Holy Roman Headache!

[dgfred]

An almost 'predictable future' is the reason I too hardly ever finish a game.

The HRE is more = never a dull moment . I have also tried on expert
and the difference is less money, fewer (if you can believe that)
good acumen governors, and a more aggressive AI. Not as much fun to me
because of the lack of govs at the start. I like at least 4 quills for a gov.
Other factions are much easier on the harder levels, but that is why I like
to stay with HRE .

[ajaxfetish]

Frankly I think I was getting bored with the interminable troop movements each turn entailed and it was looking increasingly like I was going to win but it would still take hours of slog to do so. It's the uncertainty about what might happen next which maintains my interest in the game and a predictable future makes me want to pack it in and start another one.

Same here. I have yet to finish a game to 100% on the medieval map (a few times on Viking). Once my empire reaches a critical mass the chance of failure pretty much goes away, and so does the fun. It's a bummer because I like working up to some of the supercool late period troops (gothic knights, swiss armoured pikes, etc.), and by the time I get there there's nothing to challenge them. After a battle or two with a high-tech army everyone just withdraws to avoid you. I'd love to see AI factions fielding more of these types of guys.

[EatYerGreens]

I spent so much time on the forum yesterday that I didn't get any time to progress the game itself and I've kind of lost the thread of where I'd got to.

Here's the most recent map picture I took, which is already some years back.



I forget how many kings I've killed off so far, I think it must be three. After paying me 10k to get their king back and already three provinces down, it was almost understandable that the Italians sent their king and a prince by themselves and got them both killed. In a way, the AI is clever enough to suicide itself when deep in irreversible debt as at least there's a chance of re-emergence with a magically restored bank balance! Two English kings have also got themselves killed in Saxony.

In their latest invasion, they again arrived with overwhelming numbers and I abandoned the place without a fight, so as to be able to counterattack with a better choice of troops. This time their king stayed at home, so perhaps he's still young and has no heirs yet, so it's not taking any risks. Instead, he sends Nobles to look after business. Things must be getting desperate as he sent over no less than 4 governors too. Here's what became of them...



Haw, haw, haw. (Is that gloaty enough?)

Oh, the best is yet to come. I don't know if you get to see this sort of thing often but here's what popped up right after that message.



And, just to cap it off, my leader gained a rank, following that battle, making him command 4. He started as rank 3, I checked the battle result screens and it is indeed his fourth victory (rank 3 = 4 wins, rank 4 = 8 wins). Luckily abandoning provinces without battle doesn't count against your tally but this can work against you when the AI pulls out without battle, preventing a green general, say, from gaining a star.

The timing of their excom couldn't have been any better. I'd got the Chapter House under way in Franconia and it wasn't long before I'd trained up my first crusade marker.

That last battle in Saxony hit the English hard. They'd had just over 1000 men there and none of them came home. The French also let me be for a change so a number of turns went by without any further attacks. I get the feeling that we've turned a corner and the AI factions no longer feel in a position to do us any mischief. At the third attempt (three times the expense, in other words), the fort in Saxony finally gets completed and, at last, I can leave it a small garrison and defend from Franconia, as before, only this time they get no income from there if they do invade.

Toulouse has nearly two stacks of English in it, so I launch my crusade at Anjou - it's got 80% farms and is worth 666 florins a year to them. The Pope fully approves and charges me nothing. Zeal in Franconia is something like 86% (I have a lot of 'Fervent' generals and 'Zealot' governors at the moment). In spite of that, I don't get the horde of fanatics I expected, just 1 unit of Gothic Knights and 2 of Gothic Sergeants. I have to stuff it with peasants and a big chunk of Lorraine's garrison to get it up to 1400 men, though I do bung a Swabian Swords unit in there to make sure it packs a punch. When it arrives at its destination the English retreat to the keep without any battle, which is a bit of a let-down. That's the point at which I saved the game. I expect to suffer some minor losses due to the siege but I can live with that. I did drop it on the castle to trigger an assault, then thought twice and cancelled it because it said the castle should fall in one year. As we all know, this usually means a handful of defenders will remain but I can autocalc an assault right after that, with good chance of success and only light casualties.

It was tempting to keep the crusade hanging around for a while because the suspension of maintainance costs caused my cashflow to shoot up to over 1000 per year (previously around 500) but I thought I might as well get on with it, get the next crusade trained and then set about getting the GA crusade goals while there's still time.

The crusade has already boosted my leader's influence up to 5 and heirs are being born at a steady rate, so they should benefit from that. A number of princes have recently come of age, mixture of 2 and 3 stars so they are spreading around the Empire to head up my principal stacks and I'm more comfortable about my chances in forthcoming battles.

Taking Anjou disconnects England's continental holdings, so I'm expecting to be attacked there on a regular basis and need to defend it well. If I'm lucky, it may force them to redistribute their ships, in order to move troops about and this should cut their trade with the Danes. If the two of them war, then it will need to keep its ships in the north to prevent invasion of the Isles, which only have tiny garrisons.

If I'm very lucky, they will use troops from Toulouse to recapture Anjou and the movement may give me an opportunity to take Toulouse once again.

The Poles recently sent forces into Saxony and Bohemia but, in spite of what looked like bigger stacks, decided they could not win both battles. May have been down to foul weather? Wait until GA points year approaches, I think I may pay Silesia a visit.

[dgfred]

Nice work EYG , you seem to be turning the corner of victory .

Smack the Poles, they shouldn't give you too much trouble and that will be
the last problems you have with them. Are the Byzantines 'loyal' to you?
They seem to have a fixation with getting Venice in my games instead of
protecting/conquering eastward . Looking forward to your
updates .

[EatYerGreens]

Nice work EYG , you seem to be turning the corner of victory .

Well, the constant attacking seems to have abated, at least for now, so it does feel like turning a corner and some stablity has been reached. It's now my turn to take the initiative on who gets attacked and when.

