Byzantium Total War

[edyzmedieval]

Meneldil is right...

It doesn't.

Good news, our first update is ready.

[hellas1]

Dear Edyz,

I do agree with what you say.
Besides, you did mention that they would be in some campaign or rather! ;)
What an odd geographic placement & time it must have been for our relatives!

P.S.
Have you experienced this?:
I have BI on a 2.4 ghz, 512 mb ram, 128mb ram nvidia card and the game lags!
Why? I thought my specs were enough?

Can you help me with this?
If this doesn't get rectified, Byzantium won't work either! That's why I ask.

Se efharisto, para poli.

Long Live Greece! Long Live Byzantium Total War!

[Byzantine Mercenary]

My PC has almost the same specks but works fine with rome RTR 5.4 and the barbarian invasion demo, maybee you need to lower the graphics settings

[Csatadi]

Hungary
======
In 976 Hungary is a principality but a kingdom from 1000. Maybe the Hungary name will be the best.

The nomad Magyars lived in tents called jurta, plural jurták. This is important to all the 'buildings'. I suggest some of the starting buildings should be tents, but the upgrades must be buildings.

Christian, Orthodox and pagan temples can be built giving the player the chance to choose. In the 11th century there were pagan revolts, therefore there were pagan people.
I suggest Level 3 Catholic temple is needed to build the 4th level palace and 4th level Catholic temple to 5th level palace. Therefore the player has some motivation to choose the western Christianity which was the historical way.

The pagan shrines are:
- Shrine to Úristen (+10 happiness, requires town), Sacred groove of Úristen (+20 happiness, requires large town), Sanctuary of Úristen (+30 happiness, requires city).
Note: the old god were called later 'the god of the Magyars'. We don't know any personal name to Him, maybe He hadn't any.
- Shrine to Boldogasszony (+10 happiness, requires town), Sacred groove of Boldogasszony (+20 happiness, requires large town), Sanctuary of Boldogasszony (+30 happiness, requires city).
Note: Úristen means word by word 'Godlord', Boldogasszony means 'Happywoman'. We have only traces of the old religion.
If you use the RTW type shrines Úristen should be a law-type god, and Boldogasszony a fertility or mother type goddess with public health bonus.
Note: Ancillary (priests to both): Táltos (+1 influence, +1 public health).

- Forest clearings 5 levels
- Paths, Mud roads
Note: does they mean the basic roads? I suggest level 1 roads. In the middle ages there were very bad roads in Europe.
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
[Transylvania had rich salt and gold mines but I suppose you learnt about it in your school…]
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
NOTE: these buildings are not typical medieval ones, but if other factions can build them, also the Magyars must be able too.
- all type of walls
- Practise target [may called also Bowmaker] (+1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp), Masters of Archery (+3 missile weapon xp)
Note: I put here the 3rd level. It does not need Bowmaker.
NOTE: These buildings are used in Vikings and F.
- Muster field (something town watch, peasants)
- Stables Magyar warriors {Magyar vitézek} [light horse archers, reflex bow, no armor, spontoon {fokos}, fast, good stamina, ZOR in Hungary], Lancemen {Kopjások} [medium cavalry, SWORD, reflex bow, lance, shield], Chosen Magyar Warriors {Válogatott magyar vitézek} [SWORD and bow, very-very good leather armour, elite, good stamina, ZOR in Hungary].
Knights {Lovagok}: western –Saxon- type knight unit. They should be cost 20% more or less in numbers than their reasonable value and +1 turn recruiting time.
NOTE: I don't see any reason separate the Magyar, Kabar and Székely horse archers. In the text of the Warriors can be written to mention their nations.

- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables)
NOTE: These buildings are used in Vikings and F.
- Siege engineer

and other general European things.
No university!

Symbolizing the Magyars who remain in the eastern Steppes there can be Magyar rebels.

See also: Hungarian history 1038-1301
http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01955/html/

Hungarian prehistory from the beginnings to king St. Stephen (1038)
http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01993/html/

This is the oldest banner we know. But in the earliest version there wasn't a base under the cross. This isn't historically correct yet but I don't know better.
http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01993/html/index139.html

The chronicles say Saint Stephen went to battle under the banner of St. George and St. Martin. Maybe a warrior on flag?
But in the age of Géza (historically Gyejcsa, or Gyeücsa or Geisza or Décsa :-), ruler to 997) there wasn't any flag very likely.
There is a fiction with a turul (a kind of falcon) on red background, which is surely just a dim idea.

