The Greek Cities

[katank]

It's hard for the AI to not break the alliance. Besides, the Brutii would most likely go after Thermon.

I find it quite easy to smash the Romans at the same time as the Macedonians.

[Ianofsmeg16]

it's not the battles it's the multi-tasking. maybe i should just rush them all

[katank]

You should. I term those strats the octopus, smashing out in all directions.

This is best done with Carthage, Gaul, or Greek Cities due to diverse geographic holdings. I'm also trying this with Seleucia and having some success at striking into Egypt, Greece, and Parthia all within the first 2-3 turns.

[Garvanko]

Militia are just not good enough.

I actually think they are a pretty good unit.

[katank]

They are your bread and butter unit for the first 5-10 turns. They help build my early empire. Stack em up and guard their flanks and they do well as an anvil.

Just don't expect them to hold forever.

[CMcMahon]

I've found that a general, eight units of armored hoplites NOT set to phalanx unless cavalry is coming, any cheap infantry unit (peasants even) for busting down the gate with a battering ram, four archers, and six militia cavalry are pretty much unstoppable (the peasants aren't useful at all in the open field, but I usually leave them at the front gate after breaking it, anyway).

For sieges, just set your hoplites up in standard formation, double lines, centered behind the ram. Single file the archers in a long line behind them. Have your general behind them. And flank with your cavalry. Assuming that there aren't peltasts on top of epic stone walls, your archers (set one to flame) and cavalry should wipe out most of the enemy archers. Once your peasants bust down the door, move them aside (and forget about the archers, too) and let your hoplites in. Whenever you get rushed by cavalry, have the first group or two switch to phalanx, and then surround them with your other hoplites. If there's hastati/principes/whatever, turn off the phalanx and run right into them; half the time you'll rout the enemy in less than ten seconds. When you get to the city center, line up your hoplites single file, and turn them in slightly at the ends to envelop the waiting enemy. Then move your cavalry through the town to hit them from behind from multiple directions, including the front (they jump right over the hoplites). Attack with your hoplites first, and after the enemy engages, alt-attack with your cavalry to go in with spears and wipe out the enemy.

For open field battles, line up your hoplites single file with phalanx off. Single file cavalry behind them. And then single file archers behind them. General in the back, preferably on top of a hill, because he likes to have a good view of an easy victory. March your units towards the enemy, turn on cantabrian circle, and pick a side for your cavalry to hit.Have the archers fire at the opposite side. Rush your hoplites in, turning phalanx on for wherever the enemy cavalry is. Run your cavalry around the side, disengage cantabrian circle, and alt-attack. Disengage your archers and have them concentrate on picking off any routing units.

I'd say that it works pretty damn well; I'm only 20 years into the game right now and I currently control all but two Macedonian cities, one Brutii city, one Scipii city, and all of the Julii cities (I haven't had a chance yet); I also took over Rome, giving me a total of 16 territories thus far, with a profit of 9-12k a turn.

[Franconicus]

CMcMahon,

A warm welcome to you!

This is a very interesting approach! I used the militia hoplites in ansimilar was. I put them in squares, so they could easily turn around and have max. debth in all direction. I placed them at both wings. So I had good protection against flanking cav. I also used them as flanking units.

[nameless]

I actually think they are a pretty good unit.

Only if you use them correctly, I learned the hard way that hoplites can't be relied on for defending walls so I did what Caesar did in the movie Cleopatra, I let them into the city as all streets lead to the palace square. I just put a hoplite unit 2 ranks deep at the street where the enemy will come, then put another 2 rank deep by another. This basically makes an impenetratable porcupine as if the enemy passes through the first militia hoplites, which it does, it'll face another level of sticks and another. I stopped chariots, calvary, everything and I was outnumbered 10 to 1. The horsemen just ran through the first one but then they landed right in front of the second hoplite's spear. It was a massacre. Of coures in order to work your general needs to be behind the hoplites so the enemy will come to him that way.

