Viking Age: Total War!

[Meneldil]

Well, if you need some help, I think I can work on the mapping. I have some knowledge about russians, frankish and possibly english provinces.

[Ranika]

The Welsh did have a similar shortsword unit, so using the same wouldn't be bad, but the Irish ones did not use shields too often in this period, early medieval Irish armies used shields more extensively. These swordsman should be a very early unit, with very little armor, and if they have shields, rather poor ones, so little shield defense.

I've no problem with two Kern units, that sounds fine to me, but if you can get a modeller on board for the project, you could model it all into one unit. That would save space, by removing one unit, since you can only have 300 units total.

As for the bare legs remark, that is proper. You see, the leine, the shirt worn by Irish and Scots (and the Manx, too), comes only to the knee. So, the legs are generally bare. Only professional soldiers, in combat, wore trews (pants). On a statue, a leine looks like a kilt, it comes down about the same length, but kilts were not used until well into the late middle ages/early renaissance. In day-to-day wear, the average citizen, and even most of the arras, wore a leine, so their legs would be bare.

As for using the same Royal Guard, then go with Ridire. The Scots and Irish both used them, and the Welsh had an identical class of bodyguards, as did the pre-Nordic Manx and the pre-Saxon Corns. Ridire itself is the Saxon name that was used for all of them, they all had unique names though, but are commonly recognized as Ridire.

And remember, the Irish flag is blue, not green, with a yellow Irish harp, and the Scots had just adopted St. Andrew's Cross for their flag (white criss-cross on a blue field) around 890. The flag of Leinster, and Dublin, for that matter, for a while anyway, was identical to the Irish flag, except the field was green.

Good then, that battles with the Scandinavians will be long, historically accurate, that. Brian Boroime used to say, when campaigning against the vikings and their Leinstermen allies; "The problem with the Danes is that they don't want to leave, and will fight until they're all dead. Their problem is that we'll do the same." Gaels, Scottish and Irish, were fiercely nationalistic, even though real nationalism wouldn't be typified until the French revolution, but this was really similar, and generally very religious. It'll be fun to see them fight with the Nordic invaders (Danes, in Ireland, most people assume the invaders there were from Hordaland and such, but the truth is, they were mainly Danes, and sometimes a few Jutes, however, the Irish called ALL Nords Danes, except those from Hordaland and Iceland, who were called Garedhgolth, Infernal Goths).

On Welsh horse archers, I was a bit surprised, initially, too, as they were a type of skilled horse archer, not unlike the steppe people utilized, and likely comparable in their skill. But, they are a footnote in history, thus often overlooked, because they were overshadowed, easily, by the skill and science of Welsh longbows. However, they would give a unique dimension, I think, to a Welsh faction in the British isles. And while the Welsh would share some units with the Irish/Scots, be careful to not make them too similar, as the Welsh, being of Brythonic extraction, not Goedelic, were quite different in many aspects, including militarily. However, all did have lightly armored swordsman on a clan level, for raiding, that were sometimes employed to fight larger enemies. If possible, try and divide Wales into a north half (Morganwydd) and a south half (Gwynydd), so the Welsh have more than one province. They won't be big, but, then, many of the original provinces for Rome weren't huge (Palma). The cities could be at Dinas Powys or Caernoforn, and Dyfydd or Cardiff in the south.

[Ranika]

I'd also make Claymore Warriors both Irish and Scottish. While the Irish ones were actually called Lewcach, and used a bit larger of a sword, they served the same purpose in battle and were very similar, as well as the claymore being an outgrowth of the Irish lewing sword. However, at the time, keep in mind that the claymore did not yet have the 'sloping' v-guard and quillons, it had a straight guard. The lewing sword had a sloping v-guard, but the tip was also rounded (it was so long that stabbing was simply never done with it). The handle of a lewing sword is also much longer (actually, it's so long that the animations for the Falxmen could probably be used, as they grip their falx with their hands so far apart). It has a 'four-hand grip', as the martial art for using the lewing sword was complicated with many types of slashes that required the different possible grips. The claymore was more simplified, with a shorter grip, and utilized a mixture of Germanic and Irish two-handed sword styles, using only a single type of grip.

[Ranika]

Also, to note, while the Irish did use Sinoach Warriors (though far more rarely than Scots), who themselves used bows, they weren't really 'archers' in the classic sense, so I stand by my statements on the lack of Irish archers (the Irish hired merc archers from Wales and Mann, usually). They were a horde of men trained to hide, and get themselves close to nobility or a small unit, pepper them with arrows, and then engage in a melee. They were more akin to battlefield assassins, not intended to back up any other unit or assist in the main battle, but rather, to disrupt the command of the the opposing side. It's a pity a unit can't have an ability allowing it to be placed outside of the region that a faction can place units in, as that could be used to represent the forward scout and disrupt status of the Sinoach Warriors, but that's a pipe dream. In any event, their implementation, if used, should be as a small unit, of about 12-20 men, in a 'horde' formation, who can hide anywhere.

