For all veterans of STW and MTW if you wander here by

[Jochi Khan]

[QUOTE=Puzz3D]That's right, and it's a direct result of the gameplay which couldn't be properly evaluated until the RTW v1.2 patch.

I believe it would be fairer to say that it means new-comers and 'vets' were all starting on a level playing field with no skills advantage gained from previous games.
A TW game that is different from what all are used to.

[QUOTE=Puzz3D] The units in Samurai Wars are balanced, and the upgrade system only plays a minimal role. So, it's pretty hard to find exploits in Samurai Wars.

So this should have been the answer to MPer's expectations?
And here again, all have left. Why?

Jochi

[bodidley]

Bodidely, if you compare SP to MP and you belive that MP is good then you are mistaken.
SP is great comparing to MP. That is why I've posted this post. Read the first post.
It is for all MP players since STW and MTW, who insisted playing MP part of TW till now and many gave left.
MP is what TW is all about here, becaus of personalities of people which made TW series so unique.
If multiplayer part of RTW would be so good made as single player part is then many would stay and continue to play and this and many other forums would be more alive as the are at the moment.
I'm dissapointed over the matter what attitude particulare people have. But we shall not forget that we life in life capitalism.
If we would pay this company to improve things which we would like to see, well then this would be already done.

Yes I understand your point, and I am not saying that MP is great. I am saying that there are problems with the game beyond the community. There are serious flaws in the game itself. While there are certainly childish brats running around, usually, especially if you host a game, people will play by fair and honorable standards; Jackasses are something we have to deal with in life.

[Loinnreach]

It is possible to have a good battle in RTW despite all the claims to the contrary.

You are right Orda. With few rules RTW is playable on 1v1 and team battles are even more interesting.

- 5 max units per same type
- no egypt (or banned desert cavalry unit if you have interest to play wiht or against)
- max 8 cavalry units of all types (including chariots, ele, etc)
- if you allow artillery, you don't allow fire.

One major thing which changed tactics in RTW from MTW. Artillery is important part here and I don't blame someone if he use one uinit of ballistas or scorpions, or even onagers - just no fire option.

Despite few critis on RTW I posted many to defend it. (mainly on totalwars.net)

But you all know what happened. People want things on their table. They even hardly move their fingers to change something.

As already mentioned:

A community we know back then has changed. Partly because of RTW as a game with many issues which needed to be solved and mainly because of people hesitation. That period of a few months waiting is what killed the TW MP community.Unfortunately the community let the newcomers takeover and make this the dominant game style. While they complained and waited for patches a new community was formed and the old vets had nothing to go back to.

This is the main reason why situation is as it is. (by the way this are words of respected TW player you all know very well)

People haven't done nothing. For them I've started this topic thought. (and partly for the issue of RTW)

They didn't want to ''learn'' from the start. Look Kanuni for example. He was great in MTW and he is still now. (no matter what the rules are)

If at least lobby would be as it was in MTW/VI. The lack of this only accelerate all things which happened later on.

Well there is CWC, TWPL, WCC and few other tourneys. Let us hope that BI expansion pack will bring changes.

VorCid

[Puzz3D]

Let us hope that BI expansion pack will bring changes.

It certainly doesn't look like any significant changes are going to be made in BI. I wonder what kind of ineffective anti-cav unit CA has come up with for BI. Most likely movement and combat resolution speed will remain the same as will the brilliant "delay to orders" feature.

Realize that CA's position on desert cav is that they are not overpowered. If they can't see how that unit is out of balance, what chance is there of getting improved overall unit balance in BI? I would say no chance.

[buujin]

...

[Hunter KIng George]

What happen to the simple things...MTW/VI only no art allowed is the norm for rules...in RTW you have...no art, no fire, no eleph, 5 max , no egypt....and so on and on it's obviously the game, not the community. The problem started form the game not the community. We do have our rude peeps no matter where youre at, just Rome has so many as everyone knows, but I'm sure it will change...people change, but the game probably won't. All I have is hope that the new BI expansion will fix some of the flaws, I know no game will ever be perfect especially so many have different opinions of what should be fixed, it is a never ending dilemma. I am not a vet of the TW games and like many others I wish I was around during those times. I was lucky to get a brief taste of how those times were (much fun) hopefully those times will return....Win or Lose, Hunter King George

[Orda Khan]

it's obviously the game, not the community. The problem started form the game not the community.