Throughout the Greek campaign, the Pontus, Romans, Macedonians and Selecuids are all after my butt within 5 turns. I basically had my ports continously blockaded which screwed my economy for some time until I got some decent fleets to hold them off. I think personally you need to get yourself a strong and decent fleet as early as possible so you can defend your ports AND blockade the roman ports, which are a major threat to you including the macedonians. Another thing is as most people already said was that the Greeks are mainly defensive so when it came to taking settlements I just seiged it and waited for the enemy to either sally out or send in a relief army, usually it's a relief army in the next or so turn so I beat that army and the garrison together and I take the city afterwards. If needed, I park armies in enemy areas which need to be taken out and next turn the enemy would usually attack me. As usual, I park my army in a high rise area so my archers have a good shot and let the enemy come to me.

M/M
In 30 years the Roman and Macedonian ports are blockaded, the Scipii have been kicked off Syracuse and I'm maintaining an uneasy truce with the carthagians who still hold the island as well but I have a strong army to make sure they keep in line. The Brutii have one city left, the one above Apollina, the Macedonains are holding defensive. I'm currently trying to push the Pontus and Selecuids out of the Turkey area so I can blockade the mountains to prevent any further troops from getting in. The Greek cities are something that have to be taken slowly as your extremely spread out.

[katank]

@nameless, stacked phalanxes are indeed powerful.

Blockading ports isn't that powerful. Go take their cities instead. Let the AI win the naval arms race and then laugh when all their fleets turn rebel since all their cities are yours.

Greeks can be very offensive. Hoplites are one of the best level 2 inf units around. Just turn off phalanx to maneuver. Flanking or rear attacking with a phalanx results in a sweet phalanx sandwich which annihilates most things.

Armoured hops are also tough mofos. They are practically invulnerable to arrows and work well even out of phalanx due to good defense and decent melee.

[nameless]

@nameless, stacked phalanxes are indeed powerful.

Sure are but as the enemy gets stronger you might need to get a stronger hoplite unit to do the job.

Blockading ports isn't that powerful. Go take their cities instead. Let the AI win the naval arms race and then laugh when all their fleets turn rebel since all their cities are yours.

Well I don't want to destroy the romans this early in the game, not to mention I want to have a decent rival to fight on later. I would leave them alone but if I do, then they'll send fleet after fleet after me to blockade me so instead I blockade them. Speaking of which, blockade means nothing can get in or out of the port right? Because I blockaded this Brutii port but they can still build ships and have those ships leave and drop off troops elsewhere! Is that a bug or can you actually do that?

I'm thinking of going the Hun way and raze rome to the ground and then give it back to them to "Bring them back in line"

Armoured hops are also tough mofos. They are practically invulnerable to arrows and work well even out of phalanx due to good defense and decent melee.

I'm beginning to think their more better suited to combat than relying on Spartans.

[katank]

True, that's why you scale up the hoplites.

Stacked Militia hops can take hastati and you need hoplites for principes etc. Typically, by stacking hoplites, you can beat their unit which is a tech level higher.

In 1.2, there is a bug which allows ships to leave ports under blockade without fighting the blockading force which is why it is useless.

Use armoured hops as the backbone for bulk, they train in a turn, are tough, and are not vulnerable to missiles.

I use Spartans for both reserve duty and flanking.

Turn off their phalanx mode as they function as swordsmen well also. Have them crash into the rear of units pinned by armoured hops and it's usually insta rout. You should not even have time to make a phalanx sandwich before the enemy are completely owned.

[nameless]

So armoured hoplites are as good as legionaries in hand to hand combat? Just want to clarify.

In 1.2, there is a bug which allows ships to leave ports under blockade without fighting the blockading force which is why it is useless

Alright I'm gonna raze that Brutii town to the ground, teach those fools a lesson.

[CMcMahon]

I love regular hoplites. I just fought a battle with two undermanned groups of archers, two generals (one was a bribed Gaullic family member that I was moving to Ariminium), a couple of undermanned militia cavalry, and five regular hoplites, in all, about 400 men.

Between turns, they got attacked by an 800-man army of Gaul, including swordsmen, and three full-strength cavalry units.

In the end, I had 300 men left, and they had 35. I love doing the "phalanx horseshoe" manuever.

[katank]

Armoured hops have equal stats to legionaires of 9/22.

The spear only has a lethality/speed of .73 and will lose out to the sword when in melee.

However, when in phalanx, they gain the advantage and will definitely win frontally (note: stretch out the phalanx so that they don't get auto-flanked). Default depth for phalanxes gets wrapped around and destroyed.

