How much do pictures like this effect you?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

That is exactly the rationale that the US forces have always used. And would explain why they are so poor at peacekeeping and in civil war situations.

No that is what every rational person does . You take care of you and your first. You cant help anyone if your dead.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

The world isn't fair. I learned that a long time ago, and it prevents me getting too worked up about the picture. Besides, in my beliefs, if the parents where good people, they have nothing to fear, as they're probably in Heaven.

[Divinus Arma]

Hey. You asked me what these pictures make me think and what they do to me.

Here is what I see:

Soldier. Kids Crying. Caption reads: Parents just killed by Soldiers.

Here is what I think in response:

Soldiers killed insurgents. Kids do not understand who their parents are. Good job Soldiers. Keep it up.

As for the kids, what can we do? Nothing. Except make the country stable for their future and ours.

Yay, Soldiers! Kill the enemy without discrimination. Kill them all.

Sheet of glass, baby. Sheet of glass.

[PanzerJaeger]

What if it had been a picture of two American kids in Utah crying while their mother held a letter she had just received that began "The Department of Defence regrets to inform you that..."?

Would that have been enough to "play" you?

No, I dont let emotions get in the way of logic. Personal tradgedy is just that - personal. It has no effect on what I think about the greater context in which it occured.

Only the weak are affected by such visuals. If a person did not know the tradgedy of war before they saw the picture, he is simply too sheltered and shouldnt even be allowed to hold an opinion on war, as he knows so little about it.

But if you'd like a canned response, here you go.

This is horrible. I feel so bad. America is a horrible country.

[Steppe Merc]

Idaho, I deffinetly see what you mean.

Yes it would because I care about americans.

Americans take a pledge of allegiance to the United states...not the world

After americans I care about our allies after that I don't mind as much(I still care but not near as much)



Think of it this way

You care about your family(america) then your friends(allies) then strangers (every one else)

There is nothing about Americans that make us special. We live in a certaint part of the world. Wahoo. I know a whole bunch of people that are idiots (and Americans). Nothing special about them, except that they live in America.

It is not the soldiers fault it's a war....people will always die in wars.

Fine. In that case, you should be getting angry at George Bush and his all those damn lying politicians that got us into this, because it's their fault. And when soldiers kill people, it is their responsibility. Perhaps it was the right thing to do. But it is still them that pulled the trigger, and the blame is on their shoulders as well.

It is a war there will be accidents and a few crimes....there is no way to change that.....MAYBE INSTEAD OF CARING ABOUT THE INSURGENT you should care about the american children who were turned into orphans because of that insurgent you seem to like so much.

A. There is no proof that he is an insurgent.
B. Perhaps he felt he was protecting those little kids by fighting Americans. Would you be all happy if France invaded to over throw George Bush and liberate us?
C. American kid, Iraqi kid, they are all innocent kids whose life is really screwed up because of the morons who cause wars.
D. Someone being a soldier does not make them special in my eyes. They are no better or worse than a normal person, because they are normal people.
E. If the man killed was a terrorist (different from an insurgent, mind), then he was an evil bastard. And if on the extremely unlikely chance that some soldier killed him for no reason, than that soldier is a bastard (it is unlikely, but certaintly possible, as Red pointed out). If he was trying to kill the soldier, than that is justified.
F. But in the end, regardless of whether the fathers were bastards, the children really are, and that is a sad thing, no matter what.

Red and Gawain, thanks for your views. I don't agree with you always, or often, but its nice (well, sort of, if you know what I mean...) to know that people who have seen combat are still affected by things like this.

[Samurai Waki]

War sucks. Deal with it. Accidents happen, and an incident like that where I shot an innocent and left his children abandoned would haunt me for the rest of my life.

The picture itself doesn't necessarily bring about any emotions though.

[Divinus Arma]

By the way, I thought I would ask:

How do pictures like this make you feel?

[scooter_the_shooter]

The one of the guy jumping out of the building effected me the most..... I heard people did that on 911.... but never saw a clear picture of it.


Those pictures make me glad that afghanistan was attacked.

[Divinus Arma]

its nice (well, sort of, if you know what I mean...) to know that people who have seen combat are still affected by things like this.

And what about me? I've seen plenty of death. Had a Marine die right in front of me after his drunk buddy smashed in his guts via vehicle (his blood pumping in and out during CPR like a jelly donut). Also held an innocent girl's warm-blooded fresh corpse in my arms while her best friend screamed in the background and her other best friend sat behind her with no forehead (just blood pouring into her eyes). Or how about all the amputees I've seen in Afghanistan? Or wait, what about being shot at and driving through minefields and ambush points?

None of that qualifies me to speak on the horrors of violence?

Steppe Merc, I know you are a relatively open guy with left-leanings, but it is not the left who feels the pain. They "imagine" the pain. And there is no comparison, I assure you.

I've prayed. I've cared.

And it is not that I am dead or cold to human suffering. Instead I am realistic about it. And I understand that a million dead terrorists are not worth a single dead American. It is our true, heartfelt idealism and desire for peace that seperates the West from the prehistoric mindset of these thugs.

