Tech trees

[Archbaker]

I don't think it's a bastard sword - it's too long. I'm sure you've heard of a hand-a-half sword, right? That handle's way too big.

I notice that now.

I started reading discussions about this a few years back, and I came to the conclusion that nobody knows exactly what a bastard sword is. You don't become a weapons expert from lurking on message boards, but to the best of knowledge it could mean:

- Any longsword

- A sword useable in one or two hands (which is also true for some longswords)

- A 1 1/2-handed longsword hung from the saddle

- A longsword that tapers toward the end

However, museums use the term about swords with certain Oakeshott numbers, and the handle on the picture is too long for it to be called a bastard sword by most standards.

At least we've established that these terms are ambiguous

[GoreBag]

At least we've established that these terms are ambiguous

Well, they're called "bastards" for a reason, I guess.

[Ranika]

Of ships, what are planned?

Also, on structures; Gaels, Saxons, and the Welsh all had fairly large schools after the introduction of Christianity. They were mainly outcroppings of monastaries though, as they were all run by the church; students would spend some months or even years at them being educated, in hermitage. If it were possible to have an upgrade of monastaries to a 'hermetic school' of some sort, that'd be nice, since it'd be different than 'academies', and display a different type of development in educational systems in the region; it is appropriate they have some teaching structure though, they weren't an uncommon feature of the region. Further, the lack of much the region can build makes it seems backward, which isn't true at all; the isles were more developed than large chunks of Europe because it hadn't been ransacked by invaders until the vikings (discluding Saxons and the like; they didn't really destroy overmuch, more just conquered it), and even the vikings only tended to decimate small regions, rather than the huge swaths of lands the barbarian invasions did to Europe. While, ultimately, Europe would overcome the region in terms of development, at its outset, Britain and Ireland were centers of Christian learning and enlightenment; it seems unusual they don't have schooling or similar structures.

[Ranika]

Bumping this out of sake of pointing out that Gaels/Welsh/Saxons lacking schools is incorrect, and that a fair solution to differentiate them from the rest of Europe is by having their schools as upgrades of monastaries (since they were almost invariably run by monks and nuns). Such places were the places of scribes, such as where the Book of Kells was produced, and also rather extensive schools where even lay members of society could be educated, and most aristocracy sent their children (at least in Gaelic society) to be better educated.

[edyzmedieval]

Oh, guys.

Regarding Bulgaria, they had Pagan Shrines also.
Our researcher says that the main god is Tangra.

Thought you'd like to know about it, cuz you said you need help with Bulgars.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Yeah, thanks. We're planning a change of many tech trees in order to include many of the new BI features properly. Bulgars and other who converted during the period will have the option to choose between religions and so on. The magyar tech tree will, when ready, depend much on the conversion, but units will still mostly be the same.

[The Stranger]

does that means you guys are going to mess with the units to...and can some one send me the exp_descr_unit.txt so i can see wich new features are added so i can change that

[Rodion Romanovich]

The units file will remain pretty much the same.

This is what export_descr_units says:

;Data entries are as follows
; Type The internal name of the unit. Note this not necessarily the same as the on screen name
; dictionary The tag used to look up the on screen name
;
;Category and class define the rough type of the unit. They're used for setting some default attributes and for
;determining where units go in formation amongst other things such as tags to support AI army formation
; category infantry, cavalry, siege, handler, ship or non_combatant
; class light, heavy, missile or spearmen
;
; voice_type Used to determine the type of voice used by the unit
;
; soldier Name of the soldier model to use (from descr_models_battle.txt)
; followed by the number of ordinary soldiers in the unit
; followed by the number of extras (pigs dogs, elephants, chariots artillery pieces etc attached to the unit)
; followed by the collision mass of the men. 1.0 is normal. [Only applies to infantry]
; officer Name of officer model. There may be up to 0-3 officer lines per unit
; ship Type of ship used if applicable
; engine Type of siege engine used by unit
; animal The type of (non ridden) animals used by the unit
; mount Type of animal or vehicle ridden on
;
; mount_effect Factors to add when in combat against enemy units that have the specified mounts
; Up to three factors may be specified, which may be classes of mount, or specific types
;
; attributes A miscellanious list of attributes and abilities the unit may have. Including
; sea_faring = can board ships; can_swim = can swim across rivers
; hide_forest, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, hide_anywhere = defines where the unit can hide
; can_sap = Can dig tunnels under walls
; frighten_foot, frighten_mounted = Cause fear to certain nearby unit types
; can_run_amok = Unit may go out of control when riders lose control of animals
; general_unit = The unit can be used for a named character's bodyguard
; cantabrian_circle = The unit has this special ability
; no_custom = The unit may not be selected in custom battles
; command = The unit carries a legionary eagle, and gives bonuses to nearby units
; mercenary_unit = The unit is s mercenary unit available to all factions
;
; formation soldier spacing (in metres) side to side, then front to back for close formation
; followed by the same measurements in loose formation.
; followed by the default number of ranks for the unit
; followed by the formations possible for the unit. One or two of
; square, horde, schiltrom, shield_wall, phalanx, testudo, or wedge
;
; stat_health Hit points of man, followed by hit points of mount or attached animal (if applicable)
; Ridden horses and camels do not have separate hit points
;
;Details of unit's primary weapon. If the unit has a missile weapon it must be the primary
; stat_pri From left to right
; attack factor
; attack bonus factor if charging
; missile type fired (no if not a missile weapon type)
; range of missile
; amount of missile ammunition per man
; Weapon type = melee, thrown, missile, or siege_missile
; Tech type = simple, other, blade, archery or siege
; Damage type = piercing, blunt, slashing or fire. (I don't think this is used anymore)
; Sound type when weapon hits = none, knife, mace, axe, sword, or spear
; Min delay between attacks (in 1/10th of a second)
; stat_pri_attr
; primary weapon attributes any or all of
; ap = armour piercing. Only counts half of target's armour
; bp = body piercing. Missile can pass through men and hit those behind
; spear = Used for long spears. Gives bonuses fighting cavalry, and penalties against infantry
; long_pike = Use very long pikes. Phalanx capable units only
; short_pike = Use shorter than normal spears.
; prec = Missile weapon is only thrown/ fired just before charging into combat
; thrown = The missile type if thrown rather than fired
; launching = attack may throw target men into the air
; area = attack affects an area, not just one man
; spear & light_spear = The unit when braced has various protecting mechanisms versus cavalry charges from the front
; spear_bonus_x = attack bonus against cavalry. x = 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 or 12
;
;Details of secondary weapons. If the unit rides on, or has attached animals or vehicles
;then the secondary weapon details refer to their attacks. If the unit has missile weapons
;the secondary weapon will be the one used for melee
;If the unit has a primary melee weapon, it may have a secondary side arm
; stat_sec As per stat_pri (a value of no means no secondary weapon)
; stat_sec_attr As per stat_pri_attr
;
; stat_pri_armour Details of the man's defences
; armour factor
; defensive skill factor (not used when shot at)
; shield factor (only used for attacks from the front of left)
; sound type when hit = flesh, leather, or metal
;
; stat_sec_armour Details of animal's or vehicle's defenses (note riden horses do not have a separate defence)
; As per stat_pri_armour, except that the shield entry is ommited
;
; stat_heat Extra fatigue suffered by the unit in hot climates
;
; stat_ground Combat modifiers on different ground types. From left to right
; scrub, sand, forest, snow
; stat_mental The base morale level, followed by discipline and training
; discipline may be normal, low, disciplined or impetuous. Impetuous units may charge without orders
; training determines how tidy the unit's formation is. Discipline the response to morale SHOCKS
;
; stat_charge_distance Distance from the enemy that the unit will begin charging
; stat_fire_delay Extra delay over that imposed by animation, hetween volleys
;
; stat_food No longer used
; stat_cost Number of turns to build,
; Cost of unit to construct
; Cost of upkeep
; Cost of upgrading weapons
; Cost of upgrading armour
; Cost for custom battles
; stat_ownership List of factions and cultures that may have this unit

[The Stranger]

can you give me one unit as example

and explain the difference between these

schiltrom, shield_wall, phalanx

[Rodion Romanovich]

Schiltrom is not going to be used. shield_wall is a defensive formation where units with big shields go close together but they can't move when using the formation - it will be used by all units named something with huscarles or houscarles, for all others it's not yet planned. Phalanx will be used by the better spearmen, most of them should have a note in the tech tree about having phalanx formation if they have it.