Once the Anjou crusade finishes sieging and unlocks its troops, I'm hoping that province will focus the attentions of the English for long enough for me to get more infrastructure into Saxony. I won't mind if I ultimately lose Anjou again, as long as the fighting is there and not in the homelands.

In fact, it will be a while before more building in Saxony as Genoa now has its port and the shipbuilder starts on the next turn. The cost of the first pair of ships isn't great but the tresury is low enough that it will make a significant dent, so there are limits as to how many builds I can do at once. It simply requires some patience on my part but the ships have priority as that gives me the income to do other things. It only remains to be seen whether the Sicilian and Byz ships, off my southern coast, will even allow me to gain a foothold and trade at all, or whether they will fight and blockade right away.

Naples is an item on the HRE goals but Sicily holds it now and that will cost me trade and troop movement ability straight away. I think that's only worth one point too, making it seem more trouble than it's worth. Rome is 3 points on the HRE goal but that means instant excom, for attacking the papacy, doesn't it? Must get that assassin chap up to 4 star or better, for that eventuality

Smack the Poles, they shouldn't give you too much trouble and that will be the last problems you have with them. Are the Byzantines 'loyal' to you? They seem to have a fixation with getting Venice in my games instead of protecting/conquering eastward . Looking forward to your updates .

I have a feeling I may need to leave the Poles alone, until after the Crusade goals come to an end, in 1205. I doubt I can afford to direct troops in both roles at one time.

Besides, I'm more keen on going after the French holdings on my western border. I think the last Papal warning for attacking them is time expired so I may make a grab for Flanders, then wait another decade at a time until I've got all three provinces on this side of the English. Strange to see the two of them allied at all and I hope that being boxed into Brittany will provoke the French to fight their way out of that trap and set them at one another's throats.

Enough chatter, time to get back to the game!

[EatYerGreens]

Shortly after their aborted invasions, the Polish king died, without heirs, so they turned rebel. That happened just at the end of the previous game session but I forgot to mention it.

The Byzantines wasted no time in taking Poland, which was held by two 3/4-sized stacks but it looks like the Byz didn't even have to fight for it. The rebels merely retreating to the keep and the excess lost, with no path of retreat. They went on to attack Pomerania but, on at least two occasions, decided they could not win the battle and it is still in rebel hands.

I only needed to take a modest force into Silesia to win, autocalced the fort assault but destroyed no less than 7 facilities, most of which would have been very handy to have but I'll settle for the cash instead. I've bulked up the garrison and hope to make the most of the river crossing to keep the Byz at bay.

Anjou was a completely different story. The English and French attacked together and I should have simply abandoned the place but I was in an 'experimental' sort of mood and, with odds of 1600 to 4100, wanted to see if I could tough it out and hoped that this was the first stage of a conflict breaking out between the two them. No such luck. They both attacked in a coordinated manner and I'd fogotten about outnumbering penalties. My archers still had about 95% of their ammo by the time they ran and it was a mass rout, with over 800 casualties registered. I had to refuse ransom on nearly 500 taken prisoner, as it was more than I had in the treasury at the time. The crusader general got 'good runner' for his troubles.

I don't know if the retreated crusade marker instantly acquired more troops on its return but it appeared to be well up to strength in spite of the losses. Some minor topping up enabled it to attack again and there was no auto-retreat by the English, this time.

I used three units of peasants to chase off the 4 artillery crews which they'd left exposed by retreating their main force to a steep hill and also to harrass some of the archers they sent down the slope to fire at me. The rest of the archery duel went my way and I had time to withdraw mine to allow mounted crossbows to come on as reinforcements, though I don't recall them arriving in time for the victory. As their archers headed uphill, as if out of ammo, my infantry gave chase. Some hobilars had engaged one of my units but, by coincidence, my spears were in just the right part of my line to make a quick left turn and hit them from behind. I think the bulk of their force must have been archers as the meleé at the top of the hill was surprisingly brief. Some reinforcements of theirs appeared at the foot of the hill but they did an about turn before I could engage with them.

My 'Good Runner' general regained his second star and his success leaves me confused about whether the -3 morale penalty that vice gives affects just his unit, or the entire crusade stack.

A 'mock attack' on Toulouse did assist in this victory, by preventing additional forces being brought in. There were less than 100 prisoners but the English refused to ransom them and thus Prince John and a Noble met their end.

This crusade still isn't finished though. The pattern repeated, with a joint French/English attack, I retreat, attack again, win another battle and so on.

I send Herrmann II into Champagne and the French retreat to the fort. The pope issues a warning for attacking the French and I put 100 peasants in place to sit out the siege, fully expecting a sally from the 100 FS and 100 spears they have but it doesn't happen. My king's force moves back in, on the following turn but the fort falls (demolished) without the need for any assault.

In the meantime, the Pope goes and attacks Tuscany and I retreat to the fort. Perhaps foolishly, I send in the Genoa stack and he pulls out but it means instant excommunication for me, putting an end to my crusade plans, with only 34 years remaining before those goals expire. My emperor is 57 and the pope is in his 40s. I may need to assault Rome and demolish its border forts to make assassination feasible. Another two victims have brought my one and only executioner up to valour 3. I've been unable to train more because the tavern is in a province busy producing fresh troops.

It may be a coincidence but, after the Pope's attack, I checked my GA goals again and the one for 'Holy Roman Empire' (Naples, Rome, Tuscany, Milan) has gone completely. I don't remember it having a range of dates for completionor anything. Any ideas?

Anyway, here's the current state of play. For the record, the crusade was launched in 1164, in Franconia, making its first attack in 1166.



EDIT: Reason - fix problem with image size.