[nameless]

So the 9/22 is the same damage that both the spear and sword can inflict then? I've always been confused with those stats.

I just defended Apollina from a 20 army Brutii army; 4 Militia hoplites, 1 Missile calvary, and 1 armoured hoplites. It was a total massacre, when up against stronger enemies like the romans you'll need a couple more men to do it and at least one trump card. Once the romans started routing my calvary(Missiles, one of the weakest units IMO) went ahead and slaughtered several legions in one. I only lost like 30 guys, the romans lost nearly 95%.

There are times though on open battle fields where if your defending make a box with the Phalanx and put a couple archers in there, it can resist almost any attack thrown at it if you do it right.

[katank]

Boxes aren't that great. Half hexagons work better. Corner camp for maximum advantage.

9 is attack and 22 is total defence armour and all.

swords are wielded at a faster speed than spears and hence have a small advantage.

When armoured hops fight out of phalanx, they use their little sword/knives but then only have 7 attack.

When in phalanx, the formation can keep the Romans from closing in melee.

Make the story short, without accounting for pila, armoured hops can kill legions with ease frontally in phalanx mode but get killed with phalanx turned off.

[Deus ret.]

not necessarily. When I fought the Senate army just outside of Rome, their 7 family members really gave me some hell....this I had expected but the real problem was that my armoured hops couldn't cope properly with the heavy Roman infantry. Of course, the Triarii were no big challenge, but the nasty thing were their experienced & upgraded Principes: When the hops attack them, these darn Romans just don't close in for melee (where they would be pinned by the spears) but instead stay out and do so until they have thrown all their javelins at you. They hurt even armoured hops, so when they attack finally, they outnumber the hops and give them a tough fight; and if you decide to switch off phalanx and do a real charge to stop killing them only by ones and twos, their swords are superior to yours. In the end I won, but with very heavy losses...despite having a 9-star-general or something....
nevertheless, armoured hops definitely rule. Spartans are only good for flanking (as you mentioned) or for true emergencies because of the troubles one has to replenish their numbers.

[katank]

That's why peasant come in handy.

I'm absolutely serious. Have 2-3 units of peasants in loos formation just to absorb the pila. Roman infantry pila hurts like hell.

Park peasants in front of them and if they charge then run. Usually they throw pila at the peasants.

Don't ever go out of phalanx to engage. Just run up real close and enable phalanx then tempt them to charge you.

[nameless]

My typical army for greeks is usually simliar to romans. 4 Archers(Creten if possible), 1 general, 6 calvary, 9 armoured hoplites.

Though I never lost too many hoplites to Roman troops who throw their javelins before charging(THeir ammo really isn't that much). I just have archers behind the hoplites to give supporting fire and send my calvary around the enemies to take out any seige weapons or anything else, I usually have 3 hoplites defending the flanks. Personally I find Hoplites > any infantry unit.

Funny though one time a principle unit was in my rear and charging so I took all 4 archers to fire at them at once. It was funny, they were massacred like crazy. Let's see, 4 units x 80 = 320 arrows coming down at you, upgraded as well.

Greek armies work best when your on the defensive personally, especially if your on a bridge or in a city. I wasted a Julli and Senate(Reinforcements) army on a bridge. I just placed my hoplites 2 lines deep and behind each other with archers on their flanks protecting the bridge. If it's done right you'll have a huge pile of dead romans in front of you lines

I suffered no casualties. My archers took out their archers before coming into range and my calvary took out their seige weapons before running back to the bridge.

[RollingWave]

The key to success with teh Greek cities is exploit the phalanx and the AI stupidity to the max.

In Syracus and Asia minor, just build 6-8 units of miltia hoplits, and when they seige you, don't worry bout a thing, just wait and let them assault you, when they do put all ur men in the central square, the retarded AI will ram themself against the spearwall with junk units and then the chainrout will rout even the elite onces... exploit this to the max and you can easily hold on to all ur holdings against non phalanx armies.

Focus on taking the Balkans early, in Sciliy wait till the Romans and Carthigians have all wasted their army then make ur move, on Asia minor it is probably wise to wait until you have the Balkans under ur control, as you will need relief armeis from elsewhere if your going to advance in that direction. (though u could gamble a little by taking the rebel city north of u ASAP and then hope u can muster enough hoplits in both towns before Pontus come knocking)

After getting through the early stage you can just bribe everyone... serious

[nameless]

Yeah but that takes the fun out of exterminating the population and looting.

