The Complete EDB Guide - discussion

[Dol Guldur]

I have just posted a new guide at:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=50439

This thread has been created to discuss this Guide. If you have anything to add, correct, suggest etc. then please do so. Let's make this the best source, the complete source, of "everything EDB" so that none of us need ever go searching around every forum's archives ad nauseum!

The Guide does not seek to define ways in which the information can be used, only to provide that information. So, although we might use certain aspects of it to create a ZoR system (for example) those implications and applications are beyond the scope of this Guide. This file provides only the raw data.

Your input is much appreciated and anticipated.

[Epistolary Richard]

Excellent, Dol Guldur. If you haven't already, this is another thread talking about some of the limitations of bonuses and recruitment conditionals in edh, you may want to pull the pertinent info out of that and incorporate it into your guide.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=43442
.

[Dol Guldur]

Thanks Epistolary,

Yes, I have read that one - I will think about it; problem is I seem to get conflicting results and I wonder if the patch 1.2 was installed in these tests? Core buildings certainly can have building_present_min_level requirements when I try...the only thing I don't like when you use this requirement for recruits is that the building scroll adds the building level to the end of the text for the effect.

Has anyone found a way around that? More testing needed on both these counts I think.

I will need to test negative "bonuses" as well, I've also noticed that some effects work when the word "bonus" (the second occurence) is removed and will need to work out how it alters the benefit (if it does).

[Dol Guldur]

Quote:
Building Blocks - Requirements

The first line states the requirements necessary to be satisfied in order for the building to be available for construction. All factions reside within the 6 hard-coded cultures, and so this particular building can be built by all factions. Any combination of factions/cultures can be listed. Both visible and hidden resources can be used as requirements as may "building_present_min_level x y" where x is the building type and y the level of that building type. This latter simply requires a certain building to be present in that settlement before the practice_field can become available for construction. The connector "and" can be used to compound requirements, for example:


But strangely enough I cannot specify individual factions (in the requirements section) and get differing descriptions/names for those buildings *within* a single culture *specifically* for buildings present at the start of the game. If you want to build them after the start of the game, it will recognize those different variations, but not for those present at the start (it also loses their graphics). Instead it shows the generic "warning" message and I get (ROMAN) listed in the tooltip. This problem can be solved by just listing the culture (instead of the individual factions) for the the 'required factions' but then that means all factions in that culture can build it. I've had this happen in multiple complexes.

I might also add that negative capabilities vary in effect. Some trade ones do work (in the negative) and some others work in that they reduce positives, but won't carry over into the negative (happiness, loyalty, etc.), but others don't appear to work in the negative at all as far as I have seen (construction cost and time ones at least).

I've taken the liberty of transferring your words to the right place :)

Did you look at the tutorial on making building names/factions specific? I did not notice the effect you bring up, but I well may have tested it under the culture and nto the faction as far as the edb building requirement line is concerned. Has anyone else noticed this? I will see if I can get time to test it and look into it soon.

Regarding your latter point - no, I cannot get negatives to work here but I guess the workaround on this is to set the actual construction times and costs as per the lowest faction/culture and then apply bonuses to all factions in possession of higher costs/buildtimes through an effect stated in all their core_buildings.

Dol Guldur.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I will need to test negative "bonuses" as well, I've also noticed that some effects work when the word "bonus" (the second occurence) is removed and will need to work out how it alters the benefit (if it does).

Which ones have you had success with in removing the second 'bonus'? I'd be very interested in knowing.
I *think* I've gotten negative population growth to work only as far as reducing positive population growth bonuses. But at least it's something.

[Dol Guldur]

I've made no tests yet on removing the stand-alone "bonus"; some time ago I know it accepted it and produced a result, but mroe recently I got an error on another effect by doing this. It seems some may accept it and others not.

Ah, more testing...

[Dol Guldur]

After some basic testing I've added this to the Guide...

==============

Notes on format...

