Viking Age: Total War!

[Meneldil]

Are you sure all those Flags are historically accurate ?

[Ranika]

It seems Maohr, 'ao', is the old Irish æ, and pronounced the same way, so it is a phonetic spelling of what then would seem to be Mærr. Hope that helps with what to call Huskarl Archers, maybe.

Good symbols, I was actually trying to think of an alternative St. Andrew's Cross for the Scots, as it would've been rather dull (just white on blue), and the Scots did use a number of other, more vibrant banners. The Dublin-York one looks fine to me as well, it will, at the least, look distinct apart from the others. What are the plans for the other flags?

As for historical accuracy of flags, during the period, many flags were used much of the time, and some, like St. Andrew's Cross, are rather boring. The Scots had other, more interesting flags. St. Andrew's Cross is simply the most recognized, as it remained in use, while others fell into disuse.

[King Yngvar]

I was actually thinking to use the St. Andrews cross but believed it was not that old and unhistorical for the early medieval. The St. Andrew cross would be perfect if it is historical

(Byzantine Empire - made by me)

Yes I know this one has the "purpur purple" and the real one usually had blue. But there are enough blue factions alright(!)

[Ranika]

St. Andrew's Cross was the mark of the Scottish crown since 893, I believe, so it would be historical, but Scottish armies marched under several banners, and the 'King's Mark' was actually a rearing lion on a shield.

Edit;

The King's Mark, in 911, is a red, rearing lion, with a red barbed border, on a yellow field. The shield is later. St. Andrew's Cross was present before 1000, but wasn't used on a flag beforehand, my mistake. It was a wax seal, and it appear on some nobility's clothing, but was not a flag yet.

[Ranika]

Oh, and please, PLEASE don't use the flag of Leinster for Ireland. I know you don't want another blue flag, but there are three other flags aside from Leinster and the flag of Ireland, and they all look far different. I recommend the flag of Munster (since Brian, the first real king of Ireland, was from Munster). However, some variants of that are pretty blue heavy. Maybe use the flag of Ulster, red and yellow, that one. But not the flag of Leinster, there's simply no concievable reason why a Gaelic Irish nation at this point would use it, considering the flag of Leinster was flown by the Irish who supported the vikings in Dublin, not by any of the Gaelic Irish kingdoms seeking a united, Gael Ireland.

To note, the modern flag of Ulster is not the old flag, though it looks similar. The Anglo-Irish flag was white, with a crown over the hand. However, the original is identical to the modern flag, except it has a silver cross in the center of the hand. All I can find are the medieval and modern flags though.

The flag of Munster today is 3 gold crowns on a blue field, but it was originally a single gold crown in the center of a blue field, adopted about 908 (changed from the Screighan symbol). This would be the first 'flag of Ireland', since it was Brian's flag when he first claimed kingship. However, Ireland was recognized by the harp on a blue or white field (the white field could be an alternative then, since there is so much blue).

The flag of Connacht was white with three red bars, vertical, in the upper left corner, and four blue bars in the lower right corner. (Today's is DRASTICALLY different).

[King Yngvar]

Pherhaps we could take this one up for a vote when we get our own forums, I have not decided on what to use anyway. Munster and Connaght is probably out of deal as they are blue. So it would be a competition between Ulster and Leinster.

Ulster:


Munster:


Leinster:


Connaght:

[Ranika]

None of those are period except Leinster's, but Ulster's is closest to period (just needs a silver cross in the palm).

However, there is an Irish flag that is simply a white field with a silver harp upon it. It is the Holy Mark, and was often flown by Irish kings, as an alternative to the blue-with-gold harp. And I've been searching for a better flag for Scotland, using the original King's Mark (since I misunderstood the adoption of St. Andrew's Cross as meaning it was used as a king's seal, not as his banner yet). The closest to period I can find is the first version of the 'Scottish Governmental' flag. It looks similar to this flag, except the border is a solid red, not two bars.

