New thread for centralized data access.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Basically this is a thread to hold the revised facrtion lists and all unit lists and other material that is ready or nearly ready to be used as final work for the game.
If anyone would like the unit lists just ask here and I can e-mail or pm you the 13 pages of unorganized work.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Basically this is a thread to hold the revised facrtion lists and all unit lists and other material that is ready or nearly ready to be used as final work for the game.
If anyone would like the unit lists just ask here and I can e-mail or pm you the 13 pages of unorganized work.

Edit: Faction list ready for revision:
Castilians
Danes
English
French
Golden Horde
Hapsburgs
Hungarians
Mamluks
Moors
Polish
Russians
Turks
Venetians
Papacy
Tuetonic Knights
Burgundy
Milano
Naples
Scotland

May Add:
Poland

Removed Factions:
Argonese
Knights of St. John
Knights of the Dragon
Italians
Note there are 20 slots, plus rebels.

I know this is not the most up to date list, but I want to get rid of all the confusion and start from the beginnning again. I believe we wanted to get rid of the Knights of the Dragon, have 2-3 Italian factions instead of Knightly orders and have 2 German factions. Now we can start to shuffly them about and ensure that we do not make a mistake.

[Yggdrasill]

Allright my comment on the factions...

No Aragonese...why? Well, Spain was united from 1485 onwards (and for brief periods even before that) and having two Spanish factions would, as years pass, be unrealistic. Try imaginig the 16th century face of Europe without Spain, instead having Castille or something...dumb. Instead get Burgundy, that dukedom disappeared entirely by chance and could have been a major player in the 16th century. .

Change Italians to Milano.
We don't need Order of the Dragon (very minor players, and not even a state/knightly order but more of a loose aliance of Wallachian nobles for a brief period of time), and the Hospitallers, although interesting, would be a waste of a slot. Too few provinces, too weak, only interesting as pirates/corsairs, and with the ships being what they are in RTW...

So in thier place, we put in Naples (so we get three Italian factions + Pope). We keep the Teutonic order. Optionally, instead of Naples, we put in Aragon-(Naples included as a part of it), or a third German faction. But this would create a problem with cultures.

In place of the other knightly order we put...either Sweden or another German faction. I vote for the German faction even though Sweden will be missed.

Also, chances are that an inevitable expansion shall bring many improvements to the gameplay...maybe even additional faction slots. Something to think about.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

So now we have 3 "Papal minions" and two Germanic factions?

[Ignoramus]

I still think we should have 3 German factions. Saxony, Bavaria, and Hapsburgs. But if 2, Saxony and Hapsburgs. Also DEFINATELY change Aragon to Naples!

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I forgot to remove them, even though they were on my list of removed factions.....

I counted the factions in RTW and got 21. I believe this is right and so we have the possibility of adding three more factions. This list may not contain some that we have decided to add so could everyone please take a close look at it. I can then add Saxony.

Are we keeping Tuetonic Knights?

[Ignoramus]

My suggestion for the 3 extra added factions:

Saxony
Bavaria
Wallachians(after all, if we didn't have them it wuld leave the Balkans empty)

I also think we should change Teutonic Knights to Sweden, as they were had one of the best armies in the 1500's.

The faction list would then look like:

Bavaria
Burgundy
Castile
Danes
English
French
Golden Horde
Hapsburgs
Hungarians
Mamluks
Milan
Moors
Naples
Papacy
Polish
Russians
Saxony
Sweden
Turks
Venetians
Wallachians

How do think that looks?

[Ignoramus]

Right, this is my final suggestion: Change Teutonic Knights to the Gaelic Confederation! Keep the rest as above.
I mean the list in my last post.

Ignoramus.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Before I institute the suggested changes I would like to hear everyone elses opinions. So far i agree with hyim, although it may be difficult to fit the Gaelic Confederation in as their units are very very different from everyone elses. But if we could I think it is a great idea.

[Saranalos]

Yes I think everyone should say what they think about this, as I am not the best historian I wont comment on this.....

[cegorach]

I also think we should change Teutonic Knights to Sweden, as they were had one of the best armies in the 1500's.

I suggest not to do it cause the Order was extremely important at that time in its part of Europe ( e.g. Tannenberg 1410 and then untill 1525 or even - as Livonian Confederacy - to 1561).

Sweden was important, but after 1600, so if you need to choose the Order would be far better choice.

Regards Cegorach

[Uesugi Kenshin]

As per Ranika's advice if we added a Scottish or Irish faction it should be Scotland and there is no historical accuracy of a Gaelic Confederation, though it would be nice.....

