Holy Roman Headache!

[ajaxfetish]

Wow, this thread is getting huge!! EYG, you are the newest org celebrity. It's a blast reading your latest HRE exploits especially with every juicy detail included. In spite of some added stability it sounds like things haven't gotten any less interesting the last few years. A few thoughts:

Definitely take the opportunity to improve some of your farms (especially in safe interior provinces with decent base farming values) as this is your main source of income as the HRE and the investment will really start to pay off. You have enough provinces that the farming income can really start to add up once you get the farms up a ways.

If you can spare the troops I'd agree that shutting the Pope down (but not finishing him off) could help you feel much more secure on your southern border and possibly provide you with some very nice infrastructure in Rome.

Personally I think Flanders is more valuable than the homeland points from Friesland, especially since money has been one of your biggest setbacks and Flanders is one of the richest provinces in the entire game.

I have no good advice for crusades. When I'm fighting to survive I tend to relegate those to a lower priority. For me, crusading only happens when I'm in a secure position with troops and money to spare. So good luck in the levant.

Gothic knights aren't available till late (about 1350 or so IIRC), so you have plenty of time to tech up to them.

Keep an eye on the Byzantines. I don't trust them.

So here's wishing you the best of fortune and hoping for further updates!

[Roark]

EYG is easily the most prolific writer in the MTW Org.

...and I have to say, this German campaign is the most complex and fun that I have ever experienced, and I'm a little ashamed that I dissed the HRE so much in the past.

I have been (involuntarily) at war with 3-4 factions since day one, with ceasefires being signed and cancelled like a game of musical chairs.

My relationship with the Papacy has been fraught with intrigue, and Hungary and France have been worthy adversaries (although France benefited enormously from an alliance with England).

Here's my current situation, which is ultra-precarious:

1. A green emperor of 3 influence who has just stepped into some big boots. The generals don't think much of him, and the HRE is one step away from civil war.
2. All of mainland France is under siege, with the English vacillating as to whether they should stick their necks out to save their allies. As soon as the French provinces fall, I will gain extra Influence, BUT....
3. I have a ragged crusader army of 500 in Lesser Armenia, staring down an army of 1200 Egyptian n00bs in the target province of Antioch. The desertion rate means that I cannot afford to wait. I have to try and take it next turn.

So, if I lose the Crusade, my well-established empire will be plunged into civil war. This will basically be an invitation for the Hungarians to break the frontier that I have established across Austria and Croatia.

[EatYerGreens]

Again, I've spent so much time posting today that the campaign didn't get a look in, but here's the stuff from the most recent session. Not as much detail as usual as it's late and I'm worn out!

Prince Conrad backtracked from Flanders, raised the siege in Friesland and trounced the English. An extra unit of theirs was seen to move in by sea but it was too little, too late. This battle was in 1175 itself, so I had the satisfaction of seeing this, for the first time...



Okay, you've probably all seen it before but did it say "13 points" on the bottom? (The thread goes wonky if I post images full size, so I shrink them to 75% at photobucket and the loss of quality makes the writing hard to make out on that one. I could use clickable links instead and re-upload the images to restore full quality).


A mere 100 spears and 100 peasants, left behind in Flanders, were not troubled by any attack, in spite of the trapped garrison easily having more men. After siege losses were counted, the forces were about equal but the return of Conrad's men, the following year, was enough to see the castle fall, with considerable pillage loot. Unfortunately, the port was amongst the items destroyed and, even with an Acumen 4 governor, income is only 400 and something, not the 1000+ the French were previously getting. I suspect the farms may have degraded, currently back at 20%.

In the meantime - and I can't be certain if memory serves - it may also be the first time I've seen this...



Good to see it finally complete its task, after all that drama and the foolishness of facing up to an army nearly 4 times its size, routing before doing even slight damage and losing it's most powerful troops. So, yet more pillage to swell the coffers and luckily the 80% farms are captured undamaged.

The maintainance hit wasn't as bad as expected, cashflow stil in the 750 range. The fun was not to last, however. The French king saw his chance and burst forth from Brittany. I had dangled the bait of a small garrison for at least one year but the timing was such that the former crusaders were back in the province that year. Unfornunately, there is no 'both' choice when it comes to abandon province or retreat to stronghold. I certainly didn't want a full 420 troops in the keep but, again, no facility to pick how many men or one unit type over another. The numbers and troop mix were in their favour so I simply had to pull out. Cashflow now down to ~250, as I've been busy raising troops to defend the east in the meantime.

