The 10 Greatest Field Generals in History.

[ShaiHulud]

Nappy was referring to having one person in CLEAR command. Divisions of authority are anathema to decision-making. Hence, he preferred one bad general in total command to two good generals sharing command.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[BakaGaijin]

This thread is more interesting than the other one (a thinly-veiled *bump*).

[Shuko]

Quote Originally posted by Zen_Blade:
Ok,

now, I don't know the difference between field general, etc...
But, good generals to me.... (taking into account the change in warfare over the centuries...) I will attempt to go from old to new. btw, I will also only have down names I know...

Ground:

Alexander
Mongols (horse tactics and psychological warfare were unique, not sure who to attribute it to though)
Napoleon (and Davout)--revolutionize warfare in the west
Lee (not Grant b/c he was more of a blood and guts guy... willing to sacrifice more men to win a war... not much of a tactic in my opinion)
Rommel, Zhukov, Patton (WWII ppl, don't know enough about the other names that you mentioned)--however, Zhukov really did a lot for Russia. Originally on the East front, but then went Western on Hitler's ass.. hehe

Sea:
Nelson
Yamamoto (NOT given enough credit in the West, brilliant strategist and understood warfare better than any of the Japanese... that's why he was AGAINST war with the US) Only reason he lost Midway was due to Japanese mass error and US hardwork... oh, and lots of luck. I did a report on Midway, oi!


A rather short list, mainly full of ppl whom I know. Perhaps everyone would be willing to enlighten me with regards to what their choices did?

-Zen Blade

[/QUOTE]


re: Marshal Georgi Zhukov
Actually his effort in the East against the Japanese was ordinary, he won but lost heaps of men etc. Obviously his best effort was at the gates of Moscow where he took command and pushed the Germans back.

Still thinking of my top ten generals/admirals.

[Anjin-san]

Well, about Yammamoto. I think HE screwed up at Midway. It was his fault the he had his carrier forces spread to four different task groups. Midway force, Kaga, Kaiga, Hiryu Soryu, along with the ones at the Alutians, Kondos' invasion force and some with him. He could have overwhelmed us, but he tried to play cutsy and divide his forces. BIG MISTAKE

[The Black Ship]

I think you're right Anjin...a feint to the Aleutians? Preposterous to believe he'd think we'd fall for it. I've been there...he can have it

My list would include Gaius Marius...is for no other reason than his Marius mules concept. Think about the tremendous expansion that occurred after the man-power constraints were lifted.

[vangersonm]

I Believe the greatest General off all time was and still is..........

1)General Winter - (Mother Nature)

Awsome Record ... Defeating a vast amount of Armies......Killing a Countless number of men

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If he is taking his ease, give him no rest.
If his forces are united, separate them.

Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where
you are not expected.

[MarkF]

Alott of people have the swedish King Gustavus Adolphus (Gustav II Adolf in swedish) as one of the greatest generals. But as a swede I should ad that the real man behind his victories was the general Magnus Gabriel de la Gardie.

[Zen Blade]

Anjin,

Having done reports both on Midway and Yamamoto...

I can tell you this much... the "Aleution feint" did not hurt the attack on Midway in anyway... what it did do though was hurt in the long run b/c the Americans recovered a zero fighter in near-perfect condition... this would later come to narrow the fighter gap and even reverse it.

However, as for Midway itself...

The Japanese did not fail due to "splitting up their carrier fleet".

To spare you most of the details...

1. The Americans had broken the Japanese code, the japanese did not know this.
2. The Americans managed to get 3 carriers to Midway, when noone expected to get more than two carriers.... The... Yorktown(?) had been badly damaged at Coral Sea and it was a slight miracle that the Americans got it battle worthy in something like 72 hours.
--However, even with this, the Japanese still had a 4-3 carrier advantage. As well as at least two more supporting carriers in reserve to be used once the American carriers were found and dealt with.

3. Americans got VERY lucky.

Honestly, this is one of those battles in the history of man where luck played THE most important role. The Yorktown was eventually sunk like 24 hours after this battle by a submarine, but had it not been for that sub, it would have made it back to port... even though it took two massive pounding during the battle of Midway.
--also, you have to put a lot of blame on Nagumo... He was indecisive to the extreme.