[edyzmedieval]

Thanks very much Csatadi!!!

The information is very useful. Thanks.
We have begun work on the other tech trees.

[SIGNIFER,LEGIOVIICLAUDIA]

I think,there must be albanians as mercenary unit and as a regular unit at the service of Despotate of Epirus.
They can also be hired as mercenaries by Venice and Genoa and by whoever has the regions of modern-day Albania..

[SIGNIFER,LEGIOVIICLAUDIA]

[QUOTE=Csatadi]Hungary
======
In 976 Hungary is a principality but a kingdom from 1000. Maybe the Hungary name will be the best....

- Stables Magyar warriors {Magyar vitézek} [light horse archers, reflex bow, no armor, spontoon {fokos}, fast, good stamina, ZOR in Hungary], Lancemen {Kopjások} [medium cavalry, SWORD, reflex bow, lance, shield], Chosen Magyar Warriors {Válogatott magyar vitézek} [SWORD and bow, very-very good leather armour, elite, good stamina, ZOR in Hungary].
Knights {Lovagok}: western –Saxon- type knight unit. They should be cost 20% more or less in numbers than their reasonable value and +1 turn recruiting time.
NOTE: I don't see any reason separate the Magyar, Kabar and Székely horse archers. In the text of the Warriors can be written to mention their nations.

Are the Szekely not the descendants of the Huns and the Avars?I 've read that they inhabited the region of Transylvania after being expelled from Pannonia by the Carolingian army?

[Csatadi]

Are the Szekely not the descendants of the Huns and the Avars?I 've read that they inhabited the region of Transylvania after being expelled from Pannonia by the Carolingian army?

The reality is we don't know the origin of the Székely people. Maybe they were Bulgarians (eskils), or other turk tribe e.g. khabar. Who knows it exactly nowadays? The Hun heritage is a popular idea, and some people think the whole Magyar nation are from the Huns. Interesting idea. But there isn't anybody who really knows the reality. These theories are only fictions.

Be aware Huns and Avars were different people!

The Székelys guarded the borders in Transylvania and the western countryside. They spoke and speak Magyar and there isn't any trace of other language. It doesn't mean they spoke Magyar all the time.
Their military units were light cavalry but almost the entire Magyar army was light cavalry with the same weapons.

[edyzmedieval]

Good info.

Also, the tech tree for the Byzantines is done.
Will post it tommorrow.

[blindfaithnogod]

a quick look a couple of the unit rosters

Early
Byzantines

• Infantry
  • Phylakes(urban militia)
    large shield and spear
  • Evzones guardsmen
    ?
  • Skoutatoi
    spear, kite shield, chainmail
  • Epirote Infantry
    spear, kite shield, chainmail(similar to skoutatoi, only available in epirus)
  • Kontaratoi
    pike, kite shield, chainmail
  • Paramonai
    sword, kite shield, helmet and little else
  • Menevlatoi
    long spear or polearm, small round shield, chainmail
  • Dismounted Kataphraktoi
    sword, kite shield, chainmail and scale armour
  • Varangian Guard
    double handed axe, round shield, chainmail
• Skirmishers
  • Psiloi
    slings
  • Psiloi toxotai
    bow, sword and light armour
  • Peltastoi
    shield, javelins, sword
  • Peltastoi Enoplioi
    shield, javelins, sword(heavier javelineer)
  • Mourtatoi
    bow, sword, chainmail
• Cavalry
  • Trapezountioi
    horse archers from trebizond
  • Latinikon Tagmata
    frankish knights
  • Hippeis Toxotai
    horse archers
  • Stratiotai
    ?
  • Kataphraktoi
    bow, chainmail, sword, full horse barding
  • Athanatoi
    lance, chainmail and small shield
  • Klibanophoroi
    lance, sword, small shield, chainmail, full horse barding
  • Tagmata Klibanophoroi
    heavier more skilled Klibanophoroi
  • Tagmata Kataphraktoi
    heavier more skilled Kataphraktoi

