Real threats to the family

[Don Corleone]

I know I can get a little fired up around here sometimes, and it might come off like I'm not listening. But Ironside & Lazul, in defending their culture on the grounds of having so many children born out of wedlock, made a great point.

I'm going to paraphrase, but they essentially said that while Swedes may not be as into traditional marriage as Americans, what does that really say, when over 50% of American marriages end in divorce.

Well, since then, we've had at least 1 more gay marriage thread (the topic is like a plague of locusts). But while it was ongoing, the political side of me got hijacked by my engineering mind. Gay marriage isn't even in the top 5 list of threats to the family. #1 on my list? The permissive and tolerant lifestyles that allow a society to claim adultery is an acceptable behavior that the other partner just has to learn how to handle, and the dirtbags who leave their spouses and children (note: men and women do this) to go get some new lovin.

I'd like to kick this topic off with a case study. Many Americans have held Lance Armstrong up as a hero and we have been proud of his accomplishments. Based on his behavior over the past 2 years, in my mind he has become the poster child of what is wrong with the traditional family. Mr. Armstrong, father of 3, recovered from cancer to resume his professional cycling career and win the Tour d' France, what 6 times? In September of 2003, after he knew his name would be out of the headlines, the sleazbag slid out like a snake and left his wife, the mother of his children, and the woman who supported him during his cancer, high and dry. Just out of curiousity, who do you guys think was paying the bills when Lance was out riding around before he got a sponsor. Or when he was laid up in a hospital bed. Aaah, gratitude.Selfish git tells wife 'Take a Hike'

Claiming irreconciable differences, he claimed 'we're better friends then ever. We just couldn't get along'. Well, the next year rolled around and we got the whole story. He was all over this little homewrecker: Ms. Sheryl Crow.
Shamless

So, what am I ranting about? I would like to nudge my conservative brethren, and ask them to save some of the moral outrage they seem to feel for gay marriage for people who really deserve it, like this piece of $^!% who left his wife and kids in a very public way. He's no hero of mine, and if you support traditional families, he shouldn't be one of yours either. Like I said in another thread, I hope rides over the side of an Alp and loses his other testicle.

[Fragony]

You don't know what happened behind the scenes, I guess cancer is bad for any relationship. I guess that when someone manages to deal with that, that he feels he has been given something new, even if he allready had it.

[Don Corleone]

If it was just he and his wife, I would agree with you, it'd be none of my business. But the man abandonded his children to go shack up with Ms. Hollywood. Shame on him.

[Fragony]

Probably. But it isn't marriage itselve that screwed up, someone just screwed up his marriage. There is nothing wrong with being traditional, if traditional marriage weren't the real thing it wouldn't be so common in just about every culture I have ever heard of. I just think that americans need a little bit of space to breath, society seems to advocate traditional marriage just a little bit more then is healthy. We take it slower in europe, that high-school sweetheart thing is very rare (in western europe). When people marry here they are more 'ready'for it I think, they have had previous relationships and know how it goes.

[Sjakihata]

The traditional family was 'fu*k*d' as soon as the women began to work actively in the 1970's (at least in denmark, might be different years elsewhere) as men have done. Is it a bad thing? Hell no!

[Ronin]

none of us knows what happened inside that family before they split up so what´s the point of throwing names around?.....in any event it´s better for everyone kids included to have separated parents that can at least get along ok than to have parents that are together but basicaly hate eachother and fight all the time.....if the guy is honoring his economic duties to his kids(that i supose he is since the article doesn´t state otherwise) i have nothing to say on the matter.....personal business is personal buniness.

[Don Corleone]

You guys are missing my point. I'm not saying I expect women in the kitchen wearing aprons. I'm saying, we get all upset about extraneous things, like gay marriage, and we're missing the elephant in the room. The man has no honor, he has been the consumate dirtbag, and because he wins some races, we hold him up as a 'hero'.

Marriage is the most fundamental contract we can make. If you cannot be trusted not to cheat at this, how can your word be accepted on anything?

And abandoning your children? Cause it's the 'right thing for me right now'? Absolutely contemptible and I have no respect for such an dishonorable loser. I also resent the way he and the USPS played the media, timing all of these announcements (including the one about his 'reunion' with his wife in July 2003) to maintain his 'American hero' image. No honor in any of this.

[Fragony]

Well a system is a social contract, and a social contract implies the existance of other individuals. Marriage is such a system, and it works for most but not all. Sometimes it goes wrong but it is just like democracy, just because someone can't handle it doesn't mean it is a bad system. The outrage that is commonly heard, especially with conservatives is a bit too rigid, it takes the system as a handle instead of the individual who is always prone for mistakes. We euro's make exactly the same mistake, but the other way around. We euro's are really liberal fundamentalists.

[JAG]

So Don, explain to me what is actually wrong with people separating? What is so terrible with the fact that people find they have drifted apart, know the situation is different and for the best of all parties - including children involved - if they divorce. What is wrong with that?!

