Interactive History IV: Manstein's Woes

[Franconicus]

Kraxis,

this is a brilliant story. Hope you will not change history and make Hitler win the war.

As far as I see it Manstein has another option. If he is a great man and soldier. He should invite Hitler to visit the troops before the operation starts. And bring Himmler too. Just to encourage the soldiers. Then arrest them and kill them.

[AntiochusIII]

Kraxis,

this is a brilliant story. Hope you will not change history and make Hitler win the war.

As far as I see it Manstein has another option. If he is a great man and soldier. He should invite Hitler to visit the troops before the operation starts. And bring Himmler too. Just to encourage the soldiers. Then arrest them and kill them.

Oww... nice idea. But we should do it after the dust settles in Kursk and the Red army collapsed, as to prevent the Soviets taking advantage of a changing regime in the Eastern Front. Please gives us the choice, Kraxis!

For now...well...take the armours from the West - those tanks aren't that useful in Italy, or Greece, for that matter. The possibility of the allies landing in Southern France is to be taken as a necessary risk.

[Kraxis]

Sorry guys, you have argued for your various positions, but in the end teh rule of the first three ended up with #4, a total workout.

And about Hitler. If I ever did that it would have been a foregone conclusion, not a great possibility for different point of views. Later other stuff might happen, but Manstein is a soldier and a soldier follows his commander.

[AntiochusIII]

And about Hitler. If I ever did that it would have been a foregone conclusion, not a great possibility for different point of views. Later other stuff might happen, but Manstein is a soldier and a soldier follows his commander.

Foregone conclusion? Is Manstein really holds that much popularity among the troops compare to Hitler? (Or is it the other way around, that Manstein will never succeed?)

Anyway, I understand your point that he won't do that anyway and this "Interactive History" won't be fun without the ultimate obstacle in the game providing the challenge (i.e. his own leader, Hitler )

[Kraxis]

A full Job
Eventhough you are drawn towards the front again, you deside to do some work at Rastenburg. You need a major influx of men and armour to make this campaign work, at the moment you have some 400 tanks in all at the salient. A strong force, but you lack heavy tanks to lead the assaults and most of your tanks are not in working order. More problematic is the severe lack of panzergrenadiers in the panzer divisions. You need to find reinforcements and the collective of generals and staffers here at Rastenburg are the best men to get at.

The remaining day you go about talking to the right men about recieving priority of men and equipment for replacements, and to your surprise they are rather positive towards you, no need for beaurocratic haggling. Somehow Hitler's carte blanche has spread like a wildfire.
The next day you get in contact with Model of 9th Army and give him the news of replacements, and give him the order of preparing for battle. He is of course a little perplexed that the orders come from you rather than his own superior von Kluge. You quickly tell him that there is no time for lengthy commandlines, then hang up. You know this might get problematic when von Kluge finds out, but you haven't got time and you are sure he will understand, he is afterall on of your few friends.
You then set off into the room of the OKW where Jodl and Keitel at the moment lingers. Your mood high you rush in and make your demand of the western tanks, expecting them to comply in a timely fashion. Instead both of them stare blankly at you, then Keitel speaks up in that haughty fashion he likes to use with subordinates.
"You can make no demands of the OKW, young man. We are seperate of the OKH."
Surprised you can only stutter out: "But... But we are all in this together. We need those tanks!"
Jodl chimes in, sensing an easy victory. "Yes, sure you do, but so do we. Do you think the Amis and Tommies will just lay back? They are at the moment finishing the Afrika Korps, where do you think they will head off to next? England? Hardly."
"You fools!!! You know very well that they can't attack right away and we need those tanks in the east NOW! You can get them back later."
The only answer you get is the stony expressions and a short crisp "not a chance" from Keitel. And he is right, at least for the moment. You shake your head and mumbles a short curse under your breath as you exit again.

