Interactive History IV: Manstein's Woes

[discovery1]

Go!!! Attack Now!!! Before It's Too Late!!! 3!!!!!

[GoreBag]

Option 3. Their pants are down, as you said - their vitals are in plain view. Kick away.

[Kraxis]

Thanks guys... I knew you would understand, but I felt I had to explain.

Anyway back to the job at hand.
It is clear you want option 3, and option 3 it will be.

[Kraxis]

On the Road again

The pilot details his findings to you while you consider the implications, but you are already beginning to think out the tactical considerations. "Well, I flew over a traficjam, that much was certain, but I had a hard time determining the size of it because of dustclouds around it. Then it hit me, the Russians are trying to move their vehicles around the clog. I even managed to see a few places where they were already standing still with new jams. Then I got chased away by fighters."
You take a quick look at the man's rank, a mere lieutenant, but he seems sincere and honest. "Thank you, now return to your unit, this might get rocky."

As the pilot leaves you grab the phone and contacts Dessloch. "GET EVERYTHING IN THE AIR!!! I want the traficjam blasted to bits, send in the level bombers first, then the divebombers and tankkillers. And don't forget the gun-Stukas at Kerch." Dessloch is surprisingly calm and merely gives an acknowledgement. Then you get in touch with Hoth. He has also heard of the jam but is less inclined to attack than you are now.
"I understand Erich, but my panzers are not ready, we didn't expect an attack out of the blue like this."
"Then attack with what you have got. Open up with the artillery until the troops can get under way."
"Hm... I don't like this at all, but fine I'll do it. Btw, has the Führer gotten wind of this?"
"Heh... no, but he will as soon as we are sharing a drink with Model and von Kluge in Kursk."
"Ahhh, good. Then I will get right at it."

Within a few minutes you can hear the rumble of artillery laying a smackdown on the frontlines, the screeching of nebelwerfers join in the cacophany, meanwhile a low hum permeates the air... The planes are heading into battle. Hundreds of them it seems, Heinkels and Junkers en masse, escorted by scores of fighters. It is a most impressive spectacle and you are indeed happy not to be a Russian today.
You turn to your aide, "contact von Kluge and inform him of what is going on. I'm going to visit Hoth."

After only 15 minutes of artillery fire the Panthers and their infantry roll into action. Their long guns easily blasting Russian guns to bits as they advance, their infantry storming bunkers and other emplacements. Dased Russain infantry are soon being herded to the rear by MPs. The Panthers advance easily because they know the land from their earlier excursions, and because every single night the Das Reich engineers and escorts have fought a vicious battle with Russian engineers over the minefields in no-mans land, keeping the numbers of mines low.
But besides the success of Das Reich, you find that the other divisions are trying to advance with infantry along with a few ready tanks. Initially it goes well, as the Russians have built up to face a heavy armoured assault, and the artillery and infantry easily takes care of the guns, but losses have been high from the covering machineguns and strong infantry positions.

As noon comes, it is clear that most of the forwards Russian positions are taken. And now the tanks are finally coming into action behind the infantry (the engineers are furiously trying to clear paths through the captured minefields), but some are quickly disabled by mines. The attack on the next lines is taken in full stride by the tanks while the infantry has had time for a short rest. This time however it is not going nearly as well as hoped.
First of all the Russian positions are much stronger than the first lines with many more infantry positions, and your infantry are quickly bogged down, meanwhile the tanks try to offer support to their attacks, but as soon as they advance they run into minefields and put under fire from perfectly covered AT guns.

You arrive at Hoth's HQ around 3 o'clock in the afternoon, but he is anything but happy. The tough general with the stony eyes greets you with a major frown on his forehead.
"Erich, this is turning out to be a white elephant. I have heard that Model can't attack until in two days, the Russians are bringing in reinforcements and my advance is too damn slow. We have run into minefields and simply can't advance for the moment. Luckily the Russian artillery seems to be preoccupied with the trafficjam to be much of the nuisance, and our planes are intercepting the Russian attackplanes. So we are pretty much free, but we can't use it for much."
This is most disturbing for you, it seems you were a bit too hasty in your attack, and now the tanks are getting disabled in the minefields in great numbers.
"How goes the Flammkatzen?"
"Well, there we have an outright success. They have suffered quite a few casualties, but with the infantry and recovery vehicles nearby all the tanks have been recovered. Further only 3 tanks have suffered fires, and 5 in total have broken down. Even now their infantry is taking Streletskoye at the ridge of the hills."