However, I'd not give them to the Irish, as they didn't use them nearly as often.

[Ranika]

I have forgotten to ask, have you decided upon just how large, for sure, you wish the map to be? How far east/how far south? It'd give me a better idea of how to recommend placement of mercenaries, like gallowglass, if I knew the general size of the potential areas. The gallowglass, for example, in a map with at least four Irish provinces, and a few in Scotland, would make more sense to have them as mercenaries only in the north of those countries, were they were most often employed. But, if smaller, then having them placed in all of the countries would probably be better.

[Leet Eriksson]

I would like to contribute to this mod a little bit, if you wouldn't mind.

Cordoba had control of Tangiers and were at war with the Zenata tribe at that time, also the spanish factions are united here (they weren't), if i recall correctly, Crodoba had several trade treaties with leon (a state north of Lisbon) i can't recall the names of the other 2 states but they were at peace.

Also the unit lists for Fatimids, Cordoba and Abassids are pretty bland, i'll just do renames for them if you wouldn't mind.

[Speiz_Bankurt]

King Yngvar! Yes I am very sure, Magyars would not have used Slavic warriors. When the Magyars invaded present day Hungary, Slavic presence was minimal, as far as I remember only one or two very small settlements have been found on the very far north west part of the country by archeologists. The Moldavians (who were Slavic) claimed the land as part of their territory, but they did not populate the area. Most of the rest of the country was populated by Avars, whose settlements and cemetaries have been found everywhere, all over the place. I think there were some turkic bulgarians in the eastern part of the country too. All these people would have been culturally similar (perhaps even related)to the Magyars, perhaps they joined them and later on were assimilated.
If you're thinking about game balance and want an infantry unit for this faction you could invent some Avar unit. They probably would have had a spear or an axe unit, but once again they were a horse culture too! But for the Magyars I would go with cav only, they simply did not fight on foot. The whole horse archery thing worked out beautifully for them until they got beaten at Leichfield by the Germans.

[legend]

mayby some pics of the irish warriors would help the skinners
and id like 2 see some irish warriors me being a O'Brien (note the irish spelling )

[Ranika]

Irish spelling? O'Brien is an Anglicized version of the name. The true Irish spelling is Ui Boroime, or the later Ui Brean. O' is always the Anglicized version. Also, have no pictures I can find online, most of my knowledge of Irish, Scottish, and Welsh soldiers come from dark age period chronicles, mainly Irish monks, who were rather painstaking in their notations on the various soldiers.

[legend]

i meant that it wasnt o'brian but o'brien u wont find the first as often as the second in ierland its more american (or somthing)

[The_Doctor]

After my saxon invasion mod died within hours of being started, King Yngvar suggested that I help with this mod. So here I am.

I have some ideas for the mod.

1. The map ,in my opinion, is far to big for a Viking age mod. I know the Vikings raided in the mediterran a few times, but they didn't conquer anything. If you include the spanish, muslim countries, the holy roman empire etc, you will end up with countries that are more powerful and important than the Vikings. I think the map should include the northern part of europe, Iceland, Greenland, the baltic states and parts of russia. Maybe even Vinland (modern day Newfoundland)

2. The Vangrian Guard could be represented by a +1 experience building for some of the Viking factions e.g Novgorod, kiev.

3. I think the senate has to be on the map or the game will not work, if this is the case it could be put in Vinland, so it does not influence the game too much.

I know how to make new maps coding-wise, but the drawing bit would result in my computer going out of my window and being smashed into a billion pieces. I tried to make a map of Britain and Ireland and it nearly killed me, it just looked so wrong and messed up. I can change a map, but not start one

I am going to try to make some new units and look into other parts of the game. So I should be useful soon.

[King Yngvar]

And remember, the Irish flag is blue, not green, with a yellow Irish harp, and the Scots had just adopted St. Andrew's Cross for their flag (white criss-cross on a blue field) around 890. The flag of Leinster, and Dublin, for that matter, for a while anyway, was identical to the Irish flag, except the field was green.

Interresting. Though Frankish Kingdom and Scotland will both be blue. Don't want too much of the same color, might need to use the Leinster flag there.

Good then, that battles with the Scandinavians will be long, historically accurate, that. Brian Boroime used to say, when campaigning against the vikings and their Leinstermen allies; "The problem with the Danes is that they don't want to leave, and will fight until they're all dead. Their problem is that we'll do the same." Gaels, Scottish and Irish, were fiercely nationalistic, even though real nationalism wouldn't be typified until the French revolution, but this was really similar, and generally very religious. It'll be fun to see them fight with the Nordic invaders (Danes, in Ireland, most people assume the invaders there were from Hordaland and such, but the truth is, they were mainly Danes, and sometimes a few Jutes, however, the Irish called ALL Nords Danes, except those from Hordaland and Iceland, who were called Garedhgolth, Infernal Goths).

