Shogun's response to patch campaign

[marcusbrutus]

CA have a fair point when they say that they arn't making another patch because it's not up to them. The suits only care about the bottom line .

Everyone who bought the game has a fair point that it should do what it says on the tin. I want a challenging game, not a challenge to play the game for as long as possible without loading .

I hope the expansion pack fixes the 'statistical fluke' and I'll find out because I'll buy it because I really enjoy playing Total War.

All in all, Total War rocks and I don't care that it's broken, all my best toys get broken and I dont care! It's MORE of a challenge for eagle eye action man can't see what's next to him

Sorry lost it a bit.

[Puzz3D]

Most people are satisfied with the RTW. Those that are unsatisfied are in the minority, and would do well to understand that they're debating from a minority position. If a minority becomes too demanding they will be locked out.

The one patch policy is nothing new. (I don't count v1.1 because that was an emergency fix for MP.) This is how all the games in the series have been handled going all the way back to the first game: STW. It would have been unprecidented for CA to make a v1.3 patch. One patch has never solved all the problems in these games, so you end up buying the second patch in the form of an add-on. The problem for me is that I no longer believe that CA will address the remaining issues to my satifaction even in the add-on. It just too obvious now that CA is not trying to maintain a high level of quality in the gameplay. The fact that many things in the game don't work as they should seems to be ok with CA, ok with the majority of the players and ok with the professional reviewers. It's only a minority of the players who would like to see the game come close to its potential.

[Colovion]

Asking the mods of the forum to allow threads aimed at hurting the image of RTW is a little silly, imo. It's like asking a store owner to let you in his store to hand out flyers asking people to boycott his store. If you want to stand outside the store (ie, public property, in this case, create your own forum), by all means, do so. But expecting him to cooperate is just asking too much.

While I think this crackdown may be going too far in suppressing opinions of the game, I would, in their position, be doing the same thing. Except I'd have booted "Killemall" from the mod team for his flagarant exacerbation of the situation.

Bh

I see your point, seeing as it is the main site and all.

However, (and you knew there had to be one) the least they could do is setup one single thread that says "List your Gripes Here" and close all seperate threads.

A community that is discouraged from posting their concerns on the official website is going to find somewhere else (The Amazon ordeal). Would CA rather have people posting in their main site, where they can control it, or in a public area? Sounds like they've made their choice and they can't understand why no one likes it.

[SpencerH]

It's been repeatedly stated the Amazon campaign and its results are not up for discussion - Cat

[Satyr]

After having exchanged a couple emails with one of the staff at CA I think the problem is one of lack of communications from CA and the fact that CA can't fix the problem because of Activision. Even if they wanted to distribute another patch I don't think they can. Rome belongs to Activision and I don't think anything will be different until the first game or expansion is released under Sega. If after that happens and CA fails to deliver a decent game or reasonable patches I will abandon CA all together. Till then I will maintain hope that they do GET it but can't do anything other than what they are doing.

[Ab Urbe Condita]

I see your point, seeing as it is the main site and all.

However, (and you knew there had to be one) the least they could do is setup one single thread that says "List your Gripes Here" and close all seperate threads.

A community that is discouraged from posting their concerns on the official website is going to find somewhere else (The Amazon ordeal). Would CA rather have people posting in their main site, where they can control it, or in a public area? Sounds like they've made their choice and they can't understand why no one likes it.

As far as I can tell, the Shogun has only promised to ban people "set on damaging the TW series." You make it sound like he's vowed to ban anyone who comes to the forums with a complaint.

[Gregoshi]

1) A few of us need to watch the language.

2) I thought Cat and Nelson made it clear that the Org forums were not to be used to sling insult or abuse at CA and its Org patrons. We wouldn't allow someone to say such a thing to you. Why would we allow you to say it to others?

[Colovion]

As far as I can tell, the Shogun has only promised to ban people "set on damaging the TW series." You make it sound like he's vowed to ban anyone who comes to the forums with a complaint.