[Saranalos]

As per Ranika's advice if we added a Scottish or Irish faction it should be Scotland and there is no historical accuracy of a Gaelic Confederation, though it would be nice.....

Thats no reason why we shouldnt have the Irish in as a faction saying its ahistorical is rubbish because everything about the game is ahistorical the Irish and scotland wernt united in real life but in the game who's to say? The whole point of a game is that something different can happen every time.

[Ignoramus]

I agree, if we make exact to everything, it would spoil the gameplay. Also, Scotland and Ireland were so similar it seems silly only to have one and not both of them united as one. And so there wasn't a Gaelic Confederation, we can't make everything 100% accurate and I think it is very good idea!

[Ranika]

By this period, the Irish and Scots were hugely different; the Irish were an amalgam of mostly Gaelic and Nordic culture with Norman influences, and the Scots were a mash of Gaelic, Nordic, Pictish, Norman, Saxon, and Angle influences. They didn't think of themselves as the same people by this time; it's pure fantasy to think such a confederacy would ever occur by this period. The last time the Irish and Scots thought of themselves as remotely similar was when Robert the Bruce sent a letter to the Ui Neill telling him that 'our nation' was in trouble; however, the Ui Neill snubbed him anyway, feeling that 'our nation' was an incredibly rude statement, because the Ui Neill did not feel they were part of the Scots (nor did any of the other Irish). They only accepted aide from the Bruce because of threat of invasion from England.

Irish and Scottish armies were composed of different types of soldiers, they wore different types of clothing, they spoke (and speak) two different languages, etc. The only thing they have in common is a common ancestor. This is like saying the English should be confederated with Germans. Many of them had the same ancient ancestors, so why shouldn't they be a confederation?

[Ignoramus]

Maybe so, but some Scots did speak Gaelic. Also, this is the only way to get them in. We shouldn't leave out one of the two, so combine them, maybe a little ahistorical, but unavoidable.

[Ranika]

Why is it not alright to ignore one and not the other? The Scots at least had a country. I'm from Ireland, but, I don't see the appeal of the Irish in this period unless they were an indepedent, single province faction, and there was space for them. The Scots are a plenty workable faction by themselves though, without the need to be propped up by being combined with a foreign country. The Scots were (vaguely) stable, had their own government for the entire country (which still paid lip service to clan chieftans, but they were still under the rule of one), and were condensed enough to be a faction on their own. The Irish were in a state of anarchy with Gaelic and Normano-Gaelic lords trying to make a grab at land and establish a kingdom. In game terms, Ireland would be rebels; they have no major leader, they have no centralized authority, in this period. It's just as well to make the faction Scotland, and allow them to get Irish regional units in Ireland.

Also, Gaelic is colloquialism; there are three main Goidilic languages; Irish, Scottish (which is called Gaelic in English casually), and Manx. They're languages from the same family, but they aren't the same language. I can speak both Irish and Scots Gaelic, but before I learned Scottish, at best, I could feel my way through it due to similar sounding words (and I can do the same thing with my French and Spanish, which I don't speak; still not the same languages but I can feel through it a bit if I take it slow).

[Ignoramus]

I do agree that Scotland was much more stable than Ireland. But then Scotland would only get one province if you look on the region map.

[Ranika]

Has to be a way to cut it in half. Divide the lowlands and highlands, maybe; that was a very real division, and can be fit, I believe.

[Ignoramus]

Send a PM to Uesugi Kenshin, he will organize the fixing of it.

[Ignoramus]

Right, I now vote Scotland!

[Ignoramus]

Ranika. Why don't you take over Scotland's unique units? And cities too.

[Ranika]

PMed him. I'll get on the Scots soon if it'll help. I think that's the best alternative, but I'd have a few Irish regional units;

Galloglaidh; they were still used, but they were technically mercenaries, so it might be wiser to just have them as mercs, and they did work for others but the Irish. Also, they favored a two-handed long axe, not a greatsword, in most cases. They used the Sparth axe (a 6 foot pole with an axehead on it), and dressed in chain armor and iron helmets. They originated in around 1200 AD as the need for heavy infantry climbed faster than Irish kings could train their own. They hired these mercenaries from the Hebrides. The name itself means 'foreign warrior'

Kernbannal; spearmen/lochaber axe men, they worked four months out of the year, and traded off, they were peasants, they wore padded coats or leather, and marched in a formation akin to a phalanx (similar to what Scottish pikemen did, but with shorter weapons, so not as good); Irish light infantry

Omacach; swordsmen with flintlocks, they'd fire a shot and charge, the earlier version, the Cleighcach (Cleighnaght), are just swordsmen, these would be like Irish medium infantrymen, with leather brigadines and large wood shields, with longswords, or Irish-hilt swords.

