Alternate History: Michael's Crucible

[Kraxis]

Yes, Vykke, who are you? What do you do? You are great at setting the mood. I'm more into the technical aspects of my writings, and always end up in the usual sinkhole of too many facts and too much elaboration, and too little personality.

Anyway, for a professional coutier as Michael it should prove no problem to combine 1 and 3, basically smalltalking his way into the issue before Arslan knowns it. In any case Azi argues correctly that Arslan himself would soon force the issue should he wish to have a blunt discussion. But at the same time he knows the conventions and traditions for such meetings, and if he forces his way ahead he might get a bad rep, something he is certainly not looking for (again we are back at the minoritycomplex). I believe he will follow Michael's courtly talk for a while.

So #1!!!!

[GoreBag]

I have my hunches that Vykke is a DM of some kind.

[Kraxis]

I have my hunches that Vykke is a DM of some kind.

DM???

[Azi Tohak]

DM = Dungeon Master. For example, the controller of a game of Dungeons and Dragons. That is my standard interpretation anyway.

Not that I play D&D... of course... ahem... moving on...

Combining 1 & 3 would be great, but I only wanted to pick one of the list that Vykke gave us. And to be honest... I have no idea how you would respond by including small talk (say about the weather) and the Turcoman harrassment.

"My dear Sultan, what a pleasure to meet you. Isn't it nice that it is not raining Turoman marauders today?"

Now THAT is a great way to start a conversation... rather similar to starting a conversation with a woman:

"It sure is sunny out here today. Mind if I take shade under your boobies?"

At least no one has said 4. Yet....

Azi

[AntiochusIII]

"My dear Sultan, what a pleasure to meet you. Isn't it nice that it is not raining Turoman marauders today?"

Na, for me must be, "greetings, honourable Sultan, it is an honour of both nations that we have agreed to meet with each other today (blah blah blah) Hmm? What's that? About my travels? Well, it is a fine journey indeed apart from a few Turkish marauders along the way..."



Anyway, back to business. As others have said, the combination of 1 and 3 would be the way to go. Though if you can go in specifics, I'd suggest not to let Michael spend too much time small-talking and rather go on business in a more-or-less honest (only try to lie once we know of the measure of Alp Arslan's intelligence in diplomacy) and courteous manner once the initial "greetings, how do you do?" part and a few small talks are finished (occasionally praise him or act in a courteous behavior during the negotiation would be better). Indeed, if the meeting turns out to be agreeable then start to build a rapport with him, as in choice 2. Suggest something like how the alliance would enhance both nation's central authority (it's Alp Arslan's only clear weakness, and he would appreciate Byzantine support) and allow for both empires to strengthen.

However, if only one choice is available, then I'll go with choice 3, courteously.

Edit: Oh, and about Maria, it seems we made the right choice - choosing a virtuous and beautiful girl (according to Psellus, who may as well has no taste in women whatsoever ) and a real one at that. Indeed, there is nothing to apologize on Vykke's part, ancient history is often lacking when it comes to records of women - even royal ones.

[GoreBag]

DM = Dungeon Master. For example, the controller of a game of Dungeons and Dragons. That is my standard interpretation anyway.

Not that I play D&D... of course... ahem... moving on...

Oh, come on. Own up.

[SwordsMaster]

Go with 1. It doesnt compromise you to anything. Noone can be mad at you for being polite...

[Vykke]

No problem with going with 3 in a reasonably courteous fashion, that's really what I had in mind.

"My dear Sultan, what a pleasure to meet you. Isn't it nice that it is not raining Turoman marauders today?"

If only sarcasm was an effective persuasion tool. Diplomacy would be heaps of fun!

Who am I? Just some guy from Dallas who happens to like history. Similar deal to most people here, I'd bet. I'm a veterinary technician now, though I don't really consider it my life's calling or anything. In this thread, I'm still trying to figure out the right mix of strict historical correctness vs. literary detail. A lot of the mood-enhancing details I throw out are just educated (or uneducated) guesses on my part. (Is the Euphrates really narrower and faster-moving in northwest Syria? Beats me, but it seems likely, that's the way rivers usually are in hillier terrain... etc.) Sooner or later I'm sure I'll produce one that's flat-out wrong and someone will catch me on it.