In various ways, I am content to let the French keep Anjou.
1) Large bulges on a front are generally a bad thing and beg to be attacked.
2) It's an English homeland and they may well fight to get it back, splitting the alliance between them which was so troublesome to me.
3) It allows the French to connect up with Isle de France, redistribute troops and maybe come after me again but I can then get the chance to destroy them in detail, instead of having to finish off a two-stack army in Brittany.
4) A risky option but I could let them expand and drive the English off the mainland whilst I conserve my men for crusading. When that's all done, my home troops should be advanced enough to push them into a corner once again.
5) Peace with France, if achieved, gives me another trade parter, close to home.
6) Disconnection from any border with England (eg temporary loss of Flanders) ends that war and I get another trade opportunity.
7) I now have an 'excess' stack. This can go into the next crusade or simply move to guard Milan, freeing up the Tuscany stack to attack the Pope right away. I don't know how it will pan out if he dies in battle but a siege in Rome is still ongoing when the new Pope gets elected - instant re-excom?

After much thought, I decided not to risk spending the recent booty on an extra keep just yet, using it instead on 40% farms in Provence - longggg overdue - with another farm upgrade to follow on my next turn after the latest save. Money first, upgrades later.

Another 1000 is going on another crusade marker, so as to be ready for imminent Papal doom, or the death of my Emperor, whichever comes first. He has skilled attacker, for 5 stars on attack, so maybe I should arrange a face-off?

Saxony is a full stack and I've pumped troops into Brandenburg and Silesia so they're near-full as well and a half stack for a Bohemia-Austria 'shuttle'. All on account the Byz and re-emerged Poles. I was pleased to get an alliance with the Poles sorted out just as they'd completed their siege of the rebels. Judging by their remaining troop numbers and income, they'll be broke if they don't make another move soon, so I'm taking no chances and hope they head east.

Kings have been dying of illnesses at an alarming rate. I swear I saw two Byzantine emperors pass on in consecutive years. French and Spanish kings have gone, but no word on any of the Muslim leaders for more than a generation. Maybe border contact is required for the news to travel? (My agents aren't in the right places at the moment.

Last of all, a little aspirin for the HRE's headache. The Sicilian king dies off without heirs and his annoying little fleet is vapourised. With the Byz suitably allied, the sea route to the east should be trouble-free. A second ship is out, I'm trading with Aragon and a third is about to start construction. Things are looking up!

Completion of the crusade and other recent conquests has pushed Herrmann II's influence up from an opening 4 to a highly respectable 8. His youngest son has just come of age and starts with 4 stars. His dad had to earn his 4th and seems to have passed on his hard-won knowledge.

A second assassin has been unleashed, gaining a star in his first move, picking off a nosey English Emissary in Burgundy. I lost my second Bishop in Normandy and I think he was making an approach for a ceasefire at the time, so I feel the retaliation was entirely justified.

I have two Inquisitors now. The first of these did a short tour of other faction lands, released three targets in a row as innocent, gaining no stars. He spent a few years trying to boost zeal in Castile, to little effect. There is intense military activity in Spain and the Almohads must have smashed up their Chapter House some time ago - no whisper of Crusades by the Spaniards, to date. I recalled him and got a second trained when the Cathars raised their ugly heads. Toulouse, Provence, Genoa, Milan, Franconia and Bavaria are all affected. #2 takes care of the northern areas while #1 is reported 'out of control' in the same turn as when I moved him into Genoa and 1500 are burned after I leave him in place, the year after. Whoops!

There's no shortage of things to keep the HRE player occupied, then. I don't think any other faction gets as many potential sources of points as they do, so it's hard to imagine just how one can fall behind. (For the record, I now have a four point lead, over the Byz in second place but the Turks fast on their heels).

Then again, there are simply too many tasks to achieve everything simultaneously, short of treating it like a conquest game and blitzing everywhere in the first couple of decades, if that's even feasible. Personally, I've achieved parts of certain goals before I knew they were goals - disposing of the Italians, for instance, was something I did as advice suggested it was a prudent move. I even acted slightly late and their accumulated forces made it expensive in terms of money and casualties. Nevertheless, it got me 3 points from the HRE goal but that didn't appear until the provinces involved were already secure.

Latest state of play. (map)

[EatYerGreens]

Well past bedtime but I couldn't resist holding back this one any longer.

It's funny how small little events, very early on can swing things for one player but won't happen in quite the same way in someone else's game.

Back in 1094, I lost Lorraine after a battle with the French and there was small revolt. 60 archers, 100 Feudal Sergeants, before their time and 40 Teutonic Segeants, a unit I'd not encountered before. As I said before, any cav was good Cav. The retake was straightforward but they came back with greater numbers. Lorraine was lost again and French-held for a number of years. The horsemen didn't go into action until 30 years later, against the Italians in Provence and defending a recaptured Lorraine. Then another gap of 20 years before they helped recover Saxony from the English, on three occasions and another 20 years before relieving Friesland and a defence of Flanders.