The assault continues until the darkness falls, along with rain... The infantry suffers out in the cold rain while the ground will soon become boggy. The hum of planes passing back and forth continues, and you can see on the edge of horizon several large explosions and large fires. Meanwhile the artillery takes a few individual fireorders from the forward positions. The batteries going off now and then. Besides you you can see vehicles moving up to the front, carrying all kind of equipment, but you notice that a lot of it is engineer equipment and engineers themselves. They are moving up to clear the minefields... It is the usual night of an attack.
The almost complete absence of Russian artillery has been merciful on the infantry. Their exposed attacks were only harried by mortars and infantryguns, and these were quickly overwhelmed by the speed of the infantry or the weight of the metal falling on them.
Dessloch himself called you earlier that the trafficjam is a blazing inferno of burning tanks and trucks, and large explosions of ammo and fuel. In fact, he reckoned that his polits would be able to attack deep into the night using the light from the fires to attack further vehicles. But at the same time he is disappointed that there were far fewer tanks than first anticipated.
You are yourself rather discouraged, the total losses of tank the first day have been massive, more than 100 tanks have been disabled, luckily most by mines, and have thus been salvaged by recovery vehicles. But they are still lost to you tomorrow, and likely for quite a few days yet. Further Kempf's forces are in no state to attack at the moment. You only gave him orders for the rearrangement two days ago and his forces are strung out on the roads. Quite a few of the tanks are ready, but they lack most of their infantry and artillery.
Lastly, the Russians do not seem all that affected by the lack of armour close to the front. They have fought with tenacity and determination beyond what they did last year, they haven't surrendered in masses yet. Basically all prisoners have come from the front positions, where the dregs and worts troops have been positioned.

This has not gone as you hoped at all, it has been damned near a comeplete disaster, but at least the 1st Experimental Panther Battalion has done extremely well, and its advance has put a rather large dent into the Russian lines, but even they have noted that there are furher enemy positions ahead of them, though hardly as strong as the ones overrun today.

You wonder what your next course of action should be.

1) Carry on tomorrow. The minefields should be cleared, at least most of them. The Russians were obviously taken by tactical surprise as they didn't expect your attack, and they have suffered heavy losses. The Russian support branches around Butovo are smashed and there is no sight of the tanks. Also, by carrying on you can ignore Hitler for a while yet.

2) Halt completely. Your losses to the tanks have been very heavy, but most are only out of comission for a handful of days, so you are at the moment weakened significantly in tanks, limiting your offensive capabilities. Meanwhile you have taken the hills covering your approach. They will now seve as perfect defensive positions and great stagingpoints for the next attack when the tanks are back from the shops in numbers.

3) Your losses are too heavy to carry on in full yet, but the Panthers are not significantly affected by losses, due to your prudent action of having the technicians nearby for several actionfilled weeks. Give them complete support by the 503rd Heavies and have the two battalions with most of Das Reich (least affected by mines) run rampant in the rear of the Russian positions.

4) While you surprised the Russians, your own men were surpsrised as well, they need time to adjust. Shift more forces into the succesful Das Reich area and carry on the attack from there, expanding the burgeoning breach to facilitate a more complete attack the day after tomorrow (when Model says he can finally attack).

[SwordsMaster]

number 4. Exploit the enemy's weakness

[Kagemusha]

number four.push the breach concentrate your forces.

[AggonyDuck]

I was a bit split between three and four, but I'll personally go with nr.3.
We're just not truly in a position to take advantage of Das Reichs success yet.

[Geoffrey S]

Isn't this heading towards the original Backhand approach, but applied by the Russians?

[AntiochusIII]

Number 3, halt, restore, and attack. The Blitzkrieg is over - now it's time to actually stand firm, raise the pikes, and become the storm crushing through the Russian forces - slowly but surely. The Russians would expect you to Blitz, and they would be prepared. Let the panzers harass the Russians out of their mind while you recover for another blow.