You would prefer for families to have endless,terrible arguments and be torn up from within while putting on the 'happy families' pose to others? That makes no sense to me, it is that kind of situation which breeds the worst upbringings for children.

[Fragony]

So Don, explain to me what is actually wrong with people separating? What is so terrible with the fact that people find they have drifted apart, know the situation is different and for the best of all parties - including children involved - if they divorce. What is wrong with that?!

You would prefer for families to have endless,terrible arguments and be torn up from within while putting on the 'happy families' pose to others? That makes no sense to me, it is that kind of situation which breeds the worst upbringings for children.

He's reflecting on just that JAG, don't ruin it

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Maybe the couple can try to work things out instead of immediately divorcing?

[JAG]

Maybe the couple can try to work things out instead of immediately divorcing?

I really don't think many couples go straight from love to divorce in a day, if you think that happens you really are being naive.

[Fragony]

Maybe the couple can try to work things out instead of immediately divorcing?

It may be better that they work things out before marrying.

[Redleg]

So Don, explain to me what is actually wrong with people separating? What is so terrible with the fact that people find they have drifted apart, know the situation is different and for the best of all parties - including children involved - if they divorce. What is wrong with that?!

absolutely nothing wrong with it if the individuals involved have attempted to resolve the issues that have developed. Many times people divorce because they find that its harder to be married then what they thought. They go into the obligation without a thought other then emotions. Well like any thing - being married carries obligations to not only yourself but your partner and the offspring of the union. Why did they drift apart is what the couple must ask themselves? If they can not find a compiling reason - then they owe it to the children of thier union to fix the drift - not divorce. Now if its because of violence - the spouse not doing the violence owes it to the children and themselves to immediately leave the situation and never allow the individual back into their lives until they show legimate change in their behavior - and even then its questionable.

You would prefer for families to have endless,terrible arguments and be torn up from within while putting on the 'happy families' pose to others? That makes no sense to me, it is that kind of situation which breeds the worst upbringings for children.

No - I would not prefer that - however I would prefer that divorce be a last resort after attempting to fix the union that you entered into. If no children are involved - by all means its just between the two individuals. Once children are in the picture - other factors must be considered besides what just one individual wants.

[Don Corleone]

So Don, explain to me what is actually wrong with people separating? What is so terrible with the fact that people find they have drifted apart, know the situation is different and for the best of all parties - including children involved - if they divorce. What is wrong with that?!

They don't know it's best for all parties. They know it's best for them, and that's what they're doing. I'm calling them out for what they are, a bunch of self-interested, self-absorbed losers that cannot think of anyone but themselves. If it was just two adults parting ways, that's one thing, but 1) this woman supported Lance for a long time and once he gets some fame, he trades up. What's up with that? and 2) There are children involved. If you cannot honor your commitments, you shouldn't be making them.

You would prefer for families to have endless,terrible arguments and be torn up from within while putting on the 'happy families' pose to others? That makes no sense to me, it is that kind of situation which breeds the worst upbringings for children.

That's right Jag. I'm advocating for family distress and violence. I was pretty clear that I thought more screaming and yelling between mommy and daddy was just what the doctor ordered. I'm saying "toughen up. It's not just about you". When you have children, you have a responsiblity to them. And I don't give a rat's ass if you feel like doing it anymore, you owe it to them to stand by them and find a way to make things work. Of course daddy shouldn't be coming home every night drunk cursing his miserable lot in life. He should grow up and make the best of what he's got. He shouldn't have the option of boffing the woman next door and telling his wife 'it was right for him at the time so she needs to just learn how to cope'.

[Redleg]

It may be better that they work things out before marrying.

Yes indeed

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I suggest you go to this thread I posted

LINK

Divorce rates are dropping not increasing. Thankfully conservative ideas are taking hold again here.

[Don Corleone]

Decreasing yes, but not fast enough. What's more, there's no shame associated with being a lying, cheating spouse anymore. I think these people should be publicly exposed and humiliated. Yet, we treat them heroes.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

What's more, there's no shame associated with being a lying, cheating spouse anymore. I think these people should be publicly exposed and humiliated. Yet, we treat them heroes.

Thats a result of too much liberalism. We shouldnt be judgemental remember?

[Fragony]

Decreasing yes, but not fast enough. What's more, there's no shame associated with being a lying, cheating spouse anymore. I think these people should be publicly exposed and humiliated. Yet, we treat them heroes.

You americans have a healthy love for succes, but it tends to blind as well I think. A story like armstrong's gives for a whole lot of 'be all you can be' hard nipples, and you forget he is actually just a person. You guys tend to look for idols, that is the problem.

[Don Corleone]

Well, based on some of the responses I've gotten, perhaps it would be helpful if I stated my particular rant a little more clearly. No, I'm not arguing that couples that cannot get along must find a way to tough it out (though I think they should try a hell of a lot harder than they have in the past).