I've dabbled in tabletop RPGs, even DMed a few times, though I never joined a regular gaming group.

In case any of you are confused about this, the word "Turcoman" can mean several things, but in this historical context, the word refers to Turks who came with the Seljuks in their invasion of the middle east, but did not settle down as aristocracy like their cousins and retained a tribal nomadic lifestyle semi-independent from the Seljuk state. I don't know if they're related to the people of modern Turkmenistan, but it doesn't seem impossible.

Anyway, on with the thread!

**********

Thinking on what Paulus told you, you decide that he's probably the type who'd rather get to the point of things. You're not too averse to the idea yourself. Of course, at least a little bit of diplomatic fluff is necessary.

"Alp Arslan of the Great Seljuk Empire, I greet you and welcome you to Roman soil. I'm afraid my hospitality is not fit for a guest of your stature, but we must make do with what is available." After the Sultan indicates that the accomodations are adequate, you continue. "As I'm sure you suspect, I asked you here to discuss matters of importance between our two thrones, and I hope you won't feel me too straightforward if I jump to it straight away. The matter weighs heavily on my mind, which will be greatly eased once we have worked out a solution together."

The Sultan nods. "Then by all means, I shall see what I can do to put your mind at rest." He doesn't appear put off by the haste.

"My empire has, in recent years, seen large numbers of your steppe-cousins crossing over into her eastern provinces. In Cappadocia and Cilicia, in particular, the numbers have been large. While, in a perfect world, we would welcome the Turcoman, the actual situation there is difficult. The immigrants need food and land, which are not in supply plentiful enough to suit their needs. As the these immigrants are coming from our border with your nation, and are therefore your subjects, I would ask that you dissuade them from their zeal to inhabit Roman land."

Alp Arslan waits for several long moments before replying, and at first you think that Paulus didn't translate properly and he didn't understand you. When he speaks, though, you realize that he was just choosing his words carefully. "Your majesty," he says, "I am sorry for the trouble my kinsmen have caused you. However, you must understand that we are an expansionist people. We need new lands to explore and inhabit. If any other civilization can understand that necessity, it must be you, our Roman neighbors, who were driven to conquer half of the world."

A bit disturbed by this polite bluntness, you think quickly. "We lead two great nations. We have much we can offer each other. Surely we can work out an solution that will benefit both parties."

"Though it pains me to say so," replies the Sultan, after another pause for interpretation and thought, "the Turcomen are an unruly subset of my people, who do not always listen to the advice of their betters. Land on which to make new homes is the commodity they desire above all, and that need must be met somewhere. Your provinces of Cappadocia, Cilicia, and Syria have been in Muslim possession before, and indeed some still have sizeable populations of them. My suggestion is that you cede these provinces to my authority. With this land to give the Turcoman chiefs, I will be able to keep them content. Should any of them desire to continue west to take more than their fair share, I will gladly lend the assistance of my army to stop those grasping ingrates from troubling your Empire further. Furthermore, I would consider such a gesture to be an indication of trust, and would be pleased to sign a treaty of friendship formalizing the peaceful relations between our two Empires."

Now it's your turn to spend some time thinking about this. Quite a few things come to mind.

1. Accept the terms. You'd bring peace to your eastern border, a powerful ally, and a stop to the immigration in one stroke of the pen. The court currently tends toward pacifism, so they probably wouldn't be so bothered by it if you spin it as a peace initiative.

2. He's asking too much. Refuse to accept those terms, instead offering a similar agreement for a smaller exchange of land. You might not be able to get that alliance out of a less favorable deal, though.
a. Offer him Syria only. This includes Antioch.
b. Offer him Cappadocia and Syria, but keep Cilicia in the Empire.
c. Offer him Syria and Cilicia, but refuse to give up Cappadocia.

