Citadel:Total War units

[Yggdrasill]

Suggestions for Ottoman infantry (both combat and missile):

15th century:
1. Azap – rank and file soldiers, young free Muslim peasants serving as infantry archers, with a sabra (sword) and shield as a secondary weapon. Quite good in hand to hand combat as well, not just pure missile troops. Light armour, just a mail shirt and a helmet (sisak).

2. Yaya – vassal Christian troops. Light infantry, crossbow armed, sword and shield secondary weapon. Not really necessary, however they would be the only Ottoman crossbowmen so I think that it would be good to include them as well. Could be modelled easy by modifying Azaps (give em crossbows and a different soft armour like the Egyptian spearmen, no helmet).

3. Voyniqs – also vassal Christian troops, however these are armoured soldiers armed with polearms (helebards), shield and a sword, similar to generic western militia or something.

4. Janissary bowmen (or Nefer J. Archer, to use an authentic title) – Inf. Archers, secondary sabre and shield, armoured like azaps however much better fighting qualities.

5. Armoured J. (or Zirhli Nefer J) – Heavily armoured Jannissaries. They should be modelled exactly as in MTW, since that unit was one of the few that was very accurate. Polearm, shield and asabre, good armour.

6. Ottoman milita – As the name suggests. A good picture is on the site I suggested under Ottoman infantrymen in the battle of Sisak 1593. A polearm (tirpan battleaxe, shield and sabre, no armour, wears turban).

7. Optional – Siege assault infantry (or Serdengecti, literally head riskers) – Elite infantry armoured in the very comple armour the Ottomans can provide, a metal shield that can resist firearms, sabre or an axe as the main weapon. Melee infantry.

8. Dervish bektashi – similar to screaming women. These priests often accompanied Ottoman armies and would fire up the troops before battle. Very simple to model – a turban, little clothes (peasant style), a sword. Nothing fancy.

16th:
No more yaya inf as they disappeared.

1. Voyniqs – the same as before, no change
2. Ottoman militia – the same
3. azap – the same uniform, instead of bow now has arquebus.
4. Jannisary musketman – No armour. Typican Jannissary outfit (the hat, long yellow or green overcoat). No shield. Just a musket and a sabre.
5. Zirhli nefer – the same
6. Jannissary bowman – same
7. Serdengecti – the same
8. Dervish – the same.

All in all, 10 units, one of which is just a modification (azap arquebus). Not too much I think.

Important ---- Ottomans never adopted the volley fire tactic, instead relied on individual marksmanship. Can that be modelled?
Also, you initially suggested that we include Ottoman pikeman. This would be ahistorical as they never adopted the pike or any kind of linear, phalanx type tactics. This is going to be a major problem for them in the 16th century, however that was actually the case in real life. So basically, they are incredibly strong in the 15th with easily the best available army (best artillery, best cav and best infantry – the Jannissaries). In the 16th the only element that was still better than their opponents was the cav.

[Yggdrasill]

Hey you added my name! Thanx I'm even more amped now. I'll start work on the Moors right away. should be easy as they had a very limited range of units. Or have you changed your mind abot the Mamluks? They really are quite important.

I know very little of Polish cav of the era except that they were probably unique in mixing eastern and western elements having contact with both (the Teutonic order and the Turks/Golden horde). I do know that the hussar was probably not used even thou they most definetely had Hussar type units. Why? Well hussar is a Hungarian word, means 20 (as in one soldier for every 20 households) and was first started to be used sometime in late 15th century. It didn't spread to other countries until the mid 17th or later.
There are a few guys that seem well informed about that over at Pike and Shot forum. Maybe we should drop them a post, I'm sure they'd be quiete happy to help.

Also, what is the final word on the military revolution? As you can see, I divided the Ottoman inf (it was not necessary for the cav as they didn't move an inch from were they were in late 15th) into two categories as I don't know how you plan to do this. What is the end year?

[Yggdrasill]

Oh one more thing. When we start doing the reaserch for the Poles, we should combine it with the Lithuanians. Makes sense, after all they were in a union for much of the period. As I recall some very interesting javelin armed and Mongol style light cav to be had.

[eadingas]

What ending date do you have? The hussars don't start until Bathory in 1570's, and peak of their power is XVIIth century. Before that, polish cav is still strong, but not nearly as strong, and fights in a different style, more similar to typical western knights. It was still being at times defeated by western-type infantry or armored heavy cavalry of Teutonic Knights. Eventually, Poland won over Teutons economically rather than military. Lithuanian light cav was equally important in Poland's battles at the time.

