General

[Ashton]

Another quick question,

I read once, I beleieve in the men and monsters forum, about units being able to fortify their allies towns and villages will this be available in BL?

I only wonder as i felt it might help stem, the atack of the demon hordes.

[Shaka_Khan]

Here is a website that show videos of a Korean cavalry:

Various Cavalry Movements
Demonstrations

[Avicenna]

Sun Wukong would be a great idea.. except with his personality he would probably attack anyone he wanted to (unless the Buddha, or in this game the monks, forbid him to by reducing the size of the ring on his head). This would be quite problematic.. and add the fact that his stick, which can be made as large as he wants, would be impossible for the R:TW engine and it would simply demoralize and rout the enemy in one swift shot.

[Martimus]

I was wondering about the the faction leader, and family members. How will these be implemented, will you create unique characters ? or traits ?

[hopeless]

Hi, this is my first post but I have been following this mod for a while.
I remember reading somewhere (forgot where) about the agents you are using in this mod.
I like the ninga and the chinese diplomat, but the spie doesn't have character.
I mean that of the three main cultures, you have only two of them represented in the agents:
the ninga (japanese) and the diplomat (chinese).
I believe that the spie should be a kitsune (japanese fox demon) so that the demons have a representative.
I believe that they would be the perfect choice because traditionally they are not evil (just mischievous) and were known to be quite mercinary in their dealings.
I know this might be too late for any change, but I just had to say it.
Anyways,
all praises the god of Rome Modding,
Hoggy


How watch the dancing elephants.....



Aren't they pretty?

[hopeless]

I forgot to mention the kitsune's transformation ablities (they can make them selves look like anything as well as other objects) and their trickster nature.

Again watch the pink elephants dance.





Yea, thats the stuff.

[Asean]

What do you guys think of the idea of adding another faction? I'm thinking maybe you can create a Demon/Human hybrid civilization in the Southeast Asia regions to replace the vast emptiness there .... Here are some ideas for possible units:

[Asean]

Some more Possible Units and models of Archers amd warriors:

[hoggy]

Really nice reference material Asean. At the moment we've got enough on getting the existing factions working but that faction looks promising for a possible future expension.

[Asean]

Cool.... yeah I'll prefer if the team concentrate on the existing factions instead of trying to add another faction and pushing back the release. But when you decide to create a southeast asian faction as an expansion, I'll try to help provide some info..

[MAt]

What do you guys think of the idea of adding another faction? I'm thinking maybe you can create a Demon/Human hybrid civilization in the Southeast Asia regions to replace the vast emptiness there .... Here are some ideas for possible units:

I think that sounds like a really good idea, for a possible SEA faction... specially putting the demons in there as well - cos as Im sure you know theres a widely accepted culture of capturing and 'converting' demons to protect religious sights in this part of the world.

But if your gonna create a 'hybrid' civilization I also reckon since the Khmers were pretty much out of the picture at the time most of the other factions were at their height it would probably be better to go with just a Siamese/Burmese style army, since they were the main contenders in late medieval SEA... plus from the little I know about the Khmer army it wasn't too hot...

Oh well, I guess we're a long way from ever seeing anything like it in Blue Lotus... fair enough, but it would be cool.

[Asean]

I thought Blue Lotus was a "fantasy" mod with no timeframe.

[Asean]

Southeast Asia City gates (possible designs):

The one on the left is more of a medieval late 16th-17th century Thai gate. The one on the right is an older 11th century Khmer city gate.

[MAt]

I thought Blue Lotus was a "fantasy" mod with no timeframe.

lol
ok fine, tbh maybe Khmers would be better stylistically in terms of building design and stuff, but their army wasnt particularly well equipped or very good.... I was just thinking in terms of unit variety etc later medieval would provide more inspiration.

[Asean]

but their army wasnt particularly well equipped or very good.... I was just thinking in terms of unit variety etc later medieval would provide more inspiration.

You're basing this off of what? Please explain how Siamese/Burmese military are more "stylish", superior or better equipped then the Khmers? War elephants, archers, cavalry, spearmen were generic units in Southeast Asia.

[MAt]

You're basing this off of what? Please explain how Siamese/Burmese military are more "stylish", superior or better equipped then the Khmers? War elephants, archers, cavalry, spearmen were generic units in Southeast Asia.

Ok, Im not claiming to have a broad knowledge of the subject, but as far as I was aware, it was generally accepted that subjugated Thai princes were able to not only drive off their Khmer overlords but sack Angkor and seriously finish off the Khmers as a significant military and political power in the region. Even at the height of their power, Chinese ambassadors commented on the Khmers' poorly equipped and poorly diciplined troops, often wearing little armour and more like a militia than an army.

By the time we get to the Ayuthaya period in Siam, the Siamese are by far the wealthiest power in the region, and weapon and armour technology gained significant advances with Chinese and Arabian influences. However the Burmese campaigns against the Siamese showed that the Burmese were by far the most effective fighting force in the region - although they could not withstand the Siamese resistance, even after Ayuthaya was burnt to the ground and all central government was effectively wiped out, the Siamese were able to rally and push the Burmese out.

