Horse Archers are BROKEN in 1.2 patch!

[Spino]

A few people over at the Com and TWC have brought to light a HUGE bug which affects mounted bow equipped units (chariots included). Apparently mounted archer units cannot properly fire their missiles while galloping ('running') towards or away from an enemy!

http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...ID=20725.topic

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index...howtopic=20731

Some choice quotes...

I just discovered something real strange in custom battles after patch 1.2 is applied. Missile cav can not shoot on the move now. Instead there's animation of the archer getting ready to aim and fire but no arrow comes out. even though the unit card says they are firing, animation is moving, but no arrow is being shot out. they are only shoot while stationary or in cantabrian circle.

I have the exact same problem. I was in the middle of a Scythian campaign and could take down pretty much any infantry army of any size with just a couple of horse archers. After the patch they get chased around for ages by the enemy and never get a shot off. Sometimes they do shoot but no arrows fly, just the sound. During a siege the enemy would sally out of the front gate and would have to get within javelin range before they would start getting killed. It seems like maybe they messed with the range. As it stands, they're about as useless as HA in MTW--they run before they get a shot off.

Even after they halt, the arrows fail for one cycle.

Well, it's not entirely gone.
Just tested a battle of scythian horse arches vs peasants -
They do fire as they used to while in Canterbarian circle
they also shoot while riding at slow speed, although firerate seemed very slow
they do NOT fire while running, and therefore not while moving away in "skirmish mode"

I've verified this bug myself in a few custom battles.

CA may have a two patch deal with Activision but this is a big bug. We'd better start screaming our heads off now and demand a fix otherwise it'll be a looooong wait until the expansion comes out.

[Sam Adams]

i dunno if that is a bug or not. Usually an arrow(or rifle) aimed from horseback was uselessly innacurate.

[sapi]

yes, but it still fired, didn't it
screams!

[Colovion]

excellent, maybe now there can be a third patch to fix the few things that were missed? ie: campaign map replays etc...

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I am absolutely sure that I was just shot at by galloping Pontos Missle Cavalry (in 1.2, no mods). They had one or two units left, and I was chasing their missle cav with a general and my javelin cavalry. They were not routing, but were running away from me. I saw the little 'being fired upon' icon over my general and zoomed in. There were no other units around, and my javelins were out of missles. I just happened to be right in tight on their cavalry when they spun around in their seats, lifted their bows and fired at me (behind them) at a full gallop. A second or two later they routed when my guys caught up with them. I don't think my guys died, so I can't confirm that the shots killed anyone, but i saw them shoot just a few minutes ago. I was playing as Seleukids. Dunno if there are problems elsewhere, but i'm just saying what I saw. I can't confirm the cantabrian circle or any of that other stuff either.

Can't try to retest this now. Gotta get some sleep.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Lest someone doubt. Instead of "spun around", probably "twisted at the waist" would be more accurate for what they did. Some clown will say "see! he's lyin'!"

[Colovion]

I did a test:



Seems like they're all sitting out there going "heeeey" like the Fonz with their bows (this was with them walking BTW). THey'd do that for a while and then one or two of them would fire and then they'd gallop away to do that again. I used about as many arrows as in MTW and eventually got fed up and charged into the enemy, losing some of my valuable horse archers.

:*(

[CeltiberoMordred]

I already told the reason at .com yesterday, but I'm afraid I was a bit ignored...*Sigh*

The fact is that cavalry archers SHOOT WHILE MARCHING/RUNNING. As I told yesterday:

" If you want your cavalry archers shoot to any direction while running, you must turn off skirmish mode. Simple as that.

In skirmish mode, they will shoot while running if they march frontally to their target; in other case, they will be too worried watching to avoid possible threats and they don't spend time aiming and shooting unless the target is clear for them."

So consider this like a realistic new feature.

This is not applied to javelins because that would make these units useless.

And that's is for cavalry as well as for chariots. Cantabrian circle is another story: only really shoot those horses that are just in front of target, as always.

[HicRic]

I've run some tests and I've sometimes heard an occasional arrow being fired (only about two or three from a unit), however, I haven't been able to see if an arrow has been fired or not.

Most likely it seems the cause for this is the FF fix; the horse archers are now judging that the chance of hitting one of their companions is too great and so they don't fire!