3. You can live with giving up that territory, but not to an empire as powerful and potentially dangerous as the Seljuks. Offer to create a petty state on your border encompassing some of these lands. The Turcoman tribes will rule it themselves. This frees you both from their bothersome presence.

4. Giving up land is out of the question. His current offer is moot, but maybe you can keep talking to him and see if he seems receptive to any alternatives. Maybe you can fall back on the bribe or threats that you were originally considering.

5. Just suggesting that you give Roman territory to him is insulting. There is no further need to continue speaking with this arrogant louse.

[SwordsMaster]

Hmm... tough one. How about recruiting in those areas? Would it trouble your economy much? What is worse (economically) to fight the marauders or give up the land?

Provisionally I would go with 1, but try to squeeze as much out of it as possible. Say half of the first year's taxes from those areas, trade rights with all Turkish territories, and support against the normans in Sicily.

See, personally I think the empire should look towards Europe more than towards Asia, but on the other hand that is a lot of territory he is demanding.

So I might change my decision if others think of better ways of dealing with it.

Maybe go with number 4 and see what can we pullout...

Actually, what do we know about the turkish army?

[Kraxis]

It is indeed a tough one... Had it been anybody but Alp Arslan I would never have considered giving up land, but this is a most problematic situation. It is not likely that he would break his agreement with you, but what about the future? His successors might not hold the agreement to a similar standard.
Cappadocia is rather important for your horsebreeding and Syria is important in tradeterms (Antioch is a most important city for you).
The Seljuks would be greatly strengthened by his terms. So #1 is out, the same goes for #2 as it is in effect a bad compromise, you lose important land and get nothing solid in it's stead.

#3 Is to some extent a good compromise, but you will not get much goodwill for abandoning the Greeks and christians there to the more uncivilized Turcomans. Also that state is bound to end up as a point of contention, again with you weakened (though the Seljuks not strengthened). Lastly, the Turcomans are likely to feel some kinship with the Seljuk state and it is not unlikely that they will join in an alliance at some point.
I don't like that at all...

#4 This one sound good. You play for time and info, so as to see what else can be done. Also this way you can use your superior diplomatic skills and your knowledge of history *cough-thefallofthewesternempire-cough*.

#5 Ehhh... No. Lets just go home and disband the army, it is cheaper and takes less time and blood, but the result is the same. This would lead to war sooner or later, sooner I think. And with the army partly away in Bulgaria and not up to specs this is a most unfortunate turn of events.

So I go with #4.

[Vykke]

Sure, more info is reasonable.

About the options: Picking #2 doesn't necessarily mean you won't get an alliance, but it's not guaranteed. The terms will depend on the capacity of your army to intimidate him, whether he's bluffing and is really willing to accept less, Michael's diplomatic ability... etc. If you pick #4 and can't find another acceptable deal, he'll probably let you backtrack and accept his proposal, though it might cost you some face.

I assumed that if you wanted to bargain with him, it would be to reduce the land you're handing over, but it's reasonable to try to get other concessions from him instead. Unless you change your mind in your reply to this post, I'll consider that a "suggestion" from you, SwordsMaster.

You're not completely sure about the Sultan's army, but you think it numbers about 40,000. Unlike your empire, however, his still has significant recruiting power among the nobility, etc. (while your finances are pretty much tapped out). You roughly guess that he might be able to recruit another 20,000 in case of war, though he may have resources you're not aware of, in which case the number would be higher. Light infantry and cavalry predominate, though there's a strong core of heavier cavalry types as well. The Seljuk army gave a very good showing of itself against your father's troops in Armenia and Cappadocia.

