment on the order I've listed these issues:

Critical (things we cant live without):
1. Syncronicity -- Ensure game state is not diverging during the game
2. Crash to Desktop when logging on (still happening, gamespy lobby problem)
3. Replays-- ensure they are syncronized with game (currently they are NOT--we can't run tourneys without replays).
4. Logfiles-- where are they? Do they show what units were taken? We need these for tourneys
5. 3v3 only? We need 4v4's for our tournaments and clan competitions.
6. Unit/Army control is flawed--No way to move army and retain facing (in MTW this was alt-left click), no way to have groups within groups (as in MTW). Formation/orientation is destroyed when dragging a line of units: Say you have AAAABBBB units in a group. When you set them like this AABBBBAA and draw a line the result is AAAABBBB again. Units turn back to their original state and your setting/formation is ignored.

7. Grouped units often refuse to take orders (most commonly the run order). Some report un-grouped units are responding to orders directed at a group.

8. When in testudo, if a single unit walks into the formation, you lose control of that unit of the legionaries in testudo formation for the rest of the game.

Important–(things that make the game highly frustrating)

1. allow Withdrawal/Rout in MP ("W"ithdraw doesn't work in MP!)
2. game info available from lobby
3. allow faction to be selected by more than one player
4. proprietary player names (so some jerk can’t steal your name and ruin your reputation) [linked to CD Key like MTW]).
5. allow “quick chat” (t/y) like in MTW, chat should not fade/scroll so quickly
6. Fatigue bars on units/exhausted units should not be able to run (but they can)
7. allow for custom denari amounts
8. #ignore/#ban commands for gamespy lobby
fade-out names for “in game” players in gamespy lobby
9. allow selection of faction color
10. show who is deployed and who isn’t deployed on the battle map.
11. Bring back F1 to view unit stats and players/factions/teams list (and grey out names of dropped/routed players like in MTW)
12. Unit tax for more than 4 units of same type
13. We need 2 keys to toggle run– if you have a group in which half the units are already running, pressing “R” makes them walk. So “R” becomes useless in groups where some units are walking and others are running. We need a “Run” button and a “Walk” button please.
14. Trying to order an engaged non-cav unit to fall back should result in a major morale penalty when they turn their backs. This doesn’t seem to be occuring.

Preferred– (these are things that would enhance the quality of play for us)
1.Remove “zoom to death of general” during MP games (very distracting)
2.Once routed, “restricted camera” mode should not apply to you. Please fix.
3. Look into reports of server lag.
4. Look into reports of host-drop crashing all players computers.
5. Brighter highlighting for selected units (some say it is difficult to tell selected units from non-selected units)

Would be nice– (add this if you have time)
1. Being able to use general’s rally ability without having to select his unit.

We will mod ourselves:
1. Kill rate/game speed
2. Balance (cav/elephant) [more testing needed]

[FearZeus]

What is also very dissaponting is the lack of news from CA? I personally think we should have a lot more say while the game is in development and it couldn't hurt if there where 2 or 3 beta testing stages for the multiplayer making of the game...

This game would be amazing if CA just listen to us vets and give us what we ask, the sales would also be higher and smiles wider!

[FearZeus]

Also,

Very well said bacchus!!!

[shingenmitch2]

Hehe,
Zeus, what the hell do we know? We've only been playing variations of the game for going on 4 years.

... we're also not the target audience

[Dionysus9]

I can't really take much credit, these are issues that were compiled over at the .net and all I really did was prioritize them.

Missing from the above list is-- gamespy lobby chat cutting off the bottom of the last line.

And also some people have asked for a shell-to-desktop function (alt-tab or windows key).

[Dionysus9]

Mods feel free to split my post of prioritized fixes-- I should have started a new thread anyway.

Also, and this is a secondary issue--several Spanish players have taken exception to the characterization of hte hispanic faction as "Spanish" and they are requesting a change to "celtiberian" or "iberian" or "hispania"--

CeliberoLion says:
"I prefer first they fixed Mp gameplay issues before this, but don´t see any problem to include the nomenclature error in the list, in the end if you want.

Imagine they name Frenchs to the Gauls, Italian to the Roman, British to Britons, Moroccan to Numidian, Persian to Parths...