We want peace. But we are willing to kill in order to obtain a just and lasting peace.

[Divinus Arma]

The one of the guy jumping out of the building effected me the most..... I heard people did that on 911.... but never saw a clear picture of it.


Those pictures make me glad that afghanistan was attacked.

I imagine that his family would recognize him. Wouldn't you?

I don't need to wonder how his wife and parents felt.

Instead I ACT so that my fellow countrymen will never feel what his wife felt when she saw this picture for the first time.

[bmolsson]

I think that we in this thread actually caught the "violence spiral". Revenge after revenge. Stereotyping of enemy. Everyone is guilty and everyone is innocent. The hard part will be to mend the relationship between the enemies. I think that the first step to reconicilation and peace is to forgive and to feel for ALL victims in a conflict. Something most people on both sides in this thread seems to be inable to do..... Sad really......

[Strike For The South]

I do feel sorry for the kids they did nothing but tragides like this happen on both sides ie Sep 11 there is no sense trying to figure out whose right or who is wrong (unless the soldier shot him in cold blood then he should be tried but Im willing to give him the benift of the doubt)because both parties made a snap desicion at the time War is hell and there is no getting around

[Divinus Arma]

I think that we in this thread actually caught the "violence spiral". Revenge after revenge. Stereotyping of enemy. Everyone is guilty and everyone is innocent. The hard part will be to mend the relationship between the enemies. I think that the first step to reconicilation and peace is to forgive and to feel for ALL victims in a conflict. Something most people on both sides in this thread seems to be inable to do..... Sad really......

A non-partisan comment.

But I stand by my former statements.

[JimBob]

Yeah I'm pissed when I see that, I don't blame the soldiers, war is hell and things go wrong. Maybe a new guy panicked, maybe the guy reached for something that looked like a gun, maybe it actually was a gun. It just makes me pissed at leaders who start wars, or make wars neccesary. Bush, Saddam, Rumsfeld, Reagan, Clinton, The Ayahtola, The Shah, the CIA, Carter. Because they're screwing around in power, because of them we have to fight wars, and people die and children are left with nothing. Makes one angry at them all.

[Adrian II]

She is probably crying because the soldiers to daddy the insurgent away I dont feel sorry at all.

Our troops can never be wrong so we are never sorry, huh? That is fascism, ceasar.

[sharrukin]

Yeah I'm pissed when I see that, I don't blame the soldiers, war is hell and things go wrong. Maybe a new guy panicked, maybe the guy reached for something that looked like a gun, maybe it actually was a gun. It just makes me pissed at leaders who start wars, or make wars neccesary. Bush, Saddam, Rumsfeld, Reagan, Clinton, The Ayahtola, The Shah, the CIA, Carter. Because they're screwing around in power, because of them we have to fight wars, and people die and children are left with nothing. Makes one angry at them all.

The first war I was involved in was in grade three, at age 9. The snowplows had made a rather large hill of snow and the high school kids decided the younger kids couldn't play on it. There were about twenty of them, 14 to 16 years old. About a hundred kids from the little school got together and swarmed them. We took the hill!

War is an aspect of what we are, and IMO it evades the truth about human nature to blame it on our leaders. The anti-war slogan “What if they threw a war and nobody came?” Well, it has a germ of truth to it. Somebody always comes. War is not something brought about by the evil designs of a 'Dr Evil'. War is something that men do, and have been doing at least since recorded history began. This should tell us something about ourselves.

Our leaders? Well they lead, and we follow.

[Ironside]

The first war I was involved in was in grade three, at age 9. The snowplows had made a rather large hill of snow and the high school kids decided the younger kids couldn't play on it. There were about twenty of them, 14 to 16 years old. About a hundred kids from the little school got together and swarmed them. We took the hill!

What would happen if someone was really wounded or died in your "war"? Would the other side cheer?

[Papewaio]

Sexy (and violent) images hurt your eyesight

Most of the images were landscape or architectural scenes, but the psychologists included a few emotionally charged images, portraying violent or sexually provocative scenes.

The closer these emotionally charged images occurred prior to the target image, the more frequently people failed to spot the target image, the researchers found.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

What would happen if someone was really wounded or died in your "war"? Would the other side cheer?

In war you cheer because your alive and the enemy is dead. The rush of adrenalin and as they say the thrill of battle take over. Again when the fightings done and you go see what actually happened and that realpeople are dead there is no joy. In fact many are haunted by this for the rest of their lives. Again give our soldiers their due. Their not heartless inhumane killing machines. Not even Div Its they I feel sorry for.

[Goofball]

Only the weak are affected by such visuals. If a person did not know the tradgedy of war before they saw the picture, he is simply too sheltered and shouldnt even be allowed to hold an opinion on war, as he knows so little about it.

I beg to differ. Having been to war and seen firsthand its tragedy, I can assure you that I am not affected by that picture simply because I am too sheltered or ignorant to "even be allowed to hold an opinion on war." Nor am I only affected by it because I am weak, as you postulated.