Well no, I didn't mean that you'd get banned for complaining - but that the thread would be locked and/or deleted rather quickly if there was a new person coming with a complaint about near anything.

Valid complaints can't be heard/posted on the official site anymore because they've all been heard already. Doesn't that seem a little strange? The mods probably think it is getting rather old with people complaining about the poor quality of the game without very much other substantial threads besides ones pleading for improvement, hence the lockage. However, that very reality speaks volumes about what the people who are enthusiastic about this game are concerned about.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I'm sorry.

I got carried away in my anger at their patronization. I have edited the post.

Crazed Rabbit

[hoom]

For quoting whats in my sig I was accused here by a CA staff member of being destructive.

I've been playing Medieval since.
Why? Because my N.I. (natural intelligence) decided that indeed I would be better off doing something other than playing RTW.

Many did it before me and many will do it after but all because they are not satisfied.

Fundamentally as I see it CA themselves & Activision are doing the most damage to the TW series by poor design decisions and long term poor support.

I have not partaken in campaigns against CA just argued for better support.

[starkhorn]

IMO, it would have been a lot more contained if ye olde Killemall moderator hadn't inflamed the situation several times.
Still... maybe his posts were meant to inflame so the thread could be 'legally' R&R'd..?

I agree that the whole review thing on amazon probably wouldn't have happened if the moderation and communication had been handled better. I don't understand though how they can lock and ban people from making posts disagreeing with shogun, whilst leaving threads open that agree with them.

http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...ID=24780.topic

Even more strange was I had seen a post after Killemall's post which basically said "isn't this double standards ?" which appears to have been deleted.

Doing stuff like that has only inflamed the situation (as Aphex said) leading to the whole amazon and email campaign thing.

Shame that moderation policies got in the way of game issues.

Cheers
Starkhorn

[screwtype]

The problem for me is that I no longer believe that CA will address the remaining issues to my satifaction even in the add-on. It just too obvious now that CA is not trying to maintain a high level of quality in the gameplay. The fact that many things in the game don't work as they should seems to be ok with CA, ok with the majority of the players and ok with the professional reviewers. It's only a minority of the players who would like to see the game come close to its potential.

You know, I have to take issue with that. CA spent four years developing this game! That is hardly what you'd expect from a company that doesn't care about its products.

More likely Activision blew the whistle and forced them to release before it was quite ready. Either that or the code has just proven too complex to fix. But I don't think one can assume they don't care about their games or their customers. After all, they've given us five great games and expansion packs, most of which have been very well received.

I just hope that when it comes to the XP, they have paid attention to some of the criticisms of RTW, particularly the complaints about quick battles and the less than ideal campaign and battle AI. If they fix these things, and also design it to be as moddable as possible, then I can probably live with a few minor bugs

[ElmarkOFear]

I think it all comes down to the market RTW was targeted to. CA wanted to attract the massive "casual gamer" market and they did.

Casual gamers do not find a lot of "bugs" and are less apt to recognize them or feel they ruin the gaming experience. They do not really get very "deep" into the mechanics of the game, and just play to enjoy the grandeur and spectacle of it all.

Hardcore fans, DO find a lot of problems, which they consider bugs, but which the much larger "casual gamer" market feels are inconsequential.

The same could be said for the MP community. It was not the market RTW was targeted to, so there was less emphasis placed on it and more on the "wow" factors and "feel" of the single-player game.

Since we are not the target market, I can understand CA's decision to not to waste resources on us and make changes which will not increase the satisfaction of the main, and larger target market.

I have also come to understand over the past 4+ years, that it will always be that way, until CA decides to target the MP market or the hardcore fanbase. I am waiting on that day, and will then buy into the TW series once more, but not until I am sure it offers what I am looking for in a game.

