The Seleucid Empire

[williamsiddell]

Nope - just tested - the academy group don't give a law bonus. I saw the reference in the listing for the 2005 patch v1.2 - I presume they took it away again.

An example of possible issues with old posts. This is from a May 2013 patch:

'AI and game balancing improvements (including Phalanx AI, shield & arrow damage, siege weapons)'

[ReluctantSamurai]

An example of possible issues with old posts.

While there certainly can be issues with old posts, I believe that thread is still relevant, and the calculations valid. At least from my observations

There was a mod done using the Academy building line which added L & O features for those too frustrated (lazy) to figure out how to control unrest. Don't remember who did it, or where to find it.

[wooly_mammoth]

Hello the Org!

It's 2015 and the Seleucids are still defying history in my favorite strategy game.

I love having my back to the wall and having to fight against all odds for dear life, and that's exactly how the seleucids start out. By turn three, I was running backwards and punching left and right at 80% of the known world on sheer adrenaline. I was simultaneously besieged by Pontus, Armenia, Parthia (who sent their kind regards with cataphracts) and Egypt. The greeks backed off only because Carthage, Macedon and the Scipii decided to send them their good wishes personally. I broke all the sieges by making best use of what I had available: militia hoplites & militia cavalry, a few skirmishers and my generals charging in where the situation was most dire. That's how guys destined to be pencil pushers end up as heroic monarchs.

There was no time to rest after that, but things got much easier. I held the line at Sardis and Hatra and moved the war over to Parthia and Egypt, while an army of mercenaries besieged Hallicarnasus. The decisive battle against Egypt was played at a bridge in the Nile delta. I was lucky that Salamis revolted, and on the eve of 260 BC, Ptolemy's realm had been vanquished. After that, I had a smaller force march through the deserts to claim rebel settlements, while bigger armies moved against Arsakia, Pontus, Pergamum & Rhodes. Armenia was thus encircled, and they crumbled after a battle in the open plains, where my militia cavarly and scythed chariots out-maneuvered their horse archers, while their infantry was no match for my levy pikemen (there is no such thing as a bad unit if a good general is in command).

I always prioritize infrastructure, agriculture, health and culture over military, so the Eastern Mediterranean was brought under my rule with only tier 1 & 2 units. Now I moved against the Brutii in Greece with tier 3 armies (phalanx pikemen, greek cavalry, elephants and a few contigents of cretan archers). The curse of the Diadochii followed me however, and I lost the first battle against the romans: I was besieging Corinth which had a full garrison, and a smaller army attacked me from the field. I completely destroyed them in the field which left the city empty, but the game crashes no matter what option I pick (occupy/enslave/exterminate). I tried to fight the battle again and leave some of them alive so that the city is not emptied of forces, but though I'm pretty sure I killed less than 85% of them, the city was still emptied and the game crashed again, so I simply withdrew after they attacked (my army was stuck in place, I could not do it in my turn). No problem, because another army beached near Athens and took it with ease. Sneaky bastards.

While I keep the Brutii busy in Greece, my fleets with sail for Sicilly, so that I envelop Italy nicely and I avoid having the Scipii panic and cluster all of their armies near Capua (so annoying ). The game is very easy after the initial onslaught though, I think it will be smooth sailing until the end. All this on M/M.

[ReluctantSamurai]

and on the eve of 260 BC, Ptolemy's realm had been vanquished.

Defeating the Big E in 20 turns?.......

[wooly_mammoth]

Remember that I play on M/M. I imagine it is much harder on H or VH, but that kind of challenge is not to my liking. I also got lucky that they did not conquer any rebel settlements but simply joined the "let's gangbang the seleucids" movement along with the rest of my merry neighbors. I went completely banzai when that happened. I destroyed the doomstack led by Kyia just south of Damascus (and that's how Demetrius's plan of a quiet life as a pencil pusher went to Hades) and managed to storm Sidon and Jerusalem without overwhelming resistance. I met another couple of stacks down towards the Nile and eventually my army stopped just short of the bridge leading to Alexandria. I managed to get my general and some cav support on the bridge, with the phalanx as reinforcements. The biggest Egyptian army I have ever seen marched on that bridge, but phalanx accepts no substitutes. It's not the length of the spear that matters, it's how you poke with it.

Alexandria fell without much hassle and then there were a couple of more stacks near Memphis. I do not know when Salamis decided to revolt. I was assaulting the small garrison in Thebes just as I prepared Cleitos for a voyage out at sea with the conquest of Cyprus in mind, but when Thebes fell so was Egypt undone. They did have one family member left. He roamed the deserts for quite some while, plaguing my roads, but eventually a host of scythed chariots slaughtered him.