Example 1 (note is_peasant attribute, which there's no explanation to ???! I wonder what it does... ):

type western peasant alemanni
dictionary western_peasant_alemanni ; Barbarian Peasants
category infantry
class light
voice_type Light_1
soldier western_peasant, 60, 0, 0.8
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_swim, is_peasant
formation 1.2, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 6, horde
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 2, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.73
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 0, 5, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 1, -2, 3, 2
stat_mental 1, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 72, 14, 20, 30, 80
ownership slave, alemanni, lombardi, burgundii


Example 2:

type levy spearman frank
dictionary levy_spearman_frank ; Levy Spearmen
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Light_1
soldier levy_spearman_barbarian, 60, 0, 1.1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 4, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 11, 4, javelin, 50, 3, thrown, archery, piercing, spear, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 7, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.73
stat_sec_attr light_spear, spear_bonus_4
stat_pri_armour 2, 5, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 2, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 1, -2, 3, 2
stat_mental 5, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 333, 115, 40, 60, 370
ownership slave, franks

The sm_factions.txt file determines which units are horde units on the campaign map, so don't worry about that. But all units that we might want to make a horde of should have the can_horde attribute. So do can_horde attribute for all non-Christian cavalry units belonging to magyars, and all horse units and levy foot units for khazars and bulgars.

[The Stranger]

thanx...i'll add the shieldwall later...since i dunno for wich they really go for...and you really must decide bout the weapons layout...cuz that i can change the units to the final stage

[Rodion Romanovich]

Aren't we using your weapons layout already? Or what is it you are missing? More detailed info about the units?

Note I edited the last three lines of my post above.

[The Stranger]

yeah i know but mine doest covers all...someone posted a other wich covered the part i'm missing (attack values) do i have permission to use that

[Rodion Romanovich]

I don't remember what it said about attack values... IMO it's best if you choose what you think seems like the best stats, and we'll then adjust them during the testing phase if they turn out bad.

[The Stranger]

consider it done

[Nacheras]

Here are some building in Al-Andalus

- Dar assikka: coin factory
- Kaisariya: Great Bazaar.
- Madrassa: school. Similar to academy of RTW.
- Madinat: Palace
- Aswak: commercial suburb
- Mosque. Not only religious building but also superior school and library.
- Kantara: aqueduct

The coin was the dinar

Good farmer development, similar to bizantinum and superior to frankish or asturican. Andalusies inherited and improved latifundia roman system.
Excellent trade development, also ports and roads. Roads are similar to the roman higways in quality and were places at the same places.

Mines were underexploted to roman times: roman wasted most of mineral resources of Sapin, and arabs were unexpert at this area. Gold near Toledo, Silver at Murcia and Corduba, Mercury at Corduba. Iron north of Sevilla. Tin at Algarve (south coast of Portugal).

[Nacheras]

Here I post you an Asturias tech tree.

First of all, I put you the names in English and latin. My English is bad, but my latin is worse, so please correct the names in right manner.

Feel free to choose those names and buildings you find suitable.

1) Governor´s building. I don´t know if have decided having a unique tree of governor´s building for all Christian European kingdoms. If you have not decided yet, here I post a trial asturian governor house tree: maiorii domus (headhouse), civitas curia (council seat), comites domus (county house), duces palatii (duke palace), rex palatii (royal palace), Aula Regia (capital royal court).

2) Military buildings: I have not found anything about military buildings in that times. There were not “quarters” concept in dark ages. You can use the Frankish kingdoms tech trees for infantry, cavalry or bowmen

3) Farmer development: Asturian economy relied on farmer. You can use a tech tree very similar to RTW-BI, but remember the asturians did not used the irrigation, so they should be 1 step under the andalusian farmer development.