They kept cropping up on my battle screenshots, so I compiled a war record for them, which speaks for itself. I think they're worth more than their weight in gold - they've certainly earned me plenty. Outside of crusades, it appears they're not even buildable...

Totals to date
Battles: 8
K: 0+99+46+5+57+0+0+33 =240
C: 2+111+175+2+58+33+0+84 =465
L: 0+18+3+3+7+0+0+0 =31, 9 remaining
V: 0+2+1+0+1+0+0+0 =4 (not counting general's boost)

[OlafTheBrave]

That is exactly why I said I was glad I spent the money on the Royal Estate in Swabia. Since I dont have VI Swabians are of no concern. However having some strong mele calvalry that psossibly has a star or two can be absolutly lovely in thsoe crucial early years. Also it is nice having a general with some moral when you are faciing those French Hordes of Archers not to mention something to actually chase them off the field with.

[CountMRVHS]

Just finished a 9-turn gaming session that felt like 50...

My game definitely turned the "bad" corner, around 1130. That was roughly the time the HRE goal came up: before that, I was pleasantly allied with everyone around me (except the Italians), and not at war with anyone. As I'm turtling, I didn't even see a single battle until I attacked Milan.

I mentioned earlier that I decided in this game to totally forget about the Crusade goals. Too much hassle for too little gain. It should be theoretically possible to grab one of the Holy Land provinces before time's up, and I know in the past I've succeeded at getting Antioch & Edessa; but I wanted to focus this time on the main part of the empire, which is where everything always fell apart anyway.

So, as soon as I attacked the Italians the Eastern front began to look very scary: the Polish and Hungarians dropped their alliances with me. Austria is my only Eastern troop-producing province; I spent most of my energy in the West, which is where I've always gotten slapped in the past. Nonetheless, I was able to hold Milan & take Tuscany before the Hungarians made their attack on Bohemia.

One thing I'm realizing about the HRE (well, any faction really) is that, when things are desperate, you need to know when to retreat. I'm a slow, conservative player but when I'm in a battle I almost never withdraw my general or my troops -- nope, keep 'em in there til the bitter end. In the same way I almost never abandon a province when I can command the battle and take out a few of their guys. But sometimes you need to fall back and consolidate.

My king during this crisis was a 3-influence, 6-piety, 0-everything else inbred but apparently very inspiring (+5 morale overall) guy. I also happened to have, in Austria, leading a full stack of UMs, Spears, Archers, Slav Warriors & Javs, a 4-star prince: my best leader. So when the Hungarians attacked Bohemia, I could have moved north with Prince Rudolph and his stack and taken it back. Instead, I decided to gamble. A unit of spearmen was still in the keep in Bohemia and I'd built stone walls (always remember to build stone walls on your keep!), so it would probably hold for a bit. But the Hungarian king was in Hungary next door... so Rudolph moves east and in the meantime I start to gather some forces from the west side of my empire over to be ready to attack Bohemia in a few turns.

Well, Austria to Hungary is a 2-bridge battle. They brought a bunch of Szekely and Jobbagy led by a 4-star prince (their king had moved to Bohemia, the jerk) and about 30 minutes later, after grinding most of my army away against their forces, I pulled off a Pyrrhic victory, losing 2/3 of Rudolph's stack.

The problem now was there was a force still in the keep in Hungary, and plenty of forces nearby to counterattack next turn. I could withdraw my men back to Austria.... OR, strike SW to Croatia with Rudolph and hope to trash that province.

No such luck. Although I won that battle too, a remnant retreated to the fort.

Meanwhile I had counterattacked with my King into Bohemia and kicked the Hungarians out; they counterattacked in force into Hungary (which I had vacated), and then attacked Austria. A branch from this force attacked Bohemia again, and whenthe battle screen came up I saw it was the Hungarian king (4-stars) with a single unit of HAs against my 0-star king, 2 spearmen, and 1 UM. I went for it and managed to kill the king ... not that it mattered in the long run. Somewhere about this time my elderly king was excommunicated, I had to quickly drop taxes in some northern provinces to prevent rebellion, and I made a fatal decision with Prince Rudolph. Rather than move him safely from Croatia (which was under siege) to Austria (which the Hungarians had under siege), he assaulted the fort in Croatia, hoping the Hungarians wouldn't counterattack. Well, they did. And the Italians, their allies, came along for the ride. Bye bye Rudolph.