One, full scale blitz, would completely exhaust your forces and leave them prey to the numerically superior Russians. Two would guarantee the Russian reinforcing again, and the momentum and opportunity lost - completely. Four would push some of your forces ahead too far and become the battle of the Bulge.

[Kraxis]

Isn't this heading towards the original Backhand approach, but applied by the Russians?

Perhaps... I might have plans, and they might include that, but as with everything in this thread I can't tell you anything for certain besides regular info. So remember, if you are confused about something orjust want more info (how many prisoners did we take? things like that for instance), say so, then I will try my best to answer.

Change of plans

When the fighting finally died down, and the calm was only broken by intermittent artilleryfire and the lonely bombers and recon planes flying back and forth, you sit back in a cushioned chair at Hoth's headquarters. Sitting there you try to imagine what your Russian counterparts, Zhukov, Rokossovsky and Vasilevsky is doing. It must be a hell of a night for them, Stalin breathing down their necks and most of a Guards Army without artillery it seems. But you have your own woes, Hitler is at the forefront there. In fact you expect him to call you soon to hear what is going on.
You decide that the truth is the best weapon, you attacked because you had a golden opportunity, but you'd better leave out the losses suffered to mines.

Speaking of the devil! Hoth's aide brings you a phone, it is Hitler!
You answer it, and for a long second there is no answer, then finally Hitler speaks in a groweling tone: "What in hell is going on?!?! I told you to wait!"
"But Mein Führer, I was presented with a most auspicious chance I simply had to take. We have made good progress."
"You should have consulted me! I'm your commander. And I wouldn't say that taking a few hills is much progress in Russia. I can't afford this kind of warfare, Stalin can."
"Unfortunately there wasn't time to contact you, besides you were asleep at the time, I didn't want to wake you up. These hills are insignificant to your grand plans I'm sure, but to this operation they are vital."
"So how have my Panthers done?"
The question you dreaded... If you tell the truth, Hitler might think it is all his benefit, and he might even force you to call off further attacks 'now that you have gotten a perfect sprinboard for later attacks'. You decide to tell him a white lie.
"They have done fairly well."
"Explain!"
"When they have engaged the enemy in combat they have done very well, their guns and good armour have proven their worth. But sadly the tanks are too unreliable, they break down as soon as the wind changes or there is lump on the road."
Hitler only makes grumbling noises to that, but eventually he does talk again.
"So what now... The attack has been begun, I don't expect you to back down from it."
"Well, we were surprised by the events as well, so the attack wasn't perfect. I will continue the attack tomorrow by an open venue I have found in the Russian lines. But don't expect a total victory as it will be fairly limited in it's scope."
"Hmm... I will have to talk with my staff about this."
"I would prefer that you did not. There is little they can do that I can't. I will keep you informed regularly."
"Do not forget that you are not infallible and that prepared defences have stopped you before (Sevastopol 41)."
"I do not Mein Führer."
For a few minutes you entertain the armchair strategist in the guise of a statesman, but finally Hitler is drawn to more interesting issues.

During the night you and Hoth reform the troops in great extent. You redeploy Grossdeutchland to the rear of Das Reich along with the 503rd Heavies and the 332nd. This forces you to extent the other divisions' zones of control, but you don't expect that to be much troube as you have hit them hard. They are more likely to try to contain Das Reich. Hoth handles the details and the direct commands while you make certain that the roads are open and that the supplies are ready in the morning. It is a gruelling task for the both of you, and you fall asleep only minutes before the new attack is launched, just before the first light breaks.

Having learned a lot from the previous day the 1st Experimental Panther Battalion follows in the wake of a rolling barrage with infantry covered by the tanks. This time the artillery reports a counterbattery fire is fired from the Russian lines, but it is scattered and seemingly confused. As soon as the Panthers encounter organized resistance they speed up and let the infantry charge the enemy positions. Covered by the Russian fortifications the Panthers halt, keeping the nearby enemy positions under fire. Finally their support arrives, the Tigers of 503rd. They drive right through into the heaviest fire, as soon as they pass the Panthers take up flanking positons covering the weaker Panzer IIIs at the rear of the Tigers. Together they advance northwest, until any further would bring them too far away.
For hours the battle rages, then suddenly the Tigers and Panthers are suprisingly attacked by strong tank forces of some 30-40 T-34s in each individual force. The open ground and good aircover break these attacks, though losses are inevitable. But the technicians and the support troops of the two batalions take good care of the tanks that break down (a problem that still haunts the Panthers).