My big axe to grind is with people that cheat on their spouses. It seems that most of the people posting here are willing to give cheaters a free pass. But I'm not. If I found out somebody I worked with cheated on their spouse, I wouldn't trust them anymore myself.

[Ronin]

I suggest you go to this thread I posted

LINK

Divorce rates are dropping not increasing. Thankfully conservative ideas are taking hold again here.

yes but marriage rates are down......what this means is that you now have a smaller more tradicional base of people that decide to get married....so it´s no surprise that in this reduced starting base you get lower divorce rates......but bottom line the entire picture is you still have less marriages.

[Ronin]

Well, based on some of the responses I've gotten, perhaps it would be helpful if I stated my particular rant a little more clearly. No, I'm not arguing that couples that cannot get along must find a way to tough it out (though I think they should try a hell of a lot harder than they have in the past).

My big axe to grind is with people that cheat on their spouses. It seems that most of the people posting here are willing to give cheaters a free pass. But I'm not. If I found out somebody I worked with cheated on their spouse, I wouldn't trust them anymore myself.

yes...agreed......it is my opinion that we are not biologically prepared to be monogamous.....but if you agree to do so you sure as hell better follow the vows you made...

on your initial post i´m not sure if you example of Lance holds tough...as we don´t know if he was un-faithfull or not.

[Fragony]

My big axe to grind is with people that cheat on their spouses. It seems that most of the people posting here are willing to give cheaters a free pass. But I'm not. If I found out somebody I worked with cheated on their spouse, I wouldn't trust them anymore myself.

Then you hold a certain system higher then people participating in it. Maybe you and your wife are so close that you just can't imagine cheating on her, but what if you don't love her anymore and see the love of your life walking across the street. You know that she is really the one but you are still married, does that make you a bad person? How holy is marriage if it goes beyond it''s purpose which is still just being together, wouldn't it be lying?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

yes but marriage rates are down......what this means is that you now have a smaller more tradicional base of people that decide to get married....so it´s no surprise that in this reduced starting base you get lower divorce rates......but bottom line the entire picture is you still have less marriages.

Divore rates are measured as a percentage of marriages so your post doesnt hold water. It does back up the fact that marriage is on the decline. Again a result of too much liberalism.

[Don Corleone]

Then you hold a certain system higher then people participating in it. Maybe you and your wife are so close that you just can't imagine cheating on her, but what if you don't love her anymore and see the love of your life walking across the street. You know that she is really the one but you are still married, does that make you a bad person? How holy is marriage if it goes beyond it''s purpose which is still just being together, wouldn't it be lying?

I do not hold the system higher than the individual participating in it. I'm holding for honesty. Either people can be monagmous or they cannot. If they can, and they decide to promise somebody else they will be, they should be held to that. I don't agree with 'well, it was just a silly goal in the first place' argument.

If you cannot remain true to one person, don't get married.

Now, if, it turns out you're weak, and you screw up, well, it should be treated as a screwup. You should be ashamed, and you should seek forgiveness. It shouldn't be a question of why the cuckolded spouse has such unrealistic expectations.

[Ronin]

Divore rates are measured as a percentage of marriages so your post doesnt hold water. It does back up the fact that marriage is on the decline. Again a result of too much liberalism.

the fact that divorce rates are a percentage of marriages is precisely my point...

if you have less marriages like you said isn´t it honest to assume that these smaller number of people getting married are more religiously "conservative" so to speak?

all my post was saying is that the lowering divorce rate isn´t a sign of "conservative values" taking over....it´s simply that, if you are starting with a smaller more conservative group , you´ll get less divorces, that doesn´t state that society itself is more conservative....if it was we´d be seeing a rise in marriage numbers.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

If you cannot remain true to one person, don't get married.

This is the main problem. People nowdays get married for the wrong reasons and this idea of love that many mistake for lust wears off quickly when sexual attraction is the main reason you marry.

[Fragony]

It does back up the fact that marriage is on the decline. Again a result of too much liberalism.

If too much liberalism means living the life you don't really want, but live anyway because it is expected then liberalism is a good thing, why prolong something just for the sake of appearance just because society wants you to. There is nothing right about that, at a certain day you will have to look your partner in the eyes and he/she will realise that your whole life has been lived to please (or at least silence) others. We are passionate beings, that is not liberalism that is us. My parents have been togetter all my life, and yes I very much prefer it that way, but if lying to yourselve is the right thing to do there is something very wrong with being right.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

If too much liberalism means living the life you don't really want, but live anyway because it is expected then liberalism is a good thing, why prolong something just for the sake of appearance just because society wants you to

So you think divorce and people living together out of marriage is a good thing? Thats exactly whats wrong with liberalism. Dont you realise the negative effects of this on society and children in particular?