OiM Balcan factions

[Dromikaites]

1598-1605 Báthory Endre
1598-1605 Mihály vajda - he was Romanian and seized the throne for half a year through treachery after civil war

The accurate period of time for Mihai Viteazul's rule over Transylvania (the Romanian name for Mihaly Vajda) is 1599 - 1601. He ruled over Wallachia from 1593 to 1601, over Wallachia and Transylvania from 1599 to 1601 and over Wallachia, Transylvania and Moldova from 1600 to 1601. But since the fact he ruled over the 3 countries cannot be portrayed in any way in the mod, the closest thing to historical accuracy would be to have him rule Wallachia and let Transylvania ruled by the Bathory family. He'll rule over the 3 countries in the mod if Wallachia manages to conquer them in the game :)

As for Bathory Endre, he got killed in 1599 by the Szekelys while he was trying to escape to Moldova.

As for how Michael the Brave/Mihai Viteazul/Mihaly vajda got to rule Transylvania, I'd disagree with Forgus' version. The Wallachian king was at war with the Turks and the new Transylvanian prince Bathory Endre although originally a cardinal from Poland wanted to side with the Ottomans.

Before going too quickly to label Bathory Endre a traitor to the Christian cause I'd like to point out that the Christianity at that time was divided over the issue of fighting the Ottomans. The Austrians, the Spaniards and some Italian states were at war with the Ottomans while England and Poland were their allies. England was supporting the Ottoman Empire because of its rivalry with Spain and Poland because its rivalry with Austria. So when Bathory Endre got the Transylvanian throne comming from Poland, he only followed the Polish foreign policy.

Back to the original story of how Michael the Brave got Transylvania. Wallachia was allied to Austria and so had been Transylvania under the previous prince, Bathory Zsigmond (Bathory Endre's cousin). When the anti-Ottoman prince was replaced by a pro-Ottoman one, Michael understood he had a big problem on his hands. Bathory Endre was not exactly a skillful ruler and he managed to alienate quite a lot of the Transylvanian noblemen and, what was even worse, the Szekelys. The Szekelys are a Hungarian-speaking population (interestingly enough, of turkic origin) who at that time enjoyed a large autonomy in Transylvania and who were contributing with troops representing 20% to 30% of the Transylvanian army in case of war. Bathory Endre tried to curtail some of the Szekelys' autonomy and had their most important leaders killed. So the Szekelys' stance changed from allies to rebels at the worst moment for the Transylvanian prince.

The Wallachian armies crossed the Transylvanian border from two directions (south and south-east), taking Bathory Endre by surprise. The southern Wallachian force effectively cut off the western Transylvania from the rest and was threatening the capitol city of Alba Iulia. The other army, comming from south-east, prevented the Transylvanians from receiving any help from Polish-controlled Moldova. The Szekelys, who lived in a territory situated at the Transylvanian border with Moldova kept some of their forces guarding the mountain passes to prevent a Moldo-Polish intervention and joined the rest of their army to the Wallachians. The 2 Wallachian armies met near Sibiu/Hermanstadt and there came also the Transylvanians.

Sibiu/Hermanstadt was an autonomous German city nominaly under Transylvanian rule which in reality functioned like a merchant republic. The German merchants considered it is better for their business to sit and watch the battle without interfering. The Transylvanian army even though not at its full strenght (because the western troops could not join and the Szekelys were on the Wallachian side) was slightly larger (30,000 against the 25,000 Wallachians) and looked better equipped (Hungarian and Polish knights, slightly more artilery and firearms) so just as an extra insurance policy the merchants of Hermanstadt allowed a very small detachment of volunteers to join the Transylvanian army. If Michael would be victorious they'll point out that most of their force stayed within the city walls and that only some hot-headed citizens disobeyed the order of the city council. If the Transylvanians would win, the rest of the troops would probably cut the retreat of the Wallachians.

The battle started well for the Transylvanians who were also fighting on favorable ground (they have taken position on elevated ground). The first Wallachian attack was pushed back by the gunfire and the charge of the knights and degenerated in a rout which stopped only because of the personal intervention of Michael. For some unknown reason Bathory Andras refused to commit his reserves to the battle when the Transylvanians still had the advantage. Seeing that some of the Transylvanian noblemen accused him of cowardice and subsequently ordered their troops to stay away from the battle. Thus the cardinal was deprived of most of his light cavalry and the Szekely foot which had previously joined the Transylvanian army.

The Wallachian counterattack immediately after their rout probably caught the Transylvanians by surprise. Many of the Transylvanian troops had left their advantageous positions while chasing the Wallachians. To make the matter worse, Bathory Andras panicked and left the battlefield in a hurry once he saw Michael leading the charge stright in his direction. Seeing him flee made the Polish heavy cavalry decide they don't have to die for a coward leader so they regrouped and took a passive stance away from the thick of the battle. The Hungarian heavy cavalry soon followed their example. Once the knights made very clear they don't want to fight anymore and seeing that part of the Transylvanian army was ostensibly not fighting, the rest of the troops surrendered. Michael ordered his troops to refrain from slaughtering those who had thrown down their arms because he needed the Transylvanian army to fight against the Ottomans.

Why did the Transylvanians behave like that on the battlefield? Probably a lot has to do with the pro-Ottoman policy of Bathory Andras. It also has to do with the cardinal's personality flaws which made the noblemen deeply distrust and despise him. In addition to that many noblemen were protestant and they were put off by the overly-catholic cardinal. It also had to do with the fact that at the time nationality didn't really matter so there was no reason for the Transylvanian noblemen to prefer a Hungaro-Polish with serious attitude problems who was also pro-Ottoman over a Romanian who was an inspirational leader and had fought successfully against the Ottomans.

[Forgus]

Romanians and Hungarians don't get very well, you know

For the PMTW period, they were Hungarians and had the Hungarian army type. But Cegorach, you should make the province very unstable, because of many revolts of the Romanians, because the Hungarians forced the Romanians to convert to lutheranism, catholicism or calvinism.

So, you should split it into 5 or 6 religiouns, because Hereticism and even Paganism was present, but a very small population followed these religions.

This is mostly not accurate. Transylvania was the first country that declared the equal rights for all religions, and the banning of forced conversions.
It was in declared in 1586 at the national assembly in Torda.
There were no forced conversion of ortodoxes either, reformation does not work that way, you know. I agree, that ortodox romanians were poor and had no political weight, but there were no rebellions of the type you mentioned (please give us dates if you disagree) apart from the movement of the Székelys when prince János Zsigmond went to the catholic székey parts (Csík, Gyergyó) with an army to support unitarism (the prince was converted to unitarism.
Anyway, if there was forced conversion, there should have been a large Romanian calvinist or lutheran church, for the status quo remained the same for hundreds of years after the reformation. Yet, there are very few old romanian ortodox temples in the central areas, let alone calvinist ones.
I think we can assume, that the religion more or less defines etnicity: the Hungarians were the calvinists, unitarians, and catholics (part of the székelys) and for a small extent lutheran, The Saxones were lutherans, and the Romanians were orthodox.
These were the religions and instead of your suggestion Transylvania of the period was the solace of religional tolerance, and a safe haven of those seeking asylium. Of course in the age of reformation there are no longer heretics, and I haven't got the faintest idea where you get that Pagan thing? Who were the pagans?
For more info on the map of religions (and demographics) in those period see:
https://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?...igtrans6fk.jpg
More or less
I know of no Romanian movements or revolts until the 18th centuryif there were some please let me knowt that i could research it....
As far as your remark: Romanians and Hungarians don't get very well, you know
I can say what they say in the town that I loved so well:
What's done is done what is won is won,
And what's lost is lost and gone forever...

But I can't understand why should some people want to redesign the past. But I don't think that we should discuss it here.

[Dromikaites]

This is mostly not accurate. Transylvania was the first country that declared the equal rights for all religions, and the banning of forced conversions.
It was in declared in 1586 at the national assembly in Torda.

True, however it did not include the Romanian Orthodox. It only applied to the 3 nations (Hungarians, Szekelys and Germans).

There were no forced conversion of ortodoxes either, reformation does not work that way, you know.

True again if we refer to the Pike&Musket period. Forced conversion took place at a later time in Transylvania and it was the work of the Austrians (the creation of the so called Greek-Catholic church).

I know of no Romanian movements or revolts until the 18th century if there were some please let me knowt that i could research it....

You are right, for the 16th and 17th century there are no major Romanian uprisings in Transylvania. The last major one before the 18th century was in 1437 (in some areas it lasted untill early 1438) and was joined in some areas also by some of the poor Hungarians. As a result the Hungarians, Germans and Szekelys signed a pact pledging mutual assistance to each other in case of danger (the so called "Unio Trium Natiorum" pact, September 16th 1437).

[Forgus]

Thanks for the story I didn't now it in such a detail. Shurely tis is not the Bathory that goes gloriously into the Hungarian annales... :-) What you say about the religius difficulties they might have been even more severe, besause the Hungarian nobles of Transylvania were overwhelmingly protestant... And they fought the catholic Székelys... Ironic, isn't it?
Some additions, not that they matter: Mihai swore felthy to Bathory in 1599...
Since he promised that he will deliver the country to the Austrians, and were unwilling to do so in 1600 he was chased out by the Austrian general Basta and the unhappy Thransylvanians in 1600.
Since Mihai was chased out from Wallachia by the Polish he ran to Vienna where once again became friends with the Austrians.
In the meantime the Transylvanians re-elected the former prince Báthory Zsigmond to the throne who was chased away by the combined forces of Mihai and Basta.
Victorios the two guys fell at each other as the old hatred renewed. Basta got hold of some letters where Mihai wrote quite rude things about the king, and had him murdered.
After Mihai's death the Transylvanians elected a new prince Székely Mózes, (the only Székely prince...) but he was killed in a battle against Wallachian mercenaries of Basta. Basta ruled for king Rudolf until 1605 when the was beaten by prince Bocskai István, and the second golden age or Transylvania begun.

the years between 1598 and 1605 gave great destruction, and changed the demographic distribution of Transylvania greatly. As a saxon historian wrote: It is grace of God that we were barely prevailed...

[Forgus]

True, however it did not include the Romanian Orthodox. It only applied to the 3 nations (Hungarians, Szekelys and Germans).

True again if we refer to the Pike&Musket period. Forced conversion took place at a later time in Transylvania and it was the work of the Austrians (the creation of the so called Greek-Catholic church).


You are right, for the 16th and 17th century there are no major Romanian uprisings in Transylvania. The last major one before the 18th century was in 1437 (in some areas it lasted untill early 1438) and was joined in some areas also by some of the poor Hungarians. As a result the Hungarians, Germans and Szekelys signed a pact pledging mutual assistance to each other in case of danger (the so called "Unio Trium Natiorum" pact, September 16th 1437).

I agree totally with all three remarks...
The 1437 uprising was not an ethnic one it was a classic peasant uprising of the period. It started in the counties of Kolozs, Ugocsa and Szatmár, and these were mainly populated by Hungarians, even so because we are before the Turk invasion. The Leader was also Hungarian Budai Nagy Antal. I don't know much about Romanian participation apart the fact that I heard that the count it a national upraising... I don't now the basys of it, but if somebosy has any details, I'm interested.

[edyzmedieval]

This is mostly not accurate. Transylvania was the first country that declared the equal rights for all religions, and the banning of forced conversions.
It was in declared in 1586 at the national assembly in Torda.
There were no forced conversion of ortodoxes either, reformation does not work that way, you know. I agree, that ortodox romanians were poor and had no political weight, but there were no rebellions of the type you mentioned (please give us dates if you disagree) apart from the movement of the Székelys when prince János Zsigmond went to the catholic székey parts (Csík, Gyergyó) with an army to support unitarism (the prince was converted to unitarism.
Anyway, if there was forced conversion, there should have been a large Romanian calvinist or lutheran church, for the status quo remained the same for hundreds of years after the reformation. Yet, there are very few old romanian ortodox temples in the central areas, let alone calvinist ones.
I think we can assume, that the religion more or less defines etnicity: the Hungarians were the calvinists, unitarians, and catholics (part of the székelys) and for a small extent lutheran, The Saxones were lutherans, and the Romanians were orthodox.
These were the religions and instead of your suggestion Transylvania of the period was the solace of religional tolerance, and a safe haven of those seeking asylium. Of course in the age of reformation there are no longer heretics, and I haven't got the faintest idea where you get that Pagan thing? Who were the pagans?
For more info on the map of religions (and demographics) in those period see:
https://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?...igtrans6fk.jpg
More or less
I know of no Romanian movements or revolts until the 18th centuryif there were some please let me knowt that i could research it....
As far as your remark: Romanians and Hungarians don't get very well, you know
I can say what they say in the town that I loved so well:
What's done is done what is won is won,
And what's lost is lost and gone forever...

But I can't understand why should some people want to redesign the past. But I don't think that we should discuss it here.

Check again detailed history.

They forced the conversions, but of no avail. People didn't want to change from Orthodoxism. Oh well, it's not the place to discuss.

And about the remark, at least there's something we can agree on. (about the quote).

[Dromikaites]

Thanks for the story I didn't now it in such a detail. Shurely tis is not the Bathory that goes gloriously into the Hungarian annales... :-) What you say about the religius difficulties they might have been even more severe, besause the Hungarian nobles of Transylvania were overwhelmingly protestant... And they fought the catholic Székelys... Ironic, isn't it?

Well, in that particular conflict between the Bathorys (it all stated durign Zsigmond's rule) the religion was secondary. What mattered most was the reduced autonomy of the Szekelys.

Some additions, not that they matter: Mihai swore felthy to Bathory in 1599...

Not him, his noblemen played a dirty trick on him in 1595. They were sent to negotiate an alliance treaty with Transylvania. Instead of sticking to their mandate, they saw the opportunity to gain more leverage with their king. In the Wallachian royal council half of the members were Greeks and the Wallachians wanted them out. Mihai got the throne with Greek money (who had great designs for him, hoping he would liberate the Balkans from the Ottomans) and with the support of the powerful noblemen from Oltenia (western Wallachia). The noblemen from Oltenia were not satisfied with how the power was shared after their candidate got the crown. So once in Transylvania they negotiated higher privileges with Bathory Zsigmond (to be exempt from the Wallachian king's justice, to have the Greeks removed from the royal council, etc) and in exchange they swore fealty to the Transylvanian prince. Mihai counteracted by doing the same with the Austrian emperor...

Since he promised that he will deliver the country to the Austrians, and were unwilling to do so in 1600 he was chased out by the Austrian general Basta and the unhappy Thransylvanians in 1600.

Yeah, Mihai had a mind of his own :) But the Wallachian noblemen were also against handing over Transylvania to the Austrian emperor because they considered it to be easier to defend. Strategically, if a competent government controlled Transylvania, Wallachia and Moldova could also be controlled.

Mihai's problem was that his army was mainly a mercenary one. And it was the Austrian emperor who was paying for it. With the subsidies cut, he wasn't able to pay them anymore . The Transylvanian parliament agreed twice to the rising of the taxes, to the point they went 15(!!!) times higher than under the Bathorys. Yet this wasn't enough and the disgruntled mercenaries were plundering the country. Clearly almost everybody in Transylvania got fed up with Mihai's rule because he wasn't able to fulfill his basic duty of protecting his subjects. What is worth mentioning because it is often not mentioned by neither Romanian nor Hungarian historians (for opposite reasons :)), is at first the majority of the Hungarian noblemen supported him (hence their behavior in the Parliament and during the above-mentioned battle). Had he been able to controll his mercenaries, he would have probably died of old age on the throne of an unified Romania or even on the throne of the Byzantine emperors (the Christians form the Balkans had great expectations of him - even today in the history museum in Sofia, the Bulgarian capitol, there is a large hall dedicated to his campaigns in Bulgaria and he is presented there as the liberator of Bulgaria).

Since Mihai was chased out from Wallachia by the Polish he ran to Vienna where once again became friends with the Austrians.
In the meantime the Transylvanians re-elected the former prince Báthory Zsigmond to the throne who was chased away by the combined forces of Mihai and Basta.
Victorios the two guys fell at each other as the old hatred renewed. Basta got hold of some letters where Mihai wrote quite rude things about the king, and had him murdered.

No letters, but Basta had Mihai murdered indeed. Aparently the emperor wasn't too pleased with Basta's initiative.

After Mihai's death the Transylvanians elected a new prince Székely Mózes, (the only Székely prince...) but he was killed in a battle against Wallachian mercenaries of Basta.

Szekely Mozes was pro-Ottoman. The Wallachians were still allied with the Austrians so they invaded Transylvania in 1603. Szekely Mozes was killed in battle by the Wallachian army led by the king Radu Serban (one of Mihai's generals). You can say "Wallachian mercenaries" only in the sense the Wallachian army was partly made of mercenaries (but as much as Mihai's army).

[Forgus]

Szekely Mozes was pro-Ottoman. The Wallachians were still allied with the Austrians so they invaded Transylvania in 1603. Szekely Mozes was killed in battle by the Wallachian army led by the king Radu Serban (one of Mihai's generals). You can say "Wallachian mercenaries" only in the sense the Wallachian army was partly made of mercenaries (but as much as Mihai's army).

By that time Mihai was dead, and my resource clearly say that Radu Serban was financed by Basta (or rather the king) Not that it matters...

[Forgus]

Check again detailed history.

They forced the conversions, but of no avail. People didn't want to change from Orthodoxism. Oh well, it's not the place to discuss.

And about the remark, at least there's something we can agree on. (about the quote).

You are right, I will not argue though my fingers are inchy on the keyboard.
Please comment the unit list.

[Dromikaites]

By that time Mihai was dead, and my resource clearly say that Radu Serban was financed by Basta (or rather the king) Not that it matters...

Yes, Mihai was dead, that's how Radu got to be king of Wallachia :)

[cegorach]

OK guys I realise that Hungarian - Romanian relationship was very... complicated.

I do realise that Transylvania was HUNGARIAN at that time. I know that years after 2nd WW some Romanian historians tried to make several Hungarian leaders Romanians.
Because ethnics didn't matter much at that time they were Hungarians of course - you can compare it to some claims that several Polish heroes were Lithuanians/Ukrainians/Belorussians/Germans etc which were far from the truth.

I know that Transylvania was one of the first countries ( with Poland )which provided religious tolerance for its population.

Anyway this topic is rather about the OiM and PMTW mods so please concentrate on:

- units - names, weapons, uniforms ( hungarian, western or eastern - e.g. polish ??) and its battle tactics i.e. used to ambush, raid , as line infantry/cavalry, scouts, horse archers, mounted infantry ( horses to transport or shooting on foot and mounting to move/fight or what,
It is important in what timeperiod to place them ( for PMTW1 - early 1480+, high 1572+ and late 1648+) or before or after Marius reform ?

- historical heroes - name/surname, date of birth/appearance, stats ( command, piety, loyalty, acumen, dread), proposed vices or virtues, place of birth/appearance.
Overall stats for MTW, but easy to trasform into RTW BI ones.
Portraits of these guys would be good as well.

- famous faction leaders would be good as well.

- ancilliaries - faction specific, famous people acting this way etc,

- you can propose historical battles as well - but I need VERY DETAILED INFORMATION INCLUDING MAPS.

- finally we are still working on animations for MTW edition - if you have some skills and are willing to do some work - tell me.
I need someone to work on eastern units - mostly polish, hungarian, romanian etc.

I will analise your discussion and tell you more early on Monday.

Regards Cegorach

[cegorach]

Shure, I help I already have done some reseach on Transsylvanian armies that may change the unit list:

Gyalogszékely Pl. székelyek - light inf armed with spears/swords/axes/sometimes muskets/bows

Székely lófő Pl: lófők - medium light cavalry with sabres or lances

Székely veres drabant Pl: drabantok - Red clad musketmen recruited amongst the Székelys

Hajdú Talpas Pl. talpasok -light infantry armed with sabres, no armour

Hajdú puskás pl. - puskások medium infantry no armour, musket sabre

Lovas hajdú pl. hajdúk - light cavalry sabre and pistol no armour

Kék drabant pl. drabantok - medium infantry musketmen good morale wearing blue
Huszár pl. huszárok - Medium cavalry with light armour, using picks, sabres and pistols good morale

Válogatott koplyás - chosen lancers light cavalry good morale no armour shield

Pattanytús pl. pattanytúsok - arty

Szász polgárőrör pl. polgárőrök - medium inf, armoured Saxon town watch

Kék-zöld drabant pl. drabantok - musketmen raised by the Saxon towns may be excluded. Must wear blue-green uniform

Can you divide them into categories:

INfantry - musketeers,
- musket armed ambushers,
- musket armed light infantry ( faster than musketeers, but not for ambushing - rather skirmishing, outflanking)

- mounted infantry - bad cavalry, but use horses to move quickly,
- irregulars - axes, sabres, scythes etc.
- pikemen,

- mercenaries ( only or as well as recruited in normal way),

IN addition - which ones were armoured, and what was their primary melee weapon - sabre, axe or something different ?

Cavalry

- lancers,
- armoured lancers,
- elite cavalry ( bodyguards),
- light cavalry armed with bows or without them,
- irregulars,
militia - were there cavalrymen called Kuruc ??
- cavalry with muskets/carbines,

- anything else ( mercenaries etc)

I need a clear picture to create a list which will be implemented in both editions of PMTW and in OiM ( so more detailed) mod.

Regards Cegorach

[Dromikaites]

I do realise that Transylvania was HUNGARIAN at that time. I know that years after 2nd WW some Romanian historians tried to make several Hungarian leaders Romanians.

It is rather the other way around

The Wallachians and Moldavians were very much into mounted infantry but they were actually quite good on horse. They had to be, since they were fighting the Tartars probably every year (the Moldavians more often than the Wallachians). From now onwards I'll use Romanians instead Wallachia or Moldova unless there is something Wallachian or Moldavian-only.

Romanian armies organisation changed at the end of the 16th century and again at the begining of the 18th century.

15th - 16th century
The army was divided in 2: a permanent army called Oastea Mica (meaning the small army), made of:
- the noblemen (boieri) - helmet, mail or breastplate + shield for defence, lance (or the variant with a hook, for dismounting knights), mace or axe for close combat against heavy armored enemies, sword (both variants - straight and the scymitar one). When dismounted they would use the sword, axe or mace, depending on the type of enemy. They could also shoot arrows but their role was predominantly shock troops or bodyguards.
- the noblemen's retainers (curteni) - helmet, mail or leather armor,shields, lances (sometimes with the hook), bows, axes or maces, swords (both versions). When dismounted they would use bows then close in with shields and swords/maces/axes. basically the curteni were would be a less armored version of the boieri, who would do a lot of arrow shooting.
- mercenaries (seimeni or lefegii) would be usually armed with firearms or, less often, heavy cavalry (Polish or Hungarian hussars). Mercenaries were either armored the same way the curteni were or wore no armor at all. Cossacks or Serbian haiduci would also be among the be the mercenary troops
- medium-light cavalry (calarasi, rosi or rosiori) - those were soldiers like the Byzantine pronoiari, who received land in exchange for service. They were armed like the curteni and wore mail, leather or linen armor. They also fought on foot
- medium infantry (dorobanti from the German trabant), they were also serving in exchange for the land. They used long spears or halberds and large rectangular shields that were hanging from the left shoulder. For close combat they were using swords or double-handed axes.
- artilery (small bombards)
At times of war the Oastea Mare (the big army) was called to join the Oastea Mare. The Oastea mare was made of:
- the border troops (strajeri in Moldova and plaiesi in Wallachia) would shadow the invaders, using hit-and-run tactics. The border troops were almost exclusively light cavalry armed with lances, bows, shields and swords. They wore leather, linen or no armor. The border troops would eventualy converge to the meeting point were the king decided to make the stand. In battle they would usually remain mounted and fend off other light cavalry, hit the flanks or the back of the enemy or chase the routing enemy.
- the peasants divided in archers, spearmen and axemen. They fought on foot and usualy had no armor, using only wooden shields for protection or no shield at all. For close combat the archers and spearmen used knives or axes.

The tactics were almost invariably to chose extremely dificult terrain, reinforce it with battlefield fortifications (ditches, palisades) and have almost all the army dismounted with the cavalry hidden in the forest or behind some hills. Peasants were also generaly hidden because they lacked the discipline to stand the attack of profesional troops. The Romanians were fighting on horseback only against the Tartars, who avoided dificult terrain because of their cavalry-only army.

From 16th to 18th century the Oastea Mare slowly faded out except for the border troops (plaiasi and strajeri). Also the chainmail and leather armor was replaced by a linen&wool version which provided protection against bullets. As a result the soldiers looked chubby. The number of mercenaries also increased and the dorobanti started to use arquebuses and muskets. The bow was still in use because it was outranging the firearms and because the enemies were either not heavily armored or were giving up armor because of the firearms. Towards the end of the 16th century we start to have the panduri in Wallachia and the vanatori in Moldova who were mounted infantry with lances and fire arms. When on foot they were armed with muskets, 2 pistols and a yatagan (Turkish curved sword). Panduri and vanatori usualy wore no armor.

In the 18th century the penetrating power of the firearms made even the linen & wool armors obsolete. The bows and spears were dropped and the size of the Oastea Mica was drasticaly reduced because the Ottomans ordered so. The army was made of

Light cavalry:
- calarasi armed with yatagans and 2 pistols
- rosiori with lances, yatagans and 2 pistols (especialy in Wallachia)

Infantry:
- panduri (Wallachia) or vanatori (Moldova)
- Albanian mercenaries (arnauti), armed similar to the the panduri but considered elite

[cegorach]

Thank you very much !

Here is the list for PMTW ( MTW VI) - the one for OiM is beeing prepared, but for now please see if it is good enough.

It doesn't mention all western type units which Hungary get in the mod, though - only unique units.

UNIT LIST GENERALLY


-------------
PMTW - MTW VI EDITION
-------------

EARLY 1480 - 1572

MOLDAVIA/WALLACHIA
--------------------

INFANTRY
Razesi - peasant archers,
Munteni - mountain units, hide in open for ambushing, doublehanded axes,

CAVALRY - ALL CAN DISMOUNT IN OPEN BATTLE
Boieri - small number of arrows, lance, good armour, shields, BODYGUARDS
Curteni - retainers, more arrows, lance, armour, shields,
Strajeri - border guards, lances, bows, shields and swords



HUNGARY/TRANSYLVANIA
---------------------


INFANTRY
Gyalogszékelyek - light infantry for ambushing enemies, hide in open, mercenaries,
----> from High --> Hajdú puskások - musketeers - for Hungary and Poland, mercenaries,
----> from High --> Kék drabantok - good quality musketeers,

CAVALRY
Lovas hajdúk - irregular light cavalry - mercenaries
Huszárok - lance, armour, shield,
Rac - lance, shield, armour, but worse than hungarian hussars - shared with Poland, bonus in Serbia,

+ WARWAGONS



HIGH 1572-1648

MOLDAVIA/WALLACHIA
---------------------

INFANTRY
Razesi - still archers, but smaller units of better soldiers to represent more professional infantry,
Dorobanti - armed with arquebusiers, but with good h-t-h capabilities,


CAVALRY
Boieri - small number of arrows, lance, armour, shields, BODYGUARDS
Curteni - retainers, more arrows, lance, light armour, shields,
Plaiesi - no shield, bows,
Vanatori - mounted infantry, fire arms - form of Dragoons,


HUNGARY/TRANSYLVANIA
----------------------

INFANTRY
Székelyek - light infantry for ambushing enemies with muskets (small amount of ammunition), hide in open, mercenaries,
Hajdú puskások - musketeers - for Hungary and Poland, mercenaries,
Kék drabantok - good quality musketeers,

CAVALRY
Lovas hajdúk - irregular light cavalry - mercenaries
Huszárok - lance, armour, shield

+ WARWAGONS


LATE 1648+

NO MOLDAVIAN/WALLACHIAN FACTION - so the units will be available as regional ones
--------------------------------

Boieri - lance, chainmail, shield
Rosiori - lance, shield,
Calarisi - sabre,

HUNGARY/TRANSYLVANIA
---------------------

INFANTRY
Székelyek - light infantry for ambushing enemies with muskets (small amount of ammunition), hide in open, mercenaries,
Hajdú puskások - musketeers - for Hungary and Poland, mercenaries,
Kék drabantok - good quality musketeers,

CAVALRY
Lovas hajdúk - irregular light cavalry - mercenaries,
Huszárok - no lance, no armour, sabres only,
Kuruc - militia cavalry

Regards Cegorach

[Dromikaites]

Thank you very much !

Here is the list for PMTW ( MTW VI) - the one for OiM is beeing prepared, but for now please see if it is good enough.

It doesn't mention all western type units which Hungary get in the mod, though - only unique units.

UNIT LIST GENERALLY


-------------
PMTW - MTW VI EDITION
-------------

EARLY 1480 - 1572

MOLDAVIA/WALLACHIA
--------------------

INFANTRY
Razesi - peasant archers,
Munteni - mountain units, hide in open for ambushing, doublehanded axes,

CAVALRY - ALL CAN DISMOUNT IN OPEN BATTLE
Boieri - small number of arrows, lance, good armour, shields, BODYGUARDS
Curteni - retainers, more arrows, lance, armour, shields,
Strajeri - border guards, lances, bows, shields and swords



HUNGARY/TRANSYLVANIA
---------------------


INFANTRY
Gyalogszékelyek - light infantry for ambushing enemies, hide in open, mercenaries,
----> from High --> Hajdú puskások - musketeers - for Hungary and Poland, mercenaries,
----> from High --> Kék drabantok - good quality musketeers,

CAVALRY
Lovas hajdúk - irregular light cavalry - mercenaries
Huszárok - lance, armour, shield,
Rac - lance, shield, armour, but worse than hungarian hussars - shared with Poland, bonus in Serbia,

+ WARWAGONS



HIGH 1572-1648

MOLDAVIA/WALLACHIA
---------------------

INFANTRY
Razesi - still archers, but smaller units of better soldiers to represent more professional infantry,
Dorobanti - armed with arquebusiers, but with good h-t-h capabilities,


CAVALRY
Boieri - small number of arrows, lance, armour, shields, BODYGUARDS
Curteni - retainers, more arrows, lance, light armour, shields,
Plaiesi - no shield, bows,
Vanatori - mounted infantry, fire arms - form of Dragoons,


HUNGARY/TRANSYLVANIA
----------------------

INFANTRY
Székelyek - light infantry for ambushing enemies with muskets (small amount of ammunition), hide in open, mercenaries,
Hajdú puskások - musketeers - for Hungary and Poland, mercenaries,
Kék drabantok - good quality musketeers,

CAVALRY
Lovas hajdúk - irregular light cavalry - mercenaries
Huszárok - lance, armour, shield

+ WARWAGONS


LATE 1648+

NO MOLDAVIAN/WALLACHIAN FACTION - so the units will be available as regional ones
--------------------------------

Boieri - lance, chainmail, shield
Rosiori - lance, shield,
Calarisi - sabre,

HUNGARY/TRANSYLVANIA
---------------------

INFANTRY
Székelyek - light infantry for ambushing enemies with muskets (small amount of ammunition), hide in open, mercenaries,
Hajdú puskások - musketeers - for Hungary and Poland, mercenaries,
Kék drabantok - good quality musketeers,

CAVALRY
Lovas hajdúk - irregular light cavalry - mercenaries,
Huszárok - no lance, no armour, sabres only,
Kuruc - militia cavalry

Regards Cegorach

Yep, it's accurate enough. Looking forward to seeing the units in the game.

[Forgus]

I will adjust the Hungarians in a few days if I may.

[cegorach]

So Forgus ???

[Forgus]

So Forgus ???

I just bought a great book about Hungarian and Transsylvanian armies of the era!! It is a beauty 100 pages in full colour drawings. You'll hear about me soon

[cegorach]

Great !

I hope you can add some images this way.

Regards Cegorach

[Forgus]

Great !

I hope you can add some images this way.

Regards Cegorach

Yeah, I'll scan some...

[cegorach]

Hmmm Forgus...

[YanTraken]

maby his scaner needs to warm up :D

[cegorach]

He just said that he will send me them tomorrow - forgot, happens.

[Forgus]

hew... 80 pages in full colour... I don't know where to start :-(

[Forgus]

Here you go, you leeches:


[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]

[cegorach]

Great pictures Forgus it was worth waiting !

I have only one request - could you translate the short hungarian descriptions, it would be most useful !

Regards Cegorach

[Forgus]

1) Hajdú from 1606
2) (Székely) Veres Darabont 1570
3) Székely lófők (cavalry) mid 17th century, Székely Puskások 1620 and officer
4) Székely cavalry and foot cca 1680
5) Kék darabontok (officer and men) around 1600 and the streets they lived in in Gyulafehérvár.
6) Huszárok cca1550 (early) later much liter, no armor!
7) Hajduk 17th century
8) Polish, Cossack and Scotish merc (no mistake!!) late 16th century, early 17th
9) Germans in Transsylvanian service 17th century
10) Rumanian mercenaries for those interested. late 17th century

I skipped arty, baggage, and a lot of stuff but this should be enough.
Give me the number of models assigned to Hungary/Transsylvania, and I give you a good unit roster, and I provide exact pics for the skins.

[cegorach]

I mean that we don't know who is who, so please write for example - picture 1, soldier nr 1 is 'name in Magyar' (translation if possible) and what is written about him on the picture.
It will bu used to prepare 3d models so matters a lot...

Regards Cegorach the LEECH

[Forgus]

Check back!

[cegorach]

1) Hajdú from 1606
2) (Székely) Veres Darabont 1570
3) Székely lófők (cavalry) mid 17th century, Székely Puskások 1620 and officer
4) Székely cavalry and foot cca 1680
5) Kék darabontok (officer and men) around 1600 and the streets they lived in in Gyulafehérvár.
6) Huszárok cca1550 (early) later much liter, no armor!
7) Hajduk 17th century
8) Polish, Cossack and Scotish merc (no mistake!!) late 16th century, early 17th
9) Germans in Transsylvanian service 17th century
10) Rumanian mercenaries for those interested. late 17th century

I skipped arty, baggage, and a lot of stuff but this should be enough.
Give me the number of models assigned to Hungary/Transsylvania, and I give you a good unit roster, and I provide exact pics for the skins.

I will inform you how many models/skins can we use and I would still need these translations, thanks again - maybe I will show these picture to a polish writer who recently described Transylvanian army in much simplier and probably quite wrong way - I will tell you what was his impression