Israeli evacuations from the Gaza Strip

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You mean that the British didnt treat everyone like their brothers? I mean the British were their saviors and brought civilization to these backward nations. So what if they had to kill and oppress and basicly take advantage of them for a century or two? Their better off because of it.

[Steppe Merc]

Gawain, you are quite good at getting me confused.
I'm too tired to argue with you, so I'll just say you've won (whatever it is that was being fought over, I have no idea) and leave it at that.

[Papewaio]

There were no ill feelings by the countries occupied by britain? It was all just a lovely party? Maybe there would be if the subject populations were allowed to have feelings.

The Indians liked the british so much Ghandi begged them to stay, no? And the completely non related indians across a couple of ponds were simply killed if they resisted.

Commonwealth nations such as Canada and Australia like britain because they are run by, and lived in by, a majority of formerly british people! The original peoples were politely stripped of power and made an underclass, if not simply destroyed.

Of course Britain didnt do it like some, but they still continued the precedent of colonizing conquered territory.

Commonwealth Nations:
Antigua and Barbuda (1981)
Australia (19311)
Bahamas (1973)
Bangladesh (1972)
Barbados (1966)
Belize (1981)
Botswana (1966)
Brunei (1984)
Cameroon (1995)
Canada (1931)
Cyprus (1961)
Dominica (1978)
Fiji (19702)
The Gambia (1965)
Ghana (1957)
Grenada (1974)
Guyana (1966)
India (1947)
Jamaica (1962)
Kenya (1963)
Kiribati (1979)
Lesotho (1966)
Malawi (1964)
Malaysia (1957)
Maldives (1982)
Malta (1964)
Mauritius (1968)
Mozambique (1995)
Namibia (1990)
Nauru (2000)
New Zealand (19313)
Nigeria (19604)
Pakistan (19475)
Papua New Guinea (1975)
Saint Kitts and Nevis (1983)
Saint Lucia (1979)
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines (1979)
Samoa (1970)
Seychelles (1976)
Sierra Leone (1961)
Singapore (1965)
Solomon Islands (1978)
South Africa (19316)
Sri Lanka (1948)
Swaziland (1968)
Tanzania (1961)
Tonga (1970)
Trinidad and Tobago (1962)
Tuvalu (1978)
Uganda (1962)
United Kingdom (1931)
Vanuatu (1980)
Zambia (1964)

[Ironside]

A late respond about the comment that Hamas will celebrate it as a victory. Well duh!!

What did you expect them to say? That having a indepent Gaza strip will probably damage thier main powerbase (they had strongest support in the Gaza strip), as the average people will be content with it and don't wanna lose thier freedom due to an intense terror-campaign against Israel. Hamas lives on the "struggle" with Israel and lack of infrastructure (as they appearently give welfare to gain popularity). Remove it, and they will loose power.
But I would recommend a very shut down border for a few years, as Hamas would like to provoke back the current situation.

BTW according to the logic used here, the best way to create a very strong federal USA and a NWO (New World Order) is to create a militant Libertarian movement that is even more against this NWO in the USA. I mean you cannot appease or reward terrorists can you?
Give them some militaristic tendencies (as in wanting a libertarian, but still militaristic state) and you will have to make people pacifists too.

And finally whatever if this ends up good or bad, this should atleast be seen as a attemt to move out of a deadlock that has benefitted neither on either side.

[Idaho]

I want Beirut & Idaho to answer, honestly for once, DOES ISRAEL HAVE A RIGHT TO EXIST?

Well I would have answered sooner - but I have to sleep at nights, and then get up and go to work

Let me try and answer this, and Proletariat's question at the same time.

A better solution than division would be a single state of Israel/Palestine with all citizens having equal rights. Maybe we should have a law that says all houses in all streets must be Arab/Jew/Arab/Jew. Then maybe if we give them all a amnesia drug... er.. and while we are dreaming why not give them all a $1 million each! And a swimming pool... heated - for the winter months.

Israeli's are there, Israel is there. We just ahve to find a way to make it work. Can I answer does it have a right to exist? If I say yes I am effectively saying that the Israeli state as it is, gets my seal of approval. I think there are a few simple changes Israel can make to it's behaviour and constitution and then I will happily endorse it.

Israel has the right to exist once it starts acting decently to all and stops being a racist state. How's that?

[Goofball]

Israel has the right to exist once it starts acting decently to all and stops being a racist state. How's that?

Not very good. Israel is a racist state, eh?

Let's see what great embracers of diversity the Palestinians are:

We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem.

Wow, he managed to get both racism and hegemony all into one statement. Nice.

The Zionists, who excel at false propaganda and misleading media, have had phenomenal success in changing the facts. To do this, they relied on the rule of 'lie and lie until everyone believes you.' They have managed to present themselves to the world as the only victims of the Nazis, excelling at misleading until they turned the greatest of lies into historical truth. I do not mean that they have succeeded in misleading the West and making it believe in the false Holocaust, but that they succeeded in persuading the Western world of the need to market these lies. The West is convinced of this because its interests intersect with those of the Zionist enterprise.