[screwtype]

After having exchanged a couple emails with one of the staff at CA I think the problem is one of lack of communications from CA and the fact that CA can't fix the problem because of Activision.

Aw heck you exchanged emails with a CA staff member and didn't post them here? How inconsiderate

I have to agree though, from what I've read they have a contract with Activision and they can't release another patch unless Activision agrees, which they apparently don't.

So I'm inclined to think that if there's going to be some sort of campaign, it should probably be directed toward Activision rather than CA or gaming mags.

Even if they wanted to distribute another patch I don't think they can. Rome belongs to Activision and I don't think anything will be different until the first game or expansion is released under Sega.

Again I tend to agree, except that I heard the XP is stll under contract to Activision, though I don't know if that's true.

If after that happens and CA fails to deliver a decent game or reasonable patches I will abandon CA all together. Till then I will maintain hope that they do GET it but can't do anything other than what they are doing.

Yes, I can overlook the flaws in RTW if we see a substantial improvement in the XP. As I said to another poster, RTW shows all the signs of being rushed to market prematurely. I'm hoping that with the XP we will see the polish that was lacking in RTW. I'll be very disappointed if we get the same old game with nothing more than a new map and units. But CA has dropped a few hints here and elsewhere that that will not be the case

[screwtype]

I think it all comes down to the market RTW was targeted to. CA wanted to attract the massive "casual gamer" market and they did.

Yes, they wanted to appeal to a broader market, and there's nothing wrong with that, except that I think they went too far in the direction of dumbing things down.

Surely it couldn't be all that hard to offer a comprehensive list of options as in games like Imperialism II or Panzer 3D. In those games, you can set virtually every variable to suit yourself, or just pick from a variety of presets. There's no reason I can see with a game like RTW that they couldn't design it the same way, to appeal to both the RTS crowd and the tactical/strategy buffs. Or perhaps even better, make the game as moddable as possible so the mods can create just the game they want.

I realize of course that modding won't be a solution for the MP crowd. I sympathize, but since I'm not an MP'er this is not something that affects me.

[HarunTaiwan]

Companies that care about quality and reputation pay attention to the small details and keep the hardcore customers as happy as possible.

Just as an example, the scarred general bug - it's unfathomable that someone playing a Roman faction for 4 hours straight would never notice all the "Scarface" "Cruelly Scarred" family members popping up after 1.2 patch was released.

I think even a casual gamer would start being annoyed at this - I know I had several generals all named Scarface. ha ha - isn't that funny - the first time.

Lucky for CA, they can rely on hardcore customers to fix this stuff for them...but what happens when they drive those people away?

Now, I hope CA can talk with Sega before they launch the next TW, and explain that there will need to more after-sales service and support. They should be using the experience frm RTW to push for this. (Lemon into Lemonade.)

[screwtype]

Actually, I have to agree with you that some of the bugs are so obvious it's unfathomable how they were missed. In my first few hours of playing RTW 1.0, I found so many bugs I could scarcely believe my eyes.

Also, they didn't fix all the bugs the community listed before 1.2. The broken pathfinding in cities is one that comes to mind. I'm sure there were others, but I no longer have the original list.

Anyhow, I have to agree with you that CA needs a more flexible patch policy. A game like RTW is obviously too complex to be limited to just two patches.

[Puzz3D]

You know, I have to take issue with that. CA spent four years developing this game! That is hardly what you'd expect from a company that doesn't care about its products.

More likely Activision blew the whistle and forced them to release before it was quite ready. Either that or the code has just proven too complex to fix. But I don't think one can assume they don't care about their games or their customers. After all, they've given us five great games and expansion packs, most of which have been very well received.

I just hope that when it comes to the XP, they have paid attention to some of the criticisms of RTW, particularly the complaints about quick battles and the less than ideal campaign and battle AI. If they fix these things, and also design it to be as moddable as possible, then I can probably live with a few minor bugs

I didn't say they don't care about the game. I said they are not interested in maintaining a high level of quality in the gameplay. That's why they don't see something like the loadgame issue or fast battles as issues that should be addressed. Of course, CA isn't one person, but some key proqrammers who were interested in gameplay left before RTW was released. You can readily see the shift away from gameplay in RTW.