Bulgars

• Infantry
  • Urban militia
    ?
  • Slav spearmen
    spear and shield and little else
  • Slav swordsmen
    sword and shield and little else
  • Bulgar Spearmen
    spear, round shield, chainmail
  • Bulgar Swordsmen
    sword, round shield, chainmail
  • Bulgar Pagan Infantry
    sabre, round shield, chainmail
  • Chimnnik
    hook, sword, kite shield(like western foot knights)chainmail and scale
• Skirmishers
  • Slav bowmen
    very basic acher, bow and short sword
  • Slav javelinmen
    javelins, short sword, and shield
  • Bulgar Archers
    bow and sword chainmail
  • Bulgar Elite Archers
    bow and sword chainmail and scale
• Cavalry
  • Zera
    basically mounted archers with chain mail and a sword
  • Bulgar Light cavalry
    armed with chain mail, lance and sword
  • Bagatur
    scale armour and chainmail, javelin and axe, hopefully we can make these throw their spear before charging. some horse barding
  • Bulgar Boyar
    mounted archer, armed with scale and chainmail, sword and bow. some horse barding

Holy Roman Empire

• Infantry
  • Feudel men at arms
    chain mail, shield and sword
  • Swabian swordsmen
    2 handed sword and chain mail
  • Feudel foot knights
    chain mail, shield and sword
  • Spearmen
    spear and shield, no armour
  • Feudel sergents
    spear and sheild, light armour
  • Militia Sergents
    polearm and good armour
• Skirmishers
  • Thuringian Archers
    powerful archers, bow and sword
  • Archers
    bow and dagger
  • Paviese Crossbow
    just add a shield
  • Crossbows
    crossbow and dagger
• Cavalry
  • Royal knights
    lance and shield, heavy armour
  • Mounted crossbows
    the name says it all
  • mounted sergents
    ance and shield, light armour

[edyzmedieval]

Thanks blindfaith.

Here's some good news:
The faction list has been completely changed. Check page 1.

We are waiting your suggestions.

[hellas1]

Hi again folks,

I commend any and everyone working on this mod, everything I've seen is beautiful and kick butt too.

It's good to see the changes in the factions. They reflect more of what was happening at those specific time periods.

Here is some historical food for thought everyone to "play" with:
Phanariotes were a kind of freedom fighter per se. So, perhaps a plus in their strenth, zeal and stamina should be added.

The seljuk turks were driven out by the ottomans and of course the byzantines "worked" on them too around what, 10th or 11th century? Eventually eliminating them. They got crunched from both ends!
That should be reflected in game, when blurbs come up as an ex. "Celtic faction has been destroyed/eliminated".

The byzantine emperors were very much influence by the 5 patriarchies I mentioned earlier. I hope the mod reflects this. Perhaps this can be a type of sub-senate per se?

Lastly friends, I was thinking about Naptha, Siege weapons like the trebuchet, yes the byzantines used it, and called it the "triboutseto" and giant ballista, etc. The byzantines from my research did use these, but not the trebuchet so much.

Just things to mentally munch on, all!
No Disrespect or Belittling meant to ANYONE!

Long Live BTW! Long Live Greece!

[Seleukos]

Hellas1 ! my Greek friend from US.
Phanariotes were not fighters-they were an elite of scholars,who lived in Constantinopolis and came out after the 16th -17th century.
The seljucs were weakened much after they defeat by the mongols (koesedag 1242),not the ottomans.

Finally i dont think the Patriarchate could be a senate-the Emperor was responisble for all political acts and for war and peace.

Anyway,its good reading Greek history!

[edyzmedieval]

Hey guys.

Work is going great. New units, and new research.
The Phanariotes were in the 17th century, in Romania. They were the rulers of Romania, imposed by the Ottoman Empire.

The Seldjuk's will eventually dissapear in 1328.
They will be replaced by the Ottoman Empire.

[Csatadi]

Instead of ’something town watch’ I wrote earlier I suggest this to Hungary:
Várőrség (Castle guards) - they can have spears, shields and leather armour. Low stats, they are only for town watch not for fight. The Magyar army was cavalry.

I suggested swords to the Magyar vitézek, but nobody will know if they get sabres. This way you can use the AOVAF models easily.

[SIGNIFER,LEGIOVIICLAUDIA]

a quick look a couple of the unit rosters

Early
Byzantines

• Infantry
• Cavalry
  • Trapezeountae
    horse archers from trebizond
  • Latinikon Tagmata
    frankish knights
  • Hippeis Toxotai
    horse archers
  • Stratiotai
    ?
  • Kataphraktoi
    bow, chainmail, sword, full horse barding
  • Athanatoi
    lance, chainmail and small shield
  • Klibanophoroi
    lance, sword, small shield, chainmail, full horse barding
  • Tagmata Klibanophoroi
    heavier more skilled Klibanophoroi
  • Tagmata Kataphraktoi
    heavier more skilled Kataphraktoi
    

There should also exist the Akritai,light cavalry that can be dismounted,armoured with swords,bows and maces(mace=apelatikion).These people were farmer-soldiers(yeomen) that guarded the eastern borders of Byzantium(like the limitanei in the earlier uears of Eastern Roman history).

