The Greek Cities

[rotorgun]

Interesting points Bubbanator,

I can appreciate your approach to the use of the phalanx line. How do you propose to draw the enemy's army to attack your bristling line of spears? If I face such a line, I tend to attempt some type of indirect approach to lure the phalanx to manuever out of its sedate formation. If this cannot be done, than I will try to approach it in some type of uneven line, such as the Roman checkerboard formation. This will inevitably cause some of the phalanx units to move out of position. I then hit them in the flanks with my reserves in the second line.

Indeed, it is still a formidable infantry force to engage. I never underestimate its power to pin my army down in the center. It must be taken out by erosion-like an ant colony attacks. No?

Rotorgun

[GreatEmperor]

Thanks for the Advice Rotorgun, I don't know how but it seems like when I'm fighting hoplites and they're in phalanx formation they won't break up. No matter what I tried, until I used Onagers. It's the only way for me to break 'em up.

A few well shot fired projectiles... Ah Great :)

[rotorgun]

No matter what I tried, until I used Onagers. It's the only way for me to break 'em up.

A few well shot fired projectiles... Ah Great :)

I agree with you entirely about the Onagers.(Nasty kill ratios witha direct hit on a crowded Phalanx) I don't usually have those available with my main attack armies. I preferr to keep them in an artillery train behind the main front, then bring them forward for sieges. I did have them available for several defensive battles against the Egyptians. They countered by bring Heavy Onagers on in the next rounds. They were some awesome battles!

rotorgun

[bubbanator]

Interesting points Bubbanator,

I can appreciate your approach to the use of the phalanx line. How do you propose to draw the enemy's army to attack your bristling line of spears? If I face such a line, I tend to attempt some type of indirect approach to lure the phalanx to manuever out of its sedate formation.
Rotorgun

Yes, but fortunatly for us, the AI is too dumb to attempt a feint or a full flank attack

Plus, if you have mercs on the flanks, they should have a hard time getting around you, especialy if you have a reserve unit or two of mercs (like Thracian Mercs or Barbarian Spearmen) This usualy saves me when the entire AI line charges and begins to wrap around my forces. I send a reverve unit to help my other mercs while my sprearmen break the backs of the enemy main column. Plus if you throw in the effect of your cavalry, the effects are devestating and the battle is soon over because of chain routing even if the odds were heavily in favor of the enemy.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Yes, but fortunatly for us, the AI is too dumb to attempt a feint or a full flank attack

According to other posts I have read, that is no longer true in RTW 1.3

[bubbanator]

Even if they do though, if your units are in guard mode and the flanks are refused, they won't be getting anywhere. Though I highly recomend a unit or two of mercs, preferably spearmen, in the rear to rush into any hot spots.

[Shorttail]

I find that at times the Roman Body Guards are darn tough. They managed to frontal charge right through my 5 deep ranks of militia hoplites even when I am playing easy/easy. My 2nd cohort of militia hoplites was down to 21 men by the first charge from a full body of 40 and that darn Roman heavy calvary suffered no casualties. Luckily for me, I managed to counter-charge the offending General and his bodyguards with my own general.

[rotorgun]

It's not so much that the Preatorian Cavalry are tough; they are, however, somewhat unrealistic historically speaking. It's more that Malitia Hoplites are, well...Malitia. As such, they represent hastily trained soldiers probably only recently taken from their soft cyber jobs in town. Without the benefit of the drill, and discipline of units like the Armored Hoplites they simply cannot stand.
I'm not sure what their defense rating is, but compare it with the Roman Heavy Cavalry attack factor and charge bonuses and you'll see why. I always try to give my malitia units some experience, if I can, prior to taking on elite troops. I know we don't always get that chance.

[pezhetairoi]

My approach to Greek siege warfare is to just go straight in for the kill. I assault with my hoplites as if I were Roman. After breaking the walls, I race my greeks into the breach out of phalanx, and deploy immediately within them with the phalanx mode on. Usually my practice is to make three breaches, the central one being the gate. The gate unit rushes in, forms a wide phalanx with back to the gate, and starts fighting, letting the enemy lap around his flanks. Then the other two hoplite units race in, form phalanx facing the central unit, and march to contact. Meanwhile my cavalry races in and if they're javelin units they shower javelins, and if they're shock units they lie in wait till the enemy starts to waver. Then the flanking hoplite units leave phalanx and disengage, and the cavalry pursue to the town square before disengaging.