Since my emperor was excommed, I figured what the hell; let's go for Rome! The Pope was sitting there with a scant force of UMs and Spears and withdrew without a fight, leaving only Naples to complete my HRE goal and more than 20 years to get it. By this time Naples is held by the Sicilians, who just offered an alliance which I took gladly.

On my last turn this evening I sent the Emperor to Austria to finally get rid of the Hungarians there before the Keep fell. He succeeded and that's where things stand now: few allies, my cash is draining (around 8000 in the bank and only 100 or so income per turn), and an active war in the south and the east. The only good news is that the current emperor is old, so the excommunication will die with him; and Prince Otto just came of age with 3 stars, 3 quills of acumen, and Irritable plus Secret Pride virtues.

Hopefully I can keep this going until the High period... but it's 1139 now, and this is usually the time when things fall apart with my HRE campaigns. Give me a Welsh game any day! I must admit, though, that this has been quite fun (mostly due to the excellent posts here) and I'm glad I went back to it.

Ugh... bedtime..

CountMRVHS

[lugh]

I mean the crusade goals (all of them) must be achieved by 1205 in order to score any points for them.

Perhaps I have an exaggerated sense of there not being enough time to get it done because I'm up to the late 1170's and only have two ships in the med, so far. Still plenty of time, of course but the margin is tighter than I'd like. Constant conflict on the European fronts has used up men and money, so my economy isn't as developed as it might be (farm improvements) and the sensation of having 2-3000 troops 'to spare' for crusading just isn't there.

I do them as a matter of course..... I have 5 campaigns ongoing (I get bored once my Empire is getting comfortable) and in all the Catholic ones (France, Spain, HRE and Sicily) I made a point of capturing the Holy Lands to get the GA points, because I don't like rampaging across the globe indiscriminately. In French GA, you need Tripoli by at least 1150 because another GA goal is the Krak de Chevalier, or in other words, having a Citadel in Tripoli. I think I'm past 1205 in all those games but once my computer is back I'll dig through the savegame folder for some screenshots.

I have one assassin up to v3 but old popey has BF's in Rome, making this something of a one-shot deal and he's considered more valuable as the emperor's bodyguard just now.

IIRC, I was lucky enough to capture a 2* drinking den in Naples when I reforged the HRE GA goal. sat a few of them in Venice and they knocked off dignitaries for a decde or so before moving onto troublesome neighbouring generals and then my 6* was eventually perma-stationed in the Papal States!

For the record I don't remember having any problems with Crusade GA goals. To the best of my memory the GA goal completed banner always popped up after the "your brave crusaders .... church sanctioned target" banner.

[dgfred]

The crusade goal completed banner DOES pop up when you capture the
province, but NO points are awarded unless you are retreated to the
castle . I have the basic game, no patches, no mods
so this might be the difference but I have noted this 'bug' every time.

In my HRE games I always get Denmark, Sweden, and Flanders to
have a solid economic base while in the very early game. I like to keep my
east wall solid, my south wall even with the Italians, and expand to the north
and west. I really like to also get Toulouse and the French capital province
to secure a nice tidy empire, but they are not a priority.

Keep the great post and pics coming you guys, this is really enjoyable.

[Roark]

Similar to CountMRVHS, my campaign is starting to look shaky as I cross the 1130AD threshold.

Eastern Front - I thought the Hungarians would tire of having their young men butchered by my hand, but for some reason, they are even more bloodthirsty than before. They appear in greater numbers than ever, and I need to somehow take Hungary before they develop a metalsmith. An alliance has been formed between Hungary and Poland, and the normally-placid Poles have sent emissaries to inspect my defences. They are massing at the Austrian border. I don't think I can hold them back if they attack in concert with each other.

Western Front - I have purged the French from the mainland at a moderate cost to my own armies, but the English (who have been peacefully building their infrastructure and economy) have now decided to attack in force. They have FMAAs, Royals, Cats, and hordes of spear units. I suspect the English King is very rich and can last longer than me in this conflict. I have to conquer quickly and decisively

Northern Front - My repeated attempts to forge an alliance with Olaf of the Danes have failed. I suspect that the bridge at Saxony is the only thing keeping him from invading over land, but his longboats have begun to appear in the Northern waters and made assaults on my burgeoning Hansean alliance.

Southern Front - The Papacy are at war with me in earnest and seem intent on taking Venice.

I'm running out of money, and my empire still suffers from crap heir syndrome. I don't even know why the HRE bother having elections. They apparently always pick the guy who has the worst money management skills.

Still having lots of fun, but there are so many factors which might topple my empire in a second.

