The Greek Cities

[wumpus]

I found playing the Greek cities rather easy... gave up because I was fed up with their cavalry...the other cavalry the Greeks could recruit are on the point of useless. While the infantry are too slow moving...

Ave. This, my dear 5thJulius, is the entire point of Total War: the balance of power. You got an infantry force almost impossible to vanquish (add in some missiles like slingers and archers) but, for the sake of balance, you've got a seemingly weak cavalry. Imagine if your force were Spartan hoplites supported by a couple of elephant units, merc archers and slingers, and heavy artillery such as the late Romans have, and perhaps you could find some merc Sarmatian cavalry or horse archers from Asia...I imagine the only way to defeat you is if brimstone rained down from heaven, but no human army can! So you have a strong (but slow-moving) infantry with weak cavalry for balance in the game (and it was how it really was in history).
But why don't you try using militia cavalry for your Greeks (of course, with a generous number of hoplites and some archers or slingers!)--your cav skirmishes with the enemy, throw some javelins, then retreat behind your phallanx, only to re-join the battle much later when it's time to chase down the routing enemies (who by this time wouldn't care about anything in the world at all except to reach the safety of the hills). Personally, I prefer militia cavalry over the (lancer) Greek cavalry--they're more useful to me. Only be careful: they run out of ammo very fast (and so do the peltasts)!!
Hawooh.

[mrdun]

Ave. This, my dear 5thJulius, is the entire point of Total War: the balance of power. You got an infantry force almost impossible to vanquish (add in some missiles like slingers and archers) but, for the sake of balance, you've got a seemingly weak cavalry. Imagine if your force were Spartan hoplites supported by a couple of elephant units, merc archers and slingers, and heavy artillery such as the late Romans have, and perhaps you could find some merc Sarmatian cavalry or horse archers from Asia...I imagine the only way to defeat you is if brimstone rained down from heaven, but no human army can! So you have a strong (but slow-moving) infantry with weak cavalry for balance in the game (and it was how it really was in history).
But why don't you try using militia cavalry for your Greeks (of course, with a generous number of hoplites and some archers or slingers!)--your cav skirmishes with the enemy, throw some javelins, then retreat behind your phallanx, only to re-join the battle much later when it's time to chase down the routing enemies (who by this time wouldn't care about anything in the world at all except to reach the safety of the hills). Personally, I prefer militia cavalry over the (lancer) Greek cavalry--they're more useful to me. Only be careful: they run out of ammo very fast (and so do the peltasts)!!
Hawooh.

The lack of cav makes the greeks rather one dimensional IMO

[Quintus.JC]

It's hard to chase down the routers without proper cavalry. at least early on the Roman had Equites, who are rather fine cavalry, but the Greeks really lacks any professonal cavalry at all. While their infantry can't march more than 2 miles an hour. making them a slow and rather boring faction. while i'd prefer Parthia over Greece. although the Greeks do have an interesting starting position

[mrdun]

They have money and powerful infantry. CA could not really give them more. The game needs to be balanced

[Quintus.JC]

They have money and powerful infantry. CA could not really give them more. The game needs to be balanced

True true.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

There is one constant complaint about the Greeks. Woeful calvary. I found a mild solution to a large problem. Clump your cavalry into concentrated group. Five militia cavalry bunched together is bound to provide for at least one decent flanking, right?

[mrdun]

Ahh the bunch and run technique!!

[Quintus.JC]

There is one constant complaint about the Greeks. Woeful calvary. I found a mild solution to a large problem. Clump your cavalry into concentrated group. Five militia cavalry bunched together is bound to provide for at least one decent flanking, right?

Militia cavalry is better used to chase routers after running out of ammos, Greek cavalry are better flankers when clumped into a concentrated group.

[Quirinus]

It's hard to chase down the routers without proper cavalry. at least early on the Roman had Equites, who are rather fine cavalry, but the Greeks really lacks any professonal cavalry at all. While their infantry can't march more than 2 miles an hour. making them a slow and rather boring faction. while i'd prefer Parthia over Greece. although the Greeks do have an interesting starting position

I disagree. True, the Militia Cav is pretty lousy-- their ammo runs out fast, and, charge them into anything other than other skirmishers, and you might as well have run them into a brick wall. But I always find it useful to have a couple of Militia Cav units in my army, as a screen against skirmishers, and for chasing routed troops, especially routed generals. With the Hoplite+Militia-Cav combo, I assassinated a lot of generals. The Equites.... well, they're okay, but they are neither faster than generals' bodyguards, nor do they pack a lot of punch, making them decent in the early game, but quickly becoming mediocre as the game progresses.