Allow me to affer an alternative postulate: only the borderline sociopathic have absolutely no emotional response to a picture of children crying because their parents have just been shot to death.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Then you also know Goof that few are affectted more negativly than the soldiers who had to shoot their father and witness the children crying.

[Adrian II]

Only the weak are affected by such visuals. If a person did not know the tradgedy of war before they saw the picture, he is simply too sheltered and shouldnt even be allowed to hold an opinion on war, as he knows so little about it.

You sound as someone who has never even been to a war zone, let alone fought in it.

[KafirChobee]

In war you cheer because your alive and the enemy is dead. The rush of adrenalin and as they say the thrill of battle take over. Again when the fightings done and you go see what actually happened and that realpeople are dead there is no joy. In fact many are haunted by this for the rest of their lives. Again give our soldiers their due. Their not heartless inhumane killing machines. Not even Div Its they I feel sorry for.

Know what, Gawain? You are absolutely right.

However, in this instance it may have been the adrenalin that got the father shot. It is impossible for a soldier to determine in a split second whether something or someone presents a clear and present danger - his training takes over and he always sides on the one of caution (shoot first, ask questions later).

The original example posted simply asked if it had an effect on us. It did for me, I feel empathy for the children. But, not given the entire story of what occured (and the why and wherefore of it) leaves me more curious about it, than disturbed that the husband was purportedly shot. This photo is not worth a 1,000 words, but a 100 questions.

The diversity of opinions concerning it, and that someone felt it necessary to include pictures of 9/11 to stress his point about how seeing an image can force recall issues - demonstrates the absoluteness of somes position concerning the deaths of the innocent. The people that scare me most are those that proclaim they feel nothing when they see such images of Iraqi civilians being shot. Mores the pity for them to assume that our soldiers are always right and anyone that gets in their way wrong.

Right now, turning in your neighbor, or someone you dislike (whether they are or have done anything against the "peace" in Iraq) is a game. Our military is smart enough to do a cursory investigation into allegations before storming the homes of Iraqis'. But, the thing is when a people live in fear and armed men come in and tell them to hide this or that - or else, what choice do they have? Go to the Americans, and assure the deaths of their families by the thugs living clandestintly? We can't prejudge, and yet our troops are put in a position to do so on A daily basis. It is their job, and it will be their nightmares when they are wrong - for some .... even when they are right.

[Kagemusha]

I tought this threads question was:How much do pictures like this effect you?To look at he picture and then tell how do you feel.Now it has turned into who do you feel sorry more Children of Iraqi rebels or US soldiers.

[Redleg]

It is their job, and it will be their nightmares when they are wrong - for some .... even when they are right.

How true is everything you just wrote - especially the last part. Killing another human being in wartime - even from the distance that I was involved with - leaves you with memories that are sometimes very hard to face.

Then there are the memories of policing the battlefield.

Sometimes war is necessary - and Yes I still believe the war in Iraq was necessary - but one should be very careful on not having any empthay toward the innocent victims of war - and sometimes even your enemy. Because to lose your empthay toward them - means you are losing your humanity.

[Goofball]

Then you also know Goof that few are affectted more negativly than the soldiers who had to shoot their father and witness the children crying.

Agreed. I would bet that those soldiers, whether they acted completely within the rules of war or not when (if they actually did) shoot the parents, have just bought themselves about ten or fifteen years on the couch because of seeing the effects of their actions on the children.

[sharrukin]

What would happen if someone was really wounded or died in your "war"? Would the other side cheer?

Probably! At least at first they would. Small kids aren't made of sugar and spice, and everything nice.

We are fascinated by war. This forum is dedicated to Rome: Total War, Medieval: Total War, Shogun: Total War, etc. Did our leaders force us to come here!

I am not saying war is a good thing, but it is a human thing. Our leaders are not to blame. We are!

[Steppe Merc]

War probably is a human thing. But would the people still do it without anyone at all to follow into war? Some, certaintly, but as many?

And about the effects on the soldiers, I have been reading some pretty disturbing articales about the effects of war lately. I've always wondered why people farther back (I know WW1 and 2 had Post Tramatic Stress victims), but why not say the Medieval knights or Parthian cataphracts? Were they just used to it, since most saw far more warfare than any modern soldier, or was it never recongnized? Or both? And what about the less trained fighters who weren't raised from birth to be warriors? Or was it because back then, warfare wasn't nearly as horrid? Or was it, just different?

I hate when I start thinking about weird things like this.

[Tribesman]

This has actually turned into quite an interesting(and honest from sevaral posters) thread .

[Papewaio]

The world isn't fair. I learned that a long time ago, and it prevents me getting too worked up about the picture. Besides, in my beliefs, if the parents where good people, they have nothing to fear, as they're probably in Heaven.

The world is not fair, it is our job to make it more so. To say that something is not fair and that is ok is to be part of the problem not the solution. Nor does it matter if they go to Heaven, we are talking about the here and now.

Saying this I look to trends in things getting better, not absolute standards.