Research: the best foot unit

[TinCow]

I have recently acquired Chosen Archer Warbands in large numbers in my Dacian campaign... and I am amazed at how good these things are. After examining their stats in more detail, I am wondering if perhaps they are the best foot unit in the game. They are probably the best foot archers out there (Long Range and a higher missile attack than even Creshian Archers) and their ability to actually engage in melee is massive.

10 Attack / 11 Defense / 5 Charge / 12 Missile

Compare this to:
Hastati - 7 Attack / 14 Defense / 2 Charge / 11 Missile
Principes - 7 Attack / 16 Defense / 2 Charge / 11 Missile
Triarii - 7 Attack / 17 Defense / 7 Charge
Early Legionary Cohort - 9 Attack / 17 Defense / 4 Charge / 13 Missile
Legionary Cohort - 9 Attack / 22 Defense / 4 Charge / 13 Missile

While all of these units have a higher defense, they will take significant casualties from the long-range Chosen Archer missiles well before they reach melee. Add to that the higher attack and charge than ALL of them (except Triarii charge) and Chosen Archers will kill faster as well. This doesn't even take into account the bonus for woods and snow (probably applied in a good 2/3 - 3/4 of the battles fought in Europe). Praetorian and Urban Cohorts have a high enough attack to probably beat them, but both of these units take two turns to produce.

So... essentially we have the best archer unit in the game which can also beat everything but the most elite Roman (and Greek) foot units in melee combat. Is there another unit that could possibly be more useful?

[edit]
Just noticed Pharoah's Bowmen, which beat Chosen Archers on Missile and Defense. However, they are weaker on attack and charge, they take two turns to train and their maintinance fee is almost twice as high. That raises another benefit of Chosen Archers, a relatively low upkeep fee. They essentially cost the same as Auxilia and Hastatii and are far cheaper than even the basic Early Legionary Cohort, let alone the very expensive elite units of the other factions.

[Slaists]

Well, there is one note on engaging missile types in melee: after shooting for a while they become quite tired. Being tired lowers their attack and defense considerably.

[Quillan]

Tin, check out the Gallic Forester Warband. They're even better. I'm not at home to doublecheck, but if I remember correctly, base stats are something like 11 melee, 7 charge, 15 missile, 3 armor, 5 defense skill, long range missiles, hide anywhere, excellent morale, all the usual archer stuff (flaming arrows, can sap, etc), and they don't suffer from the "may charge without orders" bit almost all barbarian units have.

[Zorlag]

Well, there is one note on engaging missile types in melee: after shooting for a while they become quite tired. Being tired lowers their attack and defense considerably.

That's true, but they will also have numerical advantage since they already peppered their enemies with multiple volleys of arrows (which are damn powerful too)... I think these units are pretty much ultimate all-arounders, only thing they miss is shield. Forester warbands are still better archers though.

Z.

[RZST]

lol, damnit thats why archers were getting pwnd XD. bastards

[TinCow]

Alright, so let's figure this out. Which 'melee foot archer' unit is the best? The three main candidates seem to be:

Chosen Archer Warband - Cost: 700/180 - 1 Turn Production
10 Attack / 11 Defense / 5 Charge / 12 Missile
Expert in Woods, Bonus in Woods & Snow, Good Morale, Good Stamina

Forester Warband - Cost: 960/200 - 2 Turn Production
11 Attack / 8 Defense / 8 Charge / 15 Missile
Hides Anywhere, Bonus in Woods & Snow, Excellent Morale, Good Stamina, Fast

Pharaoh's Bowmen - Cost: 680/330 - 2 Turn Production
9 Attack / 13 Defense / 4 Charge / 14 Missile
Bonus in Desert, Good Morale, Good Stamina, Can Sap

Forester Warband seems to be the winner on stats, but it has an increased cost and 2 turn production over the Chosen Archers. In addition, the Chosen Archers' extra defense might give them the edge in a ranged dual. So... opinions?

[Szun]

just to clear some things..defense is not adding to ranged defense..only shield and armour protects from missles, the defense value is only used in melee.
Beside the pure stats maybe you also count in the unitsizes..afaik the pharaos are 60/120/240 scaled while thje forester are 40/80/160..if i am correct remembering.

[Red Harvest]

Right now, "Good Stamina" means they all tire MORE rapidly...BUG.

One turn production for chosen archer warbands is probably the key factor. You can build far more of them... Otherwise I would pick the Forresters on stats + upkeep (I can keep more around than the Eggy unit.) If you need a unit with armour though to exchange missile volleys, the Eggy's get the nod.

[Oleander Ardens]

All three are incredibly good units which are kinda different:

The Forester is a fast-high attack archer while the Pharaoh's is a slower and better at taking hits, with the Chosen somewhat a mix between them with a weaker ranged attack.

Both the Forester and the Chosen can approfit of the +3 experience or +3 weapon bonus, while I'm not sure what the egyptian temples offer the Pharaoh's...