I don't particularly like the Greek Cavalry, for reasons similar to why I dislike the Equites, with one difference-- at Tier III, it is far too high-tier for its mediocre stats. Cavalry like these require constant retraining, something that is much easier to do with the Tier II Equites than it is with the Tier III Greek Cav. The only Greek Cavs I have in my army are a couple of them I got when I bribed a small Macedonian army outside Larissa, way back.

As for the phalanx, I suppose it's a different playing style. It's more deliberate, which IMO isn't too much of a drawback, as normal infantry does not maneuver exceptionally well anyway. Like the Parthians, if you play it like the good ol' Romans or Carthagenians, you're going to be really frustrated.

I like to think the Greek army composition as highly specialised-- the hoplites are pretty damn hard to dislodge once in position, but their flank is very vulnerable; the Militia Cavs are very fast, but have crappy ammo and melee stats.

[Quintus.JC]

I'd still prefer Macedon over Greece anyday.

[mrdun]

I'd still prefer Macedon over Greece anyday.

They both have pikes and money but macedon do have the edge...their cav.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

I don't particularly like the Greek Cavalry, for reasons similar to why I dislike the Equites, with one difference-- at Tier III, it is far too high-tier for its mediocre stats. Cavalry like these require constant retraining, something that is much easier to do with the Tier II Equites than it is with the Tier III Greek Cav. The only Greek Cavs I have in my army are a couple of them I got when I bribed a small Macedonian army outside Larissa, way back.

I wish to emphasize this issue. On the campaign map, cavalry are the first units in your army to deteriorate. With that being said, you must be able to repair them with out having to hold up the rest of your army. Greek cavalry require Cavalry Stables in order to retrain, and in turn Cavalry Stables requires a minor city.
I'm sorry, but when your out in the frigid north slicing up barbarians, finding the nearest Calvary Stables to repair your pitiful greek cav is a logistical nightmare. Aquincum is a long walk from Sparta, if you know what I mean.

To ameliorate a big problem, I propose this...well... proposal. Use Militia Cavalry. I beseech you. Use them!! First of all, by the time 250 BC rolls around, any Large Town that is worth it's salt, is going to have a Stables. This solves the before mentioned logistical nightmare.

Second reason. Any Rome Total War player worth his salt on the battle field will be able to find a way to use them effectively. My personal way to use them, is to overlap them in groups of 2+ on either side of your army. Now that they are bunched up they support each other's morale, and significantly add to each other's shock value. I don't care if you're even an Urban Cohort, if 4 tightly packed malitia cavalry are about slam into your flank, you're gonna feel it.
A word to the wise though: Make sure that you turn off fire at will, lest you suffer untold amounts of friendly fire. Also, make sure you attack your target while holding <alt>, otherwise your malitia cav will only throw javalins and play a dainty game of skirmish with the Urbans.

Maybe my battlefield tactic requires a little bit of micro management, but the convenience it provides on the campaign map more than makes up for it. What I'm trying to post is that if your an greek faction player, you should give the malitia cavalry a chance. Have a little faith in them, and they will far surpass your expectations.

[wumpus]

Ahoy, Good Ship. Yeh, you really said what I would've said: my sentiments exactly--use militia cav, turn off fire-at-will, etc. But here's what I'll add: when you play RTW (or any _TW or their offshoots) you really are the imperator--those many generals only serve under you. But also, even if you're the supreme commander, you can't really choose the type of troops you feel you really should have. It depends on the people (culture=faction) you play, the state of urban development, your wealth and economy, etc. In short, what troops are available to you, let your military talent show as to how you extract your victory. I had one past battle as Greek when all I had were one archer unit, one armored hoplite, and 6 militia hoplites--and was able to defeat the Seleucids with a chariot unit (which is more of merely a terror unit, actually) and some (maybe 3 or 4) cavalry, with the Eastern Infantry. Well, it was another Phyrrhic victory, in fact I lost more men than just decimated, but the point is Greeks are poor in cavalry and you've got to do what much good you can do with the situation. The main point is, enjoy the game that you're playing; enjoy even your defeats. Hawooh.
@ QuintusJulius: Well, like I said in the RTW-vs-M2TW thread (the issue was, which of the 2 is the better game to play), one man's poison is another man's candy. You don't like to play Greeks that much, well O.K. Me, I enjoy the challenge (difficulty) of the uphill fight as Greek, with my lousy cavalry+great but slow infantry+whatever mercs my money can afford. I whipped Romans and Macedonians in 2 different campaigns playing Greek, and will do so again in the future, and I'm happy. You should be happy with your Macedonians too, maybe you could become the next Megas Alexandros and conquer all lands from Britain to India. Hawooh.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

Well said, noble wumpus.
The beauty of this game is that it picks you up and drops you straight into the shoes of the generals back then. The generals didn't always get the troops they wanted, but they still had to fight. This game mirrors that feeling. Sure, it would be nice to sprinkle in some heavy cavalry to go along with the spartans, but that isn't an option.