The time is up and the car is waiting, but before you go you manage to leave a message for Hitler, asking him to get the OKW to comply, if not entirely then at least with the Tigers, or other potent tanks.
The next morning you are back at your HQ, a pile of papers awaits you. I'm a warrior not a pencilpusher, but I'm more likely to die from a papercut. Pushing them aside you get into contact with Hollidt, charged with your sourthern defenses. Once again you order him to give up his most potent forces, but he is reluctant.
"But Herr Field Marshall we can't hold our lines if we do give up the mobile forces, they are what keep my lines glued together. Without them we won't be able to do much in the case of a Russian attack."
"The whole point is for Hoth to draw away all the attention and forces. Besides the Russians opposing you are not really strong in their own right, and you know that they do not attack unless they feel strong."
"I can't give them all up, I need to have something to keep my troops in contact with each other."
You know he is right and you can't afford more time to be wasted here, so you concede him his wishes. It is turning out to be a serious problem with the tanks and men, but at least you have gotten news of the first reinforcements arriving. The speed of them arriving is increadible, the staffers at Rastenburg have really worked wonders. And the 1st Panther Experimental Battalion is on its way, complete with an entire battalion of SS mechanized infantry as tagalongs from Himmler. You wonder where he has been able to get those men so fast, and the result that you end up with is certainly not something you like, but everything counts, and you begin to lay out the plans for the attack and the rearrangement of your own forces.

After a few days of working furiously you collapse from exhaustion. For the better part of a day you are completely out of touch with the HQ. And when you return you learn that Hitler has turned down your request to the Tigers in Italy, and basically everything else. But at least he has allowed you to siphon in the men going to Italian based units. This is far less than you had hoped, or even expected, and you can easily imagine the smug grins on Keitel and Jodl's faces.
But progress has been good, armoured units are rapidly converging on your frontlines, as well as those of Model's. But the cost has been significant, von Kluge had felt insulted that you had gone over his head in the matter, and in the end you used more time calming him down and explaining him the plans, than what you would have used at the outset. And from now on he is not going to be as forthcoming as previously.
The Panthers arrived only two days ago, and have already been in action a few times, very minor of course. The men has given the unit the dual name of Flammkatzen, Flaming Cats, as a tribute to their significant abilities as well as their horrible tendecies to burst into flames. The technicians have had little luck in correcting this.

You are worried because of your little mishap earlier, but you think you can carry it through for the moment, though the doctors urge you to relax a bit. You begin to wonder where to put your Schwerpunkt, Point of Concentration. You have a couple of options, as you could let 4th Panzer Army lead the attack at the bottom of a salient just north of Belgorod going northeast, or transfer the armour to Army Detachment Kempf to lead the attack across the Donets to the east swinging north. The last option is also 4th Panzer Army, but a bit further west gunning straight for Oboyan.

A1: Center your strongest armour for an attack northeast of Belgorod, following the Donets' flow. This area is perhaps less perfect for armour, with many small hills and small groves and villages, but the flank is easily protected by the river.

A2: Toughen up Kempf's troops for an attack across the Donets then north between Korocha and the Donets eastern bank. Problematic to say the least, as a major river will need to be crossed by massed armour. But the area is by far the weakest guarded, though several Guards units are nearby.

A3: Go directly north towards Oboyan with 4th Panzer Army. After some hilly terrain it flattens out into nice open fields of crops, so it is a very good terrain for armour. Sadly this is estimated to be the home of 32nd Guards Rifle Corps with plenty of mechanized troops around. Also since you strike further out the cut won't be as debilitating in case of victory.

B1: Slow down a bit, but still put a strong effort into pushing the little pieces around on your map. Those troops are needed soon.

B2: Slow down even more, basically let the troops get into position as they are set now. Then later nitpick them into their right positions. At this pace you will most likely get a lot of talking with Hoth and Kempf.

B3: Go on right away. The collapse was because of too little sleep, so obviously you will take care of that, but you can rest when this is all over.

[Kraxis]

Foregone conclusion? Is Manstein really holds that much popularity among the troops compare to Hitler? (Or is it the other way around, that Manstein will never succeed?)

Anyway, I understand your point that he won't do that anyway and this "Interactive History" won't be fun without the ultimate obstacle in the game providing the challenge (i.e. his own leader, Hitler )

No I meant that it was a foregone conclusion among you guys. In every case such an option would be bad. If I make it a good choice, then it would be too easy, if I make it bad then the 'game' is basically over as this is a most serious action (civil war, disobedient troops ect ect), and finally if I make it a 'so-so' result it doesn't give the situation the credit it would need. In all aspects it is simply too big. I don't dare do it really.
Also, Manstein didn't go about with these kind of plans at the time (if at all). While this is fiction it has to have some rational anchoring in history.

[discovery1]

B1, and......


I don't know. Hmmm, alot can go wrong in a river crossing, and if it's too slow then those guards will get in place and make it impossible.