Anyhow, the lesson to be learned is that, at least on medium difficulty, you can move mountains in the early game with just militia hoplites and/or levy pikemen and militia cavalry. A cunning player could easily defeat such a force with a skirmisher army, but the computer isn't up to it.

[Vincent Butler]

Seleucids are great because with Militia Hoplites, you can weather the early storm of assaults on your towns. It is not a bad idea to get going to take out Egypt, although you can afford to wait. I typically am less aggressive, preferring to take coastal towns, heading towards Greece. I like to build up better units before going after Egypt to finish them off. Of course, off the bat, your units are just as good as theirs, minus the chariots that can wipe out your cav. But like I said, I am not all that aggressive as Seleucia or any civilized faction starting off. Once you get to pikemen, an effective strategy that I have mentioned before is pikemen with crossed pikes at a bridge, wipes out anything trying to come across. Have an onager, though, if fighting Rome or Egypt, to counter their onagers. I have not tried Seleucia for a while because I have already covered the map with them a long time ago. Now I am trying it with Scipii.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I like to build up better units before going after Egypt to finish them off.

I usually do something similar...snag Sidon and Jerusalem, beat off the incessant Big E stacks, and meantime take out Pontus and kick the Greek Cities out of Pergamum.

Remember that I play on M/M. I imagine it is much harder on H or VH, but that kind of challenge is not to my liking.

Yes it is harder, but I've found VH/H to be a nice medium. VH on the campaign map isn't really a huge difference, except that the army stacks you encounter will have better troops, including brigands. VH on the battle map is just too cheesy, IMHO. I've lost more than a few battles not through bad tactics or poor strategy, but simply because of the insane attack/morale boosts given to the AI. I just found that battles require such intensive micro-managing (one little mistake and it's ) that the fun factor disappears.

I do not know when Salamis decided to revolt.

Good chance that happened when Alexandria fell. The Pyramids have a 40% boost to loyalty in Ptolemaic cities. Salamis is still worth taking if only because it's a main trade node for the far eastern Med. Nodes from Tarsus, Antioch, Sidon, and Alexandria all pass through Salamis, giving you a big boost to naval trade.

[Vincent Butler]

I usually do something similar...snag Sidon and Jerusalem, beat off the incessant Big E stacks, and meantime take out Pontus and kick the Greek Cities out of Pergamum.



Yes it is harder, but I've found VH/H to be a nice medium. VH on the campaign map isn't really a huge difference, except that the army stacks you encounter will have better troops, including brigands. VH on the battle map is just too cheesy, IMHO. I've lost more than a few battles not through bad tactics or poor strategy, but simply because of the insane attack/morale boosts given to the AI. I just found that battles require such intensive micro-managing (one little mistake and it's ) that the fun factor disappears.



Good chance that happened when Alexandria fell. The Pyramids have a 40% boost to loyalty in Ptolemaic cities.

Memphis, not Alexandria, Alexandria has the Pharos.

I hate facing Egypt because they have an infinite number of large armies in any given area. I think they get a boost as well as Rome. Their units are not good enough to wipe out Seleucia, Pontus, and Armenia like they do.
I have noticed the boost to enemy troops, at least morale, just from E/E to M/M. Battles are harder, enemy also uses better strategy. Anyway, the campaign difficulty does not really change. Even riots don't really increase from E to M.

[wooly_mammoth]

Interesting point on the connection between the revolt in Salamis and the conquest of the pyramids. My understanding was that if a foreign faction controls the pyramids -> no culture penalty is received in egyptian cities -> therefore, the pyramids are actually useless to the egyptians themselves.

Anyhow, returning to the seleucid early military strategy, there are two more points I'd like to touch: mercenaries & chariots.

It is the first campaign where I actually needed a mercenary army. I used a mercenary-only force (hoplites, peltasts, thracians, slingers and archers) to take Hallicarnassus and the important islands in the East Med. (Rhodes, Cyprus and Crete). Some of them have good garrisons, so if you plan to take them very early it can be costly only with militia hoplites & jav cav, but not impossible. Mercenaries however are very good for the job. In other parts of the early campaign I haven't found that much need for mercs, but they are still helpful. Bedouin archers are nice, but haven't had a decivise role. Some arab cavalry (on horseback, not camels) is useful in Hatra because armenian early armies retreat very quickly once the battle swings in your favor, and hoplites alone cannot catch up with them. When sieging parthian towns, desert infantry can be used as fodder for their slingers and horse archers. Don't just stand there and take the heat though, as soon as the walls are breached rush them in, they can fight everything Parthia has to offer at that stage.