What we have to say can be best summed up in the quote by Confucius:
Adversity reveals the true genius of a general, good fortune conceals it.

Some may see the greek's cavalry as only being a detriment, but I see it as a way to consecrate my skills as a battlefield general. It's a way to show that the sweat off my back is of greater importance in battle than any unit's stats, no matter how poor.

[Quirinus]

And, it emulates the apprehension a general must feel when he sees an army three times the size of his own, and the elation after victory in a particularly grisly battle. In fact, I just conquered Capua in my Greek game. :D The Brutii went down easier because I sunk two fleets full of family members and dangerous units, but I had no such luck with the Scipii.

Another thing fun about playing as the Greeks-- with the craploads of money you make per turn, bribing is much easier, and since you are practically surrounded by other Greek factions, bribing not only weakens your foes, but strengthens your own military as well. A high point was when I stormed Thrace-owned Byzantium with troops I just bribed from them outside the city.

They both have pikes and money but macedon do have the edge...their cav.

Yeah, but Macedon's phalanx units don't hold a candle to the true-blue Greek ones. I dunno, but for me, I could never get back to the sarissae phalanx after experiencing the Armoured Hoplite.

[Quintus.JC]

Pikemen seems to rout too easily when assulted on the flanks or rear, but hoplites tend to stay and fight longer when that happens, espcially Spartan and Armoured.

[Hound of Ulster]

the Spartans never break, while the armoured hopilites cut through Roman pre-reform infantry like a hot knife through butter.

[Hannibalbarc]

the Spartans never break, while the armoured hopilites cut through Roman pre-reform infantry like a hot knife through butter.

Very true, but they also take care of legionary cohorts easily and can beat urbans as long as they don't get flanked.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

In my opinion, the best way to determine how good a hoplite is, is to judge how well they fight when they don't have their enemy pinned to their spear points.

[Paradox]

I'm currently playing a Greek campaign for the first time. I'm still on my Sicilian campaign and managed to occupy Lilybaeum, I'm aiming towards the Scipii city. In Greece, I besieged the Macedonian city north of Sparta to secure my journey to Athens, which is currently rebel-held. The Brutii, reaching Apollonia, still have not attacked, I'm trying my best to strengthen the nearest city to them. Meanwhile in the Asia minor, I established trade rights between Pontus, the Seleucids, and I. I just hope the Seleucids won't backstab me on my road to Constantinople.

[wumpus]

In my opinion, the best way to determine how good a hoplite is, is to judge how well they fight when they don't have their enemy pinned to their spear points.

Ahoy, Good Ship Chuckle. Try this one: you're assaulting an enemy city--stone walls--your hoplites have climbed up the ladders (after the unit that has carried the ladder to the wall)--you slug it out with the defenders at the battlements. Your hoplites would fight without their spears up there. NOW you may test your hoplites' mettle with their swords only. That would be interesting to discover how they'd fare. Hawooh.

[mrdun]

On a wall, Roman Legions should easily be able to kill off units of hopltes using swords, otherwise hoplites would be overpowered IMO

[Hannibalbarc]

In my opinion, the best way to determine how good a hoplite is, is to judge how well they fight when they don't have their enemy pinned to their spear points.

Well if your fighting the ai that doesnt happen often, at least not to me.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

Ahoy, Good Ship Chuckle. Try this one: you're assaulting an enemy city--stone walls--your hoplites have climbed up the ladders (after the unit that has carried the ladder to the wall)--you slug it out with the defenders at the battlements. Your hoplites would fight without their spears up there. NOW you may test your hoplites' mettle with their swords only. That would be interesting to discover how they'd fare. Hawooh.

I've already been down that path once before. BBAAADDDD!!!!
Read this so you don't make the same mistake I did!

(Played on Hard)
My army: Full professional stack of armoured hoplites.
Scipii army: A motely crew of Principes, hastati, and samnite mercearies.