Connaght's flag would be entirely different, that flag there is a late medieval one that meant to represent piece between Brits and Gaels in Ireland.

Edit;

I have an early Holy Mark flag of Ireland, used by both the kings of Munster and Ulster. The early version is the silver harp on a pale yellow field, I've tried to recreate it as best I can, but not sure how to upload an image on my computer to the board. However, I think this should be agreeable. No blue, and it's not the overused flag of Leinster, and, it would be period.

[Duke Malcolm]

For Scots, I would have thought the Royal Lion Rampant, without the border, would be right.

[Ranika]

Actually, without any border, may be. It seems the red border is a banner, but only for the old Scottish Moarmor, and the personal guards of the king. But the banner of the king himself LACKED the border (the red border was meant to represent the blood the guards would shed for the king).

[King Yngvar]

I have an early Holy Mark flag of Ireland, used by both the kings of Munster and Ulster. The early version is the silver harp on a pale yellow field, I've tried to recreate it as best I can, but not sure how to upload an image on my computer to the board. However, I think this should be agreeable. No blue, and it's not the overused flag of Leinster, and, it would be period.

For Scots, I would have thought the Royal Lion Rampant, without the border, would be right.

Oh well the flags are easy to make and that can probably be handled by myself. I need some 3d skinners though, did not seem like Martinius answered on my PM...

[The_Doctor]

"Oh well the flags are easy to make and that can probably be handled by myself. I need some 3d skinners though, did not seem like Martinius answered on my PM..."

I found out you PMed me a few minutes ago. Then I came here.

I will help you with your mod, but first I need to get a shower and read the last few pages of this thread.

[BalkanTourist]

"Special attention should be paid to the military organization of the Bulgarians. The army consisted of all physically strong and battle-fit men but, in critical times, young women were also known to have been recruited. It may be from those days that we have inherited the currently popular view that he who has not done his military service is no real man. Stringent customary rules turned later into a law, stipulated the rights and obligations of the military men and, in many respects, that law is very close to contemporary army statutes. The troops were mainly horse-mounted. Besides the light cavalry which was customary with the peoples in the steppes, the Bulgarians had contingents of heavily-armed soldiers with both men and horses covered in chainarmour made iron or felt. A blow delivered by the heavily armed cavalry (in khan Krum times at the beginning of the 9th century it was about 30 000-strong) could be compared with the effect of the blow a contemporary tank army would have on lightly-armed infantry divisions. In fact, the repeated Bulgarian victories over Byzantium were mainly due to the blows struck by the heavy cavalry. The Byzantine army had never had more than 400 heavily-armed warriors on horseback.

The armaments of the Bulgarians consisted of swords, battle axes, knives and javelins for the heavy cavalry, and lances for the light cavalry, as well as of heavy bows and arrows. "
http://www.bulgaria.com/history/bulgaria/live.html

[The_Doctor]

At last I can call myself a modder

I have started to make a skin for a huscarl unit. Right now I am working on the armour. I will show it a bit later today.

[DemonArchangel]

"Special attention should be paid to the military organization of the Bulgarians. The army consisted of all physically strong and battle-fit men but, in critical times, young women were also known to have been recruited. It may be from those days that we have inherited the currently popular view that he who has not done his military service is no real man. Stringent customary rules turned later into a law, stipulated the rights and obligations of the military men and, in many respects, that law is very close to contemporary army statutes. The troops were mainly horse-mounted. Besides the light cavalry which was customary with the peoples in the steppes, the Bulgarians had contingents of heavily-armed soldiers with both men and horses covered in chainarmour made iron or felt. A blow delivered by the heavily armed cavalry (in khan Krum times at the beginning of the 9th century it was about 30 000-strong) could be compared with the effect of the blow a contemporary tank army would have on lightly-armed infantry divisions. In fact, the repeated Bulgarian victories over Byzantium were mainly due to the blows struck by the heavy cavalry. The Byzantine army had never had more than 400 heavily-armed warriors on horseback.