[katank]

Actually, bribing everything that you see is no longer viable in 1.2. You can only bribe every other thing that you see.

[pezhetairoi]

In Syracuse etc, they don't assault you, just starve you out... When I was in Messana (admitted, different city) the Carthaginians sent everything they had on the island at me and I had to sally to attract them to the gates, and even then they refused to enter the gates to ram my spearwall, I had to send my hoplites out where they disappointingly fought with swords. If you'll look at the earlier posts you'll see how close it was. And katank, not true :-) I'm on 1.2 but the Greeks are so bloody rich most of the time I can bribe anything I see :-D

[katank]

That they are. Still, sometimes it's more cost effective to factory produce hoplites and then just autocalc your battles.

Equally saving of your time and actually cheaper.

Before 1.2, bribing was definitely more cost effective.

[pezhetairoi]

Autocalc in RTW is sheer blasphemy, lol. I'd fight all my battles no matter how pointless or sure-win they are, because I have to beat myself--no autocalc is going to reflect my true ability, or what is realistic :-P

[Garvanko]

The key to success with teh Greek cities is exploit the phalanx and the AI stupidity to the max.

In Syracus and Asia minor, just build 6-8 units of miltia hoplits, and when they seige you, don't worry bout a thing, just wait and let them assault you, when they do put all ur men in the central square, the retarded AI will ram themself against the spearwall with junk units and then the chainrout will rout even the elite onces... exploit this to the max and you can easily hold on to all ur holdings against non phalanx armies.

Focus on taking the Balkans early, in Sciliy wait till the Romans and Carthigians have all wasted their army then make ur move, on Asia minor it is probably wise to wait until you have the Balkans under ur control, as you will need relief armeis from elsewhere if your going to advance in that direction. (though u could gamble a little by taking the rebel city north of u ASAP and then hope u can muster enough hoplits in both towns before Pontus come knocking)

After getting through the early stage you can just bribe everyone... serious

Agree with all that. Also don't underestimate the usefulness of their Militia Cav. These are great skirmisher units and essential in the early-mid game.

[pezhetairoi]

It depends, however. In my Greek campaign I quickly took down Messana, but the Carthaginians came and just besieged me. They didn't assault. So I had to reload the game from 4 turns before and sally one unit to lure them to the gates, and for some confused reason I decided to hold the gate instead of letting the Carthaginians through to hit my phalanx, taking 80-90% casualties before routing the Carthaginians.

Anyway, my point is, sometimes the AI doesn't assault, and then where would you be?

[Franconicus]

Take Messana asap. With a little luck you can take it during the 1st turn. Carthage will besiege Syracuse, then. Go and move your army from Messana to threaten Lilybaeum, the they will withdraw from Syracuse. Then built a fortress between Lily and Syra and built up an army for the final attack.

[QUOTE=pezhetairoi]It depends, however. In my Greek campaign I quickly took down Messana, but the Carthaginians came and just besieged me. They didn't assault. So I had to reload the game from 4 turns before ...
[QUOTE]
Pez, you are a reloader? That explains why you are able to win so fast.

[pezhetairoi]

No, that was a test to see. I fought the battle once, and saved, then decided to see what would happen if I hadn't. I don't reload except when I'm testing things... :-D So I'm innocent! I won so fast not because of reloading, but because of liberal bribing of rebel armies made up of militia hoplites and hoplites and cretan archers. That gave me about two fullstacks' worth of new troops in the first 10 turns.

[bubbanator]

I just started my Greek campaign 2 days ago. It has been a very fun campiagn. Early on, I took Messana and built a fort so that the Carthys couldn't get to Syracuse. Over in Greece, I took Corinth and Athens then proceded to work my way North. I crushed the small Brutii invasion when they decided to come. I was planning to work my way farther into Greece and Turkey when something caught my eye. The Carthaginians had left Lilybalium virtualy undefended. One general was in the city and that was it. I took the city and started building up for an invasion of Capua to take out the Scipii (they had already sent a half stack to try to take back Messana)

Over in Turkey, I had gotten an alliance with Pontus. I then noticed that Nicomedia, Sardis, and Halicarnassus could be bribed for around 5000 each including the entire army inside. My treasury was good so I took the offer and quadrupled my territories in Turkey in one turn without losing a single man. I then began building up for an invasion of Pontus.