The rest of Das Reich have followed on to the north, as the heavier tanks swerved to the west a bit to face the strongest resistance northeast of Butovo in the form of the remnants of the 67th Guards Rifle Division (the unlucky recipients of the attack yesterday). The advance is quickly heading for the village of Olkhovka where forces of 69th Army are positioned.
Meanwhile Grossdeutchland have been heading almost directly west towards Butovo in an attempt to cut off 71st Guards Rifle. Their rear is a mess due to the unexpected shift of the heavy tanks and it is totally unguarded. The tanks of Grossdeutchland 'plunder the nest' and eventually they link up with infantry from 3rd Panzer, the bag is closed by no less than four divisions, inside it is the 71st GR, the 51st GR and parts of the 161st Rifle division of 40th Army. The entire left flank is thus secured with numerous prisoners taken.
It is quickly learned from the regimental commander of 199th GR Regiment that the tanks from the entire 3rd Mechanized Corps were suppoed to have covered the rear, but to his surprise they never arrived. They had been stopped somewhere further north, there sat the Tigers and Panthers, fighting off attack after attack on their protected position. And because of the slaughter of vehicles the day before north of Butovo the only route south (and into the flank of Grossdeutchland) was through them.

This though, has taken most of the day and Grossdeutchland is highly disorganized, they will need some time to reform as Totenkopf advances to take its place to the east of her.
The 332nd Infantry Division advances to keep the rear of the heavy tanks and the flank of Das Reich clear from attack from the east. To your great dismay they suffer a serious setback when the tanks of 2nd Guards Tanks Corps attackes them in the middle of their advance. The tenacity of the infantry and their supporting artillery along with the few gun-Stukas hold off the tanks until nightfall, but losses have been heavy among the trucks, other vehicles and support troops. As the evening fall they hold back a few other attacks made from the 39th and 31st Rifle Divisions, but these were weak, possibly because they had been involved in heavy fighting during the Kharkov battles.

Das Reich on the other hand has during the day advanced as far as the outskirts of Yakovlevo, on the Belgorod-Oboyan highway, an advance of 7 miles, and directly down between the 3rd Mech Corps and the 5th Tank Corps. Advancing further is folly so they stay put.

The result of the day is a surprisingly large advance and a good capture of troops. You hadn't expected that when you ordered the attack. Perhaps the Russians simply haven't got the depth and stamina for this fight? But as noted the day has been very tough on both Grossdeutchland and 332nd Infantry. And the Heavy Tanks are continually under attack from various forces of 3rd Mech Corps. Their fall would open up the entire flank of both Das Reich and Grossdeutchland, and the rear of 332nd Infantry. But as the darkness falls the tankattacks stop while infantry tries to infiltrate towards the encircled forces. For the moment the infantry of the two battalions and their support infantry can hold it, but it is not certain.

Also today the Russian artillery finally woke up, and delivered their first proper 'services' to the troops, especially the 332nd suffered from that, but also the Heavy Tanks in Hell's Foreyard, as their position has become known because of the continual and varied attacks, have suffered casualties to artillery.
Even the Russian planes have performed better today. Several bomber formations have attacked your lines, but to your great relief thay have concentrated on the intial positions of Das Reich, so your armour have for the most part gone free, but again the poor 332nd was in the middle of it.

All in all a very positive day. Now you wonder if you should wait at all. Hoth as always is all for another surprising attack, and argues that you should use the heavy tanks to the northeast to blunt the tanks of 5th Tanks Corps, while Das Reich goes deep behind 3rd Mech Corps and Liebstandarte protects the flank to the east.

1) Continue to expand the breach, this time to the east, in the hope that Kempf might finally bring up his forces to close the gap when Liebstandarte and 11th Panzer breaks east. Meanwhile you hold the rest in place.