[OlafTheBrave]

The HRE goal is counted three times during the campaign. Personaly I would recomend taking Rome while excommed and leaving the Pope to stew in the Papal States as Rome Generally has excellent infrastructure while the Papal States does not. In one game The pope was allied with me I took Rome and a couple of turns latter asked for and got a cease fire. The next turn the pope allies back with me and all is back running nice and smoothly. With the Pope you can just never tell what is going to happen. The bigest problem I have found with being ex-commed is religous revolts and not being able to crusade. Crusades laaunched against you are generally made up of a bunch of rabble anyway so dont panick if one gets launched.

Also with the HRE the empire is already at the start very close to pushing the bloat factor. I have found that holding all the HRE goal and Drag Noch Osten goals with your homelands seems to be safe while anymore provinces seems to start up the negative Vices with your govenors.

[EatYerGreens]

The HRE goal is counted three times during the campaign.

Ah, okay. It took me by surprise when it first appeared and it disappeared similarly, without warning. Wondered what was going on. I'll just have to keep a closer eye on the goals page from now on. It flashes at you after you load a gamesave, or return from the gamesave menu but, if you play ten years in succession, it doesn't seem to notify you of changes like this.

Personaly I would recomend taking Rome while excommed and leaving the Pope to stew in the Papal States as Rome Generally has excellent infrastructure while the Papal States does not.

The pic above shows Rome has the more advanced castle. I find it odd that he gets all Guild level troop training centres but never bothers to build the port. Even more confusing is that he has no archers and just a selection of UM, spears and Milserges and only half of those with armour upgrade.

It's tempting to break in, build a port, let him take it back, get a ceasefire and then trade with him. On the other hand, it's equally tempting to just break in, smash everything up for cash to build equivalent goodies in the heartland, where I don't have to worry about the province being taken back. Furthermore, Rome borders onto the Sicilians, in Naples, which would nip my trade income in the bud if they got any fancy ideas about crossing the border.

The bigest problem I have found with being ex-commed is religous revolts and not being able to crusade. Crusades laaunched against you are generally made up of a bunch of rabble anyway so dont panick if one gets launched.

Yes, I'm rapidly running out of time for crusades to the middle east. I think the only realistic chance I have is to get there by ship and I've a lot of shiips to build yet. The overland route is just too slow, with too many losses to desertion and fighting. Only the English have attempted a crusade so far (Tripoli) and I last saw it in Greece, having had to fight its way through Byz territories, let alone any Muslim areas. I later stumbled across their returned prisoners, up in Scotland!

No sign of crusades coming my way either. The English are also excommed at the moment (how often do you see more than one faction x-ed at the same time?), the French probably don't have the money (negative cashflow after losing provinces) and a quick survey of Spain didn't find any chapter house, surprisingly. If one does come, I think I should be able to drum up enough troops to fend it off.

Also with the HRE the empire is already at the start very close to pushing the bloat factor. I have found that holding all the HRE goal and Drag Noch Osten goals with your homelands seems to be safe while anymore provinces seems to start up the negative Vices with your govenors.

Bloat factor? Ahh, too many provinces. I think it was actually 13 provinces on turn one, which is actually one more than the Byz start with, except not such great income, overall. With so many territories to look after, it is a tough job finding the excess troops to strike outward. I've spent much of the game so far simply dealing with incursions onto my homelands and, from observations of what happens to the HRE with the AI in charge, one gets the impression that the sole purpose of them in the game is space for the French, English, Danes and Italians to expand into!

By the way, what exactly is Drag Noch Osten? I've seen it spelt Drang Nach Osten, elsewhere but still don't know what it is.

[EatYerGreens]

Latest developments.

The Anjou crusade was pushed back from Anjou, for the umpteenth time, by an allied French/English attack, earning my unfortunate crusade general 'Eager to Retreat', to go with his 'Good Runner'. He was, nevertheless able to attack again the following year and the English-only garrison was smaller than in previous years, retreating to the keep without fighting. I was under the impression that auto-retrat type victories don't boost the general's command rating but, surprisingly, he earnt his third rank in doing this.

I was able to stop the French getting involved again by sending one of my younger princes into Flanders. One of the Isle de France stacks, which had been helping at Anjou, moved in to greet me and I called off the attack, having only brought enough to deal with the single UM unit on guard. I attacked again the next year, to ensure they stayed where they were and this time brought two Mounted Sergeants with me. They had a catapult and some ballistas, plus loads of archers (the reason I'd brought cav) so I edged my force forward step by step, until the artillery began firing. I lost 4 horsemen in one shot and initiated the charge. Keeping my main fighting troops well back, I charged 200 peasants at the other end of their line and, surprisingly, their archers decided to run for it, instead of skirmishing properly. Both generals were 2-star but my prince prevailed and scored such a high kill ratio that he was credited with 'skilled attacker' after this. There was nothing fancy about the maneuvers and tactics but two units of cav mop up an awful lot of archers (they brought 5 or 6 units) and I reckon it's purely the kills ratio which counts for this V&V.

I contemplated killing prisoners since I wanted to rid them of some of their huge pool of missile troops but they saved me the bother and would not pay ransom anyway. Two Nobles bit the dust.

This was a risky conquest, with points year so close but the idea was to stop them from striding into Friesland again. Confound it all! The English swoop on Friesland in the same year, by sea and all I can do is retreat to the fort. We're all square on homelands lost if I continue to hold Anjou, so this may not matter. I saved at 1174 so there is a chance to win it back on my next turn.

Interestingly, there was no attack on Anjou this year. This is the first time where siege casualties were inflicted instead. An encouraging sign that the crusade, still 900+ strong is close to properly completing its task. Sadly the Teutonic Knights went to waste, with only one man left and about half a unit of Teutonic Sergeants (the general). The only other 'freebie' troops were some mounted crossbows. I've used the temporary increase in cashflow to build things and train more troops, so I expect a maintainance hit when the crusade completes. Some units may have to be disbanded. If I hadn't been excommed, they could have been rapidly deposited into another crusade but I have neiether a marker trained yet, nor any worthwhile target to send it at.