--And, one of the best admiral's Yamaguchi (a carrier commander) took over after 3 of the japanese carriers were sunk. He managed to get the Yorktown, but his carrier was also taken out... and unlike Nagumo, he went down with the ship.
--there's actually somewhat of a story about his going down with the ship. He was beloved by his men and so they decided to get one of the biggest, toughest men on the boat and basically force their commander off the ship into the escorting cruisers but Yamaguchi would have none of it... and so the big man went off-ship crying...
: (

sorry about the delayed response, did not realize I hadn't checked the thread in so long.

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity, Retired
SHS Core Member

[ShaiHulud]

MarkF....

I'm interested in what you have to say about
Gustavus, or his general....

Zen....

Yah, the loss of the Zero was significant in that it led to plane design to specifically defeat the Zero. Bad break for Japan!

On the other hand, the reserve carriers you speak of.... would that be the Japanese mini-carriers? The Hosho was with the battleship force on anti-sub duty. That force was positioned too far away to be of any use. Another was with the Atago invasion force, I think (Zuiho?)... again, too far away to support the main carriers. The Shokaku and Zuikaku were either damaged or bereft of planes/pilots from the Coral Sea battle that damaged the Yorktown, yes? The two carriers in the Aleutians were, again, too far away for support and had failed to lure the Yank carriers away from Midway.

It seems certain that luck was the major factor, even after the code breakthru. With inferior range the US carriers needed to strike before they were found by the Japanese. The failure of the two scout planes
assigned to search the area where the US carriers actually were was the most profound misfortune for the Japanese. The uncoordinated attacks by the US planes turned out to be the final break the US needed... the torpedo planes attacking first brought the Japanese cap down low and they were unable to regain height to forestall the divebomber attacks.

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O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

[MarkF]

Well I guess people see Gustavus Adolphus as a great commander because of his groundbreaking usage of cannons and his infantry tactics. But as a matter of fact it was his best friend and also the chief commander of his troops Magnus Gabriel de la Gardie came up with the tactics. It was the King who dealt out the orders but it was in de la Gardies mind they wore born...

(As an interesting fact I might ad that de la Gardie didn't go unrewarded for his duties, at his death he had about 1000 castles and manison in Sweden and Finland filled up with the riches of Germany and tjeckoslovakia.)

[theforce]

I have to say Achilles is the best. The face that he holded 3mill with 300 men is remarkable! He might have lost at the end but he gave the time to the Greeks to get ready and kick Persian's asses.
Also Alexander was a great gen.


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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.fateback.com

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

I'm surprised not to have seen Hannibal's name out there. Did he not make it to the door of Rome itself?


Anyway what an interesting thread guys

[theforce]

Yes but trying to outflank the Romans and get from the other side cost him many men both bu da cold and da barbarian tribes.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.fateback.com

[ShaiHulud]

Kumaratta.......

Hannibal did make it on 3 lists here. Most didn't post lists... perhaps they have reservations about what makes for 'greatness'.

TheForce.... Are you referring to King Leonidas and the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae?(and their several thousand Greek allies)

MarkF...

It's difficult not to credit Gustavus Adolphus for the use of those improvements.

Alexander didn't create the phalanx but he made better use than any of its power.

Napoleon didn't invent cannon but he determined that massing them could be decisive.

When WWII began France had superiority in tank numbers and quality, yet, they were soundly beaten.

The possession of technical superiority (which COULD be decisive) is far outweighed by the use of tactical innovation. Tactical innovation in conjunction with technical innovation can be credited to Gustavus. He displayed the wisdom to recognize improvements and the methods by which to apply them.
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O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

[This message has been edited by ShaiHulud (edited 08-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by ShaiHulud (edited 08-05-2001).]

[Algesan]

Napoleon is an interesting figure, but part of the problem with "evaluating" his prowess as a general depends on his subordinates. He is a transitional figure and the last "Great Captain" as opposed to armies led by general staffs. During the Hundred Days (Waterloo) campaign, his efficiency was crippled greatly by the loss of Berthier who was Napoleon's Chief of Staff (not to be confused with the modern equivalent).

Berthier's influence is debated, but he apparently had a great capacity for keeping up with the normally hyperactive Napoleon and translated his orders into writing for the various commanders and maintained the Imperial "military" household in the field. I cannot recall anything off the top of my head, but Napoleon did lament his lack for his final campaign.