About the provinces in question: You only own about 1/3 of Syria (the Seljuks already have the rest), though you still have Antioch, which, as Kraxis mentioned, is quite wealthy and a hub of trade between the east and west. Though there's some Greek-speaking people there, the population of Syria is mostly Arab. Consequently, it isn't considered an important recruiting area. Cilicia is populated mostly by Armenians at this point in history, with some Muslims still around too. It's supplied many troops for Imperial armies in the past, though some question the loyalty of the Armenian people. Some of it is quite agriculturally fertile, though not as important as western Anatolia. Cappadocia is populated by a combination of Greek and Armenian-speaking peoples (and now it has some Turcomen, too). Horse and cattle breeding predominate, though there's some farming too. Cappadocia is not particularly wealthy. It has supplied the horses for your cavalry for many years, though these days most of your cavalry is mercenary anyway.

As for whether it's more economically draining to give up the provinces or fight the marauders, well, these guys didn't have reams of statistical data at their fingertips like we do now. You'll have to try to figure that one out yourself.

You two can change your choices if you like.

[Vykke]

Oh, another thing: In these days, when an agreement is made it typically applies only to the two leaders who actually signed it. There are very few multigenerational treaties. So if Arslan dies, then any treaty would be forfeit unless his successor chose to sign an extension of it with you. That's just how these things worked back then.

[Azi Tohak]

Would anyone be bothered by me posting a map of the Empire at this point so we know what the heck each province entails? I have Treadgold's History of the Byzantine State and society book at home, and I can shoot one of the maps and post it here. (I am checking online for a competant map right now too.) That way everyone will know what Syria, Cilicia, Cappadocia entails. For that matter, the rest of the empire would probably help too...

By the way, my first response is "screw you hippie"... but I think Eric Cartman is a thousand years later...

I require more thought on this (along with a map to delinate just how much territory Alp is asking).

Azi

[SwordsMaster]

Our own army is about 40k strong IIRC? of mostly outdated units. And no cash to pay them with.

option 4

This is the least I would settle for:

I would like to introduce a small modification then: the cash I brought over plus Siria in exchange for an alliance and a firm policy against the marauders.

Otherwise, Siria plus Cilicia for all the above and the support of his army in Sicily against the normans.

[Vykke]

Your troops are actually about 75k strong (counting the ones in Bulgaria now). But a lot of those are mercenaries of dubious reliability, and the rest have substandard equipment. Also, deploying them all to the east would be risky, with the Pechenegs, Cumans, Uzes, Hungarians, and Normans all eager to take a bite out of your territory.

Here's a pretty decent map , showing the thematic structure of the Empire, though it's almost a century out of date. A lot happened during that time.

Most importantly, the Bulgar Khanate was subjugated and annexed into the Empire. All those petty emirates and the caliphate east of the Empire have all been subjugated by the Seljuks (or, in the case of Armenia, by the Empire, then by the Seljuks). I think the Theme of Mesopotamia was lost during the wars, too. The Alans are larger and stronger than the map shows, and the Khazars weaker. The Cumans have moved a lot farther west, pushing the Uzes and Pechenegs ahead of them. Now they're both mostly concentrated just north of the Danube. The Empire has lost most of its holdings in Italy to the upstart Normans, except for Bari and some surrounding territory in southeast Italy, and Palermo, the capital of Sicily.

If you have a map more suited to the period, Azi, then by all means, upload it. :)

By the way, when the characters were discussing "Cappadocia," they were talking about the historical region of Cappadocia, which is something larger than the theme bearing its name in Michael's time. It extends east to the border, roughly.

Here's another one , even more out of date, though it shows the major cities.

[Kraxis]

Ah you mean the Theme of Cappadocia and the Theme of Lycandos? I was hoping to possibly buy Arslan off with it. It seems insignificant yet important at tyhe same time.

[Azi Tohak]

I hopes everyone has big screens!

But these are the only relevant maps I was able to find in my book. I thought I had some that had the emprire and its probable (possible?) thematic boundaries at the end of 1070... but no luck.



https://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a...g/DSC00201.jpg



https://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a...g/DSC00199.jpg

I hope these help.