As for seleucid chariots, they cannot be used as lawn-mowers like the egyptian ones (back and forth through the enemy until everything is destroyed, it even works against roman legions). My strategy is to use the phalanx to maneuver the enemy army in the position I like, and then I give the scythed chariots one shot at glory, making them pierce through the enemy where I feel it would be most effective (most damage to morale, basically). I just run them through once and then it's over for them, I rush them away from the enemy and only engage them again when the army is is shambles. Prolong fighting will always make them go berserk. Another use for them if things aren't too hot is to have them run around the rear of the enemy lines, just for the fear they instill, or have them blitz a lone cavalry unit/general (killed the king of Pontus and a greek general this way).

[ReluctantSamurai]

Memphis, not Alexandria, Alexandria has the Pharos.

Try not to get old, gentlemen...memory is the first thing to go.....

therefore, the pyramids are actually useless to the egyptians themselves.

Quite possible, but....I rarely play the Big E (actually, never anymore) so I couldn't say. I have seen Salamis with a population in excess of 30k with no family member present and a meager garrison, and remain loyal.

I just run them through once and then it's over for them, I rush them away from the enemy and only engage them again when the army is is shambles.

Try using a cavalry unit in close echelon with those chariots...the effect on disorganized enemy units is even more devastating

[wooly_mammoth]

Try using a cavalry unit in close echelon with those chariots...the effect on disorganized enemy units is even more devastating

In think that in this very thread the opposite of what I am about to say is written, but I am fairly certain that chariots enganged in combat inflict friendly damage, that is they can slaughter your own cavalry even without running amok. I think what you propose is a good idea if you take precautions to have the chariots in a safe advance from your cav force, I may try it out when I have shock cav if I still use chariots in my armies by then. The plan is to transition to elephants against the romans, mainly for fun (the army itself should be fine without them). Before this I played Egypt and used the lawn-mower strategy described above. I had given up completely on egyptian cavalry since it was just too light to go against roman heavy infantry.

What I usually like to do with a seleucid army against the romans is to advance with the phalanx at a steady pace, and use cavalry just to keep the flanks clean. I save the death charge for when the enemy is about to break as a whole, because at least the roman AI tends to use some rudimentary manipular tactics, so if you sweep in too deep with the cav they can be swamped by forces from the deeper lines rushing in.

My campaign has progressed a bit, I just took Corinth and Larissa from the Brutii. In the Balkans I will hold the line here, probably invade Thermon when they get a city barracks. Meanwhile, I prepare my armies for the invasion of Sicilly, from where I will branch up into Carthage, Sardinia and Italy. If I can spare the money, I will have another army make a beachhead and Byzantium while I drive into Thessaly from Larissa. Too bad the dalmatian coast is still underdeveloped, I never like to invade small towns because of the lacking infrastructure.

[Vincent Butler]

It is the first campaign where I actually needed a mercenary army. I used a mercenary-only force (hoplites, peltasts, thracians, slingers and archers) to take Hallicarnassus and the important islands in the East Med. (Rhodes, Cyprus and Crete).

I hear you there.

As for seleucid chariots, they cannot be used as lawn-mowers like the egyptian ones (back and forth through the enemy until everything is destroyed, it even works against roman legions).

If you are controlling the chariots. When I am Rome, and the enemy attacks with chariots, their chariots get owned.

Another use for them if things aren't too hot is to have them run around the rear of the enemy lines, just for the fear they instill, or have them blitz a lone cavalry unit/general (killed the king of Pontus and a greek general this way).

A very good idea, chariots own cav, and can even take out Generals, as you found out. But when Rome gets their Armoured Generals, it will not be as easy, though the tactic should still work. But watch out for missile units, they will decimate your Scythed Chariots. Even slingers own chariots if the chariots do not engage them. Sorry, RS, I brought up stone-chuckers again.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Sorry, RS, I brought up stone-chuckers again

Actually, your opinion (and use) of them is more historical than mine, which is much more game mechanics driven and probably personal choice, as well

I am fairly certain that chariots enganged in combat inflict friendly damage, that is they can slaughter your own cavalry even without running amok.