Nothing like a good Holocaust denial. Always makes for good political leadership.

The following quote appeared in the official Palastinian Authority newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, and was delivered during a Friday sermon on Palestinian TV:

The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'

But you're right. The Israelis are the real racists over there...

[Steppe Merc]

Talking rocks? That's just scary.

And I don't see the big deal whether or not Hamas is celebrating. It was a step in the right direction. Whether or not bad people celebrate an action doesn't matter, what the end result does. And that is still up in the air.

[PanzerJaeger]

Commonwealth Nations: bla bla bla

So you are saying all those places welcomed british takeover and enjoyed british occupation? There were no ill-feelings about being forced into the empire? I know for a fact that the natives in America killed and forced off their land by the british didnt particularly appreciate it.

[Colovion]

ethnicity makes people drunk with the idea of nationalism

drunk people do stupid things

as a race, humanity has been drunk for a hell of a long time

It won't be changing any time soon.

[Beirut]

But you're right. The Israelis are the real racists over there...

There is an old story about a father saying to his son; "Show me your friends, and I will tell you what kind of person you are."

Israel was one of apartheid South Africa's very, very few friends. They had a very weapon's oriented friendship. Everything from battle rifles (the Israeli Galil and the South African R4 are the same rifles) up to nuclear weapons. That kind of friendship says things about the people involved.

[Goofball]

There is an old story about a father saying to his son; "Show me your friends, and I will tell you what kind of person you are."

Israel was one of apartheid South Africa's very, very few friends. They had a very weapon's oriented friendship. Everything from battle rifles (the Israeli Galil and the South African R4 are the same rifles) up to nuclear weapons. That kind of friendship says things about the people involved.

Here's an even better saying (it's not old, because I'm coining it right now):

A reading from the Book of Goofball:

Reader: "When a nation's state newspaper and television station broadcast messages telling their citizens to kill people of another race or religion with the aim of wiping that race/religion of the face of the Earth, then that nation is morally bankrupt."

Officiant: "The Word of the Lord."

Congregation: "Thanks be to Goofball."

[Crazed Rabbit]

The Ohio Teacher's Union was also one of the friends of South Africa, investing heavily in that country. Are they racist? No, they were just putting their money where they could get the best return. Likewise, Israel did not support racism, they were just looking for help in a world where Europe had been completly duped by soviet and arab propaganda.

"Show me your friends, and I will tell you what kind of person you are."

It's ironic a supporter of the Palestinians, where the PLO was created by the KGB, Arafat was instructed on how to decieve the west by KGB chiefs, and the Soviet Union, the truly evil empire, gave military support to the Arabs, tries to call Israel racist since they had dealings with a racist state. Heck, I doubt very much Israel and S.A. were friends, just 2 countries looking out for themselves.

As to this withdrawel; it won't stop the Palestinian terrorists. They will claim victory and this will only swell their ranks. Abbas does not want to stop the terror-he caves in all the time to the terrorists and tips them off when he can.

Crazed Rabbit

[Papewaio]

So you are saying all those places welcomed british takeover and enjoyed british occupation? There were no ill-feelings about being forced into the empire? I know for a fact that the natives in America killed and forced off their land by the british didnt particularly appreciate it.

No I am saying that after the British left they still want to be friends... unlike the way people felt about the German takeovers... can you understand the difference in attitude wells from a difference in the way the nations took over land?

[PanzerJaeger]

No I am saying that after the British left they still want to be friends... unlike the way people felt about the German takeovers... can you understand the difference in attitude wells from a difference in the way the nations took over land?

What does that have to do with the precident of colonizing conquered land - which was the original post?

And I wouldnt say there was much love for the English in many parts of the world after the way they treated their subject populations.

[Mongoose]

If Palestine does not want to have it's land stolen, they shouldn't start wars with nations that are stronger then them. IMO Israel should keep the land.


how ever, if this DOES result in peace, i will support it. If the ings continue, then i think it's time for Palestine to either take action against hamas or be destroyed by Israel.

Just my 2 cents...

[Papewaio]

What does that have to do with the precident of colonizing conquered land - which was the original post?

And I wouldnt say there was much love for the English in many parts of the world after the way they treated their subject populations.

If you are refering to World War 2, thats a terrible distortion of the truth. There was no worldwide response to "Living Space". It was a response to an aggressive Germany.

People have been colonizing land they conquered since the begining of history. Look at the British Empire.

First you tried to state there was no worldwide response to Nazi aggression in the form of living space... WWII was about as stern a response as possible.

Second you tried to give moral equivalence to Nazi Germany's mass murder of civilian populations to that of the British colonisation. You keep saying that the people from British colonies hate the British, which I keep pointing out that many nations are quite friendly with Britain and have sent troops to fight with the British. The British SAS has members from throughout the Commonwealth, The Commonwealth games is still very popular.