Azi

[AntiochusIII]

There is no point in giving in to the Turks - the empire is far from being down. Do not be intimidated, continue talking, as in choice 4. Make it clear to Alp Arslan that you want his friendship and cooperation, but not at the cost of Roman prestige, or a single parcel of land. If it was after Manzikert it would be another situation but, for now, you have the manpower for a war. Be courteous, though. No need for aggressive words.

Choices 1,2 and 3 will be a major military setback. Antioch is a key city - an equivalent of Chang'an of the Shu-Wei war of the Three Kingdoms - Cilicia, too, is wealthy, and holds key passes between Anatolia and the Levant - Cappadocia is the empire's only area to actually raise a large amount of cavalry forces - even if parts given in the agreement are unimportant, what stops the Turks from taking the rest, and all Anatolia with it? Besides, who cares for a pacifist court of backstabbing cowards and conspiring selfish courtiers, when your true power (and main supporter) is the army, in which you will certainly lose much respect to surrender even before the war starts?

And we do have Alans on our side in case of war, remember Maria?

Though I quite regret when that Armenian (who supported Diogenes) was banished now; he could've been a living symbol (read: mascot) of Michael's "benevolence" in which he could rally Armenians to join him.

Choice 5 is too blunt. Michael is a mild person, he, I presume, does not have to intimidating factor of men like, presumably, Barbarossa when it comes to influencing diplomacy by force of will.

Edit: Oh, and subtly point out that you know his weakness: that his authority is far from complete over the Turks. Men tend to be more careful if they realize others know their dick isn't quite as large as it's boasted to be. In fact, equally subtly offer Roman aid in the matter, probably Alp Arslan woul reconsider the value of Constantinople's friendship. Indeed, if war becomes inevitable, support the enemies of the Sultan to distract and weakens him. The provinces of Anatolia are more or less Roman in loyalty and will raise their arms to support Michael against the hated Turks, should he call for, even if they're not strong enough to take on the likes of the Turkish horde on their own.

[Azi Tohak]

Nicely done Vykke. I did check online, but I did not have any luck. I am glad you did. Now then, assuming I can use my first map, with the updated thematic boundaries and assuming they are not too far wrong (the map shows 1025, but I believe the Byzantines did not start losing land control until after Manzikert).

If I use my first map, and assume that Alp is proposing Manuel grant him everything east of the line of: Tarsus, Podandus, Cappadocia, and then the thick grey line running NE... that is too steep to me.

No giving territory away for so little, not after the struggles Nicephoras Phocas and John Tzimisces (and their generals) had in taking the land for the Empire a hundred years before. Cappadocia, hiding behind the Tarsus-Antitarsus mountain line had been the frontier for the Empire for centuries. However, Tarsus controls the passes through the southern part of the Tarsus frontier, and with the Armenians, it is useful for its soldiers. And of course, there is Antioch. Probably the #3 city in the Empire right now, at least in terms of population (behind Constantinople and Thessalonika). Antioch is a tough nut to crack (as the Crusaders would find out), and would make a fine southern anchor in case of a major war with either the Fatmids or Seljuks (not that they like each other anyway).

Alp wants lots of giving here. If he really wants a place for his brethren to live... how about his own vast empire? He has Iraq, Iran, the rest of Syria already. The smallest area that would be important enough for Alp has to be the rest of Syria, with Antioch. However, there is not enough room for all his tribes. And of course, who is to say they won't multiply like rabbits and then need more room? What's next? Anatolia? HA! The last thing you need for Anatolia and the rest of Asia Minor is to have Turks with a homeland inside your natural fences.

If he does not like anything from #4, just land, then I think 2a would be the best, but get an Alliance out of him too. Very wealthy city, strong land, but... maybe you could sweeten the deal for it with something else.

I also wonder at the spin back from because of you less than secure throne. I wonder how much your nobles would like #1 or most of #2. They helped to fight for that land, and many of them probably have land of their own out there in the Wild Wild East (not that they really care... until you give it away).

I say #4 is the best. Despite what I have said above, I do not thinking giving up land is out of the question... I just wonder how much can be given to get him to quash what I view as his internal problem.