Actually, while danes was used by English and normannes (spelling?) was used by French, the Irish called them men of lochlann. White lochlann and black lochlann was appearantly their names from Norway and Denmark. White lochlann being Norway. Olaf the White was kalled so because he was from Norway. I believe it had to do with the colour on the shields (might be on their cloaks). The first "Dublin king", Thorgest (or Turgeis as the Irish called him), was also from Norway. So the Dublin line of kings was Norwegian. And most of the settlers were Norwegians as well. In Normandy the case is pherhaps a little different, there the ruler was Norwegian while most of his followers was probably Danes.

However, I'd not give them to the Irish, as they didn't use them nearly as often.

In addition to being a Scottish unit, sinoach could be a mercenary unit. Thank you.

Hmm, Ranika, do you know of any good pictures we could use as a model for the skinning of those Irish units?

I have forgotten to ask, have you decided upon just how large, for sure, you wish the map to be? How far east/how far south? It'd give me a better idea of how to recommend placement of mercenaries, like gallowglass, if I knew the general size of the potential areas. The gallowglass, for example, in a map with at least four Irish provinces, and a few in Scotland, would make more sense to have them as mercenaries only in the north of those countries, were they were most often employed. But, if smaller, then having them placed in all of the countries would probably be better.

I was thinking about 3 provinces in Ireland (one held by Dublin-York) and 3 in Scotland (one held by Norway). England will have 4 (maybe 5) and Wales 1 (maybe 2).
This may be changed though, as this is just the beginning phase of the mod.

On Welsh horse archers, I was a bit surprised, initially, too, as they were a type of skilled horse archer, not unlike the steppe people utilized, and likely comparable in their skill. But, they are a footnote in history, thus often overlooked, because they were overshadowed, easily, by the skill and science of Welsh longbows. However, they would give a unique dimension, I think, to a Welsh faction in the British isles.

Sounds like they will be a tough nut to crack for Irishmen and Vikings

I've no problem with two Kern units, that sounds fine to me, but if you can get a modeller on board for the project, you could model it all into one unit. That would save space, by removing one unit, since you can only have 300 units total.

Probably the smartest, making kerns only skirmisher (don't want overpowered peasants) may be the smartest. The bonnaghts will get both throwing and normal spear.

As for the bare legs remark, that is proper. You see, the leine, the shirt worn by Irish and Scots (and the Manx, too), comes only to the knee. So, the legs are generally bare. Only professional soldiers, in combat, wore trews (pants). On a statue, a leine looks like a kilt, it comes down about the same length, but kilts were not used until well into the late middle ages/early renaissance. In day-to-day wear, the average citizen, and even most of the arras, wore a leine, so their legs would be bare.

As for using the same Royal Guard, then go with Ridire. The Scots and Irish both used them, and the Welsh had an identical class of bodyguards, as did the pre-Nordic Manx and the pre-Saxon Corns. Ridire itself is the Saxon name that was used for all of them, they all had unique names though, but are commonly recognized as Ridire.

Hmm, so our king wore poor-man clothing?

Ridire it is.

King Yngvar! Yes I am very sure, Magyars would not have used Slavic warriors. When the Magyars invaded present day Hungary, Slavic presence was minimal, as far as I remember only one or two very small settlements have been found on the very far north west part of the country by archeologists. The Moldavians (who were Slavic) claimed the land as part of their territory, but they did not populate the area. Most of the rest of the country was populated by Avars, whose settlements and cemetaries have been found everywhere, all over the place. I think there were some turkic bulgarians in the eastern part of the country too. All these people would have been culturally similar (perhaps even related)to the Magyars, perhaps they joined them and later on were assimilated.
If you're thinking about game balance and want an infantry unit for this faction you could invent some Avar unit. They probably would have had a spear or an axe unit, but once again they were a horse culture too! But for the Magyars I would go with cav only, they simply did not fight on foot. The whole horse archery thing worked out beautifully for them until they got beaten at Leichfield by the Germans.

They need some infantry, will limit it to maybe a spear unit, axe/sword unit and maybe an archer. Or we could just overpower their cavalry...

I would like to contribute to this mod a little bit, if you wouldn't mind.

Cordoba had control of Tangiers and were at war with the Zenata tribe at that time, also the spanish factions are united here (they weren't), if i recall correctly, Crodoba had several trade treaties with leon (a state north of Lisbon) i can't recall the names of the other 2 states but they were at peace.

Also the unit lists for Fatimids, Cordoba and Abassids are pretty bland, i'll just do renames for them if you wouldn't mind.