That is the case for wooden walls, which is what you will tend to face in early game. Militia hoplites, in this case, are enough to do the job. The enemy won't hold long enough to do much damage. Of course, hoplites are even better. If you have archers, use them.

The town square endgame is fun in 1.2, since your hoplites can form up unmolested at the square's edges, then fire a salvo or two to bring the enemy charging into your spearhedge.

On stone walls I bring up towers and send my hoplites in to attack. The key is flexibility. Usually the enemy deploys at most 3 units on the walls, and that at walls directly opposite your army's deployment at the start of the assault. The simplest way to get rid of them is change your deployment and move assault operations to another gate, much further away, while leaving one tower/ladder in front of the old one. Use a militia unit, since that unit is out of the battle. His job is to occupy the enemy and prevent them from marching to deal with your troops. After this, immediately send two units to take the gate. Once captured, the unit further from the enemy's wall segment will race to capture a few towers on that side of the gate, while the unit closer to the enemy will march as far towards the enemy as he dares, capturing towers, and await the enemy attack. It will fight a holding action, with the reinforcement of the second unit that will be coming. Then when fighting has commenced, you will have bought time for the entire army to move into the gates. If you haven't broken the enemy contesting the gates yet, you suck. The trick here is an undignified hoplite rush. Send them through, infantry first, and as soon as they are through, no matter how disorganised they are, put them into phalanx. They'll hold long enough for the fire from the gates to remove their morale. Meanwhile your decoy unit at the old gates will have come up and struck the enemy on the wall in the rear. The outcome of this battle is now irrelevant. Whatever happens to your wall units, you mustn't look back at them. It's now on to taking out the units in the town square and holding it for 3 minutes.

In the field (though if I'm not wrong I have a post about it somewhere) I prefer to advance my phalanx to contact. The enemy usually charges once my phalanx comes close. If they are attacking I split my phalanx into 3 units and leave two as flank guard, with only a small force engaging the front.

hooray.This marks my return to super-long posts in the guides.

[rotorgun]

Thanks to Pezhetaroi for the intersting tips on Greek siege tactics. I'll give it a go next time I am playing them, or a faction similarly armed. Do you modify the tactics when Onagers and/or sapping points are used?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Thanks Pez!

I think I asked about Greek Cities Siege assault eons ago in this thread. Yours is the first comphrehensive answer.

I wouldn't have thought the hoplites would be as flexible as sworders for that kind of assault, and that they would be in real trouble if caught half formed -- but your tactics address that implicitly.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
No guide thread can be complete without the pics. (Made this up now! )

Here is a sally, in which I enveloped the Roman army with my hoplite horde:



What's not seen on the picture are my archers deployed on the gate. Their fire arrows brought half of the victory. (The ballista was a waste of unit space. It can't cross the gate or fire over the walls.)

I started with my peltasts, effectively eliminating the enemy velites and inflicting reasonable casualties on the hastati. Once out of ammo, I retired them to cover the left flank of the hoplite wall along with a unit of Samnites. The other Samnite unit is keeping the right flank.

The rest was basically point and click. I selected all fielded units and pointed them to the centre of the enemy line keeping the formation (Alt + Right Click). Almost at the same time, the enemy units, all at once, charged and entered within the archers' range. With the infantry already torn down by the peltast skirmish, and even more damaged by the arrowfire, the heavy cavalry and equite units were easy prey for my hoplites, with the flanks quasi secured and supported by my general.
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[pezhetairoi]

I must also mention, it is also useful to bait the enemy out of the gate by capturing the gate on the walls, and sending in cavalry (one unit only) into the gate to charge the enemy, who will surely be attempting to retreat following the gates' commencing fire on them.

