Historical Data for Bi??

[player1]

Well, players can also choose will they fight with their generals or not.

[gardibolt]

Also, from a description of the Bayeux Tapestry:

"Famously the Bayeux Tapestry depicting the Norman conquest of England shows Bishop Odo, bishop of Bayeux, with a club in his hand lashing out against the enemy. The Bishop's rationale for his actions was that it wasn't a sharpened weapon"

http://re-xs.ucsm.ac.uk/cupboard/fil...ays/essay2.htm

[Mongoose]

One bishop...not a group...

Once again, priest's in the following context are fine:

1:retinue(sp?) characters
2:Generals
3:Groups visible beyond the red line
4:Officers

[gardibolt]

Dwight D Eisenhower was never in combat during WWII. But he still carried a gun.

[player1]

One bishop...not a group...

Once again, priest's in the following context are fine:

1:retinue(sp?) characters
2:Generals
3:Groups visible beyond the red line
4:Officers

But doesn't moral boosting group pretty much function as captain or general.

[player1]

Also, from a description of the Bayeux Tapestry:

"Famously the Bayeux Tapestry depicting the Norman conquest of England shows Bishop Odo, bishop of Bayeux, with a club in his hand lashing out against the enemy. The Bishop's rationale for his actions was that it wasn't a sharpened weapon"

http://re-xs.ucsm.ac.uk/cupboard/fil...ays/essay2.htm

So that the reference that used AD&D authors for their clerics.
Good work.

[Colovion]

Pope Julius II led troops into combat both before and after he became pope. From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08562a.htm

No one seemed to think that was at all unusual. And of course, there are the military religious orders, of which there were over a hundred:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10304d.htm

Those are soldiers who devote their actions (or justify them) by their religion. Priests aren't a military order, they are devout civilians. Knights Templar? Fighters first, devout second. Priests? Civilians; non-combatants - only to fight in desperation.

[player1]

Well, priests as shown in this unit are hardly civilians if they go near battle lines, have clubs and pray.

[magnum]

I have never heard nor read anything that would indicate such a ‘priest brigade’ ever existed, at least not on any large scale that would be considered as a military unit. I see them as being very much in line with the Druids from RTW (which was also a unit that CA showed off before launch.) In both cases, I see the unit as representing not so much actual players on the battle field, but a representation of the influence that both groups wielded both on the common people and on the leaders, in terms of morale and whether or not a particular choice was just and/or wise.

As to their reality/fantasy, I think that would be very hard to show either way with ‘hard facts.’ At best one must make some conjectures as to their place. I have no doubt that throughout modern Christianity that priest have participated in battle. It is also possible that priest participated during the time that BI occurred. The specific prohibition against a priest shedding blood or taking a life did not become official scripture (Cor 11:26) until the end of the BI time frame, a time period where many ‘versions’ of Christianity were in existence and a struggle was going on as to dominance. As such, versions of Christianity that did not prohibit priest participation in shedding blood and killing might have existed.

By the middle ages, while the church had many military orders, the ranks of these orders were not filled with actual priests, but with feverent faithful (well, usually….hopefully….ok, sometimes.) The bottom line, this was most likely due to the fact that there weren’t that many priests. Add on to that the fact of the immense cost and time required to train someone for the priesthood (indoctrination, reading and writing, history as far as the faith is concerned) and the few priests that did exists certainly would not be wasted in something so risky as a battle. So while a few priests here and there might take up the club (or sickle) it is unlikely in my opinion that they did so in any organized military size groups.

[King of Atlantis]

Pope Julius II led troops into combat both before and after he became pope. From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08562a.htm

many popes lead armies, the Pope was the most powereful man in europe for a long time, of course he would have an army

No one seemed to think that was at all unusual. And of course, there are the military religious orders, of which there were over a hundred:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10304d.htm

Knights Templar can never be considered preist..

Also, from a description of the Bayeux Tapestry:

"Famously the Bayeux Tapestry depicting the Norman conquest of England shows Bishop Odo, bishop of Bayeux, with a club in his hand lashing out against the enemy. The Bishop's rationale for his actions was that it wasn't a sharpened weapon"

http://re-xs.ucsm.ac.uk/cupboard/fi...says/essay2.htm

Your right as i have said through this whole debate there was exeptions ot the rule and im sure you can find some other priest that fought, but not as a standard.

[King of Atlantis]

Well, priests as shown in this unit are hardly civilians if they go near battle lines, have clubs and pray.

Thats the whole point! They should be like civilians that might follow an army, but not be a part of it.

[caesar44]

Just an anecdote - when Stalin was doing the usual things he did (maybe killed some priests or smashed churchs) his assistants said to him "but the pope...he is going to be our enemy..." Stalin asked - "how many divisions the man have"...

What a man he was...

[Mongoose]

Well, priests as shown in this unit are hardly civilians if they go near battle lines, have clubs and pray.

Yes, but they take up an army "slot".

One again, the following would be 100% realistic

1:retinue(sp?) characters
2:Generals
3:Groups visible beyond the red line
4:Officers

But not entire units.

[Brutus]

Not true Saint Peter was the first Bishop of Rome (Pope), followed by Saint Paul.

St. Paul never was bishop of Rome (or pope, for that matter). Both names, Catholic or Orthodox, more or less mean the same and could be used for the most popular form of Christianity in these ages, only later (after the Great Schism of 1054) did they really seperate and Catholic came to signify the Latin, Orthodox the Greek Church per se. In these ages, therefore, the unified leadership of the pope was very much not established and if pursued by a bishop of Rome (certainly not by all), it was very much disputed by the patriarchs of the East (Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria).

[Murmandamus]

Perhaps they would be better as a strategic map unit like MI rather than an army unit?

Put them into other towns like spies to spread christianity and cause rebellion, or merge them with your army to get the battle bonus.

Yes? No?

[lars573]

Oh they are putting in those too don't worry.

[pezhetairoi]

If you're going to put priests in battle, then at least let them be knights-templar lookalikes instead of permitting them to commit sacrilege by using those terrible cricifixes as murder weapons. Crucifixes are icons, not weapons.

Even the Pope needed divisions, not monastic orders, to fight the Crusades.

[HarunTaiwan]

One reason you want the priests on the field....


So your pagan forces can kill or capture them.

Will there be a "sacrafice prisioners" button?

[King of Atlantis]

One reason you want the priests on the field....


So your pagan forces can kill or capture them.

Will there be a "sacrafice prisioners" button?

I hope somebody mods them to change their clubs to bibles and giving them super human stats. Now that would be some fun playing.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Why not go the hole nine yards (which nine yards was meant with that originally btw?) and have them function as onagers as a way of depicting devine intervention on the battlefield.

[Productivity]

It's the same discussion as the Screaming Women. Were women, at some point, moral boosters to their men in battle? Yes. Did they, at times, lend their arms to the battle? Yes. Was it ever done in anything near the way it's portrayed in RTW? Absolutely not.

For those who missed this fine statement the first time. Nobody is denying the existance of priests, just the portrayal of them.

[screwtype]

Put them into other towns like spies to spread christianity and cause rebellion, or merge them with your army to get the battle bonus.

Yes? No?

That's a cool idea Murmandamus. I would support that.

[King of Atlantis]

I think anybody here would support them as an agent, not a unit though.

[pezhetairoi]

you bet. priests are just bad on the battlefield.