[CountMRVHS]

Just played about 10 more turns tonight in my Early/GA/Expert HRE game (and under the effects of novocaine too, and an emerging pain in my jaw ... @#$%$ dentist...) and I actually seem to have reversed my turn of bad luck.

This has been one of the most wildly swinging games I've had: one minute everything appears lost; the next minute you're pulling out a crazy victory.

In my last session I had screwed things up royally by going after the HRE goal, which lost me all my nearby allies and inspired the Hungarians to attack me. We had gone back and forth for a few turns but the drain on my treasury was beginning to tell.... no more nice nest egg!

So today I fired it up and surveyed the situation. The Italians were still around in Genoa and Venice (and various places overseas), but weren't being too aggressive. To the west, France was holding onto most of its provinces despite a rebel enclave in Aquitaine, the Aragonese in Toulouse, and the English in Flanders. To the north, the Danes had expanded into Sweden and stopped. To the east, Poland was grabbing the rebel provinces to the north while Hungary was waiting to make another move on me.

My king at the time was around 58; 0-stars but great morale virtues that have saved my butt in several battles against the Huns. I guess even an Inbred king can be inspiring, if he's Chivalric enough . His son, Otto, had just come of age as a 3-star, 3-acumen Irritable prince with Secret Pride. The Emperor himself was besieging the Huns in Croatia; Otto was cooling it in Austria with some troops I'd been moving there to counter the eastern threat.

The HRE is frustrating because it's so hard to move around, especially in the southern half of the empire. My major troop-production centers were all in the west: Burgundy, Swabia and Switzerland. I had built a keep and some facilities in Austria; but of course the problem there is that Austria itself is on the frontline and vulnerable to attack. When Austria was under siege in my last session, I really depended on shunting my guys the long way over from the west.

Anyway, this was my thought: the Huns had sufficient forces in Hungary to move and relieve the siege in Croatia. Their 4-star King was in Hungary as well, and I didn't relish the thought of a King to King showdown between those two. On the other hand, I had some Swabians with my Emperor and my Prince, and enough forces to make a decent stand. But the fort in Croatia wasn't going to fall until NEXT turn; so in order to trash that province, I needed to siege it now. With that in mind, I set my Emperor's army to assault the fort and moved Prince Otto's half-stack to Hungary, with the hopes that his forces would "pin" the AI there and prevent them from interfering with my assault.

OK, hit End Turn. The Hun King had moved on me, after all, and was moving into Croatia to relieve the province. However, he only brought a token force with him -- some Jobbagy, HAs, UMs and Spears. My forces in Croatia were likewise small, but of better quality even though they had crap valour: 2 Archers, 2 MXBows, 1 Swabians, and a few UMs and Feudal Seargents.

For the battle, we set up on a nice hill overlooking a treeless plain. When the enemy got roughly within arrow range, I sent a MXbow along either wing to start taking pot-shots at the Hun King. Insanely, he abandoned his army and went off on a hopeless chase of the MXbows. The rest of his army trundled along at the bottom of the slope, apparently wondering whether to stay with their King or initiate the uphill assault.

This is one of the few times I've forsaken the higher ground. Siezing their moment of indecision, while their King was far away & preoccupied with my MXbows, I charged my weaker front-line infantry down the hill , leaving my King, archers, and the heavy-hitters at the top. My spears engaged their spears and Jobbaggy; they traded routs until I sent down more UMs to seal the deal.

By that time, the King had realized his error and was working his way back to my hilltop position. I turned my men to face him and sent the Swabians charging. This guy was a monster: alone, he reduced my Swabians to 10 men and wreaked havoc with my few Sergeants and UMs I had left on the hill. I kept my weak Emperor out of the fray but closeby for the morale bonus (although as he had no Command, that might not have even helped, right?). Eventually their king went down and the fighting in the plain below turned into a general rout.

The turn wasn't over. Prince Otto was invading Hungary, which now was defended by a 3-star Prince who led an army twice the size of Otto's. On closer inspection, the Hun army was made up of mostly Jobbagy, some HAs, Szekely and Horsemen; and the Prince unit consisted of only a couple RKs. I decided to go through with the attack.

Strange, though: last time attacking from Austria to Hungary, there was a 2-bridge battle. This time there was only 1 bridge. The Huns made it easier, however, by deciding THEY were going to do the attacking around here. I hastily pulled back my men to a more defensive position around the bridge and let them come. We routed the first unit of Spears and then the enemy Prince himself came on through, surrounded by a press of Jobbagy and other infantry, with their cavalry close behind. My end of the bridge turned into a mob, with my Swabians hacking their way through to the Hun Prince and my UMs barely holding their ground. Soon though the inevitable happened: either by a javelin or two-handed Swabian sword, the Hungarian Prince fell and his army scattered. There are few things more pleasing in this world than the sound of a large enemy army sounding the alarm, unit by unit, and scrambling to run back across the bridge away from your victorious killers .