[Silver Rusher]

A few stuff to be cleared up here now;

1. Mamluks are in the game, when you asked the list had not been properly updated.

2. The Polish and Lithuanians are combined.

3. Hussars (excluding light hussars) are quite late in the game, so no worries there.

End date is 1700. (units from the 1600s are scarcely in there, the time is only stretched that far to give more time to the player)

[eadingas]

I don't think 300 years span is a good idea. There've been too much development in warfare over that time, sometimes drastic - and you're be entering the turf of Pikes&Muskets :) If you need more game turns, why not use Myrdraal's 4 turns/year mod?

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Who cares about their turf??? This is an independant mod, it can be made into whatever we see fit, with SR having the most control.

This can be incorporated into the tech tree, advancements that appear late are gained later, due to building times...

[Yggdrasill]

Mamluk Egypt units
Cavalry

1. Khassaki Mamluks - bodyguard unit, heavy cav similar to Kapikullu Sipahi of the Ottoman. Horse is covered in armour. Lance, shied and sabre as weapons.
2. Qaranis Mamluks - Also heavy cavalry, very good armour for the rider, equal to the Khassaki. No horse armour.
3. Amir's Mamluk - Medium cavalry, lance, shield and sabre, no armour for the horse, medium armour for the rider.
4. Halqa Light cavalry - free men serving as horse archers. Bow and sabre armed, mail shirt and helmet.
5. Merc cavalry - Beduin Arab cav (the same as for the Ottoman Turks). Spear and shield armed, maybe bow.

[Silver Rusher]

I don't think 300 years span is a good idea. There've been too much development in warfare over that time, sometimes drastic - and you're be entering the turf of Pikes&Muskets :) If you need more game turns, why not use Myrdraal's 4 turns/year mod?

Don't get me started on whose turf is who's.

If it is really wrong for mods to leap onto the turf of other mods, then by simply existing the P&M guys not only ran onto our turf but went to sack our biggest cities. By existing the P&M guys are giving us HUGE competition.

But turf does not matter, so they are fine, and we and they are free to do whatever we want. I was planning my mod AGES AND AGES before the P&M guys came along, and I decided on ending in the 1700s almost right at the beginning. So don't talk to me about "turf". Plus, the 300 year turn span is only to allow the player more time.

However, the four turns per year thing is an appeal, although it would make the game quite long winded. I'll think about that one.

[eadingas]

Gee, don't get all excited, there was a smiley at the end of that sentence that you all seemed to not notice... but I still think 300 years is a bit too much. This is a period of history in which simply too much has happened - even the list of valid important factions by 1400 and by 1700 is much too different, not to mention the improvements in warfare...

[Silver Rusher]

Yeah, maybe I did over react a bit there...

But really the idea isn't to follow history in that period but instead to give the player more time. I think that's quite important in itself. However, use of the Myrdraal's mod is full of bugs, so maybe it isn't a good idea.

[cegorach]

I was planning my mod AGES AND AGES before the P&M guys came along, and I decided on ending in the 1700s almost right at the beginning.


No offence, but P&M for Rome is just another branch of XVI-XVII mod for a new engine, that is all.

Besides P&M TW is more for late XVI and XVIIth century warfare i.e. earlier wars are not much of our concern, especially 1402-1480 period which is completely not for us - our timeframe historically is 1480-1700.

Also our team + supporters are mostly from earlier XVI-XVII thread which still continues.
I am simply doing my work and you are doing your.

My regards Cegorach/Hetman

[Eastside Character]

You're right Cegorach. Besides, Citadel as I see isn't going to be like P&M for RTW even a bit.
This one is like a completely different story.

Regards,
EC

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Exactly both mod teams have every right to do whatever they want to, as long as they are not blatantly stealing images and such...

[Silver Rusher]

Heheh, let's not turn this thread into a discussion about the rights modders have to do what they want please.

And just one last point though- cegorach1, what I meant was that I was making the mod for Rome ages before your mod for Rome came along. Sorry if it wasn't clear, but mine was one of the first Rome mods to be announced.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

OK I will stop now....... It could have been a great debate but now off to work for the greater good.....CTW!