[edyzmedieval]

Thanks for the suggestion.
We'll take it into account.

@Csatadi

We'll use AOVAF models. We have an alliance with them.

[hellas1]

Hi all,

Wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!!
OWWWWWWWWW!
I'm happy for everyone.

I try to be historically correct and am not proud enough to be corrected!

Major Siege weapons: Great crossbows, Trebuchets, Mangonels, Siege towers, Naptha?

My ideas of the stratoiotes should be a type of intermediate infantry fighter or fighter/archer infantryman in other words.
I see a great many "heavy" units.

Some little nibbles to chew on all:
What about more mercs, ex. Venetians? the evzones, from my understanding, were an elite fighting group and maybe should be catered stat-wise as such.

Edyz, will dynastic reigns be implemented or merely the "Eras' per se? Ex. Paleologoi, Komnenoi, Romanoi, etc vs. Early, High, etc periodsor will the eras include the dynastic reigns? Only thinking out loud.

Long live O Basileus, Long live all the contributors to this mod! Long Live BTW!
Without Ellas & what it gave, would there be a Rome?

[Csatadi]

@Csatadi

We'll use AOVAF models. We have an alliance with them.

Yes, I know.
But you must use also knight units which are not in the time of Vikings.
And the slav warriors I suggested there are not suitable to this era. Maybe they are historically uncorrect also in 843 but also there must be some infantry guard unit.
In Vikings Magyars are a Steppen culture but in your mod Hungary is between paganism and Christianism. And probably Christianity will win.

[edyzmedieval]

I try to be historically correct and am not proud enough to be corrected!

Major Siege weapons: Great crossbows, Trebuchets, Mangonels, Siege towers, Naptha?

Some little nibbles to chew on all:
What about more mercs, ex. Venetians? the evzones, from my understanding, were an elite fighting group and maybe should be catered stat-wise as such.

Edyz, will dynastic reigns be implemented or merely the "Eras' per se? Ex. Paleologoi, Komnenoi, Romanoi, etc vs. Early, High, etc periodsor will the eras include the dynastic reigns? Only thinking out loud.

I am thinking on the siege engines. I am doing the tech trees and some other things like campmap and basic coding....
So, I am thinking what to include.

Hellas, your idea is excellent, with the dynasties. If the team accepts it, then we will have dynasties.

I will bring on a list of mercs. We have it made over at the Imperium forum.

@Csatadi
I'll post the Hungarian tech tree, and we'll see what we haven't got it right.

Thanks!!!

[SIGNIFER,LEGIOVIICLAUDIA]

Be aware Huns and Avars were different people!

The Székelys guarded the borders in Transylvania and the western countryside. They spoke and speak Magyar and there isn't any trace of other language. It doesn't mean they spoke Magyar all the time.
Their military units were light cavalry but almost the entire Magyar army was light cavalry with the same weapons.

Csatadi,thank you for the historical information.I knew that the Szekelys are closely related to the Magyar nation,I did not know however that they speak only Magyar.I thought that they speak some other language.

[SIGNIFER,LEGIOVIICLAUDIA]

Hellas, your idea is excellent, with the dynasties. If the team accepts it, then we will have dynasties.

This idea is very good.

In the Byzantine Empire there were several families like the Komnenoi,Angeloi,Focas,Dalassenoi,Dukes that formed the military aristocracy.They had great estates in the eastern Asia Minor and for centuries they gave great men to the empire.Their extermination by the Seljouk Turks marked the start of the end for the Empire.The Empire not only lost the rich and productive lands of Asia Minor but also lost the families that had given ledendary commanders and skillfull diplomats in the past.
I suggest that there are families in the game contesting for power,just like in RTW.I also suggest that there are women emperors.This means that when there are no male successors to the throne,but ther are daughters,then there should be an Empress,like Irene the Athenian,Theofano,Anna Komnene etc.
Also when one dynasty is wiped out of the game should not end but there should be a civil war and the player must be asked to support one of the generals.