OA

[TinCow]

just to clear some things..defense is not adding to ranged defense..only shield and armour protects from missles, the defense value is only used in melee.
Beside the pure stats maybe you also count in the unitsizes..afaik the pharaos are 60/120/240 scaled while thje forester are 40/80/160..if i am correct remembering.

Any idea what the armor stats are on these guys? If appearances are anything to go by, the Foresters will be lower on it than the Chosen.

According to the Unit Guide, they all have the same number of men, that's why I didn't include that.

Why not have Cretan archers in here also?

Cretan Archers aren't built for melee at all and their missile attack is lower than all three of the ones I listed. Cretan Archers are pretty much just vanilla archers with perks. For reference purposes though:

Cretan Archers - Cost: 550/200
6 Attack / 5 Defense / 3 Charge / 11 Missile
Bonus in Woods, Vulnerable to Missiles, Good Stamina, Fast, Can Sap

[Praylak]

Forester Warband seems to be the winner on stats, but it has an increased cost and 2 turn production over the Chosen Archers. In addition, the Chosen Archers' extra defense might give them the edge in a ranged dual. So... opinions?

I'll take the forester anyday. Had a few encounters with them, but I havent; used them as Gaul yet. I play on Medium difficulty, large unit size and here was my experience...

When I was playing Germania, I had two Chosen archers that approached a single unit of Forester for a typcial archer duel. It was level ground and good weather. There is no question in my mind that had it been one on one, the Foresters would have taken the day. Since my Chosen's were the ones approaching, the foresters did get off the first volley that initally killed 12 guys! Best first volley I ever seen. The Foresters did terrible casulties to my Chosens. Both my units were down to half strength by the time the last Forester fell. Even with the better armour, the higher missle attack of the Forester is deadly.

[Silver Rusher]

Alright, so let's figure this out. Which 'melee foot archer' unit is the best? The three main candidates seem to be:

Chosen Archer Warband - Cost: 700/180 - 1 Turn Production
10 Attack / 11 Defense / 5 Charge / 12 Missile
Expert in Woods, Bonus in Woods & Snow, Good Morale, Good Stamina

Forester Warband - Cost: 960/200 - 2 Turn Production
11 Attack / 8 Defense / 8 Charge / 15 Missile
Hides Anywhere, Bonus in Woods & Snow, Excellent Morale, Good Stamina, Fast

Pharaoh's Bowmen - Cost: 680/330 - 2 Turn Production
9 Attack / 13 Defense / 4 Charge / 14 Missile
Bonus in Desert, Good Morale, Good Stamina, Can Sap

Forester Warband seems to be the winner on stats, but it has an increased cost and 2 turn production over the Chosen Archers. In addition, the Chosen Archers' extra defense might give them the edge in a ranged dual. So... opinions?

Why not have Cretan archers in here also?

[therother]

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[Legend5000]

Now, I like archers. I even love archers. But they aren't invulnerable. One of the reasons that they work so well against the AI is because it usually creates mediocre units (you don't fight Chosen Archer Warbands with Axemen) and because, well, the AI's an idiot (Once, it tried to send Bowmen across a river and killed them all, leaving the enemy phalanxes pincushions for my Bedouin Archers).

But as I said, archers aren't invulnerable, even elite units such as Chosen Archers and Forresters. Elite cavalry such as Cataphracts or Preatorian Cavalry can rip them apart in a single charge. And even if they survive the first charge, their morale usually plummets and they rout, making them perfect targets for cavalry. Even horse archers, especially Cataphract Archers, can use Cantabrian Circle to kill Chosen Archers with relatively few losses.

Also, although elite archers can fight well in hand-to-hand combat, I find it frustrating to waste them and having to retrain, losing time, money, and experience, especially with non-replenishable mercenary units such as Cretan Archers. Archers are meant to stay behind the lines and shoot at enemies while heavier units such as Chosen Swordmen do their work. When they run out of arrows, quick archers do a great job killing routing infantry. But archers should only be made to force an enemy line as a last resort.

Btw, Spartan Hoplites in loose formation will usually kill Chosen Archers, though at a steep cost.

[sunsmountain]

The Spartan Hoplites have a low defense compared to other heavy infantry. The 2 hitpoints doesnt help enough against archer fire.

I dont think the chosen archers are 2nd best in melee, the foresters are at least as good.

The thing with both of them is that you need cavalry to kill them, for the simple fact that they outrun infantry, which is quite irritating considering they're firing long range.

Archers are not the strongest unit in the game, but they're a force to be reckoned with.

[dulsin]

Pila were still mostly stopped by shields. The real advantage the Pila had was that the bronze point would pierce the shield and even if the man was not injured by the point that bronze would bend under its own weight lodging it in the shield. Now the infantry had to either take off the shield and remove it or live with an extra few pounds weighing down that shield arm.

Neither option was very atractive while more Pila are raining down on you.

[Edex]

Gameplay shows that pilas are really crashing weapon while defending. Just see what happens in defensive battle when you line your roman infantry (even hastati, no doubt about better units) on fire at will and wait for enemy infantry attacking - half of them is lost and retreated even without fight, holed by pilas