Good Books on the Sengoku Jidai period wanted

[Methabaron]

Anyone can recommend a good, serious and at the same time entertaining, book on the Sengoku Jidai period?

Metha

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

[The Black Ship]

Look on the "Good Books?" thread, it'll give you a few. Taiko was my personal fav.

[solypsist]

I realize swSeal likes to run a tight ship, but maybe if he hadn't been so quick to delete so many posts so soon, this question might have been answered simply by looking around.
(i asked the same question weeks ago and got some really good answers, which led me to read Taiko.)

whoops. nevermind. when i last logged on, there were about 4 topics listed on here, now it seems they're all back. ok. i just noticed it has to do with the fact that im using different computers to access this forum. at home, i have it as "View From Last Day" while on here it's on "View From Last 45 Days" so that answers that. let that be a lesson to you, people


[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 11-07-2000).]

[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 11-07-2000).]

[FwSeal]

solypist, I am shocked you'd think me for such a iron-fisted tyrant - just look at my picture - doesn't he look reasonable?

[The Black Ship]

Kinda looks like Picard gone Klingon

[solypsist]

lol@ B.S.

actually, FWSeal, yours is the only forum user/category that isn't holding some sort of weapon..so that makes you pretty reasonable. Nothing wrong with being a tyrant, though, too....

(so what's the picture being used with the Game Developer category? I don't seem to remember it.)

[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 11-08-2000).]

[The Scourge]

Well ive just finished Stephen Turnballs Samurai ,a Military History ,and that was a great read.
As you can tell from the title ,it just about covers everything.
But id also like to know if there are anymore good books on the period your seeking.

[solypsist]

I have to say that while Taiko is a good read, it's a bit too Horatio Alger in severl spots. Parts where the protagonist (in whatever name he's using in that particular chapter) simplywalks up to besieged castles, or through gates of ferocious samurai, and then "talks from his heart" - to paraphrase, and everything ends up peaches is sort of ridiculous.
Otherwise, I'm enjoying the parts where we get an author's insight into Nobunaga.

[FwSeal]

There are indeed certain elements of Taiko which are a bit outlandish (ostensibly, at least). At the same time, almost everything is based on his legend, which is to say, Hideyoshi is being portrayed as Hideyoshi was seen, factually or otherwise. His great gift, it was said even in his own time, was his almost uncanny ability to read people and zero in on what made them tick. He was also said to have been exceedingly charismatic, a quality both Nobunaga and Ieyasu lacked in varying degrees. Where Nobunaga was often impatient and dominating and Ieyasu was cold and often inscurtable, Hideyoshi could be genial and disarming. Its hard to say how much Taiko blows this out of proportion (or rather, the extent to which it does). At any rate, Taiko does give one the straight view of the 'popular' Hideyoshi, who is REPUTED to have done most of the things mentioned in the book (notice REPUTED).

[The Scourge]

Are we talking fiction ,or nonfiction ,here?

[FwSeal]

This is a good point to mention that the Japanese are very fond of what we would call historical fiction. The interesting thing about HF in Japan is that it can sometimes amount to a straight history with some liberties taken with what the charactors might have been thinking at the time, For example, I'd almost finished a book about the last shogun, Tokugawa Yoshinobu, before I noticed that it was actually historical fiction - it had just seemed like a spirited work of history to me.
Taiko falls somewhere below the above. Mostly factual, Yoshikawa takes liberties with what Hideyoshi might have said and also how some events may have actually played out. Basically, he takes all of the beloved legends and stories and weaves them together - of course, with a less then critical eye.

[The Black Ship]

Sometimes historical fiction is all you can have on an era. Take the Gary Jennings books on Aztec, a good read but still HF. Or Collen McCollough's series on Republican Rome- great reads all!!! HF as a genre isn't bad, it isn't perfect, but it isn't bad

[solypsist]

ive read jennings book Aztec (as well as his other book, Raptor) and these are definitely far from historical fiction. more like fiction with a few words in italics thrown in and a setting, like a stageplay.
the best book on aztecs is Prescott's Conquest of Mexico, which curiosuly enough is still considered the bext definitive writing on that whole shebang, despite the fact that Prescott wrote the entire thing without ever leaving his den in New England. Nuts, isnt it....
HF can only be problem when the person reading it begins to use the book as a measuring guide against further real historical knowledge in the future. For example, after watching the Takeda fall in Kurosawa's movie (I forget the name right now) I falsely assumed that was how it all ended in real life (the movie never mentions that Takeda's son takes over and things continue for a few years), until I was 'straightened out' by reading Taiko, yet another HF which could skew my "historical knowledge" even further as far as Takeda is concerned.
i hope i didnt make my explanation too convoluted.

[FwSeal]

Well, the parts of Taiko that concern the fall of the Takeda all match up with modern views of the that event (to put it once way, it really was that pitiful...)
The areas where Taiko could be considered as being more or less ficitonal concern Hideyoshi's early career. While many legends have endured throughout the years, Japanese historians admit that Hideyoshi himself doesn't even begin to appear in actual documents until sometime after 1567. His early life is a mystery - even the biography that he himself ordered starts in 1577. To everyone, he was most reticent about his life prior to being given land in Omi after the fall of the Asai in 1573. He did admit to having the most humble of roots but balanced this with a story he was wont to tell that decribed a heavenly beam of light entering his mother's body while she was pregant with him. He was very aware that his claims of hegemony rested on rather fragile grounds; whereas others might claim pedigree as a basis for rule, Hideyoshi sought to win the loyalty of the realm's great names with his natural charisma and debts of obligation. He also worked to overawe them with his mighty castles and splendid cultural endeavors. At the same time, both Nobunaga and Tokugawa Ieyasu felt compelled to provide some sort of genealogical foundation for their rule: Nobunaga produced the thinnest of links to the long-fallen Taira clan while Ieyasu arranged for two family trees to be prepared - one of which claimed Minamoto descent (to assist in his eventual bid for the shogunate) and one that boasted of a Fujiwara pedigree (should he have to content himself with courtly titles and ranks).

[Ronin]

I´ve read 3 books by stephen turnbull and i must say i liked them a lot.

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"yama yama tani tani"- Oda Nobunaga.
on every montain and in every valley!

[Ieyasu]

Speaking of Turnbull, you may want to look at "The Samurai Sourcebook" by Stephen Turnbull, Metha.

It has a fine over-view on the period, and has a wonderful section on personalities and heraldy. Check it out if you haven't already.

Another by Trumbull, "Samurai Warfare". I love anything that has strategic diagrams on the battles in discussion. Great read and informative.