Azi

[GoreBag]

He's just haggling. Your opening big is always more than you really want. He can afford to be taken down a few notches, at least. Option 4.

I'm confident that war with the Turks may wind up in our favour, especially with a few well-placed bribes for the chiefs. The Alans, I'm sure, would enjoy getting some Turkish land. We won't need to pull our forces from other regions.

"I offered him double his estates in Scotland and lands in England. Lochlan turned...for much less."

Option 4 it is.

By the way...I suggest growing a beard. No one thinks you mean business unless you have a beard.

[AntiochusIII]

By the way...I suggest growing a beard. No one thinks you mean business unless you have a beard.

I agree. A red one, too, if you can. And make it look majestic - half trimmed, half rugged. The soldiers like that.

[Vykke]

If I use my first map, and assume that Alp is proposing Manuel grant him everything east of the line of: Tarsus, Podandus, Cappadocia, and then the thick grey line running NE... that is too steep to me.

I also wonder at the spin back from because of you less than secure throne. I wonder how much your nobles would like #1 or most of #2. They helped to fight for that land, and many of them probably have land of their own out there in the Wild Wild East (not that they really care... until you give it away).

He's not asking for quite that much - by your map, Cappadocia, Podantus, Tarsus, and everything east of Podantus and Tarsus. The concessions wouldn't include the northeastern territories east of the thick gray line. Regardless, it's been pretty much settled in favor of #4. On the matter of political spin, at this point in time most nobles are pretty distant from military affairs (the closest most get are some "units" calling themselves Tagmata, that are really social clubs for young nobles who want to play soldier). Some of the nobles may own land in the east, but they'd be private holdings with no connection to their noble status. Later, they were given real lands of their own, but at this point in time, they mostly just sit in Constantinople. Many participate in the senate or bureaucracy, others do pretty much nothing. Obviously, a few families (notably Comnenus and Botaniates) are exceptions.

On the beard matter - Michael probably already has one. Certainly he did by the time these coins were minted. He's a Byzantine emperor, it's pretty much expected of him. I don't know what color his beard is, but since he's Greek, it's probably brown or black.

*******

You consider handing over territory - the prospect of an alliance is attractive - but it just doesn't seem to be worth it to you. Syria and Cilicia are too wealthy to give up so easily, and Cappadocia has, if nothing else, strategic importance because of its location in the middle of your Asian lands. You choose to look for more acceptable alternatives.

"As you have pointed out, gracious Sultan, I am Roman," you say, "and while I would appreciate your friendship, I cannot bear to part with the territory my forebears fought so long and hard to take and retain. There must be other ways to solve our problems to our mutual satisfaction. Perhaps your Turcoman kin can be encouraged to settle elsewhere? There is land aplenty in many regions of the world. Even within your own lands, there may be opportunity for them to live peacefully." Paulus tries to imitate your inflection in his translation. It's strange to hear your speech patterns imperfectly mimicked in the Turkish language, which sounds harsh to your ears. "The coffers of my Empire are, of course, available to help you reform a troublesome people. With the help of Imperial coin, perhaps you can encourage the Turcomen to adopt a lifestyle more suitable to national harmony."

"I regret to say that if I keep the welfare of my other subjects in mind, there is little place for them in my own realm," the Sultan replies. "The warrior spirit burns strongly in them, and while this is admirable, it makes them difficult neighbors for my other subjects." The two of you study each other for a few moments more, then suddenly he leans toward you intently. "However, as you've suggested, there is another land open to them. It is rich and expansive, and ruled by corrupt schismatics who do not recognize the true way of Allah. However, their strength is formidable. If you are not willing to donate land for my brethren, perhaps you can help us take it from those who do not deserve it."

"You speak of Egypt," you realize.

"Indeed. With your help I can reclaim it for the true Caliph. Especially, I would need the help of your navy to stop trade with the west, thus weakening them. Some land forces would be exceedingly helpful as well. With our combined might, we could topple the Fatimids and bring land to my nomads and glory to ourselves."