The armaments of the Bulgarians consisted of swords, battle axes, knives and javelins for the heavy cavalry, and lances for the light cavalry, as well as of heavy bows and arrows. "
http://www.bulgaria.com/history/bulgaria/live.html

400? that's a typo or crock of shit.

[The_Doctor]

I have got a screenshot of the huscarls, but I do not know how to post it.

[King Yngvar]

I was gone the whole weekend, if someone wonder why I did not answer...

I found out you PMed me a few minutes ago. Then I came here.

I will help you with your mod, but first I need to get a shower and read the last few pages of this thread.

Good to have you with us then

"Special attention should be paid to the military organization of the Bulgarians. The army consisted of all physically strong and battle-fit men but, in critical times, young women were also known to have been recruited. It may be from those days that we have inherited the currently popular view that he who has not done his military service is no real man. Stringent customary rules turned later into a law, stipulated the rights and obligations of the military men and, in many respects, that law is very close to contemporary army statutes. The troops were mainly horse-mounted. Besides the light cavalry which was customary with the peoples in the steppes, the Bulgarians had contingents of heavily-armed soldiers with both men and horses covered in chainarmour made iron or felt. A blow delivered by the heavily armed cavalry (in khan Krum times at the beginning of the 9th century it was about 30 000-strong) could be compared with the effect of the blow a contemporary tank army would have on lightly-armed infantry divisions. In fact, the repeated Bulgarian victories over Byzantium were mainly due to the blows struck by the heavy cavalry. The Byzantine army had never had more than 400 heavily-armed warriors on horseback.

The armaments of the Bulgarians consisted of swords, battle axes, knives and javelins for the heavy cavalry, and lances for the light cavalry, as well as of heavy bows and arrows. "

Thank you for the information, though I do believe the Byzantines had a little more than 400 men in the cavalry, pherhaps the heaviest cavalry, I'm not sure...

I have got a screenshot of the huscarls, but I do not know how to post it.

Send it to me on: yngvarv@hotmail.com
I will post it on my "photobucket" site.

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By the way, Trajan made some new flags: http://forums.totalrome.com/index.ph...&st=40&p=5161&, please feel free to comment.

[The_Doctor]

King Yngvar, your over your storaage limit on hotmail, so I can't send the screenshot to you

[Meneldil]

The new banners are quite nice :)

[Ranika]

Great looking new banners, I especially love the Papacy's banner, looks really well done.

I've been searching for pictures of dark age Irish/Scots (they dressed the same and had the same manner of hygiene/hair styles/etc. for quite a long time), but all I can find are high medieval-renaissance, and there were many drastic changes in appearance.

[King Yngvar]

I have only used 22% of 2 MB

It's enough, for a jpg pic at least. Make it into JPG before sending...

I've been searching for pictures of dark age Irish/Scots (they dressed the same and had the same manner of hygiene/hair styles/etc. for quite a long time), but all I can find are high medieval-renaissance, and there were many drastic changes in appearance.

Is the High-Medieval style totally unusable for the 900's?

[JANOSIK007]

So I decided for a starting age, at first that starting age will be 911 as it is more interresting and with more options than 793. Just another thing that proves this is not the same as Viking Invasion. Well, mostly I decided this because of Normandy and the Magyars, as they will now be included.



Only the provinces of the north have been lined up there, the rest of Europe is just bordered by factions for now.

Factions:

Norway
Sweden
Denmark
Wessex (or England)
Dublin-York (yes I know they were not united until 919, but no need to include them both)
Scotland (or Alba, just think Scotland sounds better)
Ireland (or Eire)
Wales (or use one of the names of a Welsh principality, f.ex Gwynedd or Dyfedd?. Yes, just one province, but we want them in don't we?)
Kingdom of Vendland (those two provinces east of Denmark if you wondered, Slavic people)
Normandy
Frankish Kingdom (or West-Frankish Kingdom)
German Kingdom (or East-Frankish Kingdom)
Cordoba
Asturia
Italy (yes there were actually a kingdom called Italy from the late 800's till mid 900's)
Papacy (the Catholic "senate")
Poland
Magyars (or Hungary)
Kijev/Novgorod/Konugard/Holmgard (still not sure which name to use)
Bulgar Khanate
Khazar Khanate
Byzantine Empire (or Romanoi Empire/Eastern-Roman Empire?)
Fatimid Kaliphate (started out in Algeria in 901, rapidly expanded westwards, took Egypt later on)
Abbasid Kaliphate (the original Kaliphate, the Fatimids challenged them for the title of Kalif)