Effects should be coded with a stand-alone "bonus" added before the integer even when there is a "bonus" in the effect's name itself. E.G. population_growth_bonus bonus 1. However, population_growth_bonus bonus +1 also works. Sometimes omitting the "bonus" does work but can cause problems - for example, the building scroll may not display the actual bonus (even though it works), and no negative number can be introduced because the engine looks for either an integer (not a number with a "+" or "-" before it in this case) or the word "bonus".

Negative effects...

population_growth_bonus bonus -5 displayed the expected -2.5 in the building scroll but seemed not to affect the settlement population growth indicator on the settlement scroll.

==========

Bottom line: use bonus; but it does make you wonder why it's there at all? Was there a "penalty" at one time or abandoned?

UPDATE: I meant effects with the "_bonus" element in their name take the stand-alone bonus too. I've added this to explain the other effects...


Farming_level and the armour and various weapon effects sometimes carry the stand-alone "bonus" and sometimes do not.

Trade_fleet, mine_resource, road_level, and the games, races and the four defensive effects carry no stand-alone "bonus" in the EDB file.

[Encaitar]

Question: what does the "building_factions { x, }" requirement do?

[Dol Guldur]

Armour bonus 1 or Armour 1?

After testing these two working options I conclude that...

"Armour bonus 1" is cumulative and acts as we would expect and desire it. That is, it adds 1 to the current armour of the unit (whether that be modified or unmodified armour).

"Armour 1" seems to ensure the armour attribute of the unit is 1 above the EDU stated armour but is not cumulative. But it does not reduce higher armour so it is not setting the armour variable to "1".

Thus:

armour 1 AND armour bonus 1 = 2

armour 1 AND armour 1 = 1

armour bonus 1 AND armour bonus 1 AND armour 1 = 2

Anyone got more insight on this? Here are my test results...

faction_capability / capability / = armour added to unit

armour 1 / armour bonus 1 AND armour 1 / = 2
armour 1 / armour bonus 1 / = 2
armour 1 / armour bonus 1/ = 2
armour bonus 1 / - / =1 (per building)
armour 1 / - / =1 (regardless of number of buildings)
- / armour bonus 1 / =1
- / armour 1 / =1

I'd appreciate any further tests with "bonus" anyone can get around to doing.


Encaitar,

That's a good question and I wish I knew the answer. Testing has shown that it must be used in the same format as the "factions" requirement and seems to some extent to be similar in results (though not always). I thought it might be a means for testing the culture/factional ownership of a building regardless of the current owner - would make ZoR a lot cleaner, eh? - but all my tests failed to prove this or anything: I am quite as clueless about it as when I started, other than knowing it takes the same format as "factions"!

[ScionTheWorm]

It looks extremely well done and with an excellent layout. Great work, I'm sure it will be very helpful

[Dol Guldur]

Thanks Scion,

I only wish I could work out how to print out Org posts in portrait; I always have to resort to landscape ot fit it all on the page without the words being cut off (yes, even using the print format option in the forum).

It may have something to do with code blocks, even though I turn the larger ones into quotes to stop people having to use those horrendous horizontal scrollbars.

[Dol Guldur]

The Complete EDB Guide has been updated to include a new Excel resource (available on request - PM me) and a link to a tutorial on adding new buildings and getting the related graphics in-game.

Visit guide at https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=50037

Dol Guldur

[Monkwarrior]

There are a couple of questions I'd like to explain here and, if you find them interesting, you can add to the guide. This is part of a research carried out by one of our clanmates, CeltiberoYamamoto.

- Complex conditionals for bonuses:
Bonuses, in the same way as recruitment, can be linked to conditionals, for example hidden resources. This is an example: CeltiberoYamamoto tried to stablish two different types of regions, those with potential of population growing and those without it. He put a new hidden resource called "vida" (life in Spanish ) and gave this bonus:

        governors_villa requires factions { barbarian, ct_carthage, eastern, parthia, egyptian, greek, roman, } 
        {
            capability
            { 
                population_growth_bonus bonus -2 requires not hidden_resource vida

In those regions without this hidden resource, each new level of core building has a more negative population growth bonus, making more difficult the growing.