[Cendre]

I think Shogun's response is a good thing, it acknowledges that CA is concerned with people campaining against their game.
Industry in general is getting more and more driven by profitability, revenue is increased at the expense of quality. QA is considered a cost to a product not an asset to it's making. If a company knows it's selling a faulty product but believes it can get away with it, it won't hesitate to release it, the only driving factor is increased short term revenue.
So when a company realises there's enough people out there unhappy with the product to the point where it could impact future sales, what they do is either improve product or lose a big chunk of profitability.
For those people who complain about other customers 'smearing at RTW', I only have to say to them that if everyone adopted their attitude to faulty products then everything we'd buy would be total junk...
I think even if CA doesn't release a patch the message as sunk in and they'll make sure their next product fixes the existing bugs, I'm sure there will be new bugs and news debates but I hope there will also be a better emphasis on QA and customer support.
Oh, and for all the companies who continue decreasing support for increased profitability, I just wish you all to go bust...

[Zawath]

The expansion pack is coming in September. It's not wise to spend months doing a new patch for RTW, when they can concentrate on the expansion, which should fix most of the bugs.

[screwtype]

I didn't say they don't care about the game. I said they are not interested in maintaining a high level of quality in the gameplay. That's why they don't see something like the loadgame issue or fast battles as issues that should be addressed.

Admittedly it's possible to draw that conclusion Certainly I agree that those issues you mention - and others, like the campaign/battle AI - ought to be fixed.

However, if CA has a contract with Activision, and Activision will (a) not provide money for QA and (b) not allow CA to release a patch that hasn't been tested by Activision's QA, then CA's hands are tied, it seems to me.

Look, I understand the frustration of people on this board, and I'm unhappy with the situation too, but I'm willing to give CA the benefit of the doubt until I see (or rather, read about) the quality of the XP. If the XP also turns up with obvious issues, I won't be buying it until they are fixed, and if they aren't fixed at all, I might go buy a piano instead

[Bhruic]

The expansion pack is coming in September. It's not wise to spend months doing a new patch for RTW, when they can concentrate on the expansion, which should fix most of the bugs.

Yes, because everyone knows that after buying a game, you then have to pay more money to buy an expansion to get the bugs fixed in the game.

Bh

[red comyn]

To put a slight (lmao) tilt on this, you have the same right to customer service with this product as any other.

Lets take a car for a bigger example. You buy one it dives, but the handling is very poor as the suspension is missing, it wont do over 20 miles an hour, the electric windows dont work and the engine cuts out sometimes.

You take it back but it comes back now does 30 suspension is there so handels better but electric windows now go up and down everytime you turn it on engine still cuts out.

So you take it back again and are told by the dealership that they have a strict one go at fixing it policy as anything else would impact on there profits, but if you wait for them to develop a new engine they will let you buy one from them, which should also fix the windows.


Ok bit big, cars cost lots more than RTW so lets go for a television, cheap on from one of those 24hr tescos. So you get it home just in time to watch corrie. But it switches itself off only half the channnels work, and youve got to rest all the channels. So it goes back to the maker, it comes back its on all the time, but youve still got to reset all the channels and some still dont work, but there is a note saying that this is a feature of the televisonnot a problem so ther not going to fix it.

Now everytime you try and ring there call center they tell you your not allowed to discuss the matter as it might make them look bad and bar your number so you cant call back.

Im sure we could come up with relevent examples, phones for instance and the recenly withdeawn sony eriksson k700i for instance, or any other product you care to mention. I know these are extreme examples but seams to be what CA are telling us, and as a consumer you wouldnt stand for it with any other product, just because this one cost you less dosnt mean it shouldnt do what it is ment to.

