No Ninjas?

[ramareddy]

On the Japanese Army list I noticed that a Ninja unit was conspicuously absent. Did the BL team leave them out purposefully?

If not, please throw them in the mix.

If so, please allow this poll to stay up, I would like to know what others in the Blue Lotus Community think, no harm can come of it.

Edit: Poll didn't seem to work, that's alright, voice your opinions anyway.

[saulot333]

I read somewhere that Hoggy was not sure to include Ninja on the battlefield...
In fact I pretty much agree with him, a battle was not a ninja's place to be. But I'm sure that if enough people would beg him to add 'em, he'll surely listen to your plead.

[hoggy]

Ninjas will be assassins on the strat map but not battlefield units. Unless there are sufficient people who want them and then we'll add them as mercenaries. Just not sure what good they'd be on a battlefield full of armoured units.

[tai4ji2x]

if you put them on the battlefield, you can make them like they were in STW, or like arcani in RTW - "hide anywhere" attribute.

personally, even though this is a fantasy mod, i'd rather not see them on the battlefield. although i won't object if you put them in after all. ;)

[ramareddy]

I humbly think that sticking ninjas on the battlefield is fantastical...Therefore perfectly suited for Blue Lotus.

Question: So the majority of units in this mod are armored? How did that happen? Won't there balance issues?

Alright, why don't you make Ninjas of armor-piercing unit of twelve ( or 20% of normal sized unit) with good speed, high disciple/moral, the ability to hide anywhere (if you could, even while on the move like in STW), a few hit points, and possibly inspiring fear.

Maybe you can make their special ability some sort of high damage precision strike either with shuriken or katana, either would be cool. The special ability could also be temporary invisibility.

Any other ideas?

Hoggy, you're the bee's knees, by the way.

[blindfaithnogod]

Question: So the majority of units in this mod are armored? How did that happen? Won't there balance issues?

what he means is, most of the units in the game have some sort of armour. whether it be ashigaru, who have very little armour, or no-dachi samurai, which have heavy armour. which would protect them against arrow fire. the ashigaru survive more by numbers than armour. ninja would have to be in small numbers. so if they were caught by archers they would be toast. where as the no-dachi would also have smaller numbers. they would survive archers with their large amounts of armour. which ninja dont have. i hope that made sense.

Alright, why don't you make Ninjas of armor-piercing unit of twelve ( or 20% of normal sized unit) with good speed, high disciple/moral, the ability to hide anywhere (if you could, even while on the move like in STW), a few hit points, and possibly inspiring fear.

hit points would keep them from dieing to quickly from archer fire. but may cause balance issues in melee. all the other things are good ideas.

Maybe you can make their special ability some sort of high damage precision strike either with shuriken or katana, either would be cool. The special ability could also be temporary invisibility.

i dont think those would be possible.

anyway my vote would be for no battlefield ninja. i believe it would just overcrowd the japanese infantry which already exist. there are already plenty of sword and missile units.

[shifty157]

Im for no as well. I never used the battlefield ninjas in STW. When i hear ninja i think assassination not the thick of battle.



but thats just me.

[saulot333]

I vote no on ninjas on the battlefields...for now, at least. Maybe, when Blue Lotus will be out there could be a place for ninjas in a ninjas' lover-patch...

[Sykotyk Rampage]

NINJA LOVE GONE BAD

ya I know I have to much time on my hands.......LOL

[ramareddy]

i dont think those would be possible.

anyway my vote would be for no battlefield ninja. i believe it would just overcrowd the japanese infantry which already exist. there are already plenty of sword and missile units.
- faithnomore

Are there not two Japanese factions? Why can't one of the two offer the Ninjas?

Also, take a gander at the Japanese unit list:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...1&page=1&pp=30

You'll notice that they are the least diverse of the main factions.

They have six swordsmen. Six. Ask yourself guys, how will you use these units uniquely on the battle field? They are all varying degrees of non-armor piercing offensive infantry. Sure, Japan was very sword oriented, but six? I say drop one of them and replace them with a ninja.

If ninjas were included, they would be the third, that's right, the third missile unit available to the Japanese. They would also be the first non-arrow shooting unit.

That being said, they do have a lot of swordsmen, but ninjas don't have to be sword-armed and the Japanese are definetly not overcrowded with missile units.

Im for no as well. I never used the battlefield ninjas in STW. When i hear ninja i think assassination not the thick of battle.
-shifty157


I have two words for you: Water Buffalo. Oh and when I hear "leopard" I think "stalking prey in sub-Saharan Africa" not the thick of battle. Some of these cool units come out of left-field, but we don't care, because it will add to our gaming experience. Likewise, not adding ninjas would simply make the game (and especially the Japanese faction(s)) blander.

If you never used Ninjas in STW, I'm sorry. I would regret that too.

[commieanarko1986]

I think battlefield ninjas would be a good unit to have and allow a variety in battle tactics. I know in S:TW that if I was desperate to get rid of an enemy General or Shogun and I had no chance of taking him out with a regular Ninja I would either send an army with a couple units of ninjas to try to spring an elaborate trap. Otherwise I would just send two units of ninjas into battle with his full stack army and use one to distract his army while I would try to sneak the other around and assassinate him from behind. Granted, such tactics were difficult to make successful, but it allowed me to take battles in a different direction and made for some very interesting gameplay.