On the other hand... the Danes went rebel when their king died heirless and there's lands just begging to be taken, up north. Ready-built dockyard in Denmark and the Danes' ships all gone - possibly what allowed the English to invade by sea as I think they'd gone to war previously.

However, I need to be quick about it, since the Poles have just re-emerged in Pomerania and are due to attack (their own former troops!) on the next turn. Silesia is a GA point goal for them but I think they'll be a year too late to attack me there in time and still get points. If not there, then Denmark would be a gift to them. Poland itself is out of the question, strongly held by Byz troops.

What prevented the English attacking Anjou this time was an additional headache for them. The Aragonese have captured Aquitaine! They have over 1000 troops in Toulouse but committing those would open the door for me to move in again.

Things are getting interesting and I'm practically spoiled for choice in terms of directions to attack in. The only problem is I feel somewhat overstretched already. I may have to let go of Flanders in order to recover Friesland. Which is worth more - points or cash? Denmark is tempting but if I'd moved one turn too soon, I'd have left Saxony wide open to the newly restored Poles AND possibly another English sea attack. In the south, the Pope won't accept a ceasfire and this ties down troops which were supposed to be guarding Genoa from Sicilian/Byz interference. I only recently found out that the port was the key to unlocking Genoese sailors from here. I'm building a church first and, after that, it's just the bowyer's workshop. They will have to compete with ships for training slots though.

Speaking of which, my first ship has rolled out and didn't even have to move to initiate trade with the Byz in Corsica. One more to trade with Aragon. They are neutral to me but I've been knocking on the door for alliance and/or marriages for a few years, even before they made their latest move.

In the meantime, I reckon I should take Olaf's warning about bloat and try not to go overboard on conquests, sit back, defend what I've got, build infrastructure, ships and train a crusade marker for when the excom ends. My emperor is 57 so I may yet get a window of a decade or so in which to hit the Holy Land.

Oh, I did manage to build the Royal Court in the end, so I'm getting some RK's to make into future governors and/or slice up anyone who dares attack HRE lands. Unfortunately, Swabia was the only place I could construct it, without having to spend an extra 1000 on a Royal Palace as a prerequisite for it. This means that RK's, Swabian Swords and plain old FMAA (with armourer) are all competing for training places until I can afford a secondary swordsmith/armourer as well.

[Geezer57]

By the way, what exactly is Drag Noch Osten? I've seen it spelt Drang Nach Osten, elsewhere but still don't know what it is.

There are historical references for the phrase that predate WWII, but most commonly it refers to Operation Barbarossa - Nazi Germany's attack on the Soviet Union. The phrase roughly translates as "Strike to the East" (also striving or penetration to the East). See the Wikipedia links here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drang_nach_Osten and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

I stumbled upon it as a board wargamer in the 1970's - there was a monster game, with thousands of cardboard counters and a map covering a large dining room table, complete with a huge rulebook, that went by that name.

[OlafTheBrave]

In the game it is the push to the east by the Teutonic Crusaders into Silesia, Pommerania, Prussia and Livonia. Its another reason I sent the crusades after these provinces early before Poland could expand into them. Initially the y are held by some peaseant rebels so a few decent units added to a crusade will conquer them no problem. Livonia I would wait on as it is one of the most rebelious provinces in the game and will require a decent sized garison to hold. Bribing it can sometimes be a worthwile option deppending on its infrastructure and the troops there. If I recall correctly Drang Nach Osten is like the HRE goal in that it scores several times durring the campaign but not in sequential point counts. Remember there is nothing wrong with deciding to pull out of territories in favor of other territories, atleast in my mind. However I am one that likes to maintain a managable moderate sized empire and not some 1/4 or 1/2 the map sprawl. Also EYG I am sure you will play the HRE again it just always comes back nagging at you that you could have done better in those oh so hard yet crucial formative years.

[yesdachi]

EYG – I haven’t been able to play all week and your updates have been just enough to keep me from getting the shakes from withdrawal , thanks . I would concern myself less with bloat than with expanding to natural bottlenecks so you can really focus on infrastructure. I know it’s a ways away but I can’t wait for you to start rolling out the gothic knights ! Wont happen until you can reach some relative peace and establish the trade network.

[Roark]

$0.02:

I was inspired by this thread to create my own Early/Hard/HRE/GA, and it has been a total blast. EYG is spot on - discipline is key. There are so many potential "chinks" in the armour.

I've been at war with Hungary, France, Italy & the Papacy since 1093, and it is TOUGH. Hungary is really giving me curry, and France decided to ALLY with the Emglish from the beginning. Makes things really precarious when ya have enemies on all sides.

Still, I've overcome most of my problems except one...

CRAP HEIR SYNDROME!!!

It is really annoying the hell out of me, and all of my boys have been busily bloodying themselves since age 16... Still, they suck big time.

I also can't figure out how the hell I am going to get a big fat crusade to Palestine before the points get counted... Tried once already, with about 2600 stout Germans, but the desertion rate was phenomenal, despite my crusade leader's astronomical piety. -1 Influence for Ludwig, sadly...


One more afterthought:

Swabians... *drool*

These guys are probably the only thing keeping me alive and afloat. Kingslayers to a man. Charging them into the rear of engaged Royal units is more fun than shooting fish in a barrel.

[lugh]

EYG – I haven’t been able to play all week and your updates have been just enough to keep me from getting the shakes from withdrawal , thanks . I would concern myself less with bloat than with expanding to natural bottlenecks so you can really focus on infrastructure. I know it’s a ways away but I can’t wait for you to start rolling out the gothic knights ! Wont happen until you can reach some relative peace and establish the trade network.

That's the problem with the HRE. If you pursue the GA goals ie, pushing up the Baltic as far as Livonia(?) and taking the Italian peninsula, it's difficult to shorten the borders unless you go on a mad warmongering binge all the way to Turkey. If I remember, 4 provinces is the shortest your western border can be until you get down towards Iberia, 5 on the Eastern but that involves going to war with Russia and Hungary and in Italy you'll always have the Pope waiting to pounce.