A3 seems more certain. While it will result in more german blood being spilled, if you hit fast enough you should be able to pull through, hopefully.

A1, well the terrian is apparently poor, but we don't know anything about the forces facing use there. Maybe they are fairly weak. And the river keeps us safe, sort of.

I say A2, and pray that it can be done fast enough for the guards to not interfere.

[AggonyDuck]

A1 and B1. Basically you need the some rest, but not too much.
Also A1 due to the fact that crossing a river might take a long while and not really be simplest of things and because somehow I prefer A1 over A3..

Actually I've changed my mind, A2 is the last thing that I want. So I'm forced to take A3 in order to avoid it. So I pick A3 and B1.

[PanzerJaeger]

A3: - Let your best forces, the panzers, destroy their strongest forces. The russians will not hold if they see their best troops running away. The panzers are your best hope for making this victory meaningful and crushing - but they need the correct terrain to achieve that objective.

B3: - A german general in the prussian tradition does not let his own health stand in the way of a critical battle. There will be plenty of time to rest when the initiative is retaken in the east. However, there will be no time to rest if he is forced to fight a continuous string of defensive battles.

[Kagemusha]

Im with Panzer on this one.A3 And B3.

[Kraxis]

Hehehe... Nice reversal there Duck. Now I have been working on a rivercrossing and find this. Into the can with it. That will teach me to give you guys too many liberties, and time!

Anyway, back to work.

[Kraxis]

Reports reports reports
When you finally let him in the doctor gives you a written note, the poor man had been shot through the throat back in early Barbarossa by a sniper. The turbo-handwriting is far from beautiful but it is easily read and fast written. Serious risk of stroke at present level of stress. You take a look at yourself, and take a moment to feel how you are. It is clear to you, you must scale back your work or suffer the consequences. Due to this you take the easy option for the operational attack. The attack towards Oboyan along the highway from Butovo. It is far easier to manage at the moment and it will present you with much easier tactical considerations when the attack is finally carried out, at which time you are physically capable of actually being there all the time. Unfortunately you won't have the resources to have Kempf support Hoth with anything but holdingattacks.
You are also a little concerned of the serious digging in being done by the 6th Gurds Army and the 1st Tank Army covering your attackroute. Further this is the area that Das Reich has been operating in, meaning that the Russians are well aware of the Panthers. Well, it is not likely to matter much as your are concentrating your best forces here, including three SS Panzer Divisions, the Das Reich, the Totenkopf and the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler.

For another week you oversee the preperations, and follow deeply the progress of the 1st Experimental Panther Battalion. The tanks themselves are doing very well on the field, but they need constant care and are actaully escorted onto the field by recoveryvehicles following right behind the grenadiers. Your feeling of the new SS troops has been reinforced by their extreme violence, taking no prisoners below the rank of captain, and their lax discipline, they are however aggressive, determined and superb shots. You are just happy that you don't have an entire division of them. The battalion has by now increased to 43 tanks, of which on average 20 are in the shop.

The 503rd Heavy Tank Battalion has also reached your lines, bringing with it 41 Tigers from the north. Since it is an independant unit it is under your direct leadership, so at some point you will have to decide where to use them.
Hitler has become more and more invasive, demanding you to wait for more Panthers before you attack. He argues that the Russian defensive works will need a sledgehammer to break through. He has also removed the commander of Luftflotte 4, von Richthofen, a most capable commander of the attacks soon required of the Luftflotte. For now it is doing a lot of interdiction against teh railways and roads, trying to cut the lines of supply.

You feel a little undecided, a lot of things need your attention, your limited attention.

1) Fight Hitler vehemently over the Panther issue. Your belief that speed is of the essence is opposed by Hitlers insitance on more Panthers. Trouble is just that he might close up entirely if attacked too hard, besides this is not your usual style.

2) Demand the return of von Richthofen, he is important to your plans, and he is well versed in the capabilities of the new cannon-Stuka. This way you put off the confrontation with Hitler over the issue of the Panthers.

3) Continue to oversee the reinforcements in detail, making sure your have the correct weight at the attacklines. It is likely you can up the number of Panthers reaching the front.

4) Begin to tour the front, both to inspect the troops and their capabilties, but also to inspire them and put the SS troops in their place. Of course Hoth will be accompanying you. With the knowledge of the troops at hand you can more easily argue with Hitler.