[ElmarkOFear]

Harun: Actually, for the casual gamer, which is probably the majority of players of RTW, they wouldn't notice the scar problem, since they do not delve that deeply into the game to even check for general's bonuses.

I know when I first started playing Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri game, I played it as a casual gamer to start out and enjoyed it very much. I put it away, and several months later, I broke the game out and actually decided to take a lot of time to learn its nuances. My enjoyment increased and I found out I had missed out on a great many things which I never noticed when playing it casually.

This is more than likely the cause of the big difference of opinion between the groups. What you hardcore players take for granted as obvious, is not obvious to casual gamers and not a big deal for them since they enjoy the game for other reasons.

I understand your frustration. I have had 5 years of the same for the MP side of the game. But I realize that RTW MP is more enjoyable for the casual gamer (which the game is targeted for), and not as popular with the hardcore MP community. I resigned myself to waiting for an MP-focused TW game. Until then I will wait to purchase another TW game.

[ShellShock]

To put a slight (lmao) tilt on this, you have the same right to customer service with this product as any other.

Lets take a car for a bigger example. You buy one it dives, but the handling is very poor as the suspension is missing, it wont do over 20 miles an hour, the electric windows dont work and the engine cuts out sometimes.

You take it back but it comes back now does 30 suspension is there so handels better but electric windows now go up and down everytime you turn it on engine still cuts out.

So you take it back again and are told by the dealership that they have a strict one go at fixing it policy as anything else would impact on there profits, but if you wait for them to develop a new engine they will let you buy one from them, which should also fix the windows.

...some more examples

Before we install the game we have to agree to an EULA that absolves Activision and CA of any responsibility. I think this is legally how they (any many other software companies) protect themselves - we the poor consumer have to agree to put up with any defects, or we have the choice of not installing the software, and presumably getting our money back (although I don't know if anyone has ever tried this after they have taken the CD out of the packaging).

Also the analogy with other products is not as straightforwards, as there are different degrees of fault. CA have said that the load siege bug is a design feature. We can imagine a car having many such "design features" that we do not like, but you would not be able to get the manufacturer to change them under warranty.

[red comyn]

Also the analogy with other products is not as straightforwards, as there are different degrees of fault. CA have said that the load siege bug is a design feature. We can imagine a car having many such "design features" that we do not like, but you would not be able to get the manufacturer to change them under warranty.

yes there may be many things that niggle about something that we may have liked done slightly differant, but what im saying is that if something else in another product affected it performance/usfulness as much as the A.I. stopping everything and restarting everytime you reload does then you wouldnt let the manafactuer/supplier just fob you off by telling you it was ment to be like that, so why should we here?

[Old Celt]

yes there may be many things that niggle about something that we may have liked done slightly differant, but what im saying is that if something else in another product affected it performance/usfulness as much as the A.I. stopping everything and restarting everytime you reload does then you wouldnt let the manafactuer/supplier just fob you off by telling you it was ment to be like that, so why should we here?

You shouldn't. To be quite objective about it, The Shogun's statement never actually uses the word "feature". He rather refers to the AI behavior as "reassessment" several times. My position is that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, calling it a turkey doesn't make it not a duck.

But whatever you call it, we are right to speak up if we believe it hurts the quality of the game. I think there is a severe disconnect on that point. CA doesn't seem to understand that software performance which may not strictly fall into the definition of "bug" is still quite actionable if the public perceives it as a problem or undesireable.

[ToranagaSama]

IMUHO, the proble with CA and its 'Community' could be solved, if CA were to adopt a policy of greater communication and interaction. MORE than exists presently.

THE major problem with RTW is that CA failed to communicate and advise the Community regarding the direction they were taking RTW; and that "direction" was taken WITHOUT sufficient Community involvement!!!

*I* and, quite apparently, MANY others, particularly veterans, were SHOCKED, at what RTW turned out to be. I don't mean this in either a negative or postive, simply the fact of.... NOBODY KNEW!