4) Roads: I think the word “paved road” for asturican ways is very, very kindly. In fact asturians ways were less more than animal paths. In part due to there were not important roman highways in asturian historical territory, but also because of the lack of interest of asturians on communications. Itis (path)- via (land road)- strata (paved road- this one only in highly developed provinces). Forget about highways.

5) Public health structures. This is a remote concept for north Spanish Christians at 843 AD. Probably you can put latrina (privy)- cloaca (open sewer). For very developed towns you can put publicus fontus (public fountain) related with you have a rare example here (Oviedo):

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/acabiedes/3.htm

Nothing about aqueducts, that were present at andalusian developed provinces. I think is more realistic if you decrease the importance of squalor in public order or happiness. Focus on religious buildings, that really had importance those days in order to improve the happiness of people!

6) Market. Asturian trade were mainly inferior to andalusian, and near of Frankish kingdoms. Most of the trade was made by barter. Were used old gothic, andalusian an frank coins in little importance (actually only for taxes). Around X century was adopted Frankish silver system, but it still lasted many years to spread use of coins. Mercatus (market)- forum (great market)- merkatus de rege (royal town market. This one is the only historically I´ve founded).

7) Religious buildings: Good resume at RTW-BI, you can use in the same way (improve Christian conversion, improves happiness and public order). Sacellum (shrine)- Hermitage (I don´t know its latin name)- ecclesia (church)- cathedra (cathedral). Remember the cathedrals used to be also scriptorium (libraries), so they can serve (in little) as the roman scriptorium of RTW: dishmish corruption and improves administration.
The other religious tree could be convent- monastery- abbey (I did not found its latin names). Monastic buildings did play a important role on asturian life. They were centres of Christian irradiation, study and wealth. They were important land owners, so you can add to its Christian role, an improve to farmer production i.e. Please, don´t recruit any monk or priest military unit as in BI! Priest or monks were not fighters in dark ages.


Some examples of asturican buildings (mainly churches and abbeys):

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/acabiedes/1.htm

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/acabiedes/2.htm

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/acabiedes/4.htm

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/acabiedes/5.htm

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/acabiedes/6.htm

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/acabiedes/7.htm

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/acabiedes/8.htm

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/acabiedes/9.htm

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/acabiedes/10.htm

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/acabiedes/11.htm

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/acabiedes/12.htm

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/acabiedes/13.htm

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/acabiedes/14.htm

Great link of architect art at Asturias. If you explore on sub-links you will find all kind of Spanish romanic buildings:

http://www.arteguias.com/prerromanico_asturias.htm

It does not conserve any civil building of IX-XI centuries, but you can assume its appearance were not very different to asturian religious buildings or to Frankish civil buildings.

And finally, in Spanish “reconquista” castles were very, very important, due to the irregular Spanish geography. Castles were places at strategic points in mountains or river crosses, and provided factions (asturians and andalusians) of safely borders. That role is played in RTW by the forts. I think you can translate this concept to castles. The only difference should be its bigger cost, and that they don´t disappear if there´s not any unit inside. I don´t know if this is technically possible, but it should be a terrific approach to historic reality.

[skeletor]

Thnx..

I havent really looked in to the forts yet, and i'm not sure if it's possible to have diffrent forts for diffrent cultures. If so, you wil surely see some nice fortifications. I allso think that the way the forts dissapear is hardcoded, but wat's the use of an uninhabited fort anyway..

-Skel-

[Meneldil]

There might be different forts for different cultures, but they will disappear once emptied (that's hardcoded)

[skeletor]

Yup, i checked it out now. you have atleas 3 forts to choose between, and i think we can add custom forts for each culture.

-SKel-

[ScionTheWorm]

bump (tired of using the "display options")

[Meneldil]

Of ships, what are planned?

I take it you have an idea about what kind of ships might be available to gaels ?

[Ranika]

Yes, but I'm also curious about what's planned, so I can make what ships the Gaels get more appropriate. There are a few types of ships they used prior to the Norse invasions, like curragh (actually just hide/leather over a wood frame, but they did use them for transport) or langa (large wood ships for transporting many supplies or men and used by pirates) and others.