This is probably the case, as ellies, similarly, can demolish your own troops when they go bezerk. The secret to echelon work between your cavalry and your chariots is timing. Never point your chariots to direct engagement (which it sounds like you don't do), but pick a spot behind enemy lines you want the chariots to get to (double time, of course). Once they begin to clear the front lines, and remain cohesive, send in the cav. Chariots don't create many kills (much like ellies) but create confusion and loss of formation cohesiveness....a situation ripe for a cavalry charge. I've broken Roman Cohorts using this method. Granted they have a bigger chance of hammering your chariots and....the follow-up cavalry were experienced Companions

[wooly_mammoth]

Ok, here's an update on my campaign. Premarian romans get so obliterated by tier 3 seleucid armies it is not even funny. My border cities in Greece are Apollonia, Thermon, Larissa and Thessalonica. I am allied and got military treatise with Macedonia, but they only have Byzantum and Cyrene now. I will take Bylazora from the thracians and give it back to them. In the west I have occupied the entire Sicily, so Italy is pretty much surrounded. The next phase is to launch a triple prong on Carthage, Capua and Croton.

My standard army is made of a phalanx of 8 units, 1-2 generals and 2 baby ellies, the rest is greek cav (only exception is an army in Greece where I have less cav but 4 four units of killer cretan archers). I know greek cav is not very good but they crush by sheer numbers. What I do is advance steadily with the phalanx, with the generals and ellies in a column on the left wing, and the greek cav on the right wing. When the phalanx gets down to business, I swing the greek cav around and that's when the entire roman army breaks and flees, no matter what.

I already feel sorry for these guys. By the time they go Marius I will have replaced greek cav with silver/silver katatanks, so the roman legions will have the chance to show their worth at running from the field before losing even 15% of their force.

[Vincent Butler]

I already feel sorry for these guys. By the time they go Marius I will have replaced greek cav with silver/silver katatanks, so the roman legions will have the chance to show their worth at running from the field before losing even 15% of their force.

You would be better off with Companions, in my opinion. Only downside is level of stables needed for companions.
The elephants are why they rout so quickly. Enemy morale takes a hit more for the enemy than your guys, at least at the lower levels (which is all I have ever played at) But a cav charge in the back of an engaged enemy is always an effective strategy, even better with Cataphracts or Companions. And here I go again, being Captain Obvious.
My Greek Cav (of course, I just completed a campaign as Greece, so that was really all I had) only fill the role of light cav, or like you do, hitting from the rear. Not all that effective against Cohort, except that they were hitting cohort fighting Armoured Hoplites. I love Armoured Hoplites. Just they are not good on the walls against Praetorian Cohort. Then again, what non-Roman unit would be good on the walls against Praetorian, except maybe Chosen Axemen?

[wooly_mammoth]

Hmm, let's see:

1. actually, my ideal end-game seleucid army would be:

8 SS pikes
4 SS legionaries
2 kataellies
3 katatanks
2 companions
1 armored general

Katatanks are for the self-perpetuating hammer blow in the right flank. Think of it as the right hook to the jaw or liver. They are shock troops though, not endurance cavarly, so it's up to the companions to chase the enemy down or slip through an opening to hit a vital point in the back of the army, Alexander-style. I do not have level 5 stables yet, so currently I rely on greek cav to finish off units after katatanks have scattered them. In my first battle with katas, each had about 200 kills and none had lost more than 9 guys lol. Most kills were from death-charges by bloodthirsty maniacs wearing metal sacks, they did little to no chasing of routers. They also maced some SPQR dude to death, that was fun to watch, though some people may call me weird because of it.

2. My three-pronged strike worked pretty awesome: Vibius Julius himself came to defend Tarentum. The guy was 76 and actually had a legionary army trained at a big Temple of Mars. My seleucid army was still a tier 3 one, but those phalanx pikemen are really resilient bastards. I was lucky that the game did not crash (I was attacked during the enemy's turn), but the city was occupied after that without the screen with occupy/enslave/exterminate to appear. So, it was simply occupied, and now I stand at 15% public happiness lol. I hope they won't rebel. An army of SPQR came to defend Capua, but they ended up impaled on SS pikes, bludgeoned by katas and trampled by war ellies. I am ready to assault Carthage. It has a rather small garrison and no reinforcements in sight.