2) Pull Grossdeutchland's tanks up to Hell's Foreyard to shore up that position during the night. Then go on the offensive in the morning, hopefully this will catch the Russians with their tanks in the open for another attack. The rest you keep on the defensive.

3) Take Hoth up on his idea and redeploy the 332nd to Hell's Foreyard while the Tigers and Panthers deploy to the northeast and Leibstandarte takes over from 332nd on the east flank.

4) Concentrate your efforts on reducing the Russian troops caught in the bag south of Butovo. You need your lines firm and strong, that can't be achieved with several of your best divisions caught up in guarding trapped enemies. Besides you need some time still for both Kempf and Model to add their weight and for the disabled tanks to begin to retun in numbers. Local attacks to gain specific postions are of course to be advocated.

[AntiochusIII]

Choice 4, I think. You are risking overextending yourself as it's your armour corps that wins the day today, and they are now in the disadvantaged position. The capture of the trapped Russian divisions would satisfy Hitler while you re-organize the messed up battle lines and look forward for the re-increase in the number of tanks. Parts of the Russian forces that were "asleep" during your earlier attacks are now "waking up", as you said. With more active Russian air and artillery activity you cannot risk another blitzkrieg, not while some of your troops are exhausted and others occupied, unable to provide an overwhelming weight on the Russians.

[DemonArchangel]

Finish reducing the encircled Russian troops. You need to do it in order to shore up your lines, as your troops have seen some extremely heavy fighting and are on the verge of collapsing.

But first, you need to reorganize and reinforce your forces. Beef up the line by bringing Grossdeutchland's tanks into Hell's Front Yard, and attach some spare infantry battalions to the 332nd infantry division before deploying them in order to make sure that they don't collapse due to casualties and combat exhaustion. If you can, try to use your airplanes to take out the Russian's artillery and airplanes during the night. Turn Hell's Front Yard into a heavy defensive position with LAH and Totenkopf guarding the flanks until the troops in the pocket can be reduced, before going on the offensive again. That way, you can be certain of your own supply and fuel lines, and allow for Kempf and Model to arrive at the battlefield.

[discovery1]

Agreed. Reduce the pocket. I keep having visions of those inside making a breakout that cuts off your forces....

[GoreBag]

Number 4. It's like playing Risk and trying to conquer Asia in one turn. It's not gonna last. Spreading yourself out thin is not good.

[dgfred]

I fear a massive Russian tank counterattack shortly, especially to breakout
the trapped units. So #4 is my choice after bringing up Grossdeuchland and
relieving 322 to at most seige perimeter of the trapped units. Maybe a
backhand slap may still be possible as I can't see the Russians just sitting
back at this point in the war and letting those troops just be slaughtered or
taken prisoner.

[Kraxis]

Settling the matters

You shake your head at Hoth. "No my friend, we have to reduce the Russian troops caught at the moment befoer we can resume any advance. When they are taken care of only the 1st Tank Army stand in our way, we will have almost wiped out the 6th Guards Army."
"True, but we are exposed as it is. If we allow the Russians to strengthen their positions they might bring in enough reinforcements to halt us."
"Soon both Model and Kempf join us. If the Russians take forces from the north then Model will have little trouble reaching at least Ponryi, and the open terrain in the north will go a long way towards getting him there."
The two of your continue the talks and you basically settle on a quick reduction of the two GR divisions. Hopefully they will surrender fast.
Late in the evening Hausser contacts the two of you, he feels that Das Reich is in a very precarious position with two strong armoured forces on either of its flanks. He asks that the two strong tank battalions be moved up to its positions to halt any armoured attacks on Das Reich. You tell him that SSR will have to weather any attacks on its own, the Panthers and Tigers will stay put, they need to protect the vulnerable back of Grossdeutchland (GD). Further, it is more likely that the 3rd Mech Corps will continue it's attacks on Kampfgruppe Heidekamp (the two battalions of heavy tanks) rather than turn and attack Das Reich.

The night follows the same pattern as the previos night with the difference that the encircled Russian forces try to punch their way out in a rather uncoordinated fashion, and the artillery of the local forces easily deal with them. Also Obersturmbannführer Heidekamp, the commander of Kampfgruppe Heidekamp reports of continual infiltration attacks on his position. He lacks the infantry to deal with them. All you can do is to have artillery bombard the area in front of his position and hope for the best.