As a wonderful outcome of my 2-province victory, Prince Otto gained Skilled Attacker to add to his virtues; and the Sicilians offered the hand of their Princess. Good thing: Emperor Ferdinand died that year in Croatia after winning his battle and the new Emperor Otto IV, at the age of 18, now had a wife. But probably the BEST result of all this was that the Hungarians, having lost 2 members of the royal family and as many provinces, split in a civil war: the besieged garrisons in Croatia and Hungary went rebel, and a stack led by a 3-star RK unit (probably an ex-heir) rebelled in Wallachia.

Knowing I couldn't keep Hungary or Croatia, I trashed Croatia next turn and pulled back out of Hungary. The rebel vacuum was swiftly filled by my allies, the Byzantines. With no shared borders, the German/Hungarian war ended, leaving the Italians and the Pope as the only outright enemies of the Empire.

As I said above, Genoa and Venice were still held by the Italians; my Germans held Milan, Tuscany, and Rome; the Pope was still in the Papal States and the Sicilians held Naples. Once Hungary was taken care of, I moved Otto IV against the Doge in Venice, who retreated with all his army to Serbia, giving up the province without a fight. Genoa received the same treatment. I usually like to play more strictly to the goals than this, but I decided that I simply needed that land; if I didn't take it the Italians would be a thorn in my side for years to come. Even if they never attacked me they would cause problems by simply being allied to other factions - such as the Poles and Danes - who wouldn't ally with ME because of the war between the HRE and Italians. So I've kicked the Italians out of Italy altogether, although they maintain a presence in Serbia and Croatia (which they took from rebels) as well as the islands of Corsica and Sardinia. Of course their fleet continues to be a nuisance, but with the takeover of Venice I've managed to get a Barque in the Adriatic that is preventing the easy maneuvring of their armies. Hopefully in the years to come there will at least be a cease fire; if not, I'll need to take stronger action against them.

The biggest surprise came at the end of my session, and I'll close with that. The Holy Father himself came out of the Papal States at the head of a ragtag army to challenge my authority in Venice. The Pope had 0-stars and led an army composed of UMs, Feudal Sergeants, Spears and Peasants; my army outnumbered his and was much more of a mixed force, with Archers, 2 Swabians, plenty of FS and UMs, and led by a MXbow governor. Needless to say, we made pretty short work of them, but the Pope himself got away, thus ending my hopes of getting out of the excommunication quickly. I thought my excom would end with the death of my last Emperor, but apparently not.... young Otto IV is still under the papal ban.

All in all it's been a successful decade for the HRE. The Polish have apparently turned on what's left of the Hungarians, their former allies, and the Byz are now a reasonable force in the Balkans. If only I could end the Italian war and have some peace; rebuild some alliances and start making money again (I have 3 trade fleets in the North Sea, Skagerrak, and the English Channel, but it's netting me a pathetic 60 Fl./turn.). Sadly, I don't see that happening very soon. At least things seem to be stabilizing again somewhat, and I'm leading in GA points. If I can hold on 'til High, I just might make it....

CountMRVHS

[Roark]

His Holiness is easily the most nimble and fleet-footed unit I have ever seen flee from a battlefield. I have NEVER, EVER managed to capture him for the purposes of ransom or execution...

Thus far I've had 3 failed opportunities in Venice (goading him to attack me, basically)...

Very frustrating.

[yesdachi]

@ Count - You probably could have gone another 10 turns in the time it took to type out all the events of your game. Thanks for sharing!

[EatYerGreens]

@ Count - You probably could have gone another 10 turns in the time it took to type out all the events of your game. Thanks for sharing!

I said this storytelling business is addictive!

Twice now I've spent so long on the forum (other threads, as well as this one) that I didn't get a single turn played in the day. It helps to take a break from it and come back later with fresh ideas in mind. Huge amounts of time goes into simply *thinking* about what to do next. The logistical problems then drag things out further... one unit in the wrong place or forgetting to move a key unit before pressing 'End Year' and you can find yourself delaying an attack until it catches up. Check and re-check everything.

In my game, Austria is relatively undeveloped (FM&B, Townwatch, 20%) and might be the reason I never had trouble from the Huns - they didn't think it was worth taking. They're long since gone but the Byz don't seem attracted by it either. Bohemia is developed likewise. I thought I was pushing my luck by building the silver mine but even that hasn't tempted anyone. The Poles did attack it once but withdrew without battle.