Asturia, Galicia and Pamplona, the latter being Navarrans (basques). However I do not wish such small provinces to be made, Asturia should be one faction and they will probably have one or two provinces. About the Morocco area, it was held by the Idrisid dynasty at that time. These were so insignificent that I do not even see a point of having them in this mod. The Idrisids controlled parts of modern day Morocco and parts of Algiers. At various occations, 920-925, 927-937 and 974-987, their land was occupied by Fatimids. Their "kingdom" fell in 974. Leaving the area as rebel land is just as good.

I know that the unit names for Muslim factions are silly and probably they are all copied from other games. My knowledge of Muslim history is pretty much "overall", I know about the dynasties who ruled when and where, the name of some rulers, and some of their political history. Not much detail. I would appreciate if you would like to rename them

Well, if you need some help, I think I can work on the mapping. I have some knowledge about russians, frankish and possibly english provinces.

Sounds good, if you would like to be our mapmaker. See the map, this is the idea we will base it on.

Anyone who wish to contact me outside the forum: yngvarv@hotmail.com.

[Meneldil]

I have started to work on the map, mostly changing or adding provinces and settlements. I'll post some screens later if I manage to correct all the errors.

As for the Senate, I was thinking about putting him as the Papal States, and make both Frankish Empire roman-like factions. I think that's the best way to deal with this problem, as it is somewhat accurate.

[Leet Eriksson]

Thanks , here is the renamed list, i will not list stats as i realise it would be very unbalanced you do the stats as you see fit.

This is before it was editied :-

Abbasid Caliphate

Peasants
Desert Bowmen
Syrian Archers
Crossbowmen -
Spearmen
Saracen Infantry
Nubian Spearmen -
Skirmishers
Beduin Camels -
Saracen Cavalry
Horse Archers
Ghulam Cavalry
Royal Cavalry

This is After the Edition :-

Falahin - peasants
Arab Warband - (instead of Saracen infantry and Skirmishers) (skirmishers, good attack, armed with javelins, light chain armour)
Arab Cavalry - (instead of Saracen Cavalry) (light cavalry, javalin armed/light lances)
Askari - Spearmen (should be veterans, armoured)
Ghulam Cavalry - (heavy cavalry,armoured, good charge)
Royal Ghulam - (better version for royality only)
Turkoman Cavalry - (Instead of horse archers) (horse archer that can skirmish, decent armour)
Arab Longbows - (instead of Desert Archers) (good shooting skill)
Syrian Archers - (good shooting skill, can skirmish)

Units with "-" in the quote remain unchanged.

Actually to make your task easier King Yngvar the abassid units could also be used by the fatimids and cordobans to some extent (cordobans also had spanish, and visigoth recruits, Visigoth are mainly cavalry), Turkic units are used by abassids mostly, so they don't apply for cordobans and fatimids.

Also i hope no one from the Medieval mods mind if i used the same unit names here . i'll try to refine the lists some more, but as for now the Abassids are done, i'll try to modify the fatimids and Cordobans a bit in a later post, my final post will probably have descriptions for these units.

[Meneldil]

Here's a screenshot of some new provinces in the north of france

http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=22149

I made that fairly easily, though an annoying bug made me to restart everything (I firstly had all the whole France and northen Spain remade).


Adding provinces seems not that hard, the main problem will IMO adding territories in the north. I haven't tried to do that today, but I'll have a look at it tomorrow, if possible

[Ranika]

Well, the blue of the flag of Ireland should actually be more pale. While it is often now depicted as dark blue, it's much lighter than the Scottish flag is. And Brian DID call them Danes, it appears in his writings. The general Irish names used for the vikings were more slang than they were a designation of nationalities. On Irish maps, it's important to note that all of Scandinavia is called Doahnbhuil, Daneland. While the Irish knew of multiple kingdoms there, all of them, in the 'upper crust' of educated Irish society, were called Danes (Doahn in the old Irish of the west of Connacht). Subsequently, the names applied to different Scandinavians are attributable, largely, to the Leinstermen, who were often working with the vikings. Most of the Irish simply weren't aware there any differences, and in Connacht and Munster especially, the general slang term for all Scandinavians was Bohrcach, Road Men, though, I honestly don't know WHY they were called Road Men.

Of the leine, it's not poor man's clothing. Kings and the like wore it too, but they also had the option open to robes and the like. Leine, to the contrary of being a poor man's clothing, could be quite rich in appearance, with many ornaments sewn on, or elaborate designs or weaves. The leine was casual clothing for most Irish nobility, while robes and cloaks were more for ceremonies or formal occassions, and even then, many would forego such clothing in favor of the leine, which was considered more comfortable much of the time. Note that I mention that the arras/aires wore them too. Aires are Irish nobility.

As for bonnaghts, they should only have one spear to throw, and then use their melee spear. Kerns should have a spear for melee, but no anti-cavalry bonus, I think, as it was generally a short spear meant to engage infantry with. Well, 'infantry', kerns were an anti-levymen force, really.