For the rest of his subordinates, look up the marshalls of France from the period. Davout is getting mentioned on these lists because he was never defeated. Against him on these counts was that he had never faced Wellington (IMO, not that big a deal, but that is a long and complicated subject). However in the twin battles of Jena Auerstadt, Davout lead his corps against almost all of the Prussian army and fought it to a standstill and there are several other exploits by him and his division commanders during the wars.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

everyone who doesnt have Subutei in his first 3 names should study the extreme skills of this corpulent general.

Subutei/subudei won over 70 major battles without a loss in different countries/geographical settings against different armies. enough time outnumbered but everytime outsmarting every opponnent.

Subudei is the main man... even better than my Great Khan

::slow pace--> gallop gallop gallop::

[vangersonm]

i still say General Winter is the best!

[[Won-Ton] Atlus]

1. me
2. super man (lead thousands of battle hardened criminals strait into jail)
3. Robert E. Lee (even though he was a stuborn bast*rd)
4. Julius Caesar
5. Eisenhower (i think he was the one who planned out the normandy invasion)

George Meade was good in his own respect. The Gettysburg victory was solid, even though it might have been due to more than one fluke. i am young so i dont know too many generals and so i couldn't get 10 in.

[Kwambatake Sanjuro]

I am suprise that Frederik II "The Great" only showed up one time, he won many victory again impossible odds...

he kept at bay all France, Austria, Russia... with the force of the rather small Prussia...

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In War there is no greater honnor... other than victory

[jackfruitguy69]

jan zizka and Genghis khan = two field commanders in history that never lost a battle

[Empire*Of*Media]

im Surprised why you didnt said anything about Sun Tzu!! he was a very great general & Commander that if he be in any army in any nation, he would create victories for them!! he somehow we can call it An Artist An Artist of WAR !!

Indeed General ROMMEL was the Greatest of all generals of history of mankind after Sun Tzu.
Very Powerful Strategian and Tactician, With Beautiful Cunnings, And specially great mind, that if Hitler would give commanding of All Nazi forces instead of himself, Nazi Germany Would Take All Over The World without any doubt!


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Plus Whats your Idea About General SURENA ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surena
very little wrote on wikipedia, but indeed he was very tactician & strategian and cunning general that wiped out Advanced Roman Legions Easily !!

[ReluctantSamurai]

Does this set some sort of record for thread necromancy? 12yrs

Indeed General ROMMEL was the Greatest of all generals of history of mankind after Sun Tzu.

Rommel was, at best, a good corps commander who should never have been placed in command of an entire army group. He was the main reason the Germans got booted out of N. Africa.

His complete lack of understanding of logistics cost the DAK dearly time after time, culminating in the sheer lunacy of the DAK's invasion of Egypt; his lead-from-the-front style of generalship, while commendable, left important decisions to be made by his staff generals because noone could locate him at critical times; and he did not work very well with his underlings, especially his Italian generals.

An average general who made his claim to fame on two successful campaign's in N. Africa, and not much else.

[BroskiDerpman]

Yeah, I'm surprised that Sunzi wasn't really mentioned.

Though just like anything translated to another language it looses some of it's meaning when in another language. (There's many small sayings in every language)

[Empire*Of*Media]

Does this set some sort of record for thread necromancy? 12yrs



Rommel was, at best, a good corps commander who should never have been placed in command of an entire army group. He was the main reason the Germans got booted out of N. Africa.

His complete lack of understanding of logistics cost the DAK dearly time after time, culminating in the sheer lunacy of the DAK's invasion of Egypt; his lead-from-the-front style of generalship, while commendable, left important decisions to be made by his staff generals because noone could locate him at critical times; and he did not work very well with his underlings, especially his Italian generals.

An average general who made his claim to fame on two successful campaign's in N. Africa, and not much else.

i disagree with u! the main Germany's Defeat reason was Eastern Front! and Hitler, that thought defeating USSR is more vital than brits in their colonies! well, unfortunately

if Rommel was not appropriate for for entire army, if any general would placed rommel in Africa, the entire army too would be defeated and perished! not to fall back strategically to Italy then Austria & Deutschland and save as many lives as possible!
and it was Rommel that established The......line (i forgot the name!) in north france such as Normandy, that if again hitlers' too many mistakes was not, and Allies Ruse, so an stable army would be in france not eastern front and Allies Could never even reach the shore of Normandy!! thats Rommels Great work!

and i always supported Rommels help in Assasinating Hitler, so there The Deutschland would be victorious over Imperialist Colonizers and Killers and would save the world......all was Hitlers' too many great and little mistakes!