Bavaria has been sending a trickle of FS northeast to look after the river crossings but only one MtdSerges went east, as he had 3 stars (his name suggests he may be a 'hero' general), the rest spread about other fronts.

So my only eastern troop producer has been Silesia. I raised just one unit of Slav Warriors (only just better than pez!) to make up the numbers, then churned some woodsmen for a while. Partly for the novelty factor, mostly for 'cheapnis' but a pinch of AP ability at the bridges would be handy, I thought. Yeah, they'll probably just rout on me but you never know. They did come in handy a while later though.

I attacked the rebels in Denmark with a force which was only just bigger, hoping for a battle but they meekly retreated to their keep. My four star general may have had something to do with that. They had woodsmen too and I'd taken three units with me, in hope of matching them against one another. In any case, I swapped him, his FMAAs and archers out for some Saxony-raised v0 peasants, some spears, just in case, plus another couple of woodsmen and a 2* RK general in expectation of an assault (you can't move in and castle-assault on the same turn). This was all so that the trashy units took the worst of the siege losses and this amounted to just over 70 men, the equivalent of a whole unit gone but obviously spread out among all of them. I lacked siege gear so autocalced the keep assault battle (cheesy, sorry) and won without the keep being reduced to a fort. The port went but the Dockyard was left in place. Once the province is stabilised, I can start my northern fleet even though no trade income will start until the port is rebuilt.

An over-ambitious building/training program had seen my Treasury dip from 4000+ to around 900 florins around the time of the Denmark invasion. However, on the same turn as assaulting Roskilde castle, I invaded Rome.

This was slightly touch and go as, with impeccable timing, the Papal States stack attacked Tuscany as my expeditionary force left. Fortunately, the Tuscany battle was resolved first and also, instead of making my Rome invasion force oversized, I'd taken only enough to do the job, with the general's 3 stars giving me the edge. In Tuscany, their lack of archers was telling. They maneuvered hither and thither, trying to disguise where they were to strike my hilltop position. My archers were well forward and got numerous rounds away. I think some of the papal units must have crossed each other's path as my archers didn't seem to skirmish away from the units nearest them. I had set them on hold-form but not on hold-position. Nevertheless, one got slightly caught and all three had to be manually pulled to safety. Meanwhile, the bulk of their force was to my left and 1 FMAA, 2 MilSerges and two UMs from my right charged downhill, rescued the archers and soon set the opposition running. My RK general chased some of their UMs which routed forwards and I was careful to ensure the router pursuit was limited to the left hand edge of the map, as I knew they'd brought artillery. The kills ratio was close to 8:1 but no defender V&V was gained as a result. Perhaps the victory was a little too easy?

The Pope himself decided victory was not his but, mysteriously, chose not to retreat to his castle and evacuated the province. The resultant pillage was considerable but there are numerous juicy buildings still in place. Loyalty was in the red, since my force had been small. Tempting as a ready-made 1* assassin might have been, I raised some armoured FMAA instead, for what was to follow.

Just as in Count's game, the reverses of fortune are amazing. From 4000 florins down to 900 and then, with ransom and two doses of pillage, back up to 4000+ again in the space of two turns.

Somewhere in the midst of all this action, the magnificent emperor, Herrmann II, died of an illness whilst stationed in Lorraine. The new Emperor is [EDIT: Heinrich V], who had been in charge of Provence but is relocated to Swabia, since that is effectively the capital at present, leaving a 0-star, 1 loyalty, leader in Provence. Luckily, Herrmann had not acquired 'Steward' so there was no dramatic pinch on the economy with his passing. Recent boosts to funds and incomplete farms projects soon to complete may help Conrad get it instead.

In the meantime, I was pleased to obtain a ceasefire with the English, so Provence is not really threatened anymore, then the English went on to exterminate the Aragonese.

Sadly and mysteriously, I had the same problem as CountMRVHS. The excommunication persisted after Herrmann's death. Perhaps the ongoing war situation with the Papacy had something to do with this?

My frustration grew, rather than abating, when the Pope also died a few turns later, just after his evacuation from Rome. Yes, the excommunication is now annulled but a rebellion has risen in Rome - more than enough FMAAs to slaughter my mostly UM forces, as far north as Milan!

That's the point where I saved the game and had to make a reappearance on the forum. The loyalist revolt stack is on the board and it's a Papal army, not rebels. I think fighting it in a field battle will result in instant excom again and that wipes out my hopes of Crusading to the Holy Lands, which I really want to try out, if only to check for this points bug.