Addendum: I was reading, and the name 'bohrcach trodai' shows up, denoting viking mercenaries. These mercenaries were largely fairly well equipped warriors, with shields, swords, spears, or axes, and high quality shields. In all cases but the axes, they appear to have provided their own equipment. I say not for the axes, because their are letters written asking for axes to be supplied for a group of bohrcach trodai, as the ri of the Thomond tribe wanted some axemen for fighting the chainmaille heavy clan force of the Mac Nois, and he already had as many axemen as he could get from the clan, without resorting to untrained levies, which wouldn't be any good at all against the well-trained force of the Mac Nois.

[Ranika]

Some other mercenaries possible for northern Britain and Ireland:

Gael Gaedhil Buanna, while generally brigands and thieves, during wartime, they were often paid to fight, and Brian Boroime, especially, used them. He would actually raise entire forces of Gael Gaedhil and send them raiding parts of modern England and Scotland, just to get rid of them, until they were slaughtered in massive numbers at the Battle of Clontarf (Brian's intention for their presence, the chance to get them killed). Gael Gaedhil are of Gaelic and Nordic blood, and generally adopted fighting techniques from both. They used, often, axes or swords, a javelin, a leather shirt (though just as often, they would be totally unarmored, sometimes bare chested and wearing trews) and solid wood shield (often taken or bought from vikings), usually provided for them, and accompanied this equipment with whatever other armor or weapons they may have 'cannabalized' from their raiding and thieving. Both the Gaels and the vikings HATED Gael Gaedhil, and made no secret of it, but their quality combat skills made them useful for softening up heavier infantry formations. The Gael Gaedhil were used all over Ireland, and in Alba and the Hebrides, as well, though they showed up their much more rarely. (Buanna is simply a Gaelic word meaning a mercenary, and is thus applied to Gael Gaedhil in this case, to differentiate them from the normal 'thief' Gael Gaedhil).

Gallowglass were already discussed. I don't object to their presence, though they'd not be mentioned by name until the mid 1200s. However, there are some reports of mercenaries from the Hebrides, and the descriptions are similar. They used chainmaille, an axe on a long pole, and wore an iron helmet, often of Norman make. They were present in the north of Ireland all over north Scotland, on the Isle of Mann, and along the west English and Welsh coasts. Because of the earlier reports of similar warriors, by Donall Ui Arran.

Gorddgwas/Ordgwas are Welsh or Cornish (with the respective spellings) mercenary soldiers who used warhammers. These hammers were a heavy head on a two foot grip, with a large shield. They were used throughout Wales, Cornwall, and much of Great Britain, as well as south-east Ireland, and the south-west shores of modern day Scotland. They dressed in a saffron tunic, with pants, and leather shoes, and wore a leather cap. If used, this unit should have the 'ap' (armor piercing) trait for their attack, as their hammer had a flat head, with a pick side, so as to puncture various types of armor. While it may seem like a unit to give to the Welsh as buildable, the notable part of their name is 'gwas', which is a 'military servant', implying some one paid to fight, not trained into the army.

Lendan is the word for 'Concubine' (and also the basis of the Irish word leannán, meaning 'sweetheart'). Soailtaght Lendan Ysgien were Manx male, concubine 'knife' fighters (Soailtaght is 'an effeminate male', Ysgien is the Welsh 'knife'). However, they were niether, generally, assumed to be effeminate, nor did they fight with knives, but instead with shortswords, and in groups of twelve. They were bought, being technically slaves, and were intended for 'accompaniement' for warriors who'd be spending a long time on campaign (and thus away from women, and they served the additional bonus of being efficient ambushers). Like most dark age 'specialized' soldiers, these are a footnote, but, for more obvious reasons. The 'male concubine soldier' isn't exactly something you'd brag about. They're mentioned by Saint Deiniol, a Welsh saint who voiced only slight disapproval of them, saying that while he did not fully approve, he hoped they would at least help stem constant rape that would occur often when an army sacked a town or city, much like Thomas Aquinas's arguments in the favor of legalized prostitution, to stem the tide of domestic sexual abuses in France. Deiniol's main complaint, aside from their...ancillary purposes (yes, that'll do nicely), is that they were slaves. He describes them as using shortswords, and wearing red cloaks. Their availability would be in, likely, the Celtic areas of Britain, as they were more acceptable there, usually, than in the Roman rite areas of the church.

Manx Fer Cliwe were Manx warriors. While very rare to be hired by outside armies, the Manx sometimes did hire themselves to eastern Irish armies, as well as to western British armies. Fer Cliwe is literally 'man sword', but is translated to English as 'sword bearer', or 'swordsmen'. The Manx swordsmen were fairly unique, they were of Nordo-Gaelic extraction, and used a combination of viking, Gaelic, and Welsh arms and armor. Their principle weapon was a viking sword, and they wore thick leather brigadines with metal studs on them (also a viking introduction, I think). They used oval shields of a Welsh design, probably originally intended to be used from horseback.

