Squalor

[therother]

For those not enamoured with details, here are my conclusions from a few tests, qualified by the fact that I manipulated the game a little.

Conclusions

• I can confirm, categorically, that the various Temples of Juro (and I suppose other 'growth' temples), and the water supply buildings, both have no effect on squalor itself. Squalor seems to be a factor that is only related to city size, and government building. However, they do counter its effects on public order (via health and culture), whilst farms counter the decrease in growth rate.
• Only the Government buildings and certain Governor traits and ancillary characters, seem to affect the level of squalor, given a constant population. The ancillary characters Geomancer (+1) and Architect (-1) both affect squalor if they are in the governor’s retinue, as well as a number of his traits: alleviators include the Natural Philosophy, Kind Ruler and the Good Builder lines, each varying from 1 to 3 (5 to 15%) in effect depending on the level you reach along those trait lines. The prim and proper trait also affects squalor, reducing it by 1. Traits that add to the problem include the Bad Builder, Miserly, and Cheapskate lines; again their affect is from 5 to 15%, only this time in the wrong direction.
• The growth of squalor appears to be linear, at a rate of approximately 1% per 300 men, assuming you have constructed the appropriate level Government building. EDIT: The situation is slightly more complex than this. See later on.
• You seem to get a fixed penalty if don't construct the available government building, rather than a compounded one, but that requires more in-game testing to be sure.
• I can also confirm the reports of others that the Imperial Palace is indeed the trigger for Old Marius to reform the Legions, as I got to train Legionaries on the first turn! There may be a secondary date trigger as well though.
  

Major Edit:

Tabulated below are the population levels, for each Government building, for each level of squalor:

Sq% 	GH	GV	GP	PCP	IP
5	1150	1500	1500	1500	1500
10	1900	3000	3000	3000	3000
15	2650	4250	4500	4500	4500
20	3400	5000	6000	6000	6000
25	3850	5750	7500	7500	7500
30	4150	6500	9000	9000	9000
35	4200	7250	10500	10500	10500
40	4550	8000	12000	12000	12000
45	N/a	8750	12750	13500	13500
50	4900	9350	13500	15000	15000
55	5250	9500	14250	16500	16500
60	5600	9700	15000	18000	18000
65	5650	10050	15750	19500	19500
70	5950	10250	16500	21000	21000
75	...	10400	17250	22500	22500
80		10750	18000	24000	24000
85		10900	18350	24750	25500
90		11100	18700	25500	27000
95		11450	18750	26250	28500
100		11750	19050	27000	30000	Patch 1.2 Limits P/O here
105		11800	19400	27750	31500
110		12150	19500	28500	33000
115		N/a	19750	29250	34500
120		12500	20100	30000	36000
125		12850	20250	30750	37500
130		13200	20450	31500	39000
135		13250	...	32250	40500
...		...		...	...
250		...		...	61500	Cap for Growth Squalor

Sq%: Public order penalty from squalor. To get the growth penalty, divide by ten.
GH = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Governor's House.
GV = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Governor's Villa.
GP = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Governor's Palace.
PCP = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Pro-Consul's Palace.
IP = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Imperial Palace.

NB: There is a limit on the amount of disorder that squalor can cause. This seems to be 125%. Growth rate penalty is capped at 25%, which is reached at a population of 61500 (with the Imperial Palace).

See posts further down the thread for explanation of the figures in this table.

End of Major Edit



Methodology

All right, here's what I did:

I started a Brutii game, medium setting. I gave myself a large injection of cash > 1,000,000 denarii. I set all tax rates to normal. Removed both governors from my two cities, and then gave Tarentum a population of 30,000 men from 4,500. I only improved growth buildings (using process_cq), and monitored for squalor.

Immediate effects:

Squalor: 15% > 125%
Growth rate: 2% > -21%
Garrison: 60% > 5%[*]
Taxes: 772>1224 (58.5% increase)
Trade: 238>307 (28% increase)

Constructed: Latifunda, Curia, Pantheon of Juro, and an Arena (for public order, daily games)

Squalor: 100%
Growth rate: -0.5%
Garrison: 5%
Taxes: 1224
Trade: 530

The reduction of squalor came when I constructed the Government buildings, 5% for Pro-Consuls/ 20% for Imperial palace (remember my population is now 30,000)

In my other city, Croton, I did three experiments. In the first one, I increased the population from 4,300 to 30,000, but I then immediately constructed all the growth and water supply buildings. In the 2nd, I did the same, only I then reduced the population back to the 4,300 level and let it grow very rapidly indeed. In the 3rd, I destroyed the water supply buildings and let it grow without them. The idea of the latter two was to study the effects if rapid growth rate with and without water buildings, the first was to gauge any differences between a 30,000-man city with and without adequate water supply.

