New thread for centralized data access.

[Yggdrasill]

Counter reformation was a movement spearheaded by the Church to revitalize the faith in face of growing number of protestant supporters. It was mostly in the form of religion debate, ideological turns in the Christian dogma, more charity work and less corruption. IIRC it started at the close of the 16th century but the 17th century wa its pinnacvle (baroque era). It's a cultural thing I don't know in what context it came up at this forum?

Poland was and still is catholic (hello John Paul 2, the guy all dressed in white lived in Rome up unitl a few days ago ). I think Poland and Hungary should be the same culture (both central European, both catholic although a strong protestant movement started in Hungary but because of teh Turkish threat it never took strong roots), and Muscovy an Orthodox culture (Egypt in RTW) as the only representative (because out of 20 faction only Russia is in fact Orthodox)

[Narayanese]

It came up because I was unsure if poland was catholic in the renaissance. I've read a little more now, it seems the royal familiess both of hungary and poland were catholic, but that both countries were much more secular in 15th century then western europe, and had orthodox churches as well as catholic.
It's good to make them one culture, and muscovy alony in its culture.

Edit: The lands of the teutonic order weren't german (though the order is german of course), the population was prussian (whose language was most like lithuanian and latvian), so if we need a three-faction-culture, teutonic order fits with poland and hungary.
Thus cultures could be: muscovy ----- hungary, poland, teutonic order ---- milan, imperial diet (hesse?), saxony, hapsburg (austria) ----- moors, mamluks, turks, golden horde ------ england, scotland, castile and leon (spain), kalmar union, france, burgundy ------ venice, naples

[Ignoramus]

Scrap Teutons, they are a waste of a faction.

[Narayanese]

Scrap Teutons, they are a waste of a faction.

I've been thinking about Teutonic order, and I know I have been the strongest supporter of them being in game, but I forgot one thing. The Order would be a normal faction, ie babies, heirs and such, but in rl they were a militarty monastic order that took it's celibacy vows very seriously! So the sam problem as we would have with the Pope as a normal faction. So I'm now somewhat inclined to having Bavaria as a faction, insead of teh Order.

This does not, however solve the problem of the hole in the Baltic area, the Poles that have virtually no opposition or perhaps that three german factions, three Italian factions plus the Senate (be it Diet or Pope), will surely result in some repetition in units.

Sounds like the teutonic order is going away.
Their celibacy could be simulated by making wives, daughters and sons into male servants/knights/squires/whatever and skipping surnames, and have surnames part of the first name so that they aren't inherited, however that would be a clumpsy solution.

I don't like bavaria as a faction because it is too buffered by rebels and so small, and it was split in three from 1375 to 1503.

If teutonic knights are scrapped my suggestion is Bohemia. Bohemia was ruled by the Wenceslaus IV of House Luxembourg, who was also the ruler of Brandenburg until 1417 and the "king of germany" (ie HRE emperor with bad papal relations). Thus we would have rather big faction (bohemia + brandenburg including Neumark (Neumark, also known as East Brandenburg, was lost to the teutonic order in 1402, ie. slightly after startdate of the mod)) to reign in polish expansion and reduce the number of rebel provinces at the start. It saddens me to leave out milan from hre, but milan never had any power in imperial matters like brandenburg saxony and hapsburg had.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I would have to side with Bohemia, I think it will work better than fractured Bavaria. But I think we should make Tuetons trainable by a certain set of factions and in only their home provinces. I think that would help spice up the unbit selection in that area and prevent the Tuetons from being totally left out.

[Yggdrasill]

If so then the third faction should not be Bohemia but rather the House of Luxemburg that owns Bohemia. (like we have the house of Habsburg instead of simply Austria).

Teutons as trainable region specific units can be done. A few knight units are possible.

[Narayanese]

Calling it Luxemburg rather then Bohemia sounds good, but then should saxony be named after the ruling family, like the romans in vanilla?
Saxony was split in two, with house Wittenberg as the prince-elector (the family died out in 1422) and ruling upper saxony, and house Ascanian ruling lower saxony (the family lost power in 1689). By calling it saxony rather then a family name we could have both into one faction, just like the moors.

Could poland ever recruit teutonic knights after its conquests?

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Was it Luxemburg or Luxembourg, because as far as I know at the moment it is Luxembourg. Names do change over the years, just wondering.

[Ignoramus]

I'd have Saxony instead of the House of Wittenburg.

[Narayanese]

Was it Luxemburg or Luxembourg, because as far as I know at the moment it is Luxembourg. Names do change over the years, just wondering.

Luxembourg is the modern french and english spelling of the name, Luxemburg is the modern german spelling, the local modern spelling in the duchy is Lëtzebuerg. The family has also had its name spelled Lucilinburhuc, Lutzburg, Lützelburg, Luccelemburc, Lichtburg according to wikipedia, not sure when.
So it was not Luxembourg at least, the ou spelling is french. Maybe they were called Luxemburg already back then, I don't know.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I think we should use the modern German, it is a German speaking area and it would probably be hard to find the actual original name of such a small kingdom. To clarify I think it should be Luxemburg.

[Ignoramus]

I have just had a great idea! Why don't we change the "The Gladiator Uprising" to the "The Protestant Uprising"? It would show the religious upheaval in this period. It suits perfectly because the Senate factions are German, and as they had the most religious turmoil, it would be a sensible conversion.