[CountMRVHS]

Me too, me too!

Like many others, I've been inspired by this thread to try (again) the HRE. I've tried a couple times in the past on Hard and never had any luck with them, but I figured it deserved another shot.

So I fired up an Early/Expert/GA HRE game.

First of all, I t u r t l e ; always have. My test this game will be to see if it's possible to do that successfully with the HRE (as I said, I've failed at least twice before). Generally, I also follow pretty close to the goals and don't conquer any other land unless I feel I need to.

OK, so the first turn saw my princess and emissary trying to round up some alliances: Emissary goes to France, princess to Poland. The Polish refuse my offer, but the French accept.

Over the next several turns I also net alliances with the English, the Aragonese, the Danes, the People of Novgorod, the Polish (they sent a princess to marry my heir), the Byzantines, and the Hungarians. Oh, and the Spanish. The Pope and the Sicilians, despite my repeated efforts, refuse. The Italians send an emissary but I refuse them, knowing the HRE goal is coming up.

The great thing about allying with the French and English is that you get to pick sides in their war. Well, this time the Aragonese made the first move and took Toulouse while it was still disconnected from the French realm. I kept my alliance with the French but once the war ended the next turn was able to re-ally with the Aragonese.

My first order of business was to build those Watchtowers and then decide on where my troop production was going to be. Following some of the great ideas on this thread I dedicated Burgundy to Spears, Swabia to UMs, and Switzerland to Archers. I stocked up on my western border with decent forces (even threw in a few peasants from Provence) and let the easter border be: the Poles and Hungarians seemed to have other struggles of their own with Rebels, and I wanted to keep my income up around 1000/turn.

I also went straight for the Keep in Swabia so I could have the Swabian Swordsmen quick.

In the past, I've always went straight for the Chapter House in Austria so I could go after the Crusade goals. That never worked. This time, I decided To Hell with the Crusade goals. If it turned out I was in a great position in time, I'd go after them, but that hasn't happened yet. My bigger focus needed to be the homeland, staving off hungry neighbors, and getting ready to get the HRE goal.

Interestingly, the Pope granted me 2 gifts of 1000 fl. when we weren't allied. That was more than welcome, and I was soon over the 10,000 fl. mark. Nice to have a nest egg .

Meanwhile, the French had decided to attack the English; but without Toulouse the war went slower than usual for them. In fact, the English took Flanders and for a moment I thought the French were done for. I remained allied with them until the English offered a princess, and I went for it. As of now, the French hold Anjou, Champagne, Ile de France, Normandy and Brittany; the English hold Flanders and the Aragonese Toulouse and I think Aquitaine. I've decided that if the French gain another province I'll come out of my neutrality and attack them, even though it's not a goal. But they've been pestering me for an alliance for years now, so hopefully they'll stagnate.

By the time the HRE goal came up, I was able to train Swabians (with armor), FMAA, and Mounted Xbows. So far that's going well; grabbed Milan.

Gotta run to work; more later perhaps

CountMRVHS

[EatYerGreens]

I was just popping in to post another quick progress report but I just wanted to say that I'm knocked out by how my efforts have inpired others to have a go (or another go!) at HRE and that your having a blast too.

Lots of new posts on this thread, so I'll address those first. As soon as I've processed the latest screenies, I'll do another update.

In the meantime, it's interesting just how varied the game can be, between different players. I have the Byz on my Eastern front and the Huns got wiped out without ever troubling me, whilst Roark has been at war with Hungary. I have also faced an Anglo-French alliance but the Aragonese haven't had the same success as in Count's game.

It would be nice to also have Count's nest egg but maybe I have had it, only I spent it.

[EatYerGreens]

Thanks to Geezer57 for those links. I'll check those out later.

Only a couple of turns after I posted that, it turned up in the game (HRE goal magically reappeared too) but it's only listing Prussia and Livonia as targets. I wonder if it varies from game to game?

EDIT: Correction, Silesia is on the list too but I already have it!

Anyway, it's an odd selection because, if you absolutely must have a contiguous empire, the player will need to take Lithuania as well. That's easier said than done since, IIRC, Lithuania cuts well inland and has a lot of borders from which it can be attacked.

Crusade would seem the logical way to take it, since you can move through other factions' holdings to reach it without necessarily having to conquer or hold onto all the provinces en route to there. With a big enough force, it can then be held as an outpost province for as long as it takes to get the points. Interestingly, in my game, the first English crusade was to Livonia, as if it was making conscious efforts to prevent the player achieving certain goals. At the time, I had no idea of the connection but it makes sense now. I had a bishop in place and managed to witness them failing to take their target.

If I recall correctly Drang Nach Osten is like the HRE goal in that it scores several times during the campaign but not in sequential point counts. Remember there is nothing wrong with deciding to pull out of territories in favor of other territories, atleast in my mind.

Yep, I was paying attention this time and notw how the HRE and DNO point count dates differ from the rest, with the latter not even starting until 1205 or 1206. At least they give you some advance warning to enable preparations.

Also EYG I am sure you will play the HRE again it just always comes back nagging at you that you could have done better in those oh so hard yet crucial formative years.

Yes, I'm only now starting to produce extra RK units. After all those years struggling with too few generals with any stars - and more than a few defeats as a consequence - I now find that the RKs solve the problem. The first two to roll out were a 2* and a 1*. Not utterly knockout ranks, admittedly but, psychologically, it would have helped calm things down in the nail-biting stage and only a little work would have had them gaining rank for a solid valour boost all round.

In some ways, all the losing of territory and winning it back again is what I feel the game should be all about - ebb and flow of the various empires until one prevails after many years of struggle. Not just a complete steamrollering of the world by armies that were always bigger, or better quality than their opponents.

[EatYerGreens]

EYG – I haven’t been able to play all week and your updates have been just enough to keep me from getting the shakes from withdrawal , thanks .