Its a serious historical error. Spain dont exist until 1300 AD.

Celtiberian is the most correct, but its a Clan name, i understand they dont want to give preference, but is preferable Iberian or hispanic than spanish."

[ElmarkOFear]

I guess they figured the console crowd wouldn't know the difference, so had to dumb it down for them. Like most of the other "marketing" decisions that determined the featureless, control-less, and tactic-less realtime battles of RTW. Now everybody, no matter what experience level they are at, has a chance of beating anyone else. What fun!

PS. There is nothing different in the console players and PC players intelligence-wise, but gaming developers/publishers think that console players have lower IQ's, are much younger, and will not enjoy a game that is very challenging. Might be true for console-only players who do not own a PC, but for those that frequent the forums and know how to use a PC, it is an insult to their intelligence to produce a game where the MP is so bad it is unplayable and the realtime battles are too easy.

Maybe, the reason for the extra speed and the unwillingness of CA/Activision to acknowledge the problem is due to it being an attempt to cover up/compensate for the weak battle AI behind this game.

[Dionysus9]

I guess they figured the console crowd wouldn't know the difference, so had to dumb it down for them. Like most of the other "marketing" decisions that determined the featureless, control-less, and tactic-less realtime battles of RTW. Now everybody, no matter what experience level they are at, has a chance of beating anyone else. What fun!

I disagree with the last part of that statement (i.e. tacticless)-- at first impression--hell yes. Maybe the first 10 online MP games you play you are back to being a newb again because of the differences in control, units, interface, etc. Sadly, with the Crash to Desktop problem compounded by memory leak (necessitating reboot after every other game to avoid freezing up) it might take you 2 weeks to get in that number of games--which is the real tragedy.

But after you deal with the initial shock of the new format (and ignoring CTD for the moment) your old vet skills will start to make the difference. Already I am feeling acclimated to many of the changes (the lack of control is an atrocity, but it can be worked around--the lobby is also bad, but I can bear it until the patch)--I can see the hotspots forming, see the weaknesses in the main line, see the holes for flanking, etc. Units rout when they should, archers seem to work. Spears actually hold. Rock/Paper/Scissors seems to be better than even MTW:VI . . .

If everyone who was leaving was forced to sit down and play 15 3v3 games with good allies and opponents, you would have some hope for the future (as I do) and I'll bet you'd stick around. But, frankly, with the CTD issue STILL unresolved I really can't blame anyone for getting up and walking away.

Also, I think CA is truly surprised at our reaction to RTW-MP. Somehow I think they expected us to be happily surprised--whereas the opposite is true. I think the CTD thing was a SNAFU by gamespy and poor old CA can join the long list of companies that has been bitten in the arse by "gamespy" (i wont resort to name-calling even if they deserve it).

I dont think the developers ever truly understood the game, and that is even more true with respect to CA management. The more I think about it, it seems the Alt-left-click (move retaining facing) might have been a bug that we discovered and used as a feature (its nowhere in the docs, tutorial, etc.). The game between the devs and the community showed that the devs had no appreciable skill at playing and were essentially new players (can you expect them to code for 9 hours a day then go home and play?)...which explains why they themselves might look at the MP control in RTW and find it acceptable.

Anyhow, I really don't think this is a campaign to squelch out MP, or to destroy the community-- I think it is a problem of not truly understanding the game and rushing it to market, compounded by some Vice Pres. at the top who decided four years ago that MP wasn't worth more than 1% effort because he didn't want to take the risk of trying to open that sector of the market. It may be an attempt to move toward the console format-- but do you really think this debacle was intentional? Hell no, they thought we would eat it up with relish. Boy did someone screw up!

I tell you what--if I was in charge of the MP side I would have heads rolling in the streets and we'd have an announcement that an initial patch will be out in 2 weeks. The fact that that hasn't happened indicates, to me, where the problem really lies. Leadership, or the lack thereof.