[SwordsMaster]

A combination of 2 and 4 would be nice.... Otherwise just 2. You have to take care of your good men.

[AggonyDuck]

Sorry, about the sudden reverse, didn't actually mean to cause you more trouble. Anyways I'll sit back from this decision...

[DemonArchangel]

Right now, Hitler, not the Russians, is my biggest opponent. Now, arguing with him won't solve anything.

Yes, Hitler should be allowed to ship more Panthers to the front. In fact, right now is a very good opportunity to use a sword and shield dynamic defense tactic, because the Russians can be lured out of the Kursk salient in force in order to attack the German military, only to be broken on the new Panthers and Tigers lying in wait for them. So you now have the backhand stroke that you wanted, thanks to the obstinance of Hitler.

So 3) has to be my choice.

[Kraxis]

The Russians won't attack. They are comitted to a defensive battle now that they know an attack will come. Pretty much as what happened in the real case. The Russians never attacked in the entire and very long buildup to Zitadelle.

[MoROmeTe]

I say 3. Bickering with Hitler or visiting the front isn't nearly as important as overseing deployment of troops...

[discovery1]

DON"T DO THREE!!! By the time more panthers arrive, the Russians will be so strong it doesn't matter. Just like in real life.....

2 is the way to go. Just start the offensive asap, don't wait around for unreliabe panthers that won't help.

[Kagemusha]

number 4.Little things can be decisive ones in war.If you dont know details you are living in a scenario,not in real life. Number three is going to ruin us.

[AntiochusIII]

Do number 2 first, then goes on with number 4. You need von Richthofen to crush the Russian. 3 is what happened historically, and there the Germans are defeated. After you sent your demand go on inspecting the troops and gather as much information and raise morale as possible as every bit would counts in the upcoming clash.

If you refuse to allow the combination, however, goes on with number 2 only.

[PanzerJaeger]

Damn, missed it again.. freaking sleep.

[GoreBag]

I'm gonna say 4. A little more knowledge about the battlefield will provide insight as to which executive decisions should be made. "Knowing is half the battle", they say.

[Kraxis]

Sorry guys I haven't updated the thread... But I have been stressed by university and the fact that a real close friend's mother died last week, so I have been preoccupied with him as well, and with my own grief.

But I'll get right at it now.

[Kagemusha]

Nothing to be sorry about Kraxis.Interactive history is nothing in comparison to interactive real life.My condolences.

[Kraxis]

The Clock is ticking
When you heard that Hitler transferred his 'pet' von Richthofen you went out of your mind. What is going on with Hitler?! That fool is making this more and more impossible for me... You imedieately sent a note, outlining the wish for Richthofen to return, to Berchtesgaden, where the Führer had retreated to shortly after your visit. But you have no illusions, that if Hitler himself has wanted this transfer, and it is not just some fool that had lobbied him in your absence (your thoughts at once fly towards Jodl and Keitel, even now they are making your preperations a hell), then there is no chance the note will make him change his mind. You settle in to the fact that von Richthofen is lost to you, when you might get the time you could try to get him back, but by then the 'opening' might be lost. You sigh... This is not easy.

In the end you just get back at overseeing the preperations, continually harried by Hitler and other high roller's demands for more tanks. It is getting highly annoying.
It is now the 6th of April, and you are worried by the Russian buildup and digging in. Air recon has determined that the Guard and the Tank armies facing you are rapidly getting up to strength, obviously getting priority consideration. This worries you as at the moment none of your divisions are at full strength, especially low are the panzergrenadiers.
That has to be addressed and you jump back at the logistical nightmare of creating the supplydumps and routing the new troops to their respective positions so that Hoth can concentrate on tactical matters.

As the days go by you get more and more worried that you are losing the initiative, and to your great dismay you have only recieved another 20 Panthers, barely making up forthe losses suffered in combat and to total burnouts during the inevitable fires. The Flammkatzen are at a total of 49 tanks, though they are still dogged by fires in the engines, but now they are already decreasing quite significantly in frequency. Their infantry are still behaving disgustingly towards the locals, and they have in fact gotten into a fight with some other personell from Das Reich over the fact that they ruined a perfectly good evening with a few busloads of women from Kharkov.