You are missing the point I am trying to make. The game does not make players pick the exploits. The players do this on their own. So RTW is not perfect, I'll admit that and neither was MTW when it first arrived nor in its final state and neither was STW before that. The sad fact is that there are those who concientiously look for and exploit any flaw within the game to their advantage. That is what ruins the game, it is possible to play around flaws in the game

.......Orda

[Lord Adherbal]

The game does not make players pick the exploits. The players do this on their own.

of course, but you can't blame them. Games are supposed to be competitive, so it's obvious players try to find the most effective ways to win. If you have to stop players from doing things the game allows then something is very wrong.
I played the Age of Empires/Mythology games for years and all sorts of exploits turned up too, but Ensemble Studios fixed them as soon as they could in the next patch. Wonder why ES's games are the most succesfull RTS games next to Blizzard's (which are also MP oriented), and CA's are not...

[Orda Khan]

That's like saying you can't blame athletes for using steroids

....Orda

[Loinnreach]

I agree with Orda.

That is why rules are needed on tourneys and competitions.(talking overall)

[Mongoose]

"That's like saying you can't blame athletes for using steroids"


I know...but alot of the issues right now are fairly easy to fix. If ca released an MP patch that would:

1:weaken cavalry so they cant beat spear units head on.
2:nerf dessert cavalry
3:raise the cost of egyptian units
4:raise the cost of urban chorts
5:raise the cost of roman heavy cavalry units
6: make it harder for units to run through a phalanx
7:use cost penalties spaming one unit

just those changes would improve the game alot. Heck, that could be done in a simple balancing mod...

[Puzz3D]

"That's like saying you can't blame athletes for using steroids"


And just how am I supposed to not use the jumping horse exploit or the 50% faster running exploit or the fast combat resolution exploit or the no penalty for overlapped units exploit or the cavalry beats phalanx exploit or the units won't shoot until every last man is in position exploit?

[Orda Khan]

You are missing the point I am trying to make. The game does not make players pick the exploits. The players do this on their own. So RTW is not perfect, I'll admit that and neither was MTW when it first arrived nor in its final state and neither was STW before that. The sad fact is that there are those who concientiously look for and exploit any flaw within the game to their advantage. That is what ruins the game, it is possible to play around flaws in the game

.......Orda

[kongxinga]

I am a SP Shogun Vet and and MTW:VI MP vet, and am a long time lurker of these boards. I have not bought RTW yet due to the now realized fears of CA making it mass marketed and including lots of Lord of The rings disobey physics charges to attract crowds.

THe MTW war was one of the nicest online game lobbies ever. Everyone was surprisingly polite and willing to help noobs. I played exclusively Egypt in MTW, as I found all the Catholic Knights and Chivalry stuff, stuffy.

Which led to me being smacked time and time again. My guards will disintegrate in 30 seconds after impacting the CMAA line, and my cavalry did not fare better against their knights. I recall once one of my younger relatives was watching a game, and when she saw the Abyssinian guards die like that, she shouted out "Racist!".

So I went back to the boards, and discovered guides that show conclusively that CMAA spam will win all. I also discovered the ramping upgrade costs thing. So while my V4 Guards will barely match your V3 CMAA, they will be much more expensive. Did I switch to the Euros? NO! Islamic Countries could become more competitive by removing the ramping costs bug, but Idecide to stick to my guns.

After lots of losses, I managed to be able to utilize the Islamic potential to its fullest, and exploit many of the Euros weaknesses and start to be able to beat the Euros on their own turf (Lush Spring. Seems they are too chicken to fight in the desert or even arid). The day when someone asked me "Surely you are an expert smurfing. Who are you? I've never seen anyone play Egypt like that." was one of my best gaming days.

I still get my share off losses against Euros (most Euro allies dont coordinate properly for me to be able to employ me army), but it has been a fun journey. The point of which is to say, despite all the imbalances in MTW, it has been fun. THe imbalances can be countered to a extent. There is nothing like wiping the Euros with an Islamic army off their lush green plains(no hills even. I rarely see hills as it does not suit the CMAA) as if that happened in real life, you probably have conquered their homeland.

My second point is, is it like that in RTW? I am aware of the mainstream noobs in the lobby problem, but are the imbalances as bad as they seem? Can a TW vet overcome a noob exploiting imbalances and beat him back to the so called RTS called Warcraft 3? Despite the noobs, is the online lobby as civilized as the MTW one? Ironic how most Euro players loved to see an EGGY opponent in MTW , yet in RTW it seems they are the most powerful and the faction that is disallowed.

Sigh. I wish my Guards were as good as the bullet proof barebreasted desert axemen.

[Lord Adherbal]

well I haven't played RTW enough to really judge it (enough to conclude I don't like the unit balances tho), but when I hear people speaking about countering your opponent on FACTION level I think some is very wrong (again).

PS: I haven't given up on the RTW engine tho, I'm making this MP oriented "Chivalry Total War" mod for a reason :)

[Loinnreach]

I can give my word here. Adherbald Chivalry mod is worth of all the time you will spent with it.