Then immediately retreat. The units, providing your horses don't run too far away too quickly, will follow out of the gate. Boiling oil and a phalanx placed in front of the gate will do the rest. Repeat ad infinitum with that cavalry unit, or rotate a few others, to complete the slaghter. Then walk in and take the town square. It works just as well. Never use infantry unless you have no choice, cos they are too slow.

[NeoSpartan]

Yo fellas I am confused I DL version 1.3 and I am paying 2 games one with the Germans and one with the Sel. Empire, but now I went to start a game with Greece (since I cannot Load my old game ) and my units are cut by 1/2! My militia hoplites are 40, my archers are 40, and my Genera's Bguard are 12!!! WTF happened?? Is it something I did????


Need some back up.

[pezhetairoi]

heyy, I think you may want to check your unit scale? You might be playing on tiny scale, because 80 men per unit means you're on medium scale (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Just go into the advanced options to tweak the settings and I think you can have up to 160 men a unit on huge if you wanted.

[Kickius Buttius]

When playing as the Greeks, how do you handle the Eastern horse/horse archer cultures and not have your phalanx slowly cut ( or rather pierced by arrows) to death? I can't catch up with the horsemen and since they are in skirmish mode they can't be lured into a frontal charge on the Phalanx.

What do you all do?

[Craterus]

Don't go into the battle without missile (archers) support.

If it's only one unit of HAs, you can chase them to the edge of the map with Greek cav. That's assuming they have no other cav support.

[Bonusmalus]

Yes, Greek cavalry will do an excellent job against those horse archer. If you dont have them, the armoured hoplites can take a lot of damage before routing. You can also hire some mercenary cavalry.

[Kickius Buttius]

Thanks for the advice. I seem to have a hard time with horse archers in general. I played an H/H game as Pontus and did very well, with the exception that I was absolutely manhandled everytime I fought the Scythians. Maybe its a mental block...

[pezhetairoi]

This is from a purely theoretical point of view (the only time I played Greeks against Scythians they were perfectly happy to charge into my phalanx) but I believe when fighting the Scythians, do not engage the phalanx. That way when they charge you, they will get largely entangled in your melee hoplites. They will then be unable to extricate themselves and return to firing.

When fighting ranged cavalry, do not try to simply run him down. To catch ranged cavalry short of the map border you need to set traps. Fighting as or against HA factions requires a lot of artistic micromanagement of your cavalry, and frequent pauses. I have discovered that you have to concentrate at least 2 units of cavalry to one. My method was this: I charged at the archers while one unit went round to the side, then once the enemy retreated, the first unit would feign retreat to lure the enemy after him. This allows the second unit to get into his rear. Then the second unit charges, forcing the enemy to retreat...into the first unit, which then pins it while the second unit completes the charge and rout. Rinse and repeat.

When fighting them, it seems that all you have to do is catch the lagging-behind members of the unit, and the rest of the unit will (foolishly) come to his rescue. This means that as long as you catch one or two of them on the tail end during the pursuit, you have caught the entire unit. Warning though: this has not been tested fully on cherry vanilla stats. I play using my own stats-mod in which shock cavalry have 5 hit points, ranged have 4, cataphracts have 6, generals have 8, and cataphract generals have 9. Hence tail-end horse archers tend to survive long enough to alert the rest of the unit to come to their rescue.

When playing the Greeks against scythians, load up on Greek cav and militia cavalry. Seriously. Do not go in there with less than 2 units of archers and 6 units of cavalry. And when fighting with militia cavalry, DO NOT keep them on skirmish mode! If you will engage in a ranged duel you will lose badly because militia cavalry range is 50m and HA range is 120m. 'Nuff said.

I once tried a variant of Alexander the Great's tactics against the Scythians, and it worked rather spectacularly (though it took a bit of effort). I moved up my infantry as bait, phalanx in two lines, archers in centre and light troops thrown out on the sides. I just kept them marching forward to encourage the HA to lap around my flanks, while wide to the flanks a considerable distance away I had two wings of cavalry, arranged in cavalry. Equally far to the rear of my infantry I had the heaviest of my cavalry.