The fact is, as far as the historical records I know of show, the Khmers downfall was their poor military and inability to ensure that Thai rebellions were dealt with effectively. By the time we get to 15th/16th/17th centuries, arms and armour had moved on considerably and your looking at much better equipped and trained militaries in SE Asia. The number of troops begins to vary a bit more and I think its fair to say there were more than just war elephants, archers, cavalry and spearmen.

I dunno... like I say I only have a very basic knowledge of South East Asian militaries - but war museums Ive visited in Bangkok alone would suggest a much broader array of troops - as well as various countries having differently equipped armies. If you're sure that armies in the region did vary much less than I seem to have figured then I'd be genuinely interested in being corrected.

EDIT: I just found this which might be of interest - it does indicate the level of equipment of Khmer armies at any rate...

http://fanaticus.org/dba/armies/dba110.html

And while this doesnt go into a great amount of detail about specific make up of armies, it gives a good account of what warfare in medieval SE Asia was like... I dunno... its an interesting read anyway.

http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/cou...s%20ch7DW.html

Ok this one is a pretty good one for looking at Siamese weaponry

http://www.chiangmai-chiangrai.com/to_arms_1.html

[alahir]

i swear this was a fantasy mod

i dosnt have to be all historcaly correct if its fantasy

it is fantasy there are demons

[Asean]

You may be right about the Khmers not having much armor, especially the lowest order of the Khmer army, who wore nothing but loin cloths and went into battle having only a shield and sword/spear. But then again, the same can be said about most Southeast Asian armies back then. You have to remember, this is in Southeast Asia, it gets really hot and the environment is totally different, and thus armor wasn’t used much. It's about mobility and fast movement in thick jungle terrain. However, some armor were used such as armor made of cane, leather and some metal. The Khmer, for example, certainly weren’t a rag-tag poorly put together army as you seem to be suggesting. There were some interesting units and weapons used, such as chariots, war elephants, cavalry, arhcers and infantry with different types of weapons and shields such as spears, swords etc. For example, here are some of their units and weapons depicted:

Spearmen:


Elephant Archer:


Archer:


Interesting Weapon:


Cavalry:


LongShields:


Chariots:

Site with some Khmer weapons:
http://www.fareastasianart.com/direc...d_Weapons.html

12th-13th century Khmer cuirasses:

Ok this one is a pretty good one for looking at Siamese weaponry

http://www.chiangmai-chiangrai.com/to_arms_1.html

That certainly is nice weaponry. But do you have any information on the Siamese/Burmese superior Armor? Many of those weapons were used by most armies in Southeast asia. The cannons and such came into use around the 16th-17th century, and were from the British. I do like the Siamese/Burmese army. There were some interesting units from there. If you prefer the Thai/Burmese army, you'll have to model the units from modern interpretation of what they were like, since there aren't many, if any, pictures of their units from this time period. It's easier to just go with the Khmer, since they had a huge influence in the region, had a huge empire, equally interesting units, unique architecture and such. But since they lack armor, you can always give them less defense attributes.

The fact is, as far as the historical records I know of show, the Khmers downfall was their poor military and inability to ensure that Thai rebellions were dealt with effectively.

What led to the downfall of the Khmers is still controversial. Military may or may not be one aspect, but leadership, stability of the economy and empire, religion, etc. also plays a role. But that's another topic I won't get into.

[MAt]

Thats some interesting stuff there. I'd agree with you about the general lack of armour in most armies of the region for most of history. And you're right there's not much information to go on for later armies, a lot of medieval Siamese art generally depicts soldiers as unarmoured, carrying a darb (sword) and a tow (small shield) accompanied by generals mounted on elephants. Id imagine the darb/tow combination must have been fairly generic in reality too, since it is still the symbol of the Thai police today. There were some heavier armoured troops as well, the picture of the armour on that website doesnt really do it justice - Im not sure who would have worn armour like that, I cant imagine there would be too many of people wearing it though.

A lot of the later technology in the region was a blend of technology that they imported from China, India and Arabia as well as Europe, I think there's definately scope to come up with a really interesting faction based on SEA.... but I still think with a unit roster you could include troops from across the region as well as the Khmer.

That said, what demons do think should be incorporated into the army?

[Asean]

That said, what demons do think should be incorporated into the army?

Some fairly common ones should be Hanuman (Half Monkey Half Man), Demon/Giant from Ramakien mythology etc. I don't know much about southeast asian mythology, I'll have to do more research.

[ramareddy]

Actually, Hanuman is the name of a specific character in the Ramayana, where as his people (half-man, half-monkey) were called "Vanara".

[Helm Hammerhand]

Well, I played the Zensen for a while and I got some problems with the pirates:
The fleets of them are nearly unbeatable and its not possible to afford 2 drilled fieldarmies when all harbours in the "Japanese Sea" are blocked.

I guess its about how to reach the monks island (which makes sense to me) but fighting the demon hordes and the chonson without money is really though.

Isn't there a possibility to reconfigurate the pirate fleets with less harder men (like 200 and not 600) so that they are beatable with a respectable fleet?