Compare this with how the nations that where invaded by Nazi Germany feel about that occupation.

You are trying to compare vinegar with wine... same base ingredients, different outcome because of different handling.

[Soulforged]

If Palestine does not want to have it's land stolen, they shouldn't start wars with nations that are stronger then them. IMO Israel should keep the land.


how ever, if this DOES result in peace, i will support it. If the ings continue, then i think it's time for Palestine to either take action against hamas or be destroyed by Israel.

Just my 2 cents...

Well that's a problem...can you say with certainty who started the war?

[King Henry V]

What does that have to do with the precident of colonizing conquered land - which was the original post?

And I wouldnt say there was much love for the English in many parts of the world after the way they treated their subject populations.

Not much love for the English per se, but plenty of love for the railways, roads, laws, unity, government that they brought and left behind. As for the Red Indians who you mentioned before, it is true that they were killed and driven from their lands. But it is also true that the British signed a treaty with them halting all expansion past the Appalachian Mountains. This was one of the reasons why the Colonies rose up in rebellion: the Americans wanted to expand to the West.

[Beirut]

If Palestine does not want to have it's land stolen, they shouldn't start wars with nations that are stronger then them. IMO Israel should keep the land.

The Palestinian's land was stolen before there was any war. The UN carved up Palestine like a roast and gave half to the Zionists, who's leaders, by the way, made very clear statements prior to the partition that they had every intention of taking the rest of the country by force one they raised their own army.

This poppycock of the Zionists wanting to share and live in peace is aftermarket propaganda. They had every intention of armed conflict and conquest before Israel was even created.

[Idaho]

Not very good. Israel is a racist state, eh?

Let's see what great embracers of diversity the Palestinians are:

Wow, he managed to get both racism and hegemony all into one statement. Nice.

Nothing like a good Holocaust denial. Always makes for good political leadership.

The following quote appeared in the official Palastinian Authority newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, and was delivered during a Friday sermon on Palestinian TV:

But you're right. The Israelis are the real racists over there...

Irrelevant misdirection. I criticise Israel so you go and dig up random quotes from the other side. How does that in any way answer for Israel's actions? I'd be interested to hear who published those quotes. I have a feeling that you probably got them all from the same website.

[King Henry V]

No it must be said that the Palestinian people are one of the most tolerant in the world. Only last January they overwhelmingly voted in the Gaza municipal elections fron that great bastion of peace and understanding, Hamas. 75 out of the 118 seats went to Hamas. Hamas' aim, according to the Council on Foreign Relations website " Hamas combines Palestinian nationalism with Islamic fundamentalism. Its founding charter commits the group to the destruction of Israel, the replacement of the PA with an Islamist state on the West Bank and Gaza, and to raise “the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.” Its leaders have called suicide attacks the “F-16” of the Palestinian people. Hamas believes “peace talks will do no good,” Rantisi said in April 2004. 'We do not believe we can live with the enemy.'" What kind and gentle people.

[Soulforged]

The Palestinian's land was stolen before there was any war. The UN carved up Palestine like a roast and gave half to the Zionists, who's leaders, by the way, made very clear statements prior to the partition that they had every intention of taking the rest of the country by force one they raised their own army.

This poppycock of the Zionists wanting to share and live in peace is aftermarket propaganda. They had every intention of armed conflict and conquest before Israel was even created.

Agree. Tough following the zionists, the state of Israel has always exited "in their hearts" because they were a nation spread up, so this will mean that the palestinians are the same case, and in some way they stolen the land to an ideal Israeli state ( ). This is what happens when you play with your friends defying reality. Now the authorities that achieved the state with the help of certain "friends", are making the people pay for their actions. The Jews should have stayed in their places around the world...

[Goofball]

Irrelevant misdirection.

From the Idaho dictionary:

Irrelevant misdirection = Information that does not fit with what Idaho wants to believe.

I criticise Israel so you go and dig up random quotes from the other side. How does that in any way answer for Israel's actions? I'd be interested to hear who published those quotes. I have a feeling that you probably got them all from the same website.

Just to humor you, IIRC the info I have posted came mostly from Wikipedia. I'm sorry if you think they are biased. But I don't know how bias can possibly come into play with direct quotes.

At any rate, since you don't seem to have made the connection, here is why the info I posted was relevant:

Both you and Beirut are more than happy to skewer the Israelis, calling them a racist state, and accusing them of wanting to take over the entire area by force of arms (ironic, that, since they are currently giving up territory), but both of you seem to ignore the following facts:

The stated goal of Hamas, which is the most popular political party among Palestinians (and not just the extremists, Hamas is popular with the mainstream, as is evident from the last elections) is the complete destruction of the state of Israel.

Secondly, as I may have mentioned already , the main newspaper and television station of the "legitimate" Palestinian Authority issues edicts calling on Muslims to murder Jews and eradicate them.

Yet both you and Beirut are insistant that the Palestinians want nothing more than a peaceful place to live and that the Israelis are the bad guys.

Talk about blind.