Infantry would advance until they reached around the centre of the map. At the same time the two flanking wings would race for the opposite corner of the map, effectively outflanking the enemy at the same time. The HA will tend to hang around the infantry as long as your cavalry stays out of range. Once a number of units go to the flanks and rear of your infantry (they will not charge) you form your hoplites into a circular phalanx with ranged troops in the centre. The flank cavalry will change formation to line and charge inwards to drive the HA onto the phalanx. THe lead unit will be the one furthest from where you started. In other words, it will cut off the retreat of the enemy HA and drive them into what had been the 'rear' of your infantry bait. As the flanking columns drive inwards the last heavy reserve will charge into the rear centre to catch and slaughter the HA that have been driven there by the flank cavalry, while your hoplites deal with the rest by running forward, then engaging phalanx after you have caught and pinned them down. You should be able to rout the entire army. Anything left standing can be caught and destroyed at leisure via the multi-unit trap system.

If the enemy fields axemen, they can be easily dealt with by your phalanx while your cavalry busies itself with getting into the enemy rear and driving them back on the phalanx circle. If the enemy is Parthian/Armenian, eastern infantry will rout off the battlefield in embarrassment as soon as your phalanx starts laughing at them.

Note, this long stream of text must be compressed into a very short time, because your cavalry will not be able to deal any damage to the enemy, and only can take his arrow hits until it closes within javelin/charge range. So it is somewhat risky. Which is why I say you should never go in with less than 6 cavalry units. Also, if you don't feel confident, channel all cavalry into the flanking columns. Never mind the third force, you'll just have to give up the decisive striking blow and rely on your phalanx as the deciding force.

So you see, phalanxes can still be of some use in the steppes :) Just make sure they are armoured. NO SPARTAN HOPLITES. The only armour they have is that ridiculous red robe. One unit of foot archers could take them to pieces before they closed half the arrow range.

[Kickius Buttius]

Excellent advice. I will try some of this and see how it goes. I appreciate all the help!

[rotorgun]

pezhetairoi
I once tried a variant of Alexander the Great's tactics against the Scythians, and it worked rather spectacularly (though it took a bit of effort). I moved up my infantry as bait, phalanx in two lines, archers in centre and light troops thrown out on the sides. I just kept them marching forward to encourage the HA to lap around my flanks, while wide to the flanks a considerable distance away I had two wings of cavalry, arranged in cavalry. Equally far to the rear of my infantry I had the heaviest of my cavalry.

I truly enjoyed reading this post, as it was one of the most informative I've read. You are a very astute historian my freind. Can you please tell me the historical source for this information. Was it from Arrian's Anabasis of Alexander? I would very much like to give it a try. Fascinating! I'll bet you are a fair hand at battle tactics Mr. pezhetairoi.


A few more questions: Did you initially have your cavalry in column, and then afterwards deploy them into line? Were they deployed into a long line, like a dragnet to trap the HA, or a line with more depth? I sort of imagine a little of both approaches being used with some use of that great battle command and control technuiqe- the pause key.

[pezhetairoi]

I truly enjoyed reading this post, as it was one of the most informative I've read. You are a very astute historian my freind. Can you please tell me the historical source for this information.

Why thank you, being called a good historian is the best praise anyone can give me academically My source is JFC Fuller's The Generalship of Alexander the Great, which includes a study of all Alex's great battles, small wars (including the Scythian one), and sieges. He also includes diagrams. The Great Battle diagrams are detailed enough that he breaks down the army makeup to individual units, with their commanders' names. So you find out that there were Scythian Nobles at Gaugamela, and horse archers, as well as a token force of elephants.

I'll bet you are a fair hand at battle tactics Mr. pezhetairoi.