No problem. I would never have guessed that 'secondhand campaigning' would be enough to satisfy those inevitable cravings but I ought to know better, since contemplating all the various possibilities absorbs enormous amounts of my own time as it is. That's where a lot of the enjoyment comes from, I think. I have to admit to being something of a plodder and, what with all the frequent strategic battles to look after, I'm managing only about 3 turns per game session - give or take breaks to watch something on TV and give my mind a rest!

I would concern myself less with bloat than with expanding to natural bottlenecks so you can really focus on infrastructure.

Yes, the Pyrenees are a logical place to stop, in the west but it will be a few years yet before I reach that far. The English retook Aquitaine from the Aragonese and have close to three stacks with which to look after that and Toulouse. Attempting to take the pair of them would only expose me to attacks from both north (France) and south (Spain/Aragon). Hanging back in Provence means I can rely on a river defence against the English and then concentrate on the borders with the French. (I'll save the details for the next progress report).

I know it’s a ways away but I can’t wait for you to start rolling out the gothic knights ! Wont happen until you can reach some relative peace and establish the trade network.

I see the bonussed versions of these are from Saxony and the GFKs in Brandenburg but these are both relatively undeveloped at the moment - just Fort, Motte & Bailey, so the development path is both long and twofold. I'm wondering if I should save that for the distant future and concentrate on Swabia, where I'm already up to castle level? Given that I shouldn't require huge amounts of these knights and that even the costs of a citadel are well beyond the current treasury level, it would make sense to get one place at least building them, which is already halfway there, rather than fuss about a bonus province where the castle level is already 20 years behind. Not to mention that Saxony hasn't even started a town watch yet, let alone basic troop facilities.

The side benefit is that advanced armourer, master horse breeder etc is required for knights, so my Swabians and Mounted Sergeants (the latter coming, unarmoured, from Bavaria at present) will benefit during the period while development is in progress.

What generally happens for me is that I never have the funds available to simply go for it and meet all the build requirements for advanced units one right after another. I build things as and when they can be afforded, which means frequent gaps where no building occurs and usually with intermediate goals in mind. For instance, once Saxony gets its keep, I will detour the development path for a few years, to give it a port and shipbuilder, so that the long years of castle/citadel construction can be spent constructively on getting ships into the Baltic, earning the cash for the expensive builds and guarding my coast from further English seaborne invasions at the same time. Any ability to make high-tech units is arrived at by serendipity as much as anything else. I see a building on the list which can give me a useful new unit type, so I build it. If it gets me one step closer to the bonus unit, then all the better.

Obviously, I do look at the tech tree from time to time and I will keep the long-term construction goals in mind but I won't sacrifice other things I decide I need HERE, NOW, purely so as to afford the high-tech path somewhere else, where it might be too far away to make a difference at the trouble spot - eg the need to be able to train extra troops at short notice, in a province which an enemy troop movement has suddenly placed under threat, or quickly recoup losses after a defence was successful but with significant casualties.

Actually, that the old, over-cautious policy and perhaps it was frittering away money on lots of small builds (archer/spearmaker nearly everywhere). Better use of the 'hub defence' system, where you either abandon completely or retreat to the fort then gather troops and lift the siege with full strength would allow development to be more concentrated. Fewer training centres overall but better quality all round.

[EatYerGreens]

That's the problem with the HRE. If you pursue the GA goals ie, pushing up the Baltic as far as Livonia(?) and taking the Italian peninsula, it's difficult to shorten the borders unless you go on a mad warmongering binge all the way to Turkey. If I remember, 4 provinces is the shortest your western border can be until you get down towards Iberia, 5 on the Eastern but that involves going to war with Russia and Hungary and in Italy you'll always have the Pope waiting to pounce.

Indeed so. The Pope has pounced only the once so far and won't accept a ceasefire. I picked up from some other thread that factions can be on their last province and still not accept ceasfire, with the speculation being that as long as any of their starting provinces are in enemy hands (not necessarily all in yours) it's kind of 'hard coded' that they will refuse all offers of ceasefire. Sounds silly at first but hope springs eternal for the AI and they behave as if they expect to be able to regain lost lands at all times, however hopeless the odds are, but this can't be done unless hostilities are kept ongoing.

Four provinces on the western front sounds right but don't forget that pushing into Flanders also brings Wessex into play - unless you're using a mod which removes the land bridge. (I was contemplating trying all factions in the default form of the game first but suspect that impatience to get rid of the land bridges will have me making the switch sooner rather than later).

On my eastern border, the Poles re-emerged and took Pomerania, the Byz have Poland (nice long border), Hungary, Serbia and Venice, so that's 4 provinces facing me but make it 5 if you count Denmark. It's now rebel so it doesn't really count as a potential source of attack though. My actual border is Saxony, Brandenburg, Silesia, Bohemia, Austria, so that's 5 needing to be defended.

The Byz also have Venice, which could be counted as eastern border but I've kept it separate because it can strike at three of my provinces - Tyrolia, Milan and Tuscany - which I prefer to regard as 'southern front'. However, their presence has served to keep the larger Papal stack pinned in Papal States. His Rome stack is beginning to grow, albeit slowly. I can outnumber him when I need to but a few more years and it will require a proper battle to push him out if he visits again. So he's already pinning down a garrison of my own, which was meant to be shuttling about between Milan/Tyrolia to keep the Byz at bay. I need to keep it in Tuscany if I have any hopes of getting a keep/second port/shipbuilder in place down there without interruptions and repeated expenditures in the build process.

It's the same story along all the borders. I need more keeps in place for the kind of training facilities I need, since the existing ones are fully occupied. Whilst I can actually afford these at the moment, the question is whether it is safe to commit to the build and will I remain unattacked for long enough to get them finished? The timing of the attacks on Saxony - two attempts at fort construction interrupted - were such that I wondered if the AI can somehow detect that you've started a fresh build.