Now, I must stress that:

a) I HATE the romans . It's about 220 BC, and these filhty barbarians still have dirt roads, basic ports (unable to repair my triremes argh SO mad) and NO TOILETS anywhere. Primitives.

b) The Seleucid Empire is actually on the edge of bankruptcy. Corruption is killing me. Most of the money I make from trade & taxes goes into army upkeep, which is ok since I still make loads of cash from farming and mining. However, almost all of that pile of cash is lost on corruption. I am now at the point where I stopped building completely, in order to not get in the red zone. Never had such an economic crisis before. I really miss law. My army has a decent size, I have forces at my frontiers or points of expansion, garrisons of militia hoplites as they are needed and a few units of chariots to kill rebels through the deserts. I do have a big fleet but it is necessary to keep the roman ships at bay. It is however annoying that a fleet of gold chevroned 9 biremes + 6 triremes cannot sink a pathetic roman bireme in one battle. I need to chase it down about three times before it dies(?!?!?!).

[ReluctantSamurai]

Corruption is killing me. Most of the money I make from trade & taxes goes into army upkeep, which is ok since I still make loads of cash from farming and mining.

Build Temples of Asklepios in any city that's not going to be a recruitment center (Temple of Hephaestus for those). Asklepios is the best law & order temple the Seleucids have.

Ideally, army upkeep + wages should be around 50% of your total income, although it can be higher once your treasury gets stupidly rich. Quite frankly, you are carrying too many troops for your current level of infrastructure development

Farming and mining income are important for any economy, but....port trading brings in more income than both of those combined Get those Shipwrights and Dockyards built ASAP. A basic port can handle only a single trade node...a Shipwright can handle two...a Dockyard three. I pointed out earlier that Salamis was a major trade node for the Eastern Med. Crete is the key to the Central Med...it's the major connection between Anatolia and Greece. Caralis is the key to the Western Med, for all the same reasons.

It's about 220 BC, and these filhty barbarians still have dirt roads, basic ports (unable to repair my triremes argh SO mad) and NO TOILETS anywhere. Primitives.

One of the reasons for that is the difficulty level you are playing at. At higher settings, after 50 years, the Romans would be much more developed.

It is however annoying that a fleet of gold chevroned 9 biremes + 6 triremes cannot sink a pathetic roman bireme in one battle. I need to chase it down about three times before it dies

Pinball naval battles is a sad fact of life with R1 You have to actually occupy all eight points of the compass to sink a fleet outright. When I'm after a fleet that is carrying troops, I split off enough ships from a fleet (or two) to get that done. A single ship will do...just make sure you attack with your main fleet as they are the ones who will incur the losses. Try pinning an enemy fleet against shorelines, or better yet, in port. Both require fewer ships to get the job done.

now I stand at 15% public happiness lol. I hope they won't rebel.

If a coliseum is present, use games to increase happiness. Recruit a few peasant units, and reduce taxes to the lowest setting. You will not be pleased with the results if you get kicked out of Tarentum...

BTW, where is your capital?

[wooly_mammoth]

Just moved to capital to Rhodes and the situation over the entire empire is mostly stabilized. Only Susa is a bit mad now, hopefully I won't see a big army of even angrier elephants marching out.

Anyway:

1. Asklepios temples don't give law. They are good for faraway lands, and I build them there anyway, but for law the only options are Dyonisius and Hephaestus both at Pantheon level. The bonus is very small anyway, only 10%, which does little to nothing against corruption. In my previous Big E. campaign, corruption was all but non-existent, with the insane Horus/Set + secret police tree combo. I had an army about 3-4 times the size of the current one, same for fleets and still had more money than I could spend. That taffing corruption.

2. as far as I know, higher campaign map difficulty also means more cheating for the AI, at least in terms of money. Armywise I find the AI is ridiculous enough as it is, with doomstack after doomstack while not having by any terms the sort of infrastructure required to maintain those armies. Hell, when I played the Scipii I didn't become a billionaire until I invaded Egypt, while the AI just sits in barren Africa and still affords a whooping ~15 doomstacks.

3. i tried your tip with complete surround, still doesn't work. Guess it's back to chasing a paper raft across the high seas with the whole armada.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Asklepios temples don't give law.

True, but they give the biggest boost to economy at pantheon level and the traits conferred are all good. Dionysis should only be used where you need population growth, and then replaced with either Asklepios or Hephaestis....every trait conferred is bad and gets progressively worse at higher levels.

Armywise I find the AI is ridiculous enough as it is, with doomstack after doomstack while not having by any terms the sort of infrastructure required to maintain those armies.

AFAIK, only the Romans get such economic "cheats", and even that's not confirmable without access to game code. I play Armenia alot, and I can tell you that a complete blockade brings the Big E to its knees, economically, despite the Nile Delta riches.

i tried your tip with complete surround, still doesn't work.