[Narayanese]

Protestant Rising is a good idea, but we should have godspetmonkeys popup as well.

Edit:
Here is a nice map of Europe in year 1400 btw.
Here is a list of areas ruled by house Luxemburg (from this page where the family is called Limburg) at some time, those ruled in 1402 in bold:
Emperors of the West [Holy Roman] (4) 1313-1314, 1355-1378, 1383-1419, 1433-1437
Kings of Germany (5) 1308-1314, 1346-1400, 1410-1437
Kings of Bohemia (4) 1310-1437
King of Hungary (1) 1387-1437
Dukes and Duchess of Limburg (9/1) c. 1020-1282
Duke of Brabant (1) 1099-1106
Dukes of Luxembourg (8) 1247-1412 (thats pretty much the same as the modern grandduchy of luxembourg)
Margraves of Brandenburg (4) 1373-1417
Count of Tirol (1) 1335-1341

Croatia was ruled by hungarian viceroys.
Bosnia was autonomous.
Hungary was formally ruled by sigismund luxemburg, not wenceslaus luxemburg like bohemia and so, but they were close kin.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I like the idea of protestant uprisings. What building would we have trigger it? It would have to be beneficial to the player in some way and be related to protestants. Would a special "german" church work? Use the same model and stats, but give it a different name and such.

[Ignoramus]

I thought we could change the name of the Gladiator Uprising to Protestant Uprising.

[Yggdrasill]

Croatia was ruled by ban, an elected official from the ranks of Croatian nobles, and Sabor, an assembly of nobles. It was in a personal union with Hungary (ie two countries one king, like Scotland and England today). For all intents and purposes it was a part of Hungary. Bosnia was part of Hungary as well. The thing is, Sigismund of Luxemburg was the Hungarian king then, but was fighting a civil war with pretty much every noble family in Croatia nd Hungay who opposed him. This was happening right in the time our mod starts. The war was rather brutal and at this time was going badly for Sigismund. So Bosnia kind of separated itself from the rest of the country then, using the turmoil to its advantage under its most powerful king Tvrtko. He backed up both parties at different times based on his own agenda. After his death, and following the end of the war in Hungary, Bosnia weakened rapidly, with large parts of it taken back by Hungarian kings (also the time of crusades against bogumils in Bosnia) and Ottomans drawing ever nearer to finally swallow it in 1463.

Just a little history for you all .Bosnia should be a rebel province.

[Narayanese]

Does this mean we have a free faction slot (hungary part of luxemburg)?
My history teachers all managed to 100% ignore hungary before WW1...
Tver and Smolensk were in personal union with muscovy btw.
We could have White Sheep Federation (Ak koyunlu) (a nation that was a rest from tamerlane's empire that expanded a lot in 15th century, mostly into mesopotamia, leader in 1402 was Qara Yülük ‘Uthman, suddenly destroyed after 1500 by civil war), or Georgia (christian kingdom that fragmentet during the 15th century, but many of those fragments survived during all of the period of the mod), Wallachia (next to turks and hungary) or Novgorod (cold place), to mention a few candidates.
Genoa was a french protectorate in 1402, switching during the 15th century back and forth between french and milanese rule.
Is hesse the province for the imperial diet? it should be...
Was lithuania polish or not? seems like they had differnent rulers but i'm not sure, all those varying spellings makes it difficult. I'd not like to have poland or lithuania as a rebel area.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Faction list
Castilians
Danes
English
French
Golden Horde
Hapsburgs
Hungarians
Mamluks
Moors
Polish
Russians
Turks
Venetians
Imperial Diet (HRE, senate faction)
Tuetonic Knights
Burgundy
Milano
Naples
Scotland
Poland

This is the old one, I do not remember which factions we were changing other than Papacy to accomodate the HRE, someone please post an updated one. I unfortunately do not have time to right now. Thanks.

[Ignoramus]

Okay Uesugi, here it is:


Senate Factions:

Bohemia
Saxony
Hapsburgs


Teutons are out.
Danes=Kalmar Union


Um, I think we will have to make Milan a Diet factions as I just added these up and it comes to 21 1 too many, I guess its bye bye for Bohemia

[GodsPetMonkey]

Oh no... not again!

sigh...

*Barbarian: (west europe)
Castile and Leon
Kalmar Union
England
France
Burgundy
Scotland
*Rebel=West European Independent State

*Greek: (muslim)
Golden Horde
Moors
Mamluks
Ottoman Turks
*Rebel=Muslim Independent State

*Eastern: (italian)
Venice
Milan
Naples
*Rebel=Italian City State

*Roman: (german)
Imperial diet (Frankfort on Main)
Habsburgs
Saxony
Bavaria
*Rebel=German Free Imperial City

*Egypt: (orthodox)
Muscovy
*Rebel=Orthodox Christian Independent State
*(including balkan rebels)

*Carthaginian: (east catholic europe)
Poland
Hungary
*Rebels=Central European Independent State

based of Narayanese's list a few pages back.

IMHO Bavaria makes for a better imperial subject then Bohemia (historically), but thats a minor matter.

[Ignoramus]

I always wanted Bavaria. Oh no, I'll make a new poll.