[Yggdrasill]

Last week was exam frenzy so I had very little time but I'm back with the rest of the Mamluks and Moors:

Mamluk infantry:
1. Halqa militia – militia type unit, however they are not spearmen but infantry archers. As any militia week in hand to hand combat, but as archers they are not bad.
2. Ashir infantry – the rank and file inf of the Mamluks, a cloth covered mail armour, shield, sword and a spear. Cannot form phalanx but are effective enough against cavalry. Very good in melee
3. Naffatin (or naphta throwers or whatever you choose to call them) – just like the ones in MTW. No armour, just a grey coat and a grey hood, to simulate some sort of fireproof fabric, and a small sword for close combat. Maybe a shield as well.
4.North African marine (or Maghribi marine) – a crossbow armed infantry, should be available to the Turks and the Moors as a merc. Not armoured, however has high defense skill. Similar to Cilician pirates in RTW.
5. African handgunner – a typical Mamluk firearm unit. Armed with a arquebus, armoured in mail, helmet, caries a sword or sabre as secondary weapon. Should be made into a effective melee inf as well.

All things considered not a very good selection of infantry units, but that is what was available to them

Granada

Cavalry:
1. Ghulam guard – bodyguard units for the faction family. Simply copy the Khassaki mamluk, change a few bits and pieces of equipement and done. Since they have no other spear armed shock cavalry, maybe this unit should be increased in size to a regular cavalry unit, rather than what is typical of other guard units.
2. Armoured cavalry – javelin armed medium cavalry, similar to Pontic heavy cavalry. Wears a mail shirt, a brigandine of a distinctivly Moorish shape, helmet, a leather daraqa shield and a sword.
3. Jinettes – Light cavalry, mail armoured covered by clothes, a helm wrapped in a turban, daraqa shield, javelins and a sword.
4. Saharan cavalry – available as mercenary cavalry for other factions, for Moors a light cav armed with spear and shield and sword, very high valour, high endurance extremely cheap to recruit and uphold, to simulate that they were religious volunteers. Any other faction that uses them as merc should get a 'stripped down' version,
5. Maybe Mounted crossbowmen – Moors used crossbows in large numbers as an infantry weapon, and used them a lot on horseback as well (although more for hunting than war). Since their unit selection is rather slim, this could be a nice addition.

Infantry:
1. Crossbow milita – Every one in ten Granadan peasant had to serve in time of need and they were armed almost exclusively with crossbows.
2. Urban milita – pike armed milita, however should be better than typical urban militia unit in RTW (which are basically next to useless in a battle). These guys knew how to fight. Rank and file infantry
3. Maghribi marine – a merc unit see Mamluks
4. N. African volunteer (Ghazi) – religiuos volunteers, lightly armed but fanatical. Light infantry (fast moving), leather daraqa shield, spear, sword, helmet wrapped in turban, scarf over face, leather armour.
5. Javelin skirmishers – possible, not sure if necessary
6. Some kind of firearm unit, perhaps similar to Mamluks' NorthAfrican Gunner.
7. In mid to late 16th century, instead of crossbows, militia units would be using firearms as well. So an additional Arquebus militia unit in 16th century.

[Celtic_Winter]

Ok so I am needing some help with the knight orders.
I know there is a research thread for it, but I would just feel more comfortable if I get some help with it.
I have been working on the units for the factions of Italy,Poland,Venice and I have used a lot of the information that Yggdrasill has provided. Thank you it was helpful. Now, I have mainly been working on the early tech tree for this factions, covering the late middle ages.
What excactly did the knight orders use in their armies? I am sure lots of knights, but what was their general infantry...things like this i need.

[Yggdrasill]

Sorry have no info on those. Just two comments.
1. When you work on the Order of the Dragon unit list, make sure you include region specific wallachian units (light and heavy cav). Those are also going to be available as mercs for Ottomans and Hungarians.

2. Make sure you include a lot of Italian units for the Pope. I think the papal armies were much more similar to contemporery Italian armies than the armies of the Teutonic order, or the Hospitallers.

[Saranalos]

I have a question Celtic_Winter since I think you are in charge of the units. is the list okay for me to start working on the units stats or is it just ideas? I can start writing the export_descr_unit.txt file if it is okay?

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

For the Teutonic Order the main army compositions would be as follows:

The Knights: Who would act as Heavy cavalry but would often dismount to form a solid Heavy infantry when fighting the baltic tribes in swamps, forests etc where Heavy Cavalry would be unsuitable. Yet sometimes rash cavalry actions did prove costly, see Grunwald in 1410 when the Grandmaster launched a cavalry charge which resulted i his death and loss of iover 200 Knights.

The sergeants: Lower than the Knights but could act as medium cavalry and good infantry as spear or sword capacity

Tribal contingents: Especially in campaigns against various rebellions such the Osel island rebellion and insurrections after the Durben disaster and the Lake peipus campaign. They would be used as light infantry with the smaller cavalry elements being used for scouting and skirmish's. Main araes were Estonia and Livonia but other places were no doubt used.