But it does. You have to occupy all eight points on the compass. There is no exit square from the battle so a fleet that loses is destroyed. I've done it many times so I know it works

I had an army about 3-4 times the size of the current one, same for fleets and still had more money than I could spend. That taffing corruption.

It's not the corruption, it's your trade balance. I've played the Selkies many, many times and had treasuries into the millions well before the games end. I repeat...port trading brings in more denarii than all other forms of income...combined. When you get all port cities to dockyard level, and all your trade nodes connected, your income will go up dramatically. Trade agreements with neutrals doubles your trade with that faction, so don't ignore diplomacy

[wooly_mammoth]

I think you are right about the economy. I usually get an economic crash in the mid to late game, but never so serious as the current one (I think I am starting to recover from it though). Anyhow, just one comment about the fleet thing. I know it should work as you say, but even if I occupy all 8 locations, the enemy ship runs away through the squares where my ships are located. I saw this once with an annoying gaul army too. It was completely surrounded (an army of mine in each of the eight squares) and yet the guys just retreaded through the squares occupied by my forces.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I think you are right about the economy.

While I don't consider myself an elite RTW player, the economic aspect is something I've perfected, IMHO. My ZPG strategy is the crown jewel for R1 economics.

I know it should work as you say, but even if I occupy all 8 locations, the enemy ship runs away through the squares where my ships are located.

Strange Sounds like a bug. If all exit squares from a battle are blocked (land or sea), then an army or fleet caught in this way should be destroyed if they attempt to flee

CA didn't seem to do much better with naval battles in R2...most players just auto-calc them anyway, despite being able to fight them manually. STW2 seems to be the pinnacle of their design skills in that area

Like your avatar, btw....an angry elllie is hopefully one of your own

[Vincent Butler]

Hmm, let's see:

1. actually, my ideal end-game seleucid army would be:

8 SS pikes
4 SS legionaries
2 kataellies
3 katatanks
2 companions
1 armored general

Katatanks are for the self-perpetuating hammer blow in the right flank. Think of it as the right hook to the jaw or liver. They are shock troops though, not endurance cavarly, so it's up to the companions to chase the enemy down or slip through an opening to hit a vital point in the back of the army, Alexander-style. I do not have level 5 stables yet, so currently I rely on greek cav to finish off units after katatanks have scattered them. In my first battle with katas, each had about 200 kills and none had lost more than 9 guys lol. Most kills were from death-charges by bloodthirsty maniacs wearing metal sacks, they did little to no chasing of routers. They also maced some SPQR dude to death, that was fun to watch, though some people may call me weird because of it.

2. My three-pronged strike worked pretty awesome: Vibius Julius himself came to defend Tarentum. The guy was 76 and actually had a legionary army trained at a big Temple of Mars. My seleucid army was still a tier 3 one, but those phalanx pikemen are really resilient bastards. I was lucky that the game did not crash (I was attacked during the enemy's turn), but the city was occupied after that without the screen with occupy/enslave/exterminate to appear. So, it was simply occupied, and now I stand at 15% public happiness lol. I hope they won't rebel. An army of SPQR came to defend Capua, but they ended up impaled on SS pikes, bludgeoned by katas and trampled by war ellies. I am ready to assault Carthage. It has a rather small garrison and no reinforcements in sight.

Now, I must stress that:

a) I HATE the romans . It's about 220 BC, and these filhty barbarians still have dirt roads, basic ports (unable to repair my triremes argh SO mad) and NO TOILETS anywhere. Primitives.

b) The Seleucid Empire is actually on the edge of bankruptcy. Corruption is killing me. Most of the money I make from trade & taxes goes into army upkeep, which is ok since I still make loads of cash from farming and mining. However, almost all of that pile of cash is lost on corruption. I am now at the point where I stopped building completely, in order to not get in the red zone. Never had such an economic crisis before. I really miss law. My army has a decent size, I have forces at my frontiers or points of expansion, garrisons of militia hoplites as they are needed and a few units of chariots to kill rebels through the deserts. I do have a big fleet but it is necessary to keep the roman ships at bay. It is however annoying that a fleet of gold chevroned 9 biremes + 6 triremes cannot sink a pathetic roman bireme in one battle. I need to chase it down about three times before it dies(?!?!?!).