A war with Egypt wasn't really what you had in mind, but it's worth hearing him out. "What do you have in mind, from my end? You must remember that my soldiers and ships are needed in many provinces to protect our borders."

"Of course. As I stand the most to gain from the conflict, the bulk of the burden should be mine as well. I ask for the commitment of as many naval ships as you can spare, as well as a good portion of soldiers, though not enough to put your borders in jeapordy. Perhaps a couple tens of thousands of men, led by a capable commander, would suffice. I would like to bring them with me in the offense, rather than asking them to mount their own campaign. As I will be on the scene, and therefore better able to use them to best effect, they would be under my local command, but naturally, your word would be final in any matter regarding their orders."

You again have much to consider, and take your time. As the two of you have been speaking, you've come up with two other ideas besides what Alp Arslan is offering.

1. Accept this proposal. The Imperial navy is not as strong as it once was, but may be up to the challenge, especially if you can get Venice, an Imperial protectorate, to assist you. You could use a strong ally, and this way you wouldn't have to give up themes.

2. Decline to get your army involved in large numbers. You need them here, not in Egypt. Hopefully naval involvement will be enough to suit the Sultan.

3. Go further than what he's proposed. Offer to get involved in the war directly, commanding your own army and with the Empire's full participation, in exchange for a cut of the spoils. The Holy Land is under Fatimid control, and would be an enormous prize, if you can convince the Sultan to let you have it.

4. The first of your ideas: Offer him the gold again, but this time explain to him your plan. The money would be spent bribing the receptive Turcoman leaders to enter the Sultan's service in a more professional sense, as regular army units. He could create a specific corps for the Turcomen, and emphasize the honor associated with it. Those that are uninterested could be bribed to return to Turkestan or to head to Arabia, India, or other lands. Those that are receptive to neither approach could be driven away or subdued by force, if necessary, once most of their brethren are out of the way. This might require repeated payments from the Empire until the issue is resolved.

5. The second of your ideas: Offer to destroy the Turcomen for him. He will discretely rally as many of them as he can at the border between your empires for a "surprise attack," and then, through secret correspondences, provide your army the information it needs to crush them. He will then insist publicly that he had nothing to do with the disastrous "raid." You will back him up, claiming that there was no sign that the Sultan was involved, and that there is no need for continued fighting.

[SwordsMaster]

A combination of 1 and 4. Michael should use that money to recruit the turkomen in a special corps and then place them under a capable commander and send them to Egypt with Arslan. As of your navy, give him a few ships and let the Venetians help him too, and of course impeding egyptian trade, will put more money in your own pockets....

And tell Arslan that you will help him in the war.

[AggonyDuck]

Number 1, although I'm almost tempted to go with nr.3 for some extra dangers..

[AntiochusIII]

A Question (request for more information) to Vykke: Is the Holy land currently wealthy? What is its condition under the Fatimids? Is it densely populated or sparsely so? What would you stand to gain in Palestine? All or part of them?

I am greedy.

[Kraxis]

As far as I know the Fatimids are not too strong at the moment, and should prove a rather easy conquest between you.

I'm just beginning to get cold feet about my previous speeches about Arslan's 'honour'. He was never pushed this far in reality and most often had most to gain from the honourable choice. He could do a backstab...

I'm inclined to look for a solution where the Turcomans are used directly in the war. "Here is your promised land, take it... We will in fact pay you to take it."

So yeah, 1 and 4. But if push comes to shove, 1. 3 does sound rather tempting too... And in such a case it is unlikely that Arslan can do a backstab (you are there with a big army). But my choise stands.

[GoreBag]

I vote number 1. This is where we scratch his back. He'll scratch ours when the time comes to crush the Normans. At least, that would be optimal.

[AntiochusIII]

Ha! Alp Arslan drives a hard bargain. But if he wants Egypt to prevent the annexation of Roman lands then Egypt it shall be.