To refer back to the original thread title, the HRE is indeed a headache. With many other factions, you always have provinces which are safely tucked away in places others can't get to, so you can build those up and get tougher troops with which to make the border zones safe from attacks and be sure of completing similar improvements there without the interruptions.

I think only the Poles and Hungarians have comparable 'sandwiched' starting positions where this problem would also occur but they have fewer provinces to be looked after until they've expanded somewhat. This makes the choices of what to develop and where simpler, initially. I'll have to try them sometime to see what their economic position is like.

[EatYerGreens]

Still, I've overcome most of my problems except one...

CRAP HEIR SYNDROME!!!

It is really annoying the hell out of me, and all of my boys have been busily bloodying themselves since age 16... Still, they suck big time.

Mine were a mixed bag. There's a 1* younger brother, a pair of 2*, a pair of 3* and the latest 16-year old came out at 4*. The emperor came to the throne at 3* but was only 17 then, which has given him plenty of time to get involved in occasional battles and siege-lifts, so he earned his way up to 4* and that might explain the progressive improvement in heirs. He has 6 sons and his "virility is legendary" as the caption puts it but I can't get a single one of them married off now, due to who I'm at war with and who they're allied to. I suppose the HRE do have a get-out in that they can elect their best general if heirlessness rears its head.

Do the HRE ever do that thing whereby the Emperor marries the daughter of a noble if he is unable to get a princess?

I also can't figure out how the hell I am going to get a big fat crusade to Palestine before the points get counted... Tried once already, with about 2600 stout Germans, but the desertion rate was phenomenal, despite my crusade leader's astronomical piety. -1 Influence for Ludwig, sadly...

Having seen an overland English crusade meet resistance from the Byz, who have been pushed westwards by the Turks' relentless expansion, failing far short of its target as a result, I see my only hope of meeting this resting on ability to build enough ships in the 30 years or so I have remaining and not having the Sicilians do their usual naval war antics.

It would be fun to use maybe just three ships and 'island hop' my way to the destination but I'm not sure wheter the game will permit such indirect routing. Chapter house is in Franconia and it might refuse to let me track south (port in Genoa) as this is 'further away', in terms of land moves, from Palestine. It can't see ship routes as being shorter and legitimate until they exist, I suppose.

Stopping in Malta (with Sicilian permission, if I can get it) and seeing if I can absorb some Templars whilst the ships reposition, would be rather fun. At last check, the Eggy's had pushed west as far as Tunisia so, maybe, break in through the back door, into a lightly guarded Cyrenacia and hope the path to Palestine is made easy because their strength is too far north, keeping the Turks back.

I'm convinced someone, somewhere has pulled off the Palestine crusade in the time available so it's definitely do-able. I'm sure dgfred posted something about having to let yourself be sieged into the castle before the points registered. In any case, the European conflict has kept me preoccupied for so long that funds and facilites are limiting. I might have to launch the crusade then leave it sat in Franconia for a few years, just packing in unit after unit from all neighbouring provinces to get the numbers up (no maint costs woot, woot) before sending it on its merry way.

The big headache is, of course, the current excom status. Emperor is 58 and the Pope slightly younger, so the 30-year window may yet be enough to make it happen.

I was slightly underwhelmed by the performance of my first unit of Swabians, only 58 kills with 40+ losses but maybe I'd given them a tough task. Couldn't see what they were fighting as it was in woods. Units raised since then have never been in the right place to participate in any proper battles yet but their deterrent value seems to be good.

[bretwalda]

Sorry for the diversion: in my HRE game I don't seem to be getting Swabian Swordsmen: what are the building requirements - I can't find them anywhere...? I know that they are an early only unit.

[OlafTheBrave]

Ships are the best way to successfully launch crusades. If you cant make it all the way to Pallestine atleast go for somewher along the African coast and Iwould recomend a tag along army if at all possible. The points for crusades do not register until you are under siege in that province. That is another reason for having the tag along army is to secure the province next to the crusade goal so you can do the manipulation neccessary to gain the points.

With regard to keeps in border provinces, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate that whole reaction force deffense stratagey, if nothing else atleast for the provine you are building up. I would still recomend slapping the Pope out of Rome. If you dont leave him in the Papal States crush him and withdraw from the papal states but keep an adaquate garrison in Rome to deal with his re-emergence. Doing this will give you some time to develop that garrison and he will then be holed up in the Papal States with some expensive troops and litte or no infastructre. Supposedly you can seige him in the Papal States and withdraw on the last year and force a cease fire but I have never been so fortunate as he seems to get his fragile little but killed before the seige.

I havent played Hungry but Poland is fun. Its sort of like a mini-HRE, while you are bordered to the east by rebels once stirred up they tend to gang up on you. Poland also has some interesting GA goal as far as provinces to take especially if things fall just right in the campaign and for some reason you seem like even more of a crusade super highway than the HRE.

[lugh]

Indeed so. The Pope has pounced only the once so far and won't accept a ceasefire. I picked up from some other thread that factions can be on their last province and still not accept ceasfire, with the speculation being that as long as any of their starting provinces are in enemy hands (not necessarily all in yours) it's kind of 'hard coded' that they will refuse all offers of ceasefire. Sounds silly at first but hope springs eternal for the AI and they behave as if they expect to be able to regain lost lands at all times, however hopeless the odds are, but this can't be done unless hostilities are kept ongoing.

Assasinate him. Then his succesor. After that the new pope should be amenable to a ceasefire! It was working for me before my computer went caput.

It would be fun to use maybe just three ships and 'island hop' my way to the destination but I'm not sure wheter the game will permit such indirect routing. Chapter house is in Franconia and it might refuse to let me track south (port in Genoa) as this is 'further away', in terms of land moves, from Palestine. It can't see ship routes as being shorter and legitimate until they exist, I suppose.

This is one of my biggest peeves. The routes the Crusaders actually took were nuts, they backtracked, island-hopped etc etc. The pathfinding for the AI is brutal and it's stupid that the player is locked into it aswell.