- More complex building tree for barbarian:
There are several ways to simulate, but they must not be linked to settlement levels, as barbarian settlements cannot reach large and huge cities.
a) Upgrades without new settlement level:

building barracks_celtic
{
    levels muster_field militia_barracks city_barracks army_barracks
    {
        muster_field requires factions { britons, } 
        {
            capability
            {
                recruit "barb infantry briton"  0  requires factions { britons, } 
            }
            construction  2
            cost  600 
            settlement_min town
            upgrades
            {
                militia_barracks
            }
        }
        militia_barracks requires factions { britons, } 
        {
            capability
            {
                recruit "barb infantry briton"  0  requires factions { britons, } 
                recruit "warband sword briton"  0  requires factions { britons, } 
            }
            construction  3 
            cost  1200 
            settlement_min large_town
            upgrades
            {
                city_barracks
            }
        }
        city_barracks requires factions { britons, } 
        {
            capability
            {
		recruit "barb infantry briton"  0  requires factions { britons, } 
                recruit "warband sword briton"  0  requires factions { britons, } 
                recruit "barb warguard briton"  0  requires factions { britons, } 
            }
            construction  4 
            cost  2400 
            settlement_min city
            upgrades
            {
            army_barracks
            }
        }
        army_barracks requires factions { britons, } 
        {
            capability
            {
		recruit "barb infantry briton"  0  requires factions { britons, } 
                recruit "warband sword briton"  0  requires factions { britons, } 
                recruit "barb warguard briton"  0  requires factions { britons, } 
                recruit "astures" 0  requires factions { britons, }
            }
            construction  6 
            cost  4800 
            settlement_min city
            upgrades
            {
            }
        }
    }
    plugins 
    {
    }
}

With this solution there are two disadvantages, the building doesn't appear in the building tree (although it seems to be buildable) and it is readily buildable just after the precedent level is built, although this problem can be solved (or reduced) by putting some complex conditionals to the construction.
b) New type of building:

building barracks_celtic
{
    levels muster_field militia_barracks city_barracks 
    {
        muster_field requires factions { britons, } 
        {
            capability
            {
                recruit "barb infantry briton"  0  requires factions { britons, } 
            }
            construction  2
            cost  600 
            settlement_min town
            upgrades
            {
                militia_barracks
            }
        }
        militia_barracks requires factions { britons, } 
        {
            capability
            {
                recruit "barb infantry briton"  0  requires factions { britons, } 
                recruit "warband sword briton"  0  requires factions { britons, } 
            }
            construction  3 
            cost  1200 
            settlement_min large_town
            upgrades
            {
                city_barracks
            }
        }
        city_barracks requires factions { britons, } 
        {
            capability
            {
		recruit "barb infantry briton"  0  requires factions { britons, } 
                recruit "warband sword briton"  0  requires factions { britons, } 
                recruit "barb warguard briton"  0  requires factions { britons, } 
            }
            construction  4 
            cost  2400 
            settlement_min city
            upgrades
            {
            }
        }
    }
    plugins 
    {
    }
}
building barracks_celtic2
{
    levels army_barracks 
    {
        army_barracks requires factions { britons, } and building_present_min_level barracks_celtic city_barracks and building_present_min_level governor_building proconsuls_palace
        {
            capability
            {
                recruit "astures" 0  requires factions { britons, }
            }
            construction  6 
            cost  4800 
            settlement_min city
            upgrades
            {
            }
        }
    }
    plugins 
    {
    }
}

I prefer this solution because the building appears now in the building tree. The conditions for the construction of the army_barracks are now the existence of the city_barracks and a "simulated" proconsuls_palace, made in the same way as a new type of building in the level of city.

Sorry if these questions were obvious , but it seemed interesting to me.

[Dol Guldur]

Monk,

No, I thank you for your contribution. Keep 'em coming.

I was aware of these concepts (even tested the more-than-one-tier-per-level one!) but had not thought of your combination in the first example or of the additional requirement to make the new building appear in the buidling tree: what were the conditions for building the governor_building (seeing as a settlement already has one)?