Saighdearbuanna are Welsh mercenary archers in Ireland and Scotland. Isn't much to be said about them, really. They dressed in light tunics and pants, with leather shoes, and used Welsh shortbows. If it's possible to have light archers as a buildable unit, and as mercenaries, that'd be the most workable. These were the Irish mercenary archers I believe I mentioned briefly.


A minor change, Iobnaght is the name given in Munster, but much more common to Irish axemen is tuagachnaght.

[King Yngvar]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...4&page=1&pp=30 Meneldil, it seems there is a possibility to expand the map, the guys over at "Europa Barbarorum" is attempting this. Thank you for starting the work on the campaign map, I could unfortunately not connect to the link you posted. Would you like to be our mapmaker then?

After my saxon invasion mod died within hours of being started, King Yngvar suggested that I help with this mod. So here I am.

I have some ideas for the mod.

1. The map ,in my opinion, is far to big for a Viking age mod. I know the Vikings raided in the mediterran a few times, but they didn't conquer anything. If you include the spanish, muslim countries, the holy roman empire etc, you will end up with countries that are more powerful and important than the Vikings. I think the map should include the northern part of europe, Iceland, Greenland, the baltic states and parts of russia. Maybe even Vinland (modern day Newfoundland)

2. The Vangrian Guard could be represented by a +1 experience building for some of the Viking factions e.g Novgorod, kiev.

3. I think the senate has to be on the map or the game will not work, if this is the case it could be put in Vinland, so it does not influence the game too much.

I know how to make new maps coding-wise, but the drawing bit would result in my computer going out of my window and being smashed into a billion pieces. I tried to make a map of Britain and Ireland and it nearly killed me, it just looked so wrong and messed up. I can change a map, but not start one

I am going to try to make some new units and look into other parts of the game. So I should be useful soon.

Sorry I overlooked you post yesterday as I was posting at the same time. If you are good at making units. I would like to have you on the team. There is another guy as well that may be into unit making, I am still not sure. But the more people the better. About the Vikings not becoming important, well the solution to that is to make them powerful. What would be essential for a Viking kingdom to maintain strength would be to unite the Scandinavian kingdoms into one. Norway's starting strength compared to the others would be amount of provinces, Denmark's would be wealth of provinces, while Sweden's would be that they can easily expand into un-owned territory to the east (Finland and the Baltics). About the Senate, really? Well, maybe we could make a far gone island for them (in the corner somewhere).

And Brian DID call them Danes, it appears in his writings.

He called them Danes, but that did not mean they were from Denmark. It was a term used on everyone who spoke "danish tongue" (Old-Norse).

As for bonnaghts, they should only have one spear to throw, and then use their melee spear. Kerns should have a spear for melee, but no anti-cavalry bonus, I think, as it was generally a short spear meant to engage infantry with. Well, 'infantry', kerns were an anti-levymen force, really.

Alright, I may have misunderstood it them. Kerns can be skirmishers, just that they have a short spear instead of dagger to fight with in melee.



Meneldil, I shall make a province idea and name the provinces now...

[Ranika]

The Scottish knifemen would be more like skirmishers, identical really. They threw four or five short javelins before drawing a bollock knife to melee with.

[King Yngvar]

Heh, forget what I said about placing the Senate in some distant corner, the papacy is the senate and gives "senate missions" to catholic kingdoms. You can change the name right?

[King Yngvar]

Abbasid Caliphate

Falahin - (muslim peasants, maybe the rest of the Muslims shall use the same then)
Arab Warband - (instead of Saracen infantry and Skirmishers) (skirmishers, good attack, armed with javelins, light chain armour)
Arab Cavalry - (instead of Saracen Cavalry) (light cavalry, javalin armed/light lances)
Nubian Spearmen (slightly better than spearmen)
Askari Spearmen (should be veterans, armoured)
Bedouin Camels
Ghulam Cavalry - (heavy cavalry,armoured, good charge)
Royal Ghulam - (better version for royality only)
Horse Archers (keep this, standard "eastern" horse archers, turkoman will be a better version)
Turkoman Cavalry - (Instead of horse archers) (horse archer that can skirmish, decent armour)
Crossbowmen
Arab Longbows - (instead of Desert Archers) (good shooting skill)
Syrian Archers - (good shooting skill, can skirmish)

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The Scottish knifemen would be more like skirmishers, identical really. They threw four or five short javelins before drawing a bollock knife to melee with.

Umm, what about making a "Celtic Peasant" for them all, that throw spears and then draw up knives?

NEW MAP



The idea with those green provinces in Finland, you might be wondering about them. But I tought that the load of rebel provinces in the east would make it simple for the Swedes and Kijevans, so adding a competitor in the Baltic region would be nice. It is not necessary, just another idea...