Well, not really. :) Sometimes my theorising doesn't work, and often my deployments aren't varied. The same double-line, advance to contact, second line saw out to flanks to absorb cavalry charges and cavalry countercharge, most of the time. No variation to that unless the enemy army's makeup necessitates a change. And besides with 4 units of cavalry on each flank working as a battering-ram there's no time to try strange new combinations... the enemy usually routs before my infantry reach it, since my battles always begin, a la Romans, with the cavalry charging. The Scythian deployment I supplied doesn't work all the time, and occasionally it is spectacularly unsuccessful. Playing as the Roman, the infantry battlebox completely missed the enemy and I was stuck in a deteriorating situation when the enemy's 5 HA charged my flank column with the other flank column too far away for assistance and my heavy cav desperately charging uphill to reach the enemy's flanks, arriving winded.

A few more questions: Did you initially have your cavalry in column, and then afterwards deploy them into line? Were they deployed into a long line, like a dragnet to trap the HA, or a line with more depth?

My flanking columns were initially in column, three abreast, with about 2 units' spacing between them. It's a dragnet, but a dispersed one that closes the inter-unit distance as the trap closes, assuming the trap manages to close. They were in column formation throughout, but when I had to close the trap with the unit-by-unit advance I micro-managed, both in ordering the advance and in wheeling them around. I don't generally recommend anything narrower than a three-row-deep unit front. Too deep, and the HA may slip through the gaps. Too wide, and...well, let's just say there may not be only HA on the battlefield. Once I had a Scythian Noble unit charge my closing in unit on 3 rows, and it was a damned close fight because that poor charged unit routed just after the other two flankers closed in on the noble posterior and routed it. If it had routed before, my flanking column would have been defeated in detail. As it was instead of a two-arm bear hug that battle, I could only pull off a one-armed version since the other arm reformed too late to trap the remaining HA who streamed off in withdrawal. The Nobles damned nearly broke through my light lancers because they were too thin, charge notwithstanding.

[Kickius Buttius]

Just ordered Fuller's book online. Looking forward to reading it. Are there any other books on tactics of the time period that you would recommend?

[NeoSpartan]

Man, I am playing the Greeks on VeryHard/VeryHard, and boy is that a challange. You really need to get creative and pay close attention to the ground, because the enemy units are stronger than yours. No joke, I had Macedonian Milita Hoplites beat Hoplites, just because my hoplites happen to be fighting at a slight upward slope.

So far, I have taken southern Italy and cannot take ROME unless I bring Spartan Hoplites. (the 4 Senate generals in there ROUTED 4 groups of Armored Hoplites, my general and 3 Greek Cavalry). And the Julii with their Pretorian Cohorts have made the push west almost a stalemate.

Oh and one tip for anyone playing agains Rome after Marian Reforms with Greeks. When you line up your phalanx, make sure there is NOT a gap in your line. (your phalanx has to be a solid line). Because eventually Pretorian Cohord will start eating your Armored hoplites thought the tiny gaps in your line.

Well I have another 2 armies to pushing to Northern Italy and a 3rd will start moving west again as soon as its units get retrained. I hope I can take a Julii citi now.

[Hoplite of Sparta]

I just started playing RTW again since it first came out, I haven't even stuck with a campaign long enough to finish it yet.

I'm having a blast with the Greeks though, phalanxes are alot of fun to use. It was slow going until I wiped out the Macedonians and built up an army to fend off the Brutii at Apollonia.

I abandoned Syracuse and used the army there to get a head start on Macedon. I'm not sure how far the Scipii have gone into Africa since I wasn't there to stop their progress, so that may come back to bite me later.

I lost Pergamum from an unexpected attack from Pontus, they went all the way through Seleucid territory (leaving it unharmed) just to get at me. I've decided to expand north and west rather than try to get a hold in the east. I still have Rhodes, and took Crete from the rebels (Cretian archers are awesome).

I just destroyed the Brutii, who turned out to be a pushover due to the massacre I gave them in Apollonia. For some reason they decided to train mass Town Watch instead of shipping over normal units, fooling me into thinking they had a huge army in Apollonia. Once my spy scoped it out for me and I realized it was all town watch, I immediately went in for the kill. It was ridiculous. I killed 1100+ Brutii and lost maybe 100 men. It was funny watching the town watch thrust themselves onto my armored hoplites spears.

I now have Sicily completely blockaded by my navy, and am preparing to send my army to get rid of the Scipii.