I have a strong suggestion for you to include Great Moravian Empire. If the game is going to be about Dark Ages then they must be in. They were an important European Ally of Byzantines against Bulgars and Franks. They even managed to snatch some territorial posessions from both of them. Morava was important for the history of Central Europe and I think they justly belong there (in place of Magyars). Their territories included: present day Czech rep., Slovakia, Lusatia-Silesia (present day SE Germany and S Poland), Panonia, and parts of Germany, Austria, even into Romania. From the East it bordered with Kievan Rus (separated by few tribes), similar to what you drew on the map. So it was a moajor contender for power in Central Europe and that's why Franks invited Magyars on them (which became a problem for them as well). Speaking of which, Magyars weren't as centralized and were located further East (I'd say aroun Crimea) pressured by Pechenegs.

If I can ask you, what are those grey territories to the east of Germany up in th north around the river Elbe. Historically all lands East of Elbe belonged to Slavs. Only in medieval HRE began expanding east and assimilating Slavs there.

[Ranika]

Is the High-Medieval style totally unusable for the 900's?

Yes, with the exception of clothing in Ireland (but not Scotland, it had changed there), weapons, armor, and troop types from the 900s, had completely changed by the high-medieval period. The word 'kern' meant a semi-professional soldier by this point, so whenever you see a medieval kern, he has a lochaber axe, maybe some padded or leather armor, etc. However, in the 900s, a kern was just a peasant, and not at all professional. The Irish shifted gears a good deal, they had more cavalry, still used hobilars, but they dressed differently (inspired by Norman clothing and armor), many of their soldiers simply aren't mentioned or used. The only usable images you'd find are probably going to be gallowglass, because this was the period when they came into use. It's a severe pain, but I think I may be able to find at least a few things, but it may take me a little. I'll have some good, accurate depictions soon, I hope.

[Meneldil]

'Good' news guys, the problem I was having with the extended map is not related to the modification. I just re-installed RTW, and the original map is bugged aswell. I'll start working on it seriously tomorrow.

[King Yngvar]

I have a strong suggestion for you to include Great Moravian Empire.

Will be concidered, it would be located in the rebel provinces between Germans, Magyars and Poles then? If you help us make them that would be nice. I for one have no knowledge about Moravia except where they were...

Speaking of which, Magyars weren't as centralized and were located further East (I'd say aroun Crimea) pressured by Pechenegs.

I checked it in several sources, Magyars were located in Hungary by 911. They had been so for over a decade...

If I can ask you, what are those grey territories to the east of Germany up in th north around the river Elbe.

Vendland, a slavic tribe. Used to be alot of wars between them and the Scandinavians...

'Good' news guys, the problem I was having with the extended map is not related to the modification. I just re-installed RTW, and the original map is bugged aswell. I'll start working on it seriously tomorrow.

I found that out myself, playing a campaign as Scythia I had problems getting to the Amazon city as the "corner bug" came to me all the time...

It's a severe pain, but I think I may be able to find at least a few things, but it may take me a little. I'll have some good, accurate depictions soon, I hope.

That sounds nice if you could find some, thank you.

[Ranika]

I may end up having to scan some stuff myself, but don't know how to post it on the forum. I'll procure some stuff though, and share it as soon as possible though.

[JANOSIK007]

I checked it in several sources, Magyars were located in Hungary by 911. They had been so for over a decade...