Amount of provinces: 160

I have cut down on provinces some places. Rhodes is no longer a province for example, Sicilia will be two instead of three and Tunisia will also just be one province. To strengthen the Scandinavians I think there should be an extra province in Sweden, two Denmark and two in Norway. Sweden gets one of the extra province in Denmark, Sudr-Jylland (town - Hedeby) because Swedes controlled that point at the time this game starts. Sweden now has 6, Norway has 7 and Denmark 3 provinces. So Denmark will get one more - Halland. They can be strengthen by making the provinces richer. And they will have an easy time taking Hedeby from the Swedes, and Sudr-Jylland should be a rich province.

[Ranika]

That would work (a Celtic peasant), and save space. While not as common, some Irish kerns DID use knives (particularly in Munster, where there was more iron to go around for the knives). I'm assuming the Dublin-York vikings possess Leinster? The map isn't showing up for me. What are the British and Irish provinces? Also, the Welsh would utilize more...peasant-like peasants, unarmed or poorly armed peasant throngs, and should just have 'regular' peasants. In such a case, the Irish/Scots should have 'Gaelic Peasants', I think.

Total, there can be around 200 provinces, so a pretty complex map can be made, I believe, compared to the original Rome's map, which had a bit overm 100 provinces?

[King Yngvar]

The reason the map did not show up is that I edited it, I realised that Sweden needed control of Hedeby. I wish the Irish to hold Munster, Connaght and Ulster/Ui Neill. If 200 provinces can be made, great. But of course we need to make them all and if one guy alone is going to make them it will take alot of work. But if we get more people on board, sure we can do 200 provinces

[King Yngvar]

~Britannia~
England: Wessex, Cornwall and Midlands

Dublin-York: Dublin, Northumberland and East Anglia

Ireland: Munster, Connaght and Ulster

Wales: Dyfed and Gwynedd(name?)

Scotland: Lowlands, Highlands and The Grampians


~Scandinavia~
Norway: Viken, Agdir, Oppland, Hordaland, Trønderlag, Hålogaland and Orkney

Sweden: Svitjod, Gautaland, Vermland, Uppland, Gotland and Sudr-Jylland

Denmark: Sjælland, Skåne, Halland and Nord-Jylland

Rebel provinces in Scandinavia: Jamtland and Norrland


~Germania~
German Kingdom: Saxland, Frisland, Lotharingia, Franconia, Thuringia, Swabia, Bavaria and Carinthia

Vendland: Vendland and Veletia

Rebel provinces near Germany: Moravia, Sorbland and Ostmark


~Gallia~
Frankish Kingdom
East-Francia, West-Francia, Flanders, Burgundy, West-Aquitaine, East-Aquitaine, Toulouse, Gothia and County of Barcelona (in Iberia)

Normandy
Normandie and East-Britanny

Rebel provinces in France: Britanny, Upper Burgundy and Lower Burgundy


~Iberia~
Asturia: Asturias and Galicia

Cordoba: Toledo, Lusitania, Granada, Cordoba, Valencia and Zaragosa

Rebel provinces in Iberia: Pamplona


~Italia~
Italy: Savoy, Lombardy, Venetia, Tuscany and Spoleto

Papacy: Papal State (Roma)

Rebel provinces in Italia: Benevento


~Balkans~
Bulgaria:

Magyars:
NEED PROVINCE NAMES

Except,

Rebel Provinces in Balkans: Dalmatia, Croatia and Rashka


~Balticum~
Finnish Tribes: Finland, Kainu, Häme, Bjarmaland and Karjala

Rebel provinces in Balticum: Estland, Livland and Lithuania


~Russia~
Gardariki: Holmgard, Aldgjuborg, Jordlav, Polotsk, Gnezdovo, Kijev/Kjönugard and Khazar March

Khazar Khanate: Crimea, Chersonia, Western-Khazaria, Eastern-Khazaria and Avaria

Rebel Provinces: Armenia, Georgia, Pechnegia, Volga Bulgharia, Murom, Mordivia, Northern Lands(eh, can't find name on that last one)


~Byzantia~
Byzantine Empire:
(in Italy) Thane of Sicily, Longibardia
(in Greece) Peloponese, Hellas, Macedonia, Nicopolis, Thrace and Crete
(in Asia Minor) Optimaton, Thracesia, Anatolia, Seleucia, Trebizbond, Chaldea and Kypros


~The Caliphate~
Abbasid Caliphate: NEED NAMES HERE

~North Africa~
Fatimid Caliphate: Tunisia, South Sicilia, North Sicilia, Libya, Cyrenaica (need names on the far western one and the inland eastern one)

Rebel provinces in North Africa: Tangiers and Sahara


~Mediterraneum~
Rebel provinces in Mediterraneum: Balearic Isles and Sardinia


~Poland and surroundings~
Poland:

Rebel provinces near Poland:

NEED NAMES HERE

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More province names coming up later. (City names not included, some of these province names are actually city names. Suggestions are welcomed.)