Lewnaght; THESE are two-handed swordsmen, not the Galloglaidh; Lewnaght used the forerunner to the 'slopping quillons' style sword of the Scots; the lewing sword is bigger, longer blade, rounded off tip (it's too long to thrust with properly), and a 'four-hand' grip, a massive grip that accomodated numerous hand positions to utilize the very complicated martial art used for the lewing sword; these swords date as early as the 4th century, and were used by the Irish into the Victorian conquests, and one even showed up during the Anglo-Irish war in the early 1900s; Brian Boru's sword was a lewing sword. Very heavy infantry, in chain armor and iron helmets

Hobilar; Irish medium-to-heavy infantry. Irish hobilar were different from English or French Hobilar; they were nobles or wealthy aristocrats; they wore good quality chain armor, iron helmets, swords or hand axes, Irish lances (which are used in an overhand fashion), and javelins, and rode small ponies (larger horses have trouble on Irish soil over long distances)

Taghhoba; later hobilar, wore padding instead of chain, iron helmets, and used rifles and longswords or Irish sabres; essentially the same as hobilar, but with a better ranged attack, and poorer armor

There are a ton others, but this gives, I think, a fair grab bag of Irish soldiers for regional units; three types of infantry, and two types of cavalry.

[Saranalos]

Why is it not alright to ignore one and not the other? The Scots at least had a country. I'm from Ireland, but, I don't see the appeal of the Irish in this period unless they were an indepedent, single province faction, and there was space for them. The Scots are a plenty workable faction by themselves though, without the need to be propped up by being combined with a foreign country. The Scots were (vaguely) stable, had their own government for the entire country (which still paid lip service to clan chieftans, but they were still under the rule of one), and were condensed enough to be a faction on their own. The Irish were in a state of anarchy with Gaelic and Normano-Gaelic lords trying to make a grab at land and establish a kingdom. In game terms, Ireland would be rebels; they have no major leader, they have no centralized authority, in this period. It's just as well to make the faction Scotland, and allow them to get Irish regional units in Ireland.

Thats the attraction of it trying to forge a kingdom with masses of rebels on every side it would give the players who find the game too easy a challenge. I'm not for a Gaelic Confederation but having Ireland in the game would be quite hard because you have to forge your empire out of 1 province. And I think the scots could be rebels with quite large and strong armies.

[Ignoramus]

But think about Scotland. Only 2 provinces and England to the South! Also, they would have as poor economy. Now's that's a big challenge!
Anyway, Rebel are easy to beat!

[Saranalos]

Not if you are fighting with peasants and basic swordsmen there not.
Plus I always wanted to see Ireland in as a faction it would be extremely hard and fun GO IRELAND

[Ignoramus]

I know, but we can't chuck out any other faction just to fit Irealnd in. Also, you can BRIBE the Rebels so easily!

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I will pm Eastside immediately so he can make Scotland two provinces. Too bad Ireland will not be in, but maybe we can put them in Fuedal if we get to it and still want to do it.

[Ignoramus]

Yes, that's a good idea.

[Yggdrasill]

1. Carthage = Spain (not Castille, Spain)
2. Numidians = France
3. Egypt = Burgundy
4. Spain = Habsburgs
5. Gaul = English
6. Germans = Danes
7. Dacia = Hungarians
8. Schythians = Poland-Lithuania
9. Thrace = Russia (Muscovy)
10. Greeks = Golden Horde
11. Pontus = Turks
12. Armenia = Moors
13. Parthians = Mamluks
14. Britons = Pope
15. Seleucids = Venice
16. Senate = Milano
17. Julii = Naples
18. Brutii = Teutonic Order
19. Scipii = ???


Note - this is not listed according to cultures

Where are the factions 20 and 21? I think you miscalculated! So all of this is really moot, since we only have one faction slot free, and most likely it will go to a second German faction. Although we could give it to Scotland, but imagine the whole area of HRE with only one faction (Habsburgs) and everything else rebels.
Even so we are ignoring such important factions like Tamerlane and his successors, various North African kingdoms, Qara and Aq Qoyunlu Turks (rivals to the Ottomans, major player in today's Iraq), Georgia, Moldavia and Wallachia, various Greek provinces, Sweden. And with only 1, perhaps two German factions... I can't believe you are seriously considering adding both Ireland and Scotland... Scotland perhaps, it's a trade off, but really no more.