As with a number of such studies, I'm badly hampered by the intrinsic rounding in the game. For instance, a squalor level of 10% could mean as little as 5.01% (if they round up) or as much as 14.99% if they round down. Even assuming that they round to the nearest 5%, that’s still +/-2.5% either way. This makes it very difficult to determine if the relationship between factors is linear or just slightly non-linear, as that level of error essentially makes observation at the lower end highly suspect.

[*] In another post, I concocted a formula to estimate garrison bonus. Here I can show it working (the garrison was 5 80 man units):

-2.8 + 701*(80*5/4500) = 60%
-2.8 + 701*(80*5/30000) = 6.4%

NB: These calculations only hold true for large units sizes. The game appears to scale the garrison effect according to the average size of the units in the game. So two units of Hastati have the same relatively effect from small to huge unit sizes. Ergo you need to scale appropriately. Multiple the result of the equation by the following factors to get the right result:

• 4 for small
• 2 for normal
• 0.5 for Huge

[Tamur]

Right, I think I've earned my pint this evening...

Ha, that's certainly true! Ingenious methodology there, nice work.

[Doug-Thompson]

Excellent work, therother. Have another pint from me.

So, "happy" buildings (other than the "city hall" buildings you describe") do nothing to curb squalor. They only delay squalor's ill effects.

As I wrote on another forum, the usual formula is an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. Maybe the "formula" with squalor is one ounce per ton.

[andrewt]

By 1%, do you mean 1% population growth bonus or 1% public order.

From my observations, squalor goes up faster the lower your base government building is. I'm not sure whether it's because later buildings have a fixed reduction in squalor or increases the population required to add another point of squalor. I'm currently leaning towards the latter.

[therother]

By 1%, do you mean 1% population growth bonus or 1% public order.

Well, I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring to this, "1% squalor increase equates to 300 extra men." By that I mean that you will get another squalor icon, which represents 5%, every 1500 men. But I'm about to expand on that massively, as it seems to be much more complex than that, so watch this space.

Edit: Sorry, I have just got what you meant. I was so engrossed in what I was doing that I just missed what you were saying. I mean 1% public order.

From my observations, squalor goes up faster the lower your base government building is. I'm not sure whether it's because later buildings have a fixed reduction in squalor or increases the population required to add another point of squalor. I'm currently leaning towards the latter.

As am I.

[Inuyasha12]

NOTE: If you want to get architect vice take your general and build several watchtowers and/or forts. He will earn it in no time. I found this out while building watchtowers along my border with one general.

[Red Harvest]

Doesn't "architect" and such come from the academy? I'm not really sure what the building does...I assumed it gave me some nice ancillaries. Some of my really high management, high influence, high star types seem to have no squalor, despite decent populations.

I've wondered if squalor builds on itself? Seem like you should be rewarded for doing early public water works, roads, walls, and city govt upgrades. On the otherhand, if you did them late it should be slow to fall. Squalor begets squalor.

[Dorkus]

Very interesting post.

I believe you're over-complicating garrison effects. however. I'm pretty sure it's just 0.5% pop for 5% order, up to 80% max effect.

Edit: actually it's more like 0.4 or 0.45% pop for 5% order, but at low levels and normal+ unit size, that's pretty much the same thing.

At least that's what I got when i played around with it a while ago. The relationship does seem to be linear, whatever the precise constant and rounding method. I usually multiply pop% by 12, round up at 2.5 increments, and get the right figure.

For those not enamoured with details, here are my conclusions from a few tests, qualified by the fact that I manipulated the game a little.

Conclusions

• I can confirm, categorically, that the various Temples of Juro (and I suppose other 'growth' temples), and the water supply buildings, both have no effect on squalor itself. Squalor seems to be a factor that is only related to city size, and government building. However, they do counter its effects on public order (via health and culture), whilst farms counter the decrease in growth rate.
• Only the Government buildings and certain Governor traits and ancillary characters, seem to affect the level of squalor, given a constant population. The ancillary characters Geomancer (+1) and Architect (-1) both affect squalor if they are in the governor’s retinue, as well as a number of his traits: alleviators include the Natural Philosophy, Kind Ruler and the Good Builder lines, each varying from 1 to 3 (5 to 15%) in effect depending on the level you reach along those trait lines. The prim and proper trait also affects squalor, reducing it by 1. Traits that add to the problem include the Bad Builder, Miserly, and Cheapskate lines; again their affect is from 5 to 15%, only this time in the wrong direction.
• The growth of squalor appears to be linear, at a rate of approximately 1% per 300 men, assuming you have constructed the appropriate level Government building. EDIT: The situation is slightly more complex than this. See later on.
• You seem to get a fixed penalty if don't construct the available government building, rather than a compounded one, but that requires more in-game testing to be sure.
• I can also confirm the reports of others that the Imperial Palace is indeed the trigger for Old Marius to reform the Legions, as I got to train Legionaries on the first turn! There may be a secondary date trigger as well though.
  