[Nacheras]

Andalusian tech tree

1) Governor´s building. Al-Kasr (palace), As-Zahra (great palace).

2) Wall

3) entertainment buildings. Ar-Russafa (garden), Munyat an-Naura (large garden)

4) quarters. I don´t know if you are going to use the AoR of RTR mod, to represent the progresive colonization of a territory. If you do something like that, I suggest create a specific building to recruit berber units. berbers were not exactly mercenaries (even they could be recruited as that). Many of them installed at Al-Andalus as military settlers, but only in some parts of Al-Andalus . IMO only that provinces with this (or these) special building/buildings should be able to recruit berber units. At the beggining of game berbers were settled at Tolaitola, Batalyas and Gharnata.

5) roads: same ways of roman "vias"

6) port

7) market: Important development of trade, mainly at south and east provinces. Basaar-little market, suk-medium market, kaisariya-big market, aswak-trading suburb (great market). Linen textiles at Sarakusta, silk textiles at Qurtuba, furs at Sarakusta. Jewels at Qurtuba, tiles at Sarakusta and Gharnata. Glass at Qurtuba. paper at Balansiya. Slaves at Ixbila, Qurtuba, Gharnata and Balansiya

8) agriculture: Great development of agriculture, mainly at south and east provinces. Al-Andalus were rightly called "the garden of Islam" by some arab poets. sakiya-irrigation.
Wheat at Ixbila, Batalyas, Qurtuba, Mursiya, Tolaitola, Balansiya and Sarakusta. Olive at Ixbila, Qurtuba, Mursiya, Gharnata. Goats at Ixbila and Qurtuba. Vegetables at Balansiya and Mursiya. Fruits at Batalyas, Ixbila, Qurtuba, Tolaitola, Balansiya, Gharnata and Mursiya. Wood at Balansiya. Rice at Balansiya. Sugar cane at Balansiya, Gharnata and Mursiya. Vineyard (and, yes, wine!) at Gharnata, Qurtuba, Balansiya, Sarakusta. Linen at Gharnata, Cotton at Ixbila. Silk at Mursiya and Gharnata.

9) blacksmith

10) health buildings. The arabs brought to Spain the refinated healthy buildings that found at bizantine territories that conquered. Al-kantara: aqueduct.

11) religious buildings. Mosque, of course (masgid). Great Mosque (Masgid Al-Gami). You can copy the same tech tree for abbasid caliphate.

12) Public security buildings: Darrab (Gate gurad), shurta sugra (police station)

13) mining: less importance than in roman times. Andalusians were not good miners. al-madan: mine. Gold in Tolaitola, silver at Mursiya and Qurtuba, iron at Ixbila, Mercury at Qurtuba, Tin at Bathalyas, lead at Qurtuba. Marbre at Gharnata and Mursiyya

14) administration buildings (scriptorium-like buildings): madrassa (school), Fikh (facultry of Law and Teology)

Caliph: Amir Al-muminin. Banner: ukda. Regiment: alam. Castle: Al-Kazab.

Ancillaires: hachib (first ministry), Wazir (ministry), katib (secretary of caliph), musrif (customs tax inspector), sahib as sikka (director of the House of Coins), cadi aljamaa (head of all judges of caliphate), akim (local head of judges), cadi (judge), udul (notary), mutashib (market inspector), sahib al-madina (local prefect), sahib al-shurta (local police chief), sahib al-mazalim (equal to roman censor).

I will continue searching and post more edits if I find

EDITED 23/01/2006

[Archbaker]

3) entertainment buildings. No exists at Al-Andalus that type of buildings.

I realise you are probably tired of hearing me say this, but wouldn't gardens count as entertainment buildings and didn't they have those?

[Nacheras]

Of course I´m not tired of reading you

Yes, the andalusians had public gardens, and if you consider that entertainment building, then yes, they had entertainment buildings.

I was thinking about theatres, hippodromes or tournements, that were banned by Al-Quram

[Archbaker]

:) I was just thinking it would be a possibility if balance issues meant they needed an entertainment building. And since your buildings seem to only improve Order through Law and Health, I imagine that some providing Happiness would be useful.
But nothing that allows games to be held, then.