I definately enjoy playing Greece more than Rome, no senate to worry about, and much cooler units to play with.

[Hoplite of Sparta]

Also, sieging cities using Hoplites is so easy. Since its still a little early in the game, most cities still have wooden walls, which archers and peltasts can shoot over with ease.

What I've been doing is building 3 rams, putting skirmish units on them, and forming 3 columns consisting of 3 hoplite units each (best troops in front), and have them follow the rams up to the wall. Once the wall/gate is down, I order my hoplites just inside the gate/wall, and have the peltasts that were using the ram line up behind them and fire at will, all while my archers rain fiery death wherever they can. After the enemy routes back to the square, I advance my hoplites down 2 or 3 different streets to reach the square, followed by the general and or peltasts. Move in my archers for a few volleys to incite the enemy to charge, and watch as they suicide on my impenetrable hoplite walls.


So far no one has stood a chance.

[rotorgun]

Just ordered Fuller's book online. Looking forward to reading it. Are there any other books on tactics of the time period that you would recommend?

A great book to read is Fighting Techniques of the Ancient World 3000 BC to 500 AD: Equipment, Combat Skills, and Tactics . It is written by numerous authors and, I'm sorry, I loaned it to a freind so I can't remember who publishes it. I purchased it through the Military Book Club some time ago. There are chapters devoted to Cavalry, Infantry, Command and Control, Siege Tactics, and Naval warfare. There are many examples of ancient battles cited throughout, along with many renderings of the various arms in action. I found it to be very informative of the evolution of each fighting arm through history. I was able to use some of what I learned to improve my own tactics. If I can, I'll try to get you the IBN number. It is also full of great quotes on almost each page. The one I use in my signature is from this book. I think you'll enjoy it immensley.

[Craterus]

A great book to read is Warfare in the Ancient World: Fighting Techniques and Tactics. It is written by numerous authors and, I'm sorry, I loaned it to a freind so I can't remember who publishes it. I purchased it through the Military Book Club some time ago. There are chapters devoted to Cavalry, Infantry, Command and Control, Siege Tactics, and Naval warfare. There are many examples of ancient battles cited throughout, along with many renderings of the various arms in action. I found it to be very informative of the evolution of each fighting arm through history. I was able to use some of what I learned to improve my own tactics. If I can, I'll try to get you the IBN number. It is also full of great quotes on almost each page. The one I use in my signature is from this book. I think you'll enjoy it immensley.

I'll have a a look for that book, but I'll have to PM you for info if I can't find anything on the net.

A couple of months ago, we were able to get most of the RTW Guides regulars all into the same campaign (Scythia, that explains why that thread has so many posts). When you guys have finished with the Greeks, are you up for heading over to Carthage? I've just started mine, and I'm only at 265. You'll have a while to catch up too, since I'm busy over the next week or so.

If you're not quite at the end of that game, maybe we could organise something after I'm finished with Carthage and you're finished with the Greeks. You may even be able to get another campaign done. I'm a slow player, and I don't have a lot of time to play at the moment.

[rotorgun]

I'll have a a look for that book, but I'll have to PM you for info if I can't find anything on the net.

If you're not quite at the end of that game, maybe we could organise something after I'm finished with Carthage and you're finished with the Greeks. You may even be able to get another campaign done. I'm a slow player, and I don't have a lot of time to play at the moment.

Sounds great! I,ve just a few more turns to finish my Brutii campaign, but I'll go ahead and begin a Carthaginian adventure this week as well. I have all this week off as I'm using a bit of vacation.

What are the parameters? I'm probably not up to VH level of play yet. H/H would be acceptable at this time. Are we going to try to go for the same objectives more or less simultaneously? If so, than lead on Craterus, and keep us posted so we may, with all despatch, follow thee.

Merry Christmas
ps: I made an error on the title. It's actually Fighting Techniques of the Ancient World 3000 BC to 500 AD: Equipment, Combat Skills and Tactics. You can find it on Amazon.com for about $20.00 or perhaps for even less at halfprice.com. ( Just finished editting my previous posts)