It really dropped the gaming factor, towns are revolting (damaged temples can't be repaired) and the demons making party in the realm.

By the way, I think the engine for auto-resolve against demons is a little bit "weird". Fighting them manually causes "heroic victory" (because they panicked very easily after attacking with Kamikaze), but auto_resolve with a 7-star commander causes a draw or only minor victory with heavy own casualities.
Why this? To enforce manual playing?

[Moros]

The autoresloving is something we haven't change, it still the same as in vanilla.
I'll have a look if the pirates are so overpowered cause I never had porblems with them before (I played a verry long time with the indians with who I even conquered the monk Island, tough that was a previous version. As conquering the monks is nearly impssible now. I think I will nerf them a bit.) Anyway I'll have a look at thos pirate fleets and see if they need to be nerfed too.

[Helm Hammerhand]

Well, it seems that the problem is not the strenght itself, it is the combination of a few pirate fleet in the eastern seas. For instance, if I attacked a pirate fleet with 200 vs 200, the chances are good to win the fight. But after ending the round, all pirates fleet around come to mess me up... - so 3 or 4 fleet with 300 to 600 men wrecking my fleet at once...

[Moros]

So the problem is the amount of fleets? Hmmm I'll see if I can make a better compromise.

[Helm Hammerhand]

Yeah indeed it is. Historically you're right about the facts of piracy (if we can use historical facts for that issue) - but I don't think that it is realistic that rebels can afford a 4 times bigger fleet... - and because the AI seems not to build fleets, well it is all about the playa...

I don't know how the rebel AI is working (like refreshing the fleet...) but my idea was, to decrease the fleet in max manpower and increase the whole amount of rebel fleet. This would guarantee the same playground with fair chances to beat the pirate fleets.
By the way: what is the boni of the monks temple (the one on the island)?

[Moros]

Kay I'll see what to do with the pirate fleets.

Hmm...Forgot that. I'll look it up.

[Jakku]

Hey! I'd just like to say that this Blue Lotus mod is simply the best mod ever made for RTW!!!!!!! I waited for ages for a mod to come out with the japanese faction/factions! Even then i was expecting them to be a load of bull !!!!!!!!!!!! But then i found this on the front of PC GAMER and i was like wow!!!!! After not playing rome in ages i went and re-installed it just for this mod!!!!!!! I thank all the blue lotus team for making this fantastic mod! Just one thing though...
I think it would be good if you could bring back the battlefield ninja from Shogun back into this mod! I used to love seeing the ninja run across the field! Sorry if they are in it and i just can't find them! Would be cool though!
Thanks!
Jack/Jakku

[Moros]

Hey! I'd just like to say that this Blue Lotus mod is simply the best mod ever made for RTW!!!!!!! I waited for ages for a mod to come out with the japanese faction/factions! Even then i was expecting them to be a load of bull !!!!!!!!!!!! But then i found this on the front of PC GAMER and i was like wow!!!!! After not playing rome in ages i went and re-installed it just for this mod!!!!!!! I thank all the blue lotus team for making this fantastic mod! Just one thing though...
I think it would be good if you could bring back the battlefield ninja from Shogun back into this mod! I used to love seeing the ninja run across the field! Sorry if they are in it and i just can't find them! Would be cool though!
Thanks!
Jack/Jakku

Ninja's are mercenaries. You can recruit them in (let me check...)
the provinces:
Ouyama_Provence Yuusen_Provence Hokyo_Provence Kiso_Provence Akagi_Provence Akitsuki_Provence Epirus
Or Japan in other words.

Just a question but what did they say about the mod in PC gamer?

[Jakku]

Just a question but what did they say about the mod in PC gamer?[/QUOTE]



In PC Gamer they said exactly this:
'Blue Lotus
Where God is on nobody's side'
The citizens of Blue Lotus must find it very hard to get competitive insurance rates. Not only is there seemingly always a war on, with demons and zombies fighting bitterly for supremacy of the three-continent world, but every major disaster is an act of God. There's no way Allied War-Elephant Insurance Ltd Is going to pay out these circumstances. And the premiums must be dreadful.
Blue Lotus is a Rome: Total War mod that pays homeage to ancient Japanese, Chinese and Indian mythology, but isn't in any way beholden to it. In the middle of these races sit the gods - drunken, bitter and divisive - raining catastrophe, misery and misfortune on the weary humans below. So far, so realistic. However, the modder cities ''cinema,fiction and random imagination'' as equally important sources when it comes to units and armies, and subsequently there's ''no real constraint'' on what can be included. The result is an impressive mod featuring fishmen, monkeys, Onimusha- style zombies and giant demonswith enormous spiky things they'd like to show you close-up.
There are other factions beyond Eastern mainstays, though they're not yet as developed as the original three. The Demons are playable but don't present too much of a challenge while the Mongol and Korean factions are fairly thin at the moment; ultimately they'll get the extra units they need. But then, this doesn't claim to be a totally comprehensive conversion - much of the artwork is little more 'placeholder' in reality, for instance - but the creators wisely take the point of view that it's best to get a working version out there (currently beta v1.0, though there's a small patch) than spend forever in development hell.



Jakku