It's not too late for CA to pull this out of the fire-- they need to make an announcement explaining what their plan is to fix the problems, immediately. (not some "we will make an announcement about the announcement about an eventual patch"). They need to make a community wide substantive announcement-- NOW--like last week. Even waiting another week is probably too long unless CTD is fixed before the weekend. Sadly, I think the problem with weak MP-end leadership (its the only thing that makes any sense) is not going to solve itself and therefore I have little hope for a quick command decision that brings the players back to the table.

My suggestion for a timeline would be Oct. 15th all CTD issues solved, new lobby format resembling MTW (ping, game details, greyed out players when in game, etc.); Nov. 25 (thanksgiving day) patch for better unit control and restoring 4v4 option; late January all other issues. Is that not workable? I would have the MP team working overtime until thanksgiving to fix this debacle and if they aren't up to it, well, they know where the door is.

I think that timline tests the limits of what the players would find acceptable--if that is not workable at the corporate level then I guess the MP side of the game will die afterall.

But there is hope, yet. There is hope. . .

[ElmarkOFear]

I am glad you are optimistic, especially after having been around for the last 3 to 4 years and seeing how things work. This travesty called RTW MP and the unbelievably bad real time battles, have finally ended any and all optimism left in me.

I will however continue to frequent these forums in the extremely small hope the next game in the series will aschew the RTS/Console market and regain its place at the top of the MP mountain.

[Dionysus9]

Elmo,

I hope they pull a 180 on the patch and that you end up coming back, but if not-- may fate favor your blade, old friend.

*bows low*

Edited to move some remarks to the .net.

[AMP]

de-synching of games between MP player's PCs resulting in different outcomes for each player - this has happened to me playing with swoosh in a 1v1.. about 10mins into the game i try to chat and my chat options get stuck on the screen and wouldn't go away. i couldn't type to her, but we were still able to play and we could tell our games were different the way movement of troops was going, about half-way into the game.

controls - i like how you don't have to group units and they stay in formation when you click towards the enemy, but there is no ability to change your facing before hand and click on the map for your army to move any distance and keep the same facing, it changes as soon as you right click again. you can use alt to change the facing while the army is still, but that's it. i think in order to keep the facing when you want to army to move to a certain spot you have to move your camera there and face it the way you want your army to face... dunno, but that would take to much time. Any of you found a way to keep the facing?

camera - it was perfect in the other totalwars, no idea why they changed it. i was able to adjust it to almost like the other totalwars, but i have to use my mouse to rotate, when in the others i could just use the keys. and when i out it to keys for rotating i can't move left or right, i have to use the mouse... bah. something i'm missing or could we have the old controls back plz...

i would like to know a good reason for the change...

i've played a game called populous the beginning for 3 yrs which had the same type of camera movement, plus totalwar for 4 yrs.. now it's gone :(

[FearZeus]

AMP,

For the camera, when in game hit esc then change camera back MTW style... the option is there!

As for the rest, It's damn right annoying and frustrating to see the total war series so bad and unplayable. Good luck!

[ElmarkOFear]

Moved to follow Dionysus to .net. hehe He tells me I am his favorite internet stalker! :)

[ElmarkOFear]

LOL Dionysus: I spent an hour on arguing your points and you then move this post to the .net! You scurvy dog! hehe

I will move mine as well posthaste!

[shingenmitch2]

Elmo --
posthaste -- is that like when you hit "submit reply" before you're ready?

Baz --
I'm not sure how, after 4 years the leadership doesn't understand "what they have," but I do get the feeling ur correct. (i.e. the GAME is about the battles not the campaign).

I think one of the biggest problems, perhaps with all the versions, but especially this one, is a serious lack of play-testing. I just get the sense that too often they "best guessed it" or went with something that "should work in theory" instead of intensely testing it. Thus you wind up with fixes that are worse than the supposed problem or other unintended consequences. I know that testing is a $ & time issue, but that is why you BUILD on your previous FOUR versions -- that is years of play-testing by the community for free (hell we paid to playtest :-D). If you plan on restarting from the ground up, then you better afford the time for proper testing--and for heavensake use your previous customers as the focus group.

[FearZeus]

use your previous customers as a focus group!

Yes agree with that m8, they wouldn't be in this mess had they done this in the first place! just looks like they can't be arsed anymore...

[Dionysus9]

I moved it to the "all my denari" thread at the .net