Even sometimes in R:TW I have used a similar tactic during campaign games. I will send an army of two cavalry units to battle against an enemy's best full stack generals and use the above tactic to assassinate the leader and then retreat. This tactic, is my desperate tactic when I have no armies in an area that can match such a powerful army and general.

Also, with such a unit it would force players to actually do something with their generals instead of just keeping them at the back.

[blindfaithnogod]

ramaready, dont take it so personal that everyone dosen't agree completely with you. opinions are like assholes everyones got one.

[ramareddy]

I didn't take it personally at all.

I just think the "anti-ninja" side of this argument doesn't have great points, besides hoggy having to do more work ( which is appreciated). In any case, he would add ninjas if there is enough of demand from the BL community, and that's all I am trying to create.

[Lothair]

Ninjas as mercenaries, maybe. Or a region specific unit avaible in one starting province for each of the japanese factions, that would stop them from overflowing the world.

And I see ninjas as someone with throwing knives/stars, great speed and ability to hide anywhere, and with an ability to cause havoc in combat, even against armoured opponents, but only for a short time. After the inital clash, they are dead. Finished. Hacked to pieces.

But yay for battlefield ninjas!

[runes]

i dunno, i dig the ideas of ninjas on the battlefield, so it's not too accurate, but neither are demons and evil zombie bull riders...

they could be a band of like 6-8, very very highly trained (maybe not much armour, but very very good defensive skill) units that could hide anywhere. I could see them as being impervious, or at least very very hard to hit with arrows (think cheesy kung fu movies, dodging and blocking tons of arrows) but i don't know if vs arrows and vs other weapons are two different and independent factors...


they themselves could have a few ranged weapons under their sleeves, maybe able to throw 2 or 3 volleys of shurkien.

[Moros]

ninja's on a battle field come on! truly it sounds ridiculous to me!

[GiantMonkeyMan]

on shogun total war you got battle feild ninjas but they were kinda pointless in a big battle in 'vanilla' total war there were the arcanii (sp?) which ruined a decent battle (i think)
but maybe if someone tested it with battle field ninjas on BL andthey were alrite then we could include them but if they suck then there is no point in including them in battle.....

maybe the chinese should get the Geisha and the japanese the Ninja as an assassin unit on the campaign map? would there be any similar units for other factions though?

[DragoonXXIV]

Well if you already are going to have hero units, which are small but powerful, then maybe you can add a ninja hero unit later. Maybe make it a mercenary hero. Either way you choose to go, i think the most important thing is finishing what you've already decided on, then you can work on additions.

[Moros]

maybe the chinese should get the Geisha and the japanese the Ninja as an assassin unit on the campaign map? would there be any similar units for other factions though?

Ninjas instaed of assasins looks like a better solution to me.
yeah Ithink they should do it like that!

[ramareddy]

Gert:

Ninjas ARE ALREADY going to be assassins on the strategic map. We are specifically talking about them in the context of the battle map.

GiantMonkeyMan:
Geishas are not Chinese.

Hoggy:
Will the ninjas on the strategic map be uber-assassins, or is it just a skin?

[runes]

it's not possible to have faction specific/unique assassains? (like some factions having better/worse assassains/spies/diplomats)

[GiantMonkeyMan]

i watched this movie and it had a chinese geisha but... if you say so

you can have different faction assasins cos each faction has a different skin for their diplomats, spies and assasins you could maybe change each one the only problem is it is weird how they are positioned when you open it in photoshop....

[Temple]

Umm. He's right. Geisha are uniquely japanese.. Make-up, however, isn't.. Which, in addition to the fact that it was a movie, would exdplain your chinses movie Geisha.. Just a thought.

Also, I have reviewed the japanese unit list, and I can only find 4 sword units..

[tai4ji2x]

you claim that there are chinese geishas simply by citing a MOVIE?!?!

[ramareddy]

Temple:

Samurai Infantry
Samurai Heavy Infantry (No Dachi)
Elite Swordsmen
Kamikaze
Hero Ronin
Hero: Tomoe Gozen

[SJRlunchbox]

ninja's on a battle field come on! truly it sounds ridiculous to me!

Yeah, just as rediculous as Demons!
Wait a second....

If Ninja do go into the mod, my personal belief is that they would add to it's atmosphere. Though their stats could be difficult. My thoughts would be giving them a decent attack and high charge bonus (representing their sudden attack), good defensive skill, no armour, and a high shield bonus. (No, I'm not mad, and I don't want the Ninjas to have shields. I figure the shield bonus would give them a good defense against missile attacks coming from ahead, representing them dodging the attack)

[GiantMonkeyMan]

ok ok i know nothing of geishas....
but i do know that in a battle a group of around 50 ninja killed up to a thousand samari so they were used in battle (although i think this was exaggerated) if they are included it will be ok they aren't as unrealistic as demons plus it would give the japanese an edge that no other faction has

[shifty157]

Perhaps one of the japanese hero units could be replaced with a battlefield ninja unit? That would keep the current power level by just replacing one elite unit with another while still giving the japanese their battlefield ninjas.

Just a thought that might please everyone.

[DragoonXXIV]

To reiterate my opinion. Why not have the ninjas be mercenary heroes? All the factions have a hero unit or two, why not a mercenary hero, since ninjas are mercenaries in nature? Also, why don't we quibble about what to add AFTER hoggy and the team finish what's already planned.

[shifty157]

Also, why don't we quibble about what to add AFTER hoggy and the team finish what's already planned.

Well stated.