Though 1 and 4 seems popular I'd much prefer 1 and 3. The Empire's coffer is not huge - it's rather, in fact, around the bottom. The Turkomen could continue to plague the Imperial financial situation this way for quite some time. And what guarantee do we have that Alp Arslan won't betray the Empire after he has Egypt, but respect for you he currently seems to lack?

You have to engage in the war yourself. Prove your strength, and claim the Holy Land (I had no choice but to presume that the Levant is probably currently quite prosperous). It is likely that the fact that Christians again rule Jerusalem would help in your reputation at home. The uneducated masses are pious Christians, and an emperor who reclaims the so-called "holy city" for "God's empire" could be very popular, and that would probably even help the relationship with the West (or provoke envy?).

I approve 1 and 3. Oh, and do let the Sultan gather his Turks back for the Egyptian conquest. And if my choice is chosen, I suggest letting the Turks drives the war forward for a while before fully engaging to convince the Fatimids that we are less of a threat, and therefore would not fight us full force while everything they have are occupied with the Turks.

[Azi Tohak]

Ha I knew it! I knew Vykke had done his homework and would get to the Fatmids eventually. Now then... what to do about them?

To be honest, the idea of recovering the Holy Land (no crusades! [good or bad?]) is interesting... but I would much rather have a weak Fatmid empire to help counter the very strong Seljuks, then a vastly stronger Seljuk empire to deal with, and no more Fatmids. Sure, maybe the Fatmids are weak... but still, they are very wealthy (the Nile will do that for you). But I hate the idea of a Seljuk empire combining the wealth of Egypt and the strength of the Seljuks (as they stand under Alp). I must protest helping Alp with any war against the Fatmids.

So now what? I don't want to give him land (and nor, I suppose, did he expect it), but I also don't want to help him with his 'adventure'. How can I get his help to stop the raiders?

1. No, already elaborated why.

2. See 1 above.

3. ...

4. I don't think forming a Jihading (think Crusading) order with the undisciplined Turcoman tribes would work.... and who is to keep them from going after those outside the house of Islam? Not Alp!

5. THIS could be fun. But I don't trust Alp any farther than I can throw him. Who is to say that won't just make a Manzikert with Manuel at the helm?

6. So now what? I don't like anything that has come up. To be frank, what I would like to do is take a lunch break, to our separate camps, and discuss with my advisors what to do.

7. If no break (afterall, we have not been talking very long at all), I say 1 (tens of thousands? Try maybe 10,000) and really try to get Venice to help out. All you need is Venice to get mad at your right now for trying to shut down one of their buddies (I figure trade works in every direction to be honest, and merchants really don't like war).

8. This one is more parenthetical, but Vykke, who do you have owning Cyprus right now? I believe the Empire continued to own Cyprus for a very long time... but if I am wrong and the Fatmids own it, then I suggest Manuel hit that. Hard. Talk about a valuable province. Yeah! Naval base, trade... sweet! And get rid of any pirates.

Wow... so I want: 6 then 8 (if I am right), then 7 if possible.

Thanks for reading this... I know it was a pain, but the Seljuks worry me. The Ottomans were one of those Turcoman tribes afterall.

Azi

[AntiochusIII]

Hmm...your worries are legitimate, Azi. May be it's time for the *gasp* crusades?

Perhaps we can take the Holy Land (my way... ) then direct the crusades to Damietta in Egypt. Or let them cross Palestine to Baghdad.

Just kidding.

However I'd like to really, really know the conditions of the Holy Land right now. It means everything between decisions 4 or 3. If it is rich (is Phoenicia still rich?), then take it by all means. The wealth gained will allow for more recruitments, diplomatic flexibility, and the rearming process of the Imperial army, which will probably help our emperor Michael Ducas squash the Turks alright.

If it's a poor, devastated, potentially rebellious province, then it's not really worth it...

Is there, by any chance, a choice to preserve the treasury while militarily support the Turks so we can just bribe the Turkish tribes (and call out the Alans) and stab Alp Arslan in the back when he was occupied in Egypt?