I built only siege towers as siege equipment and and began the battle the same as any other. I was feeling very confident until I began noticing serious red numbers plummiting on my unit cards. Upon further examination I noticed that hastati were making mince meat of my amoured hoplites. Now alarmed (but still confident because I had plenty of hoplites to burn yet), I was forced put my reserve siege towers into place (in order to flank the walltop troops), because I knew a fair fight would kill me.

This phyrric process continued, until I made sure every clump of scipii was surrounded by two clumps of armoured hoplites. Only then were my hoplites able to take out the hastati and samnite mercenaries. That's right. I was losing armoured hoplites down the last god-forsaken samnite mercenary!

My casualty ratio on the walltop was easily 4:1.

Having captured the walls, I then proceeded to the square with my dumb-founded general and a couple of shell-shocked hoplites. I had lost so much blood on the wall top that I was unable to recover. I then sprinted to the square in vain to outrun the last few minutes I had remaining. I ended up losing the battle because of time.
This battle happened about six months ago, and yet it has been seared into my memory to make it seem like it happened yesterday.

MORAL OF THE STORY.
Never force the hoplites to fight with their swords on the walltop. They fare much better as a coordinated phalanx. AKA, use sap points to break in on ground level (use phalanx), isolate sections of the avenue, and then porceed to the square. [However, make sure you have a unit on the wall tops to capture the towers, lest you be pelted to death by them] Phalanges are excellent in seiges, both attacking and defending. Just keep your spear down, and it will not fail.

This link also statistically shows that phalanges are inferior with the sword.
http://totalwar.co.kr/rome/indexx.html
(look them up under the Greek Cities)

[Hannibalbarc]

I agree with chuckle, never get hoplites to fight on walls, in fact I never fight on walls at all except of I'm roman.

[Punicus]

I agree with chuckle, never get hoplites to fight on walls, in fact I never fight on walls at all except of I'm roman.

Amen. A long while back I foolishly attempted it and ended up with around 1000 men dead when I could have just made a sap point. Silly me.

On the subject of cavalry... I never saw a problem with Greek cavalry, or even militias. They're definitely not where you want to be when you're talking about your top cavalry unit, but I'm also a fan of bunching them all together in the tight formation (not sure who mentioned that before). In this way they are surprisingly effective. I guess you just have to make due with what you have.

Otherwise, I'm completely in love with the Greeks. They are amazingly wealthy. The circle of trade between Rhodes and the three cities on the west coast of Asia Minor brings in so much cash.

I'm currently playing as them, with all of Greece, Macedonia, Asia Minor, and Northern Italy under my control. The Julii are giving me a run for my money but otherwise looks good. They're a very fun campaign to play. =)

[Hannibalbarc]

I dont know about you guys but it seems to me that whenever you charge cavalry into the back of a phalanx they(the cavalry) still lose a lot of men, not that I'm complaining but I've seen a unit of spartans pinned by urbans and charged by praetorian cavalry in the back, and instead of routing, the spartans ended up breaking the cav and the urbans routing because the cav routed.

[Punicus]

Yeah, I have noticed that. It's mostly with the weaker cavalry units. But it was pretty much fixed for me by making them into the one big mass of units.

[wumpus]

@GoodShipChuckle. You asked, I pointed one way to find out an answer, I didn't know you've gone that wy before. So, now you know how hoplites do without spears & without the phallanx. MORAL: when you have hoplites, they always come with spears and in a phallanx. That always comes as a package--take away one part, you no longer have a package.

@Hannibalbarc. Yes, that should happen. This is what I think why: in real combat, most of the phallanx elements would be fighting the urbans, sure, but if some of the enemy sneaked behind to engage, I think the rear ranks of a real formation, being made up of real human-being kind of soldiers, would of course face about and face the new threat. It's only in games like the various TW's (and others which copy them) where we sometimes forget that the soldiers are humans with a propensity for self-preservation. As long as the phallanx isn't broken up, you would realy score some enemy dead over there. And yes: totalwar092 is right--only with weaker cav units. The main factors, I think, are the cav unit's discipline, morale, and armor.

Hawooh.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

@GoodShipChuckle. You asked, I pointed one way to find out an answer, I didn't know you've gone that wy before. So, now you know how hoplites do without spears & without the phallanx. MORAL: when you have hoplites, they always come with spears and in a phallanx. That always comes as a package--take away one part, you no longer have a package.

In retrospect, it was odd to ask a question when I already knew the answer, but my small statement did generate quite a bit of insight.

It was also nice to be able to vent a little. I still have some anxeity issues because of that battle. Every time I begin a siege with phalanges, a little voice in the back of my head is laughing at me.