Celtibero Mordred, I'll have to take a look at that. It seems strange that they can run and shoot only with skirmish mode turned off, seeing as they could to it fine before! It'd be really annoying to have to do this, as it means even more micromanagement.

[CeltiberoMordred]

Try it and you will see I am right

[The_Emperor]

That means I'll be screwed playing as the Parthians... The greater bulk of their armies (especially early on) are going to be Horse Archers, and there is no way I can micro them all by turning skirmish OFF.

This seems to be a bug as my Parthians did have trouble with them all lifting their bows and then deciding to lower them again without shooting.

[Red Harvest]

Haven't tried it yet. Sounds like a bug to me. One of the improvements of RTW had been the horse archers.

[SpencerH]

While we may be able to take HA off skirmish, will the AI? I doubt it. AI controlled HA will be useless.

[hellenes]

Well i will have two installations of RTW one 1.2 for non HA factions and one 1.1 for Parthia, Armenia Scythia, while in the online aspect the HA factions will diminish as the Mongols in MTW VI...

Hellenes

[Doug-Thompson]

Nobody's a bigger HA fan than me, but even I have to admit that HA in the unpatched game were overpowered.

Now I hope they haven't been nerfed. I've had about zero RTW since going out of town on business.

[_Aetius_]

I used some horse archers yesterday, and they were firing on the move, as were as far as i could tell the enemy chariots.

[Red Harvest]

Doug,

I don't think you are going to like it much. I tested this out with some Scythian HA's vs. hastati. Other than one cycle, they no longer fire when withdrawing in skirmish. That is how they were *meant* to be used. After that they do the animation for the Parthian shot, but they never fire. It is pretty much broken. The HA's managed 2 kills vs. those 81 hastati...before the HA's (left in skirmish) ended up against the map edge.

Funny thing about it prepatch was that HA's were one of the few archer units that I only very slightly nerfed in 1.1. I heavily nerfed the regular archers on range and missile attack. The problem was in the AI countering them (bringing the right armies to the field, and fighting them properly), not in their ability. Note that it won't matter much for AI vs. AI because those will be autocalc'ed anyway.

[Orda Khan]

i dunno if that is a bug or not. Usually an arrow(or rifle) aimed from horseback was uselessly innacurate.

Really? I would be very interested in the source of this information, considering it contradicts all the reports that I have read on the subject of Horse Archery among the many peoples of the Asiatic Steppes.

I do not agree with Celtibero Mordred's statement about accuracy either. So you now have no FAW while skirmishing away from enemy? Why then would the mode be called 'skirmish' if they clearly do not 'skirmish'???

I waited ages for 'realistic' horse archers [ firing on the move, Parthian shot etc ] we had them finally and now CA have dropped another one.

Oh well I guess RTW will stay on my shelf

.......Orda

[Spino]

I already told the reason at .com yesterday, but I'm afraid I was a bit ignored...*Sigh*

The fact is that cavalry archers SHOOT WHILE MARCHING/RUNNING. As I told yesterday:

" If you want your cavalry archers shoot to any direction while running, you must turn off skirmish mode. Simple as that.

In skirmish mode, they will shoot while running if they march frontally to their target; in other case, they will be too worried watching to avoid possible threats and they don't spend time aiming and shooting unless the target is clear for them."

So consider this like a realistic new feature.

This is not applied to javelins because that would make these units useless.

And that's is for cavalry as well as for chariots. Cantabrian circle is another story: only really shoot those horses that are just in front of target, as always.

No, it's not realistic and it's a bonafide bug. Why? Historically nomadic peoples of the steppes were notoriously good with a bow in the saddle, regardless of whether they were shooting while at a gallop, trot, walk or standing still. Call it the result of spending several hours a day on the back of a horse or pony since the time you could walk.

But the worst part about this bug is now the AI is royally SCREWED when using any kind of mounted archer units, especially horse archers. The AI never turns off Skirmish mode for these units unless they run out of ammo and can charge a weak or routing unit. Essentially any AI army with horse archers will now be a pushover for a human controlled army with cheap cavalry. Since the Parthian Shot is also nerfed by this bug your cavalry can eventually charge into their rear or flank without losing any men to arrows.