The 16th of April.
Hitler has once again postponed the attack, you are beginning to doubt the entire offensive, and you have heard that Guderian are working furiously to stop it. Not now Heinz! You only end up pushing Hitler towards a continual delaying...
But you have used the time to great effect. By now 4th Panzer Army is almost up to stength, and you have readied 3rd Panzer Corps from Army Detachment Kempf to be ready to redeploy to the north to form a guard along the right flank of Hoth. Nominally they will remain under control of Kempf, but de-facto it will be a joint command of you, Hoth and Kempf, determined by what troubles might arise.
Your attackline consists of nothing less than 2nd SS Panzer Corps, under Hausser, with Totenkopf, Das Reich and Leibstandarte, on their flanks you have arrayed Grossdeutchland to the west and 11th Panzer to east, effectively breaking up 48th Panzer Corps. The remaining forces, 3rd Panzer, 167th, 255th and 332nd are all combined into 52nd Corps to the west of Haussers forces, due to their lack of armour you are not going to rely on them too much. To the east near Belgorod you have Kempf's forces, ready to swing round to support the attack.
But you wonder... You are weak in infantry in the main attackforce, and you are uncertain of how much armour you can allow to be lost. Perhaps a shift in the line should be made?

The next morning, just after sunrise an orderly comes barging into your quarters. You are just about to assign him to the assault engineers when he blurts out. "Herr Field Marshall! I bring important news. A recon plane has spotted a massive traficjam of tanks, trucks, assaultguns, artillery... Every kind of vehicle you can imagine, and it is sitting just north of Butovo. We are talking about thousands of vehicles. Obviously something went wrong in the night and the Russians have since tried to move the vehicles out onto the fields to try to get round the jam but have in effect just extended the problems. The pilot is waiting for you out in the office."
You fly out of your bed, your mind a bewildering mess of thoughts and ideas, but you can't locate the right course of action, as you speak with the pilot you mind settles on a few courses.

1: Send in the planes, call for the gun-Stukas from down in Kerch (they will not arrive until at least 5 hours, meaning about noon), but don't do much else. While the jam is obviously a problem for the Russians there isn't much your groundforces can do about it as the frontlines are still intact.

2: Let Dessloch (von Richhofen's replacement) decide what to do about it. You will return to the issue of reforming the frontline.
a) Send Grossdeutchland to the east along with 332nd to reform 48th Panzer Corps so you have a better connection with Kempf's forces. This can be critical when the attack is launched.
b) Have the four divisions weak in armour ready and trained for attacks on the Russian positions in preperation for the armour to attack from behind. This might throw off the Russian preperations. Support for them is ready in the form of the 503rd Heavy Tank Battalion and the 1st Experimental Panther Battalion.

3: This is the one chance you have of catching the Russians with their pants down, and it gives you a perfect argument in front of Hitler when he begins the bombardment of you for not adhering to his orders (of waiting). Launch the entire attack right away.

4: This is a perfect chance for you to test the Russian lines. Launch planes to keep the jam in place, then have artillery soften up a section of front in preperation for the Panters to attack. It is the only strong force ready to attack right away, support with plenty infantry. Then throw in the Tigers of 503rd Heavy. They are very likely to capture a significant portion of Russain defences, giving you a vital insight into the Russian defences.

[Kraxis]

Nothing to be sorry about Kraxis.Interactive history is nothing in comparison to interactive real life.My condolences.

Thank you...

[Kagemusha]

number 3.Attack now.every day that passes by puts you into more difficult position Russians are growing stronger faster then you can get new troops.

[PanzerJaeger]

It is difficult to gauge the strength of the forces that are in the traffic jam or how much they effect the russian defenses.

Im going to have to go, somewhat reluctantly, with 3. No matter if there was a traffic jam or not, the russians cannot be allowed to continue making preparations for a battle they apparently know will be fought on that ground. The delay has already given up a critical advantage - surprise. No need to compound it.

[AntiochusIII]

It's time for another Blitzkrieg. This is probably your only chance before the Russian line becomes too strong and deep to break. Choice 3; take the risk. Do not let Hitler get in the way of a German victory.

By the way, my condolences for your personal matter.

[Vykke]

Sorry to hear about that, Kraxis.

Anyway, 1 and 2 are right out. You need to take advantage of this somehow before the balance shifts completely in Ivan's favor.

I'd go with option 4. It'd annoy Hitler less than a full-out assault (giving you a better chance of getting von Richthofen back), while still disrupting the enemy's efforts at reinforcement and digging-in. Still, 3 is a viable alternative, and might work wonders, it just seems riskier.