Mercenaries: Especially for the archers and crossbows. Thousands of crossbows would be employed from italy. Other types such as some longbowmen were seen in a small number during the early 15th century during lulls in the Hundred Years War. They could have seen action at Tannenberg in 1410.

Guest Crusaders: Many Princes and kings gained experience during the various Teutonic Crusades against Lithuania such as Henry IV, Jean Bouciquat and John the Blind King of Bohemia who helped with small yet resourceful and sometimes vital military contingents.

Also although holding a kind of autonomy, the Sword Brethren(another smaller military order) whose numbers never recovered after losing 2/3 of their number at Saule river in 1236 would often join the Teutonic order in battle such as at Lake Peipus where many fought under the Bishop of Tartu and most were later assimilated into the Order.

Also various settled Germans and some danes would have seen action either as a militia or cavalry such as in Livonian Feudal Cavalry(although some tribal elements would have been present in this area also)

[Silver Rusher]

Leading up to the Pike and Shot era of warfare, due to the high cost of proper professional soldiers, many nations used a lot of mercenaries in their armies. It was not surprising to see an army of more than 50% mercenary build.

Some mercenaries:

Genoese Crossbowmen:
Probably the most popular mercenary unit of the time, the Genoese where probably the finest crossbowmen available. They were used largely by France in the Hundred Years War as many crusaders and other european factions.

Condotierri:
The most feared mercenaries in Northern Italy, they did not spread out into the service of other nations but instead laid a helping hand in the contant disputes in the rivalries between the Italian duchies. They were very much elite troops to be mercenaries, which was why they were so popular.

Neapolitan infantry:
I've seen the model and skin for these done and I think it would be good if they were made available as mercs.

And many other rebel specific units would probably be good, gotta sleep now, post more tomorrow.

[Celtic_Winter]

Alright.
Thanks Blind king! that was helpful.
Saranalos, Sure if you know what you are doing, get working on it
And silver rusher, Yeah, I originally planned for the Neapolitanian infantry to be mercenary, since Naples wasn´t added to the game, I thought it would be necesary to add atleast one Southern Italy unit.

[Saranalos]

Right I will . Although I will not be able to change what faction they belong to yet as that wont allow me to check if the changes I have made worked.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Sounds good guys, I unfortunately will be getting more busy, because of finals and may not be able to continue much research until near the end of the month, but I can continue with my normal posting and such, just research time may be limited.

[Silver Rusher]

Some more mercs:

Tartar Horse Archers:
At Tamerlane's death the Golden Horde, after effectively rising out of the grave, fell into shreds completely once again. Had Tamerlane had an heir, the Golden Horde could even still be around today. This left lots of soldiers out of work, who spent most of their time travelling around and looking for new masters to serve.

Indian Infantry:
Indians have always been based around infantry, a few cavalry and elephants in their armies. But as the mongols came along infantry just seemed to be useless for them. So then they went off to travel around the area, scarcely going past Persia (which is the region where they will be available) looking to be mercenaries for whoever saught to hire them.

Indian Elephants:
I thought it would be nice to have a tiny few elephants in this game, just as incredibly rare mercenaries only available from one province, Persia. Most of the description from above goes for this too.

[Yggdrasill]

My Venetian unit list

1. Mounted crossbowmen
2. Mounted hand-gunners, later also Mounted Arquebusiers
3. Stradioti light cav *
4. Utili Man-at-arms (lighter version,no horse armour*
5. Elmetti Man-at-arms (manatarms with horse bard)*
6. Cavalleria Leggeria - mid 16th century Venetian attempt at a demi-lancer type cost-effective cav*

1. Militia crossbowmen - militia type unit
2. Urban arbalesters - we could have a version of these with pavise shields
3. Urban militia - very good medium infantry
4. Marine - a very effective crossbowmen, an elite (optional)*
5. Hand-gunners, later Italian arquebusiers also available
6. Venetian infantry - the unit God is working on *
7. Italian heavy infantry - armed with a staff weapon
8. Cretan archers - they were still around beleive it or not *
9. Militia Pikes - a mid 16th century attempt at modern infantry unit, not as effective as foreign types *

The units marked with a * are Venatian only, exclusive. Other should be made available to the Italians faction also.

[Saranalos]

Just two questions will I mark Gunpowder units as archers? And what about siege units later on in the game will there be cannons?

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I like the idea of allowing elephants to be used only in small amounts as mercs. I think if we have gunpowder sieges we need cannon.... My .00001 cents.

[Celtic_Winter]

Yes. Cannons will obviously be necesary in the game. I had posted some information on them in this thread I believe.