The question is, if I pull my force out of Rome and let them retake it without resistance, the territory changing hands still counts as 'hostilities in progress' and could mean excom all the same. I will have something like 2-3 FMAA in Tuscany, 2 RKs, both 3* generals, some MilSerges and 4-5 v1 (Tuscany-raised) UMs. In all, no match for the multiple FMAAs in the loyalist stack. I'll be lucky if, the turn after next, it doesn't split in two, or mix with the Papal States stack and come after me in Tuscany. Again, if the Pope attacks me, it's still instant excom.

I'm tempted to upload the gamesave because there are so many options for what buildings to destroy in Rome, for the cash, before I evacuate. The watchtowers need to go, in case an assassination opportinity arises. The Alehouse has to go, so he can't raise agents for a while. Swordsmith, Guild level spears, archer workshop, 20% farms.

Terribly, terribly tempting to smash the castle itself and build more crops or a keep at home but it's massively cheesy. With all the troops he has to maintain and pathetic income once I've torched Rome's farms, he will be lucky to get it back to fort level before the cash runs out. Something to trap him in, at a later date, could be useful. [EDIT: I've since learned that faction leaders evade castle entrapment when they have provinces to escape to instead.] Besides, that'll save me money on redevelopment if I retake Rome at a later date. The next points opportunity for it is a long way off.

Basically, my move into Rome couldn't have happened at a worse time. I'd sent a bishop to approach the old pope for a ceasefire *after* taking Rome but it was the new pope who refused him an audience. Remember it was the Papacy who initiated the war in the first place. Does he want us to crusade the Holy Lands, or doesn't he?

The game really ought to have been hard-coded to stop the Cathy factions from attacking one another before 1205, so that they could work together and all resources could have gone on Crusading. After 1205, all hell can break loose, afaic.

EDIT Reason: factual corrections and additional info.

[dgfred]

The massive problems conflict with the Pope causes is the main reason I tend
to leave the Pope be, and usually forget about that part of the GA points
unless something extraordinary happens to give me an opening. As for Austria I usually use it for priest/assassins/inquis/etc and alson build up the
mines. I like to use Franconia and Bohemia for units because of the iron
supplies there. With Switzerland, Burgandy, Swabia and sometimes Provence
producing my early units I can usually hang on until I'm able to produce some
of the stronger units.

Any pics available for us to gaze at EYG? Thanks for your efforts with this.

[yesdachi]

I finally got to play yesterday/last night!!!!! (I have been working a lot)

Brief recap and then the action, HRE/early/expert I’m not sure what year it is but I just got the gunpowder notice and I am about 30 points ahead of others. I have taken over everything from the HRE’s original eastern front all the way west and down around to Egypt. I managed to get some priests built and moved them around to see what is going on in other areas. I was excited and surprised to see the Turks and Russians were combating with massive armies in the NE, I have never seen the Russians with such a large army (10 partial stacks in one province ). Also surprising was the fact there was no sign of the Mongols at all. I had good timing, because an interesting thing happened in the middle of the Turk/Russian battlefront, the Spanish reappear!! Not in Spanish territory but in one of the small NE provinces . They had 3 stacks with some pretty good troops but after a few turns were wiped out.

I was able to make it thru at least 25 turns without any war, which is crazy because I am at war with everyone except the Turks and Russians (there are still 7+ factions left). I was able to organize my troops into several armies, 2 in the north and one in the south, and one ready for crusade action. I also had the chance to build some buildings, farms, ships, not many troops, I’m trying to save my money for the better ones that I will have available soon.

One of the most surprising things to happen was that I have 6 heirs and all of them rock ! The worst of them is a 4* with Pride. The best is a 5* with 8 feathers!!!

The only downside is that I think I have conquered too much and depending on how the war between the Turks and Russians goes I might be too powerful to be beaten. Perhaps I will stick to the HRE’s general area for my next game.

[dgfred]

Good playing yesdachi . How did you start out? I mean, what
were your builds/stategy/troop/etc..... and which factions caused you early
problems. On expert it is really hard for me to get the HRE going , you have made it look easy . Maybe when you
restart with them you can update us from the beginning.

[CountMRVHS]

@EYG:

RE: Papal abandonment of province. You'll see this happen with any AI "king" unit - Pope, King, Emperor, whatever. Basically, if you attack the province where their king is sitting, and if you bring a larger/more threatening army to that battle, the AI will withdraw out of the province altogether rather than allow their king to be trapped in the fort. As you know, when you choose to retreat to the fort the message says something like "your general will attempt to get the best men into the fort"; well, a king unit is always going to be shortlisted for that. It's kind of smart of