I don't think I have ever seen Cataphracts go to maces, but I don't play factions that train them much, and I don't watch their fights much as I am an infantry general.
I don't use Silver Shield Legionaries much because of the level of barracks needed to train them, same with Companions, though by the time I get to Rome they have most of that stuff already there for me.
Rome usually has their sewers in place, even if I get there quickly, of course if I am in Rome quickly it is because I started from Greece or Macedon.
Elephants don't help with the money supply, their upkeep is large, don't know the comparison between levels of elephants, but they are pretty spendy. Elephants are worth it to Seleucia, because they OWN chariots. I typically use one army till I start piling in the money, focusing on one particular area (usually Greece, sometimes Spain). Then I go to two. Once you get Greece and Turkey, you can run with two or three, throw Italy in there and you can go with four or five. I have had as many as eight armies (mainly to regarrison so my main armies could just move on and conquer). Not good for the money supply, I was not really losing much, but was not really gaining much either. But that was later in my Greece campaign.
I use regular armies as garrison, in case I get kicked out I want to be able to fight back. Still, by the end of my Greek campaign I had over 14 million denarii. Almost no Militia Hoplites, either. My typical garrison was 3 or 4 Hoplites, 4 or 3 Armoured Hoplites, 2 Greek Cav, 2 Archers, and maybe 2 Heavy Peltasts and an Onager in towns that like to riot.

[wooly_mammoth]

@Vincent

The main purposes I have in mind for SS legionaries are:

a) in field battles, have them support one of the wings of the phalanx, in case I am up against overwhelming numbers that can try to surround.

b) in sieges, have them walk up in testudo formation up to the breaches made by sappers, to draw arrow fire from the towers. With cover given, cataphracts can then charge blindly on and deliver their message of tolerance and civility.

As a side note, in case you are not aware, almost all cavarly has an alternative attack, activated by having the ALT key pressed when you order them to charge. They will use their spears in the initial charge, but then switch to swords. Spears are more effective when fighting other horses, but swords are better against infantry. The two notable exceptions I know are Cataphracts and Nile Cavalry, who use maces and axes. For Cataphracts, maces are most effective in nearly all situations since they are armor piercing, which nullifies a lot of the protection of heavy infantry like legionaries. They can also destroy stuff like praetorian cavarly or roman armored generals with very few casualties of their own. Extremely effective. I think that the axes Nile Cavalry use are also armor piercing, but I haven't used them much in the Egypt campaign since heavy chariots are always better than cavarly for that faction, given that their cav is just too light to tackle heavy forces.

[Vincent Butler]

I did not know about the alternate attack, I only thought that worked with missile cav. Yeah, the legionaries on the flanks is good, and I love SS Legionaries, but I don't like the barracks level needed. I like filling that role with Heavy Peltasts, Illyrian Mercenaries, or Spanish Mercenaries. Mercenary Warband do in a pinch, but they are not great, and Eastern Mercenaries even worse. Bastarnae/Thracians are good too, but kind of limited, same for Spanish Mercenaries. Bastarnae having the two hit points is really nice.
Nice thing about fighting Rome so early is you encounter their dogs. Cataphracts vs dogs...buwahaha.

[ReluctantSamurai]

in field battles, have them support one of the wings of the phalanx

They are also useful in screening cavalry out on the flanks. The AI looks for "bookish" matchups and the "book" sez that spears have the advantage over cavalry. But the "book" fails to note that Cats are no ordinary cavalry, hence one sees idiotic suicide charges by Roman Triarii (Auxillia, later) straight into Cats on the flank. Not that the Cats can't deal with this themselves, but I don't like getting them bogged down fighting unnecessary battles. SS Legionaires work great picking off these idiots before they tie up the cavalry.

Spears are more effective when fighting other horses, but swords are better against infantry.

Oh for several units of Naginata Cavalry

Like Vincent, I tend to use Illyrians, Spanish Mercs, and Heavy Peltasts to do the same job, but I always have at least one barracks that can turn out SS. When I get to Western Anatolia and later into Macedonia, gotta have the Bastarnae Just love those guys.

Cataphracts vs dogs...buwahaha.

Heheheh......SPLAT!

[wooly_mammoth]

Well, this just turned into a pretty intense campaign.