[edyzmedieval]

This idea is very good.

Also when one dynasty is wiped out of the game should not end but there should be a civil war and the player must be asked to support one of the generals.

There's another good idea.

I'll discuss with the team, along with the progress.
But, we'll have to do some real coding to find out if it works....

[kataphraktoi]

Questions:
Will all Tagmatic Divisions included in the unit list like the Scholae, Excubitores, Numeri, the Hetaireia, etc, etc, etc?

Other additional tagmatic groups *but possibly redundant by 976)
Ikanatoi (Hicanati) - elite cavalry
Immortals - under Ioannis Tzshemeshagh
Ethiopian regiment - Negro bodyguards

Other groups of soldiers that settled in empire and possibly still existing in 976:
Persian Tagmata - descendants of Khurramite heretics who converted to Christianity and settled aorund Paphlagonia and later dispersed around the empire.
Banu Habib - Arab tribes who converted to Christianity recently

Other lesser known and possibly redundant mercenary elite regiments include:
Maglavites (Mahgribi Western Muslim cavalry)
Pharganoi (Slaves bought from the Ferghana region)

Another interesting unit during the Comnenan period:
A small English regiment that survived Hastings were given a commission by Alexius to settle the ravaged region of modern day Dobrudja in ROmania.

[edyzmedieval]

Thanks Kataphraktoi.

Never heard of them though, have to research some more to confirm your sources....

As for the Tagmatic, yeah. It's a problem with this. We need to find more guys for the Tagmatic feature.

Thanks anyways.

And some news.
We are preparing the second update. So far, 6 new units have been made, and some small work regarding the campmap.

[kataphraktoi]

Hicanati
Ethiopian regiment
Maghlavites

in Osprey Byzantine armies 886-1118

Immortals
Pharganoi
Banu Habib

in John Julius Norwich's trilogy - particularly in the Apogee

Persian Tagmata (not the same as the Tagmata of the capital but Tagmata as in a body of troops/division)

in Treadgold's Byzantine State and Society

Another thing I was wondering about: will there be Solenarions? initially I mistook it for crossbows but they are heavy darts used by foot archers.

[Seleukos]

will there be Solenarions? initially I mistook it for crossbows but they are heavy darts used by foot archers.

Solenas (pron .solinas) in greek means tube. So they should fire darts with a blowtube or something like that.

[Seleukos]

a quick look a couple of the unit rosters

Early
Byzantines

• Infantry
  • Phylakes(urban militia)
    large shield and spear
  • Evzones guardsmen
    ?
  • Skoutatoi
    spear, kite shield, chainmail
  • Epirote Infantry
    spear, kite shield, chainmail(similar to skoutatoi, only available in epirus)
  • Kontaratoi
    pike, kite shield, chainmail
  • Paramonai
    sword, kite shield, helmet and little else
  • Menevlatoi
    long spear or polearm, small round shield, chainmail
  • Dismounted Kataphraktoi
    sword, kite shield, chainmail and scale armour
  • Varangian Guard
    double handed axe, round shield, chainmail
• Trapezeountae
  horse archers from trebizond
• Latinikon Tagmata
  frankish knights
• Hippeis Toxotai
  horse archers
• Stratiotai
  ?
• Kataphraktoi
  bow, chainmail, sword, full horse barding
• Athanatoi
  lance, chainmail and small shield
• Klibanophoroi
  lance, sword, small shield, chainmail, full horse barding
• Tagmata Klibanophoroi
  heavier more skilled Klibanophoroi
• Tagmata Kataphraktoi
  heavier more skilled Kataphraktoi

Objection 1)
Guys! so many chainmails! In the early period (esp until 1080) the main protection of the soldiers body was klivanion (lamellar) and lorikion (scale) armour. Chainmail (the zava) was not so famous among the Byzantines!

Objection 2)
Who are the Trapezountae..? In greek the word means: many Trebzons ! (Trapezounta=Trebzon) They would have been called "Trapezountioi" (people from Trebzon)
I think its an obvious missunderstanding with "Trapezitae" (also called "Monozonoi"=one belted) who were the light Byzantine infantry of this era.

[blindfaithnogod]

they are going to be mounted archers, we should obviously change the name based on that info, thanks. :)

EDIT: updated

[edyzmedieval]

Thanks for the info guys.
Looks like we're gonna have problems with the unit and model limits.

Also, new screenshots are on they way, along with the second update!!!