Back in Greece, I was working my way North and had finnished off the Macedonians and taken several rebel provinces. I stoped to see what to do next with my armies. Thrace looked like a nice target so I moved my 3 half stack armies right outside of their 3 cities. I took them all the next turn. Greece is secure for now.

While all of this was happening, I had launched my invasion army. The mission was not to take and hold the Roman towns, but to finish off the Scipii, Brutii, and the Senate. I marched on Capua (which had 2 family members and 2 groups of histatii) and took it easily. I exterminated and retrained my troops. I didn't have a large enough army to take on the full Senate army. However, about half of it was lead by a capitan who was running around randomly. I bribed him and made my move on Rome. I took the city without much trouble. I retrained and built a group of Armored Hoplites. A large Julii army was headed my way, so I evacuated the city and headed south to take out the Brutii. They had never really built up again after I had wiped out their invasion force so they had virtualy no one in their cities. I took Croton, then Tarentum. The Julii had taken Rome.

My invasion of Pontus went very well. Their main field army had been wiped out by the Selucids. I was planning to have 2 armies to take their 2 main cities, but with their main army out of the way, I could divide my 2 armies into 3, hire some mercs, and take all 3 or their cities in one turn. It worked perfectly. I then proceded to take Tarsus and Antioch from the Selucids.

So here I am now, with all of Sicily, Greece, and Turkey under my control. I am poised for an invasion of Carthage, a push into the heart of the Middle East, an offensive into Dacians territories, and an island hopping campaign. My economy is going great and my family members are breeding like rabbits.

I think that I will also slowly rebuild my army that is sitting in Tarentum and recapture all of the cities in Italy. My eventual goal is to control every port city in the Mediteranian.

My only gripe is that my family members aren't extaordinary. They aren't corrupt of anything but none of them seem to ever have any stats over 6. That could be because I don't have to use them in combat much. In fact I rarely do at all except for killing archers and chasing routers. I would use them more but I don't need to, and I don't have a cavalry force to back them up. In the beggining, I focused too much on getting armored hoplites (which rock btw) and forgot to build stables that could produce greek cavalry...

I have also found that the rumors are true...everyone does hate you as the Greeks. At one point, I was at war with Pontus, Carthage, Thrace, Selucids, and all four Roman Factions. But the beggining is the hardest part. Everything hinges on if you can take the settlements you need at the begging.

***UPDATE***

Well I just finished up, and then kept going...

After Italy was secured, I began building up for an offensive into Gaul. The Germans had made a drive down into Gaul early in the game and had split the Gauls in to two parts. The easter section was made of Segsta, Patavium, and Iuvavuam. I sent my armies and took all 3 of the cities. My empires in Greece and Italy were finally connected.

I wanted to finish my war with the egyptians. By this time, I had alrady taken Sidon and Damascus. I had a large naval force with which I could blockade all of the egyptian ports. I built up 2 large armies in Greece and put them in boats to head over. I also built one large army in the Middle East to take the heavily deffended city of Jerusalem. One of my invasion armies took Sidon and then moved across to take Bostra then move to Petra. The other army landed at Alexandria but went past it to take Memphis first so that I could have the Pyramids. From there, I retrained and took Alexandria and Thebes. Then I realized that they had Swia so I had to take that too...

Over in Turkey, I invaded armenia just for the fun of fighting their famed horsemen. I knew I had the advantage in the streets so I beseiged both of their cities on the same turn. I took the cities without too much hassel. Horse archers charged me after firing just a few volleys. I rebuilt my armies and pushed southeast to finish off the Selucids at Hatra and Selucia. After I took Selucia I realized that I had all 7 wonders of the world

Some other settlements that I took were Caralis, Palma, Cyrene, Kydonia, Carthage, Thapsus, Campus Scythii, Chersonesos, and Tanis.

8 more settlements and I will have every settlement with a coast on the Mediteranian Sea! I wonder if that will be good or bad for trade. Either way, i'm so freaking rich that it doesn't really matter any more.