In one fell swoop Parthia, Armenia and Scythia have been effectively declawed by this ridiculous bug.

[Steppe Merc]

God! Why can't the people at CA get anything right? This is pathetic!

i dunno if that is a bug or not. Usually an arrow(or rifle) aimed from horseback was uselessly innacurate.

Wrong.

Of course it's not realistic, and it had better be a bug, and they had better fix it fast. I'm sick and tired of this crap.

[hoom]

Sounds like a bug induced by the fixing of the friendly fire bug to me.

[Mr Frost]

Nobody's a bigger HA fan than me...

Guess you never met Magyar Khan then

[Doug-Thompson]

Doug,

I don't think you are going to like it much. I tested this out with some Scythian HA's vs. hastati. Other than one cycle, they no longer fire when withdrawing in skirmish. That is how they were *meant* to be used. After that they do the animation for the Parthian shot, but they never fire. It is pretty much broken. The HA's managed 2 kills vs. those 81 hastati...before the HA's (left in skirmish) ended up against the map edge.

Yep. Put in the patch today and did a 1 on 1 battle with a spear unit.

It's exactly like javelin troops in MTW. Left on skirmish, they'll never fire -- except the HA can fire with Cantabrian circle.

So, Cantabrian circle may have a point now.

The HA got exhausted and couldn't run away though. Fatigue will be a big factor.

This change is sure a heavy hit to HA, but all is not lost. I'm sure that two HA working together can still decimate a phalanx. In fact, the AI should start chasing the one firing -- which means they will stop chasing the skirmishing one that stop firing, which can start firing again.

[Steppe Merc]

But what about the AI? They never use the Cantabrianian Circle!
Also, I never use it, as it's ahistorical and I think it sucks.

How dare you call yourself a horse archer fan, and not think this is horrible.

(Just kidding. )

[Claudius Maniacus Sextus]

well this certanly makes Armenia,Parthia,Pontus(in a minor part),Sarmatia and Numidia(in a minor part).i think that the "ELITE" HA like Catapracht A,Sarmatian Noble Arcers and Persian cavalary and DEFENETLY Chariot Archers(were there are 3 peoaple,and should NOt be affected by this) should not be affected because they are exepctional at their job,so they could not be bothered by runing and shoting.i think.

anyway that will defenetly give more chances to cav. against HA's.
Light Cav. is my army made of!!! HAHAHAHAHAH!!

[Claudius Maniacus Sextus]

well this certanly makes Armenia,Parthia,Pontus(in a minor part),Sarmatia and Numidia(in a minor part) unplayebale.i think that the "ELITE" HA like Catapracht A,Sarmatian Noble Arcers and Persian cavalary and DEFENETLY Chariot Archers(were there are 3 peoaple,and should NOt be affected by this) should not be affected because they are exepctional at their job,so they could not be bothered by runing and shoting.i think.

anyway that will defenetly give more chances to cav. against HA's.
Light Cav. is my army made of!!! HAHAHAHAHAH!!

[Doug-Thompson]

Oh, it's definitely horrible, Steppe Merc. It's just not proven to be the complete, unmitigated disaster that it appears to be.

If there aren't any good tactics to offset these changes, THEN it's completely horrible.

The frustrating thing is that I can't get any playtime until weekends now, and it's limited then.

[RJV]

OK, I'm not normally in favour of baiting the developers, especially when the majority of what they have delivered seems well received, but this....???? True, the Human player can get round the (lack of) functionality to some extent through some unwanted micromanagement, but will the AI be able to cope? I doubt it.

Can't see why it should be the FF fix that has done it (though I don't know the code obviously) as from what people have said it happens when there are no other friendlies around. Consequently, one can only assume it's a deliberate change in the HA combat routines. But WHY have they done it?

I think in this case some CA contribution would be of value to the community. And to the community as a whole - if we do get some comments, don't flame the hell out of them before they get started...

Cheers,

Rob.

[Red Harvest]

I think we've found RTW's equivalent of the "King dies at 56" bug.

[TigerVX]

I think its more an implementation then a bug. I tested with Parthian HA's today, and found some interesting results. I tried the Persian Cavalry, they used the parthian shot effectively and like normal. Then I tried regular HA's, they didn't use it at all. This leads me to believe that only your elite HA's can actually use the Parthian shot.