[Ranika]

Those all sound good to me, except Ui Neill was actually only part of Ulster, the name of Ulster, in Irish, is Ulaid. Ui Neill is a tribal sub-kingdom that controlled Ulster, and for a long time, the line of the high kings was drawn from them. However, Brian, who was a Dal Cais, moved the capitol from Tara to his citadel at Cashel in north Munster, and the line of the kings changed significantly.

[King Yngvar]

Tara was the seat of the high-kings right? Read something interresting a while ago, the first Nordic king that controlled Dublin, Thorgest, is supposed to have captured Tara and declared himself high-king. He was killed in Ulster and thrown into a lake.

[Ranika]

It was the seat of high kings until 986 AD, when Cashel in Munster became the new seat, until 1093 AD, when the seat was restored at Tara, but only until 1097, when it was moved to Armagh briefly, and then back to Cashel in 1102 AD.

Tara was the more steady seat of the high kings before the 900s, when the only time it moved was to Armagh for about 30 years, somewhere within 530-580, probably around 540-570 AD.

In 1174 AD, it was moved again, BACK to Tara, where it'd remain, though the following year, Henry II of England would call himself Lord of Ireland (which was ignored, largely, by the western counties, and southernmost counties of Leinster).

Edit; In 986, forgot to mention, Brian was not yet actually high king, when he 'moved' the capitol from Tara to Cashel, as he was not technically king of Ireland, he was the kingdom of Munster and Connacht, and DECLARED he was king of Ireland, but there was still resistance from the Ulstermen. Brian would not officially be high king until 1002, after he takes the crown of Ulster, and unites Ireland except for Dublin and the northern counties of Leinster (but the southern Laigin tribes had sworn fealty to Brian, but would betray him at Clontarf in 1014). After the battle of Clontarf, which Brian died in, his former rival, the former king of Ulster, was already appointed to sucede Brian. Máel Sechnaill macDomnaill O'Néill, retook the throne of Ulster, and was high king of a truly united Ireland. He kept the technical seat at Cashel out of respect for Brian, and it remained there until Domnall macArdgar O'Lochlainn O'Néill became king in 1090, where he began the process of moving the seat back to Tara, accomplished in 1093, then to Armagh in 1097, but then back to Cashel in 1102, because of a request from one of his cousins who was descended from Brian. In 1174, it was returned to Tara by high king Ruaidrí macToirrdelbaig, in a deal with Henry II of England, who then declared himself lord of Ireland. Here, the line of high kings effectively ends, at Tara, later high kings established themselves away from Tara, in fear of a capture by English. The only Irish high king after Ruadri to have his capitol at Tara was Brian Catha an Duin, as English power had wained in Ireland when he came to power. There was a Scottish-born high king, Edward de Bruce, who would establish himself there, as well, but after the debacle with Henry II, the state of the high kingship, and the seat of power, was generally at whatever fortress or citadel the current high king would set up for himself.


If you can get enough of a team together, maybe see if you can get this hosted, as I'd really like to see this mod done, and having it hosted would probably attract more people willing to work on it. I'm busy a bit with Europa Barborum, but would really do what I can to help here. Trying to find some decent pictures online, but every I can find are only MEDIEVAL Irish, and they looked different (such as, by then, Kern meant any basic soldier, so pictures of medieval Kerns show Irish light infantry, who used a lochaber axe, not the dark age peasant levies).

[King Yngvar]

If you can get enough of a team together, maybe see if you can get this hosted, as I'd really like to see this mod done, and having it hosted would probably attract more people willing to work on it. I'm busy a bit with Europa Barborum, but would really do what I can to help here. Trying to find some decent pictures online, but every I can find are only MEDIEVAL Irish, and they looked different (such as, by then, Kern meant any basic soldier, so pictures of medieval Kerns show Irish light infantry, who used a lochaber axe, not the dark age peasant levies).

Would probably attract more people yes. And it would be more organized with more topics on the different fields. I guess we have some people now, from the totalrome forums and here. Campaign map makers, pherhaps a couple of possible unit skinners and historical info peoples. Who do you think I shall ask for some hosting space, someone here in totalwar.org?

[Ranika]

Possibly, I'm not totally sure how to go about it. I would look at getting it hosted here though, but I like the forum organization, and the org does get a good number of really talented individuals through it.

[wilpuri]

The idea with those green provinces in Finland, you might be wondering about them. But I tought that the load of rebel provinces in the east would make it simple for the Swedes and Kijevans, so adding a competitor in the Baltic region would be nice. It is not necessary, just another idea...

I would very humbly like to suggest adding a few Finnic and baltic tribes to the baltic and Finland. All of the research (which took me a long time and lots of work) would be ready. Here is a summary of my research and how it would be implemented into FotN: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=642 .
Feel free to use any of the info there.