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it was Sun Tzu or Sunzi ?!

[The Lurker Below]

Does this set some sort of record for thread necromancy? 12yrs

and a zombie strode through the halls of the Monastery, returning sound where before there was solitude.

short list:
1. Aslan - Led greatest comeback EVER. Without his leadership the White Witch would still rule Narnia.
2. Field Marshall Disease - employment of Colonel Influenza during WW1 was nothing short of epic.

[ReluctantSamurai]

the main Germany's Defeat reason was Eastern Front!

Careful, now I said Germany's defeat in North Africa.

if any general would placed rommel in Africa, the entire army too would be defeated and perished! not to fall back strategically to Italy then Austria & Deutschland and save as many lives as possible

Rommel's orders were to contain the British 8th Army, and to keep them out of Libya. To that end, once Tobruk had been taken and the British driven out of Libya, any prudent general (and any general with any shred of logistical expertise) could see that any further advances into Egypt had a high risk of failure due to overextended, and very difficult supply situations. But Rommel was anything but prudent, and the result is history...the crushing defeat at Alamein, and the retreat of the DAK all the way back to Tunisia. That result rests squarely on the shoulders of poor decision-making by Rommel.

and it was Rommel that established The......line (i forgot the name!) in north france such as Normandy, that if again hitlers' too many mistakes was not, and Allies Ruse, so an stable army would be in france not eastern front and Allies Could never even reach the shore of Normandy!! thats Rommels Great work!

Rommel certainly made quality improvements to the Atlantic Wall, and his idea to have German armor close enough to any expected LZ to counter-attack the beachheads might have made Overlord's success problematical. But.....Rommel didn't have any better idea than anyone else where the landings would take place. Considering that the Allies had yet to land in Europe, and the Soviets were kicking German asses out of Russia, it hardly any wonder that there were far greater German troop concentrations on the Eastern Front....

So....what qualities exactly make a great field general, and why would anyone think that Rommel possessed any of these qualities?

@ Lurker

[Empire*Of*Media]

Well, i have many replies 7 questions to you but....
for the first i just say
that it was not Rommels Fault that his Advance gone failure. well it was Hitler's. because Rommel Requested Aid of Manpower and Supplies from Hitler, well Hitler Denied it and wanted them for the eastern front and told Rommel To Advance by Themselves & their Will & Faith!!

if Supplies would Reach Rommel.....History would be changed believe me! because Nazi Germany would reach Occupied British Iraq & Irani Oil.....then.........there's no need i tell what would happen .........


(just for fun..... have you played world war II games 1st person like Medal of honor (from PS1to now)?! or strategic?! and in strategic have you played Deutschland?!)

[ReluctantSamurai]

if Supplies would Reach Rommel.....History would be changed believe me! because Nazi Germany would reach Occupied British Iraq & Irani Oil.....then.........there's no need i tell what would happen

I would highly recommend that you throw your copy of Bevin Alexander's "How Germany Could Have Won World War Two" in the trash.......it's sheer fantasy without a single shred of evidence to support it

But here are some sobering numbers:

Some distances

Brest to Moscow 600mi
Tripoli to Benghazi 600mi
Tripoli to Alexandria 1200mi

Port Capacities (from van Creveld's "Supplying War")

Tripoli---45,000 tons/month (under ideal conditions)
Benghazi---2,700 tons/day or 75,000 tons/month (theoretical) [21,000 tons/month was reached on two occasions]
Tobruk---1,500 tons/day or 42,000 tons/month (theoretical) [even 600 tons/day or 17,000 tons/month was rarely met]
Bizerte---20,000 tons/month (granted by the French and never used because of the added need of trucking to get the supplies from there to Tripoli)

Field Requirements

The original DAK motorized division needed 350 tons/day of supplies (including water). To transport this requires 39 columns of 30 2-ton trucks...or 1170 trucks. [keep these two numbers handy when reading the rest of this....350 tons/day & 1170 trucks to transport it]

Bevin's Folly

In 1941, the 7 divisions of the DAK required 70,000 tons/month of supplies (which exceeds Tripoli's & Benghazi's combined capacity).