In the morning 3rd Panzer, Totenkopf and 255th Infantry attack the pocket in force, supported by heavy artillery and some infantry from GD. Lacking their rear echelons of infantry and support branches (captured yesterday by GD) the elements of the three Russian divisions have no chance at all. Yet the two Guards units fight on with a tenacity seldomly seen, but the troops of 161st Rifle break within an hour and open up for a further attack on the flanks of the two other units. The few tanks of 3rd Panzer plough into them and organized defense falls apart.
Just after noon new long lines of prisoners head towards Germany for use in the industry.

Unlike GD the day at Hell's Foreyard is anything but easy. Right before dawn a new attack of tanks fly at the Kampgruppe, this time it contains KV-1 tanks at it's head and infantry at the rear. The placement of the German tanks makes certain that a large number of guns can be brought to bear on the Russian forces, but besides small earth embankments in front of the tanks there is nothing to protect them. And the infantry has a hard time in keeping out of sight. But as before the attack is too weak in both organisation and in planning. You realize quickly that the position will be the focuspoint for the Russians in the sector, and you order Dessloch to keep a dense guard of fighters and Stukas overhead to intercept both Russian air and ground forces. This comes at the cost of the rest of the front, in particular the western part of your forces.
The next few hours are silent, but for determined Russian airattacks, though these in the end are quite costly. Then suddenly a massive artillery bombardment saturates the ground, guns and rockets fall in dense clusters on the exposed position. Finally smoke is laid over your forces, but Heidekamp is a smart fellow and orders an advance of the tanks out of the smokescreen. Outside the screen they come into contact with a massive Russian tankforce, quickly Heidekamp's tanks halt and try to fight a battle at distance, while the Russians speed up to close in. You follow the tactical battle with great interest.

Meanwhile Das Reich is itself also under attack, but not from 3rd Mech Corps but from the east by 5th Guards Tanks Corps. The attack is quite well controlled and the tanks advance in dense clusters with the infantry riding on the back or run alongside, while artillery falls on Das Reich from both sides. The density and power of the attack forces Das Reich backwards a short distance until the attack halts for unknown reasons. This gives the tanks of the divisions an opportunity to counterattack and they regain the lost positions. But Hausser is on the verge of giving up the entire position when another attack is started. You order him to keep the division in place and send Liebstandarte (LAH) north to hit the Russuans in their flank. You hope this will stop the attacks, but it will throw your careful setup into the wind, though this is more less what has happened everywhere else so far.

Totenkopf quickly disengages from the mopping up and manages to launch an attack west of Butovo, it is hoped that they might link up at Hell's Foreyard but the disorganized attack is slow to get off and the defenses have been strengthened significantly the last two days and the attack breaks ups. GD moves east as 3rd Panzer and 255th mops up the last resistance areas, as they cross the line of Totenkopf they disorganize the latter but their movement i supposed to send reinforcements to the exposed northwestern shoulder of the bulge.

As the massive tankbattle northeast of Butovo plays out you get more and more uncertain. The about 70 heavy tanks of the Kampfgruppe fight like the cats they are named after but enemy numbers is very impressive, and losses have thus far been quite significant but their control of the battlefield has enabled the support sections to recover the knocked out tanks worth recovering.

Hoth is once again aggressive and impatient. He argues that you should wait for LAH to hit the 5th Guards Tanks Corps in the flank, then attack with Das Reich into the flank of 3rd Mech Corps to halt the attack on the exposed shoulder.

Hausser, known for defying Hitler when he withdrew from Kharkov, has much the same in mind now, when he calls you. He still want to pull back Das Reich to a less exposed position, from there it is safe and can support Hell's Foreyard against 3rd Mech Corps' attacks.

You are yourself not certain and you think up several options.

1: Follow Hoth's advise. Support Heidekamp with all the artillery and all the planes you can spare, and some that you can't spare, and hope that it is enough until LAH hits 5th Tank Guards in the flank, letting Das Reich strike at 3rd Mech Corps. It should be weak from armoured losses the previous day, and an attack here could be decisive.