I'm convinced someone, somewhere has pulled off the Palestine crusade in the time available so it's definitely do-able.

How do you mean by this?

@bretwalda I can't remember if they're in vanilla VI, but it's a castle level, with Master swordsmith IIRC

[mfberg]

Swordsmith Workshop + Swabia are required to build.
(Fort, Town Watch, Spear/Archer, Keep, Swordsmith, Castle, Swordsmith Workshop ~38 years from nothing, 32 years from HRE start, available only in early)

mfberg

[yesdachi]

I see the bonussed versions of these are from Saxony and the GFKs in Brandenburg but these are both relatively undeveloped at the moment...

For me too, it has been difficult to develop much of anything in my game but hopefully I will be able to get a few turns in tonight. I just know my armies are waiting to face off with the Turks !

[dgfred]

@EYG- it was me who posted about the siege for crusade point deal .

It is not so hard to do in the time period, but I was playing on 'normal'
difficulty . In that game I sent consecutive crusades to
Antioch, Tripoli and then Palestine. The first is by far the hardest due to the
fact that you have to have enough troops to withdraw some to the castle,
and have enough to recapture the province. The others will be easier since
you will have strong forces nearby already. Another thing that might be
important is that all my crusades went by sea, I had ships in almost every
sea lane. I usually use over-land crusades only to weaken my neighbors (aka
Hungary or Italy) to knock down a point rival nation (aka Byzantines). I find
the AI totally unprepared in most cases to sea invasions, and use them to
throw the AI off balance . I try to avoid X-comm at all cost, using the
attack two faction trick to get what I want. In games as the HRE when I did
get X-comm my loyalty fell drastically and I also had several rebellions if I did
not pay close attention- a true Holy Roman Headache!

[Deus Ex]

Is the "points for crusades do not register until you are under siege in that province" BUG only for HRE?

In my current game (Sicily/Hard/Early) I have successfully launched three of my four GA crusades, and I received points for each when I took over the province - no need to garrison or anything.

Just wondering...

MTW-VI 2.01 un-modded

DE

[OlafTheBrave]

Are you certain you recieved the points Deus Ex? The partchemnt showing the points scored only occurs once you are sieged. This is true of all the crusade factions not just the HRE. This is deffinitly the case in MTW 1.1 and Ido not think it was fixed in VI or its patches because if I am not mistaken this bug has only recently been discovered.

[EatYerGreens]

Assasinate him. Then his succesor. After that the new pope should be amenable to a ceasefire! It was working for me before my computer went caput.

I have one assassin up to v3 but old popey has BF's in Rome, making this something of a one-shot deal and he's considered more valuable as the emperor's bodyguard just now. I have a second assassin up to v1 but there's not a hope of him getting through BF's at all. The tricky part is that the tavern went into Switzerland - because it could - but steady troop losses have kept it busy building replacements, leaving few opportunities for spamming killers. I have one castle and three keeps but will need another keep if I want a dedicated agent-producer.

The castle squeezed out an inquisitor a while ago and news of the Cathars got me producing a second but Swabia is already competing between Swabian swords, FMAA and now RK's on top. Now I learn that Swabian's are early-only, I consider that two training slots wasted. Inquie #1 declared his first three targets innocent, still has no stars and burns 1500 Genoans for me in the same turn that he moved there. Gah!


Crusade Routes:

This is one of my biggest peeves. The routes the Crusaders actually took were nuts, they backtracked, island-hopped etc etc. The pathfinding for the AI is brutal and it's stupid that the player is locked into it aswell.

In some parts of the readable files, the Province list is alphabetic but I thought I saw one where the list is kind of geographic - rows west to east then progressively southward, from the top edge. Imagine it set out on a spreadsheet. Wherever the origin and destination are, the allowable path is a mix of diagonals and straights but, having reduced the number of rows or columns between one and the other by making a move, you can't increase it again in a subsequent move.

So, if your target is in the east, at no time can you make a move which the game regards as being in a 'column' which is to the west, even if it doesn't appear to be obviously so, geographically speaking. If the target is generally south of your start point, at no time will it allow you to move north.

The exception is where ships reduce the number of moves, of course. Still, I wonder if the game can cope with a required move to the north, eg. from Franconia to Saxony to reach a port there and a ship chain through a dozen or so sea zones to the holy land? (Thinking about that, it's probably more sea zones than provinces in the overland route!!!)

I'm convinced someone, somewhere has pulled off the Palestine crusade in the time available so it's definitely do-able.

How do you mean by this?

I mean the crusade goals (all of them) must be achieved by 1205 in order to score any points for them.

Perhaps I have an exaggerated sense of there not being enough time to get it done because I'm up to the late 1170's and only have two ships in the med, so far. Still plenty of time, of course but the margin is tighter than I'd like. Constant conflict on the European fronts has used up men and money, so my economy isn't as developed as it might be (farm improvements) and the sensation of having 2-3000 troops 'to spare' for crusading just isn't there.

[EatYerGreens]

Are you certain you recieved the points Deus Ex? The partchemnt showing the points scored only occurs once you are sieged. This is true of all the crusade factions not just the HRE. This is deffinitly the case in MTW 1.1 and Ido not think it was fixed in VI or its patches because if I am not mistaken this bug has only recently been discovered.

Seems the proverbial mileage is varying.

Perhaps we should compare notes on versions.

There's no good reason why an edition manufactured in EU should be materially different (in software behaviour) from the the made in USA editions, or anywhere else, other than the US version perhaps releasing several weeks ahead of any other country, giving time for a bug to be discovered and fixed before manufacturing kicked off elsewhere. Nevertheless, it may be useful to state where your copy was made, just in case.

Mine is MTW:VI v2.01 plus "age 56 king-death" fix, no other mods, made in EU.

I will report on my experience of the points issue as and when I'm able to complete the GA goal.