To supply the 4 armored divisions requested by Rommel would have required an additional 20,000 tons/month (bringing the total for the entire DAK, had those divisions been sent, to 90,000 tons/month---something African ports just could not handle).

10% of the fuel supply shipped was needed to transport the other 90%. So if the DAK's fuel is roughly 1/3 of its' total requirements, then 30-50% of the fuel was being consumed getting it 1,000 mi to the front.

35% of the truck fleet being used to transport supplies was in need of overhaul at any given time.

By 1942 the DAK had grown to 10 divisions (3 Ger, 7 Ital) and its' supply requirements to near 100,000 tons [although this is somewhat exaggerated due to the fact that the estimate was for 10 full-strength German divisions. DAK ground strengths were much less.

Actual Deliveries by the Regia Marina (from Supplying War)

By May 1941, 9% of supplies embarked in Italy were lost enroute to Africa.

From Feb to May 1941, the DAK received 350,000 tons of supplies, or 45,000 tons more than their current consumption.

June 1941 saw a record 125,000 tons debarked. Coastal shipping could only deliver 15,000 tons to Benghazi, however (where the front-lines were).

[Now the German 10th Air Corps gets withdrawn to Greece]

In July, 19% (by weight) of supplies sent to Africa were sunk

In August, 9%; in September, 25%; and October, 23%.

But the Italians still managed to put an average of 72,000 tons/month into port from July to October----enough to meet DAK needs. And to quote Creveld: "Therefore, Rommel's difficulties stemmed less from a dearth of supplies from Europe than from the impossible length of his line of communications inside Africa." [Rommel's claim that he did not have enough supplies is totally false. He had plenty of supplies........back in Tripoli. Due to the lack of rail, and extremely harsh conditions, it was virtually impossible to deliver these supplies to the front lines. Rommel violated one one the most well-known principals of modern warfare that an army should not operate more than 350 miles from the nearest railhead. And the DAK paid the price at Alamein....]

November saw only 30,000 tons delivered due to convoy losses to the RN.

Therefore, the removal of Malta as a source of interdiction, while it certainly would help matters, still would not solve Rommel's 2 biggest problems: port capacity & supply distances.

Now, the Italians did pretty well with the first part......getting the stuff out of Italy and into N. African ports. Up until November 1941, they met or exceeded the DAK's needs.

Rommel's biggest problem, and anyone considering a campaign of the proposed size and scope, was getting the goods to the front. Consider this......All 4 Panzer Armies operating in Russia, at the time, had 14,000 trucks between them. Rommel had something like 7,000 trucks and had requested 8,000 more! All for two light armored divisions, and seven infantry divisions.

And we won't even get into the problem of getting oil from the Middle East to Germany without a pipeline

[Empire*Of*Media]

well thanks for your good Information

i dont know who is Bevin Alexander and his boook or anything
but as you deny these Information that it was not Rommel's fault.......then why and how you trust these information that you quoted ?! Like for example the quotion of Crevald?! maybe crevald himself didnt say that! ......
and like all those numbers and informations of the docks capacities! well many knows that Rommel was a great commander! why he should just moan while he thought he has a great purpose that his great leader gaved for their nation?! well he was not like allies that were fighting for Peoples Wealth resources and blood AND World Imperialistic Domination! they had Great Courage due to their firm Believes and idiologies! and they thought its for greater purpose! not just fighting in battle and taking countries!!!
so Rommel would be responsible if he had done any mistake, not earning medal! (i dont mean his role in Valkrie, but before that)

i believe if he was Comannder in Chief, world war could be another way ! and history !
well, im waiting for your reply friend........

[ReluctantSamurai]

then why and how you trust these information that you quoted ?! Like for example the quotion of Crevald?! maybe crevald himself didnt say that!

If Creveld didn't say those things then I must must be hallucinating or victim of a huge hoax, because I have his book, "Supplying War".

And in the bibliography, he used Commando Supremo documents as well as DAK documents as sources for his numbers....

well many knows that Rommel was a great commander!

Besides the El Agheila offensive and the Gazala battles, what exactly did Rommel do to be considered one of the 10 best generals in all of history?

i believe if he was Comannder in Chief, world war could be another way ! and history

Please elaborate on how things would have been different if Rommel had been in charge instead of Hitler.....