Karalis was very lightly defended, so I stormed it with a few pikes and got a new province. However, it does not even have a port yet (220 BC!) so it's largely useless. My expansion against the romans is pretty much halted at this point, because I cannot leave the newly conquered provinces without provoking mass riots, even though I exterminated at every single ocassion. I'm building toilets and asklepios temples everywhere, as well as recruit levy pikes to help garisson when I'm gone. However, the romans are marching against me. The Julii made it all the way into the steppes, if they decide to cross over the Caucasus Mountains things will be getting hot . Good thing I fortified all of the passes. Also, the Scipii decided to cross the taffing Lybian desert, which they never did in my egyptian campaign . I still hope most of their guys will be streaming for Carthage, where they will get obliterated by my crack army which will acquire many many chevrons. In my second major battle with katatanks those maniacs once again scored about 200 kills per unit. I wish I was a cataphract sigh.

By the way, the macedonians. Those hateful bastards. I was always very very nice to them, gave them free money when I was rich, also free map information, trade, alliance and military access into my lands. They owe to me the fact that they still exist. The belt of provinces they have (Salona, Bylazora, Byzantium) was mostly given by me to them, to have them as a buffer between me and the Julii. However, those ungrateful curs charged me a whooping 20k denarii in exchange for military access, so that seleucid blood may be spilled in order to protect their cities from the romans.

Anyway, if I make it out alive from the current pickle, the plan is to smash into Rome and the last Brutii city in Italy (they only have Segestica left once that is gone). Then, the two armies can just march all the way up to the Alps. If I'd manage to train a new army and send it over to Cirta, I could also expand to the west and south in Africa and win the campaign (not sure how many more provices I need at this point, about 10 including Rome I think).

[ReluctantSamurai]

By the way, the macedonians.

You're learning the hard way about Greeks in R1...despite the fact that you are one yourself. Never, ever, trust a Greek faction in this game. EVER!

Karalis was very lightly defended, so I stormed it with a few pikes and got a new province. However, it does not even have a port yet (220 BC!) so it's largely useless.

You will probably finish before you can get to Dockyard status there, but develop the port as far as it will go...

Also, the Scipii decided to cross the taffing Lybian desert, which they never did in my egyptian campaign

They always get across eventually in my Armenian campaigns. One big factor in your favor...distance. Don't let them occupy Siwa or you will have a blue hornets nest right in your backyard. Make them have to march all the way across the desert.

Speaking of desert warfare...consider an all cavalry army to cover the vast stretches of endless sand. You can wipe out several stacks in a single turn with the same army...very economical While the Selkies don't get Cat Archers, Ellies, Heavy Cats, and Chariots will do quite nicely

I'm building toilets

Careful about getting these to max level. City Plumbing actually adds to corruption and unrest....go figure that one

[wooly_mammoth]

Only romans get plumbing but it makes sense to have negative effects because:

a) smart guys try to find ways to circumvent the official supply system -> they don't pay bills -> loss of money.

b) I guess that if they start making little baby romans for your armies too loudly, neighbours bang on the pipes -> heightening of general unrest.

The Scipii already took Siwa but it's a complete dirthole. I'll probably storm it and hand it over to the macedonians, since it's too small for me to use and easier to defend with macedonian allies.

[Vincent Butler]

even though I exterminated at every single ocassion.

What level are these cities at? Because that could be your money problem. I know RS has said this in other threads, but exterminating, especially on the smaller towns, hurts your money situation in the long run. It provides a nice immediate sum of cash, but more people equals more money. The more people you kill, the less people to pay taxes, and the longer it takes to get a city to a profit.

the macedonians.

They may have Cyrene as well, it does revolt to them if not taken over quickly enough.

[wooly_mammoth]

Tier 4 cities in all cases. Extermination is a necessity because otherwise they would just kick me out the next turn and the romans get a huge army for free out of nowhere. After occupying Sicily, two provinces in Italy and Carthage my trade profits increased by 20k+ (could be tons more if they had bigger ports but meh), but I forgot to check how the taxing profits changed.

Anyway, the pickle is exclusively my fault for forgetting (underestimating) how crippling corruption can be. Hell, my egyptian empire had an identical span and worse infrastructure (they don't get dockyard) but having no corruption at all from the insane law bonuses, I could have coated the Caucasus in gold and still have money to spare. Right now I'm tight with cash but on an increasing trend, I can't wait to be able to leave my newly conquered cities without fear of rebellion and deliver more pain to the romans.

And yes, the macedonians have Cyrene (dirthole). They only had Cyrene and Byzantium at one point, but I conquered Bylazora and Salona for them. It's nice to have a buffer against the Julii. Salona and Bylazora are easy to aid since I have armies camped nearby, but helping at Byzantium is difficult (though just for fun I might send my anatolian gold chevroned scythed chariots over the hellespont to see if they have truly earned their valor ).