2: Have Heidekamp conduct a fighting retreat from his exposed position, this should send his forces right back to LAH and their positions. Halt LAH directly east of Butovo and prepared to recieve both the enemy and Heidekamps tanks.

3: Let Hausser retreat Das Reich to a position where it is protected by LAH. There it can support the Panthers and Tiger. This is a very safe approach but unfortunately it might impact the morale of the men and the Russians will likely strengthen their positions for your next attcks.

4: Do nothing at the moment, but keep a close eye on the action so you can react to any development. This is perhaps risky, but you are confident that Das Reich is stronger than Hausser claims, together with LAH it will be able to rip open the entire 5th Tank Guards Corps. Kampfgruppe Heidekamp simply has to grit it's teeth and hang in there until GD can reach its positions. You will of course keep it heavily supported with aircover and artillery.

[DemonArchangel]

Kraxis, may I please have a map of the area, with the known locations of the Russian forces (or at least a quickie description)

It's getting a bit hard to keep track.

[Kraxis]

Kraxis, may I please have a map of the area, with the known locations of the Russian forces (or at least a quickie description)

It's getting a bit hard to keep track.

You know I would love to... I sensed a bit of confusion in the last decision. I have searched far and wide but most are woefully inadequate or in Russian (and thus I don't know what they really present).

The best I can do it to present the front as it looks now and add a small hastily created paint image of the front as it looked. Then I hope you can imagine the units by my description:

Now imagine that the black is the front before the attack, the blue is the highway, and the red is from left to right, Butovo, Yakovlevo and Belgorod.

At about two thirds the length of the salient from the west we find the village of Butovo. It is about 4 miles in from the front along the highway and railway towards Oboyan (about halfway to Kursk). The front is not perfect east-west but tilts a bit southwards.

South of Butovo and a bit west we find 3rd Panzer and 255th in the process of of mopping up. To the northwest of them, and to the west of Butovo, we find Totenkopf, currently reorganizing. Opposing Totenkopf we have elements of 3rd Mech Corps, elements of 40th Army and the paltry remains of 67th GR Division. They are a mishmash of various troops thrown onto the position, but they are supported by boggy terrain.
To the east of Butovo we have our breakthrough, it is about 10 miles wide at the moment, and about 12 miles deep. At its tip we find Das Reich near the town of Yakovlevo, also at this point we find the river Vorskla, small though and hardly of impact. The town is about 10 miles east and 5 miles north of Butovo. Thus if the front is tilted to the south initially it will position the town at the center of the breakthrough as it moves slightly northeast. From it is is possible to go directly north towards Oboyan.
Das Reich has the main forces of 3rd Mech Corps to its west and 5th Guards Tank Corps to the east. Thus in front of Das Reich are elements of 5th.
Moving along the front southeast of Butovo we have Grossdeutchland, heading for the Kampfgruppe with all haste.

Just northeast of Butovo we find the Kampfgruppe, they occupy a bit of the highway and thus a very important connection to the now lost troops. That is the reason for the furious attacks on them, they were in the way.
The rear of Das Reich is guarded by 332nd Infantry, behind them we find the Liebstandarte. They were basically at the front, but have since pushed up, and are now ready to push up to Das Reich alongside 332nd. Effectively widening the breach a bit. On the rear right we have 11th Panzer. The opposition here is dug in deep, and consist of the 31st, 39th, 92nd GR and 375th, going all the way to Belgorod.

When/if GD and LAH arrives at their assigned positions you have a very strong force ready. Being GD (possibly with Totenkopf to the west), Das Reich and LAH (possibly with 11th Panzer to the east), and at your descretion Kampfgruppe Heidekamp.

Behind and to the west of 3rd Mech Corps we find 31st Tank Corps.

[AggonyDuck]

I'm personally a bit torn up between 1 or 2.
The first one depends on the actual strength of LAH, if you aren't able to defeat the Guards Tank Corps then you're in a world of pain. On the other hand number two is risky, but if it works it might be worth it, but the risks are too big for me.

So I'll go with 1, because I believe LAH should be able to crush the 5th Guards Tank. If they succeed in it, then things might be fine..