Methodology

All right, here's what I did:

I started a Brutii game, medium setting. I gave myself a large injection of cash > 1,000,000 denarii. I set all tax rates to normal. Removed both governors from my two cities, and then gave Tarentum a population of 30,000 men from 4,500. I only improved growth buildings (using process_cq), and monitored for squalor.

Immediate effects:

Squalor: 15% > 125%
Growth rate: 2% > -21%
Garrison: 60% > 5%[*]
Taxes: 772>1224 (58.5% increase)
Trade: 238>307 (28% increase)

Constructed: Latifunda, Curia, Pantheon of Juro, and an Arena (for public order, daily games)

Squalor: 100%
Growth rate: -0.5%
Garrison: 5%
Taxes: 1224
Trade: 530

The reduction of squalor came when I constructed the Government buildings, 5% for Pro-Consuls/ 20% for Imperial palace (remember my population is now 30,000)

In my other city, Croton, I did three experiments. In the first one, I increased the population from 4,300 to 30,000, but I then immediately constructed all the growth and water supply buildings. In the 2nd, I did the same, only I then reduced the population back to the 4,300 level and let it grow very rapidly indeed. In the 3rd, I destroyed the water supply buildings and let it grow without them. The idea of the latter two was to study the effects if rapid growth rate with and without water buildings, the first was to gauge any differences between a 30,000-man city with and without adequate water supply.

As with a number of such studies, I'm badly hampered by the intrinsic rounding in the game. For instance, a squalor level of 10% could mean as little as 5.01% (if they round up) or as much as 14.99% if they round down. Even assuming that they round to the nearest 5%, that’s still +/-2.5% either way. This makes it very difficult to determine if the relationship between factors is linear or just slightly non-linear, as that level of error essentially makes observation at the lower end highly suspect.

[*] In another post, I concocted a formula for garrison bonus. Here I can show it working (the garrison was 5 80 man units):

-2.8 + 701*(80*5/4500) = 60%
-2.8 + 701*(80*5/30000) = 6.4%

Right, I think I've earned my pint this evening...


Major edit

Tabulated below are the population levels, for each Government building, for each level of squalor.

Sq%: Public order penalty from squalor. To get the growth penalty, divide by ten.
GV = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Governor's Villa.
GP = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Governor's Palace.

Sq%	GV	GP
5	1500	1500
10	3000	3000
15	4250	4500
20	5000	6000
25	5750	7500
30	6500	9000
35	7250	10500
40	8000	12000
45	8750	12750
50	9350	13500
55	9500	14250
60	9700	15000
65	10050	15750
70	10250	16500
75	10400	17250
80	10750	18000
85	10900	18350
90	11100	18700
95	11450	18750
100	11750	19050
105	11800	19400
110	12150	19500
115	N/a	19750
120	12500	20100
125	12850	20250
130	13200	20450
135	13250
...

NB: There is a limit on the amount of disorder that squalor can cause. This seems to be 125%. I don't believe there is, in any practical sense, a similar limit for the growth rate penalty.

See posts further down the thread for explanation of the figures in this table

[Doug-Thompson]

Does the training of units effect squalor more than it effects the general population?

For instance, I send a bunch of ships that need retraining to a port of a city with lots of squalor. A total of 300 or so "sailors" are taken from the general population.

However, does the squalor go down for 300 population at a fixed rate, or do the people living in squalor "get a job" in the navy, thereby reducing squalor more?

[Dorkus]

Does the training of units effect squalor more than it effects the general population?

For instance, I send a bunch of ships that need retraining to a port of a city with lots of squalor. A total of 300 or so "sailors" are taken from the general population.

However, does the squalor go down for 300 population at a fixed rate, or do the people living in squalor "get a job" in the navy, thereby reducing squalor more?

don't think it makes a difference. pop is pop. note that 300 men will not affect squalor at all (unless you're on the marign), since the game moves in 5% increments.

[therother]

Hmm, just starting a more conventional examination of squalor, trying to clarify the relationship between population, squalor and the effect of the 'Town Hall'. I'm still running it, but I thought I should air my preliminary findings/suspicions.

The problem with the previous investigation was that I never studied the development of squalor with anything lower than an Imperial Palace. With the top level of governance, does seem that a 1% squalor increase equates to 300 extra men.

However, it's becoming clear that is not the case for the lower buildings. It seems to me, from the raw data I'm collecting, that the ratio is closer to ~150 men to 1% increase in squalor. I suppose this is what the game means that squalor will go out of control if you don’t upgrade the governor's residence!

There are still some a few questions I have. I'm going to upgrade one of my cities, whilst leaving the other to rot with just the Governor's Villa. Hopefully I can more sharply determine the rates, as there are huge error bars on the gradient at the moment!

PS Cheers Tamur and Doug-Thompson. I was due a Deuchars (obligatory, parochial alcohol reference).

[therother]

Growth rate penalty is capped at 25%, which is reached at a population of 61500 (with the Imperial Palace). Updated first post with the info.