That is true, but I thought you would like Dark Ages which begin sooner. But if you want to make it about vikings that's fine. Although it is called Viking Age, I though it could be a more overarching Dark Age, spaning much larger window in time than Vking raids. If you would ever choose a Dark Age than it could be divided into three stages: first, much of Europe Decentralized- Franks and Byzantines would be two major powers as well as the Caliphate and Slavic tribes begin to band into larger confederations and lastly Avars as the biggest power in central Europe; second; forming of ditinct Slavic principalities and kingdoms (Morava, Kiev, 'Bulgaria'), break up of Franks, Avars wiped out, Byzantines under pressure from Bulgars-seek alliance with Morava; Third, Viking raids, destruction of Moravia by Magyars, Bohemia rises out of its ashes, Magyars established as a central European power, Poland established, last Turkish invasion from the east by Pechenegs (around Crimea), Bulgarian frist Empire falters (under pressure from Magyars who reduce their territories north of Danube and Byzantines until its eventual colapse in late 900s/early 1000s), Byzantines make considarable territirial conquests, HRE established. That's preety much it for Cetnral Europe.

Of course if you choose to cover only the latter stage aka Viking raids than Magyars are there instead of portions of Moravia.

I can help you with certain historical facts, especially in Central Europe. Im not much of use in modding department.

[King Yngvar]

I may end up having to scan some stuff myself, but don't know how to post it on the forum. I'll procure some stuff though, and share it as soon as possible though.

My email is yngvarv@hotmail.com, I can post up pics...

That is true, but I thought you would like Dark Ages which begin sooner. But if you want to make it about vikings that's fine. Although it is called Viking Age, I though it could be a more overarching Dark Age, spaning much larger window in time than Vking raids. If you would ever choose a Dark Age than it could be divided into three stages: first, much of Europe Decentralized- Franks and Byzantines would be two major powers as well as the Caliphate and Slavic tribes begin to band into larger confederations and lastly Avars as the biggest power in central Europe; second; forming of ditinct Slavic principalities and kingdoms (Morava, Kiev, 'Bulgaria'), break up of Franks, Avars wiped out, Byzantines under pressure from Bulgars-seek alliance with Morava; Third, Viking raids, destruction of Moravia by Magyars, Bohemia rises out of its ashes, Magyars established as a central European power, Poland established, last Turkish invasion from the east by Pechenegs (around Crimea), Bulgarian frist Empire falters (under pressure from Magyars who reduce their territories north of Danube and Byzantines until its eventual colapse in late 900s/early 1000s), Byzantines make considarable territirial conquests, HRE established. That's preety much it for Cetnral Europe.

Of course if you choose to cover only the latter stage aka Viking raids than Magyars are there instead of portions of Moravia.

I can help you with certain historical facts, especially in Central Europe. Im not much of use in modding department.

It's a matter of work, making three periods would take much more work. Pherhaps for an "expansion" after the mod is done, we could do an earlier starting age. This starting age however is set to 911, after the founding of Normandy by Gangr-Hrolf (Rollo). This is the middle of the Viking Age, after the establishment of Scandinavian kingdoms abroad. These are seen in Gardariki, Normandy and Dublin-York.

But if you know stuff from this period as well it would be nice with some historical help from you on Central Europe

[JANOSIK007]

But if you know stuff from this period as well it would be nice with some historical help from you on Central Europe [/QUOTE]

Sure. Although I hate Hungars for 1000 years of opression I will give the most accurate info on how the established themselves as a Central European power. Of course I will give you the appropriate info abot others as well.

I am reading right now 'Historical Atlas of Central Europe' by PR Magocsi. It has the best compilation of maps that I have seen for this region. This book rules.

[The_Doctor]

King Yngvar, I am going to be testing Duke John sengoku jadia mod. But I will continue to help you on this mod.

The website in your email is full of poetry and the British royal family.

[Paul Peru]

I hate Hungars for 1000 years of opression

Gods, you're old!
Sorry, I'm off topic, but hating someone for something someones forefathers did to your forefathers is not the way to bring the world forward, IMNSHO.