[DemonArchangel]

IMO, the 5th Tank guards wouldn't leave their flank open. It's either a trap, or a form of extreme stupdity. Have Das Reich hold off the 5th Tk Corps for as long as possible (with artillery and airsupport of course) while performing recconaissance on the russian forces. If Das Reich is about to get encircled, allow it to make a withdrawal to LAH in order to await further attacks.

If the recco shows that the 5th Tk is indeed exposed, then attack.
If it's a trap, change my tactics accordingly.

[dgfred]

IMO, the 5th Tank guards wouldn't leave their flank open. It's either a trap, or a form of extreme stupdity. Have Das Reich hold off the 5th Tk Corps for as long as possible (with artillery and airsupport of course) while performing recconaissance on the russian forces. If Das Reich is about to get encircled, allow it to make a withdrawal to LAH in order to await further attacks.

If the recco shows that the 5th Tk is indeed exposed, then attack.
If it's a trap, change my tactics accordingly.

Excellent choice , especially the recon part. I agree with D A .

[Kraxis]

Let me this clearly. You want a #1 and a #3 in case it is not as easy. Trouble is that Das Reich is fighting teeth and nails here. It is not certain that they can spare the forces or perhaps even get around the enemy spearheads to do recon.

Remember this though. We are talking massive scales here. Hitting enemy formations in the flank is disasterous, even if you prepare for it, it leaves all your tactical and strategic considerations in dire straits. Das Reich has pretty much been hit in the front so far so it has been able to weather such attacks.

Lastly Das Reich attacked deep into the enemy heartland here. The 5th GT were supposed to be an active reserve, not end up as a second line of defense.
The Soviet system of defense was centered around tenacious first lines and large operational reserves.

So the point of #1, can LAH make it in time, and will they be strong enough?

[DemonArchangel]

I don't need DR to do recco. Recco can be done later, the Russians aren't likely to secure their flanks in the time LAH can travel 10 miles. And again, if it gets too desperate, DR can run off.

[Kagemusha]

Take option number one.Let the strongest of enemy forces to exhaust them selves against your battle line they will be so focused on their attack that liebstardarte will crush them when they reach their flank.You are making Russians do exactly what you want them to do.exellent.

[JimBob]

You could get your backhand by withdrawing. Fall back and suck the Russians in. But that is risky, largest payoff but lady luck hasn't been Manstein's best friend throughout this. So go with number one, although if Kraxis would be so kind as to provide the improtant numbers on LAH and DR/5th and 3rd that could sway it.

[GoreBag]

Number 1. Just a little longer.

[Franconicus]

Kraxis,
what is the situation in the air. Do we control the air over the battle field now? Did Hartmann clear the sky?

[Kraxis]

Kraxis,
what is the situation in the air. Do we control the air over the battle field now? Did Hartmann clear the sky?

It is a confused situation. Neither side has enough planes, and while you have managed to concentrate a large part of the eastern airpower your sudden attack has thrown the flyers themselves into confusion.
The effect is that often neither side can do much about ground attacks but have CAPs in place over important areas. Hartmann has indeed had some success, but the Russians have so far abstained from their usual 'big wing' attacks.
You have about 1500 planes in all, while the Russians are simply unknown, but thei lack of large scale attacks indicate that they are not too strong, perhaps 2500 at most.

Das Reich has about 90 tanks LAH has just recieved enough repaired vehicles to put it at 100 tanks. Both are pretty much at peak with infantry, though Das Reich has suffered some losses to their point units. So they are respectively at 16000 and 17000 troops.

The two Russian corps sound strong (well a corps is a strong formation), but air recon suggests that 3rd Mech is currently severely weakened in tanks with about 130 left and some 25000 troops, while 5th Guards Tanks are save the losses suffered during their two failed attacks at good strength with about 330 tanks and 35000 troops. This is sadly not facts but rather estimates from the pilots and intelligence officers.

Do not forget that a strong German division is often equated with a strong Russian corps at this time

[Franconicus]

Retreat! I think Stalin will order his general to start a counter attack at once. And start a massive air strike against the Soviet air force. Those Il2 can really spoil your day!

[DemonArchangel]

Whatever you do, do not retreat without giving the Russians a fight first.