Nobody knew how dramatically *different* an experience RTW would be in comparision to previous TW versions. Yeah, we saw screenshots of the Campaign Map, but, generally, that was about it! as far as we knew that was the major dramatic difference.

This, imuho, is where the animosity toward CA lies.

Lack of communication and involvement.

In the last decade or two there has been a whole business theory developed upon *Empowering Customers*.

I can't think of another industry, Computer Software, where listening and empowering your customers is more vital toward CONTINUING success.

It wasn't always this way. Gosh, I can remember when Shogn first came out. I had a problem getting the game to run properly (I don't remember the specifics) or something. I believe it had something to do with one of my firewalls or something.

I spoke DIRECTLY with Richie in the Strategy Newsgroup. We went back a forth a few times. He used the same firewall, problem found, problem solved, feedback absorbed. He was a great guy! This was before he worked directly for CA. In the early days, there were lots of such coversations between Org members and CA members.

To my eye, this sort of interaction and involvement has been on a declining course, to the point of who knew about RTW. Offhand, I'd say the devolvement began with the issue of Campaign Multiplay. When CA had problems delivering on that, they went quiet; and, IMO, if we hadn't badgered them they might never have talked to us about the issues.

---

The .com site was created to PROMOTE the game. No other reason. If the site no longer serves that purpose, time to end it; not indulde in censorship.

Additionally, the .com issue, again is one of their own making. From the outset, *they* let that site run wild!!! The manner and style of posting at the .com s/h been reigned in a LONG time ago.

So now they are reaping what they sowed. I would have suggested rather than resort to belated censorship, that they should have shut the site down and created a new one with new policies.

What's that saying, "Sorta like shutting the barn door after the animals have been let out (??)".

---

After having exchanged a couple emails with one of the staff at CA I think the problem is one of lack of communications from CA and the fact that CA can't fix the problem because of Activision. Even if they wanted to distribute another patch I don't think they can. Rome belongs to Activision and I don't think anything will be different until the first game or expansion is released under Sega. If after that happens and CA fails to deliver a decent game or reasonable patches I will abandon CA all together. Till then I will maintain hope that they do GET it but can't do anything other than what they are doing.

Sounds fine, but you know what the problem is?

We, that is we *Veterans*, have heard it allllllll BEFORE!

Before there was Activision, there was (if I recall the company correctly) Sierra, and the same Patch mantra was spoken by CA: "It's not up to us!".

Personally, I'm tired of the same ole song...

Other Developers take a different approach, why can't CA?

Is EVERY developer limited to a single patch?
Have other developers released *unofficial* patches?

[Bel]

Especially when a feature like Load Game does not actually load the game you left but instead ruins the game you left...

[ShellShock]

The usefulness of analogies is limited. Sometimes a thing is simply itself, and not like anything else.

I have another analogy for you.

I buy a DVD of a movie that has received good reviews. When I get it home I find that the disk is scratched and won't play, so I take it back to the shop and they are happy to give me a replacement.

However, once I get it home again and start watching the film, I begin to have doubts. There are some continuity problems that I can put up with - after all most people would not notice them, but the lead actor's supposed English accent is appalling; but he does make the most of his part, so I grudgingly accept that.

However, when the hero and the love interest finally get into space on their rocket ship...ohmigod what is this - the space ship is whizzing around like an aeroplane, and there is an almighty, thunderous explosion when they blow up the alien mothership. This is too much, totally unrealistic and I start an email campaign demanding the studio release a director's cut that is scientifically accurate.

Is this analogy any more helpful?

I often think so-called software engineering is much more an art than a science; the most fun I get out of programming for a living is when I can be creative. As an art, should we not compare software to other arts, and not harder disciplines? In many aspects, a large software game is created in a similar way to a movie, with visuals, audio, motion, animation, branding and marketing.