I don't want to include the application in the EDB guide, only the principles as it were - applications of the principles I will link to though - and I will add your link in with appreciation!

My own tutorial on "changing" the effects of Wonders is an application of the principles; indeed, there's a layer of depth to it I have not added but I really wanted someone else to grasp it rather than me just give it away ;) It's not that hard to get.

Thx again,


Dol Guldur.

[Monkwarrior]

Monk,

No, I thank you for your contribution. Keep 'em coming.

I was aware of these concepts (even tested the more-than-one-tier-per-level one!) but had not thought of your combination in the first example or of the additional requirement to make the new building appear in the buidling tree: what were the conditions for building the governor_building (seeing as a settlement already has one)?

Glad to be of help.
Regarding the governor_building for the barbarian, this was my idea:

building governor_building
{
    levels proconsuls_palace 
    {
        proconsuls_palace requires factions { barbarian, }  and building_present_min_level market market and building_present_min_level taverns bardic_circle
        {
            capability
            {
                recruit "Soldurios"  0  requires factions { germans, } 
            }
            construction  6 
            cost  3200 
            settlement_min city
            upgrades
            {
            }
        }
    }
    plugins 
    {
    }
}

City level is required (no higher) and also some other buildings which are not useful for recruitment, just to delay the construction of this building, simulating the time required for population growing in the other cultures.
What I didn't test was what happens when a barbarian faction conquers a large city from a "civilized" culture. In that case it would be possible to have two different proconsuls_palace, but only the barbarian one would be useful to build the barbarian army_barracks.
I have adapted a kind of ZoR system, but I'm not sure what will be the results in long term after a region is conquered several times by different culture factions, mainly in the case of the AI.

[Dol Guldur]

Yes, complexity is an issue to avoid to make sure the AI works well enough!

[Dol Guldur]

Anyone know why a core_building will accept:

law_bonus bonus 4 requires factions { seleucid, }

under faction_capability but not the very same line in the normal capabilities block?

[Ianofsmeg16]

The links don't work for me *(

[Dol Guldur]

I have updated the initial post with the correct link. A naughty moderator changed the links on me; but I can't complain as he's done an otherwise excellent job in keeping all the links working ;)

[The_Mark]

This sounds interesting:

The plug-ins system is legacy from early in development. The code is still there to allow you to specify building plug-ins, but there is no display for them in the game anymore, which means that you cannot see wether any are built, build new ones through the UI, or look at any descriptions on the campaign map. Certainly the AI won't build them if you were to add some to the game... Best to just stick to buildings and upgrades, really

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=43462


So, if these plug-ins work, we would have a nice tool scripting-wise (if we can create/damage them through scripts, that is), as they would be completely hidden, not buildable by neither AI nor the player, but still detectable through scripts. The question is, how to define a working plug-in?

[Simetrical]

Nice compilation. Most of it I knew, some I didn't (like the faction_capability thing). A few points (well, okay, at least nine):

1) I've heard it said that farming_level bonuses on non-farm buildings don't work unless a farm exists with that level or higher. So a +1 farming_level bonus on a temple does nothing until you build Land Clearance. Interestingly, the farms have their bonuses stated without the "bonus" tag, while the farming temples have it. Could this be related somehow? And what triggers the visible farming development you can see on the strategic map?

2) What does building_factions do? What's the syntax for building_present?

3) Are the limits you state for capabilities the actual limits, or just the limits used in the vanilla files?

4) Have you discovered that the races/games number means anything? I don't think races 1 is any different from races 3, but I'm not totally sure.

5) Negative values, in general, work only to reduce an existing bonus, not to create a new penalty. For instance, a negative law bonus will offset a positive law bonus, but not result in a law penalty to public order or income. A negative trade bonus, however, will reduce income by itself, since there's practically always a trade bonus present on the settlement screen (I think). Likewise tax. I don't know if this is always true, but it holds at least some of the time, AFAIK.

6) The factions { slave, } requirement appears to never be true, as far as I can tell. Rebels use their subfaction to fulfill EDB.txt requirements.

7) The functions of some of the bonuses might be useful to explain:

• Each point in law gives +3% to gross income (farming + trade + taxes + mines), but that bonus is limited to the amount of corruption (see here).
• Each point in farming_level increases the base farming level of the region by one, which increases growth by 0.5% (IIRC) plus income by either 0 or 80 at normal difficulty with normal harvests (see here).
• I've heard that taxable_income_bonus and trade_level_bonus increase taxes and trade by 1% per point.

8) Are you going to incorporate anything from Quietus' guide?

9) I think the max number of hidden resources is 63, not 64.

-Simetrical

[Dol Guldur]

Thank you for that useful post.

It is much appreciated.

I've discovered a couple more things myself too - but I cannot update or attend to this just yet as I am too busy :(

The ranges shown are r:tw vanilla ranges.


I will get back to this when I can. Once again, thank you - these are the kind of responses we need!

[Dol Guldur]

I've yet to update the Guide, but here are some more things I've been testing...

modifications to buildings' construction times and costs:

The "other" category *does* extend past civil buildings because it includes recruitment buildings. It does not extend to religious buildings (temples) but it seems to include *all* others. What purpose then does the "construction_time_bonus_military" (and its cost counterpart) fulfil? It seems to have no effect.

I also noticed that an odd extra "10%" bonus to construction cost occured when setting the construction *time* bonus high. It occured when setting the time bonus to over 100, but also on 25%. Most weird. This changed when I changed the bonuses so I don't think it was an external effect.

[dark]

Hi, im new to the org, and want first to thank dol gur for making this tutorial, it really helped me a lot.
I think i found something today while messing with the files:
the faction_capability thing, while very useful, apparently has some setbacks.
i tried to no avail add building conditionals to it but it always ctd on the turn the building with the faction_capability is finished. For example:
trying to do a building that will enable the training of a certain unit in all faction settlements

faction_capability
{
recruit "roman legionary cohort i" 0 requires factions { roman, } and building_present_min_level barracks_roman militia_barracks
}

(this is for rtr by the way)

i may have misunderstood how the faction_capability works, but since the game loads fine and dont accuse any syntax error, i think im right

dark89

[Dol Guldur]

I am not sure if I have tested recruitment in the faction-wide section; nor do I see a need for it. What you are doing can be done through building the appropriate level of building in each settlement, and would only take one line of code under the normal (settlement-wide) capability.

If you want to make a certain unit available in all regions when you capture a certain building in a specific region then there is no need to place any further requirements. The unit should become available regardless of the buildings in any settlement - and, besides, telling the game to look for a certain level of building may be causing the CTD : where does it look, after all?

Perhaps you could let me know what you are trying to acheive?

[Monkwarrior]

Thinking about this question, I wonder if we could use this type of faction_capability as a sort of "Marius reform". I'll try to explain myself.

This would be a point of development reached by the faction, not the settlement.
For example, if Carthage builds an imperial_palace, this would be the "signal" to recruit more advanced troops in all the carthaginian settlements. The objective would be then to simulate different eras in the game, depending not on the date but on the development degree.

I don't know if this is possible, but it would be wonderful. Any idea?

[Dol Guldur]

Oh yes, I have tested something similar. I assigned a unique hidden resource to a region. When it's settlement is captured the faction_capability (listed in the core building) triggers the availability of a certain military unit to all of the faction's settlements. It definitely works.

You see, resources can be tested for.

[Meneldil]

How exactly does that work ? I haven't really looked into buildings editing and don't really understand

[dark]

the thing im trying to simulate is a reform of sort just like monkwarrior said, but i want to limit the building of the new units using buildings, for example if i use hidden resources every province will be able to train the new units even the ones that dont have any military buildings, so i want to put the barracks as a requirement.
im not sure if im being very clear, if still dont understand than my english sucks more than i thought

dark89

[Dol Guldur]

I believe I am correct in saying that everything you put in that line of code simply fulfills a purpose of testing whether or not the faction-wide bonus will be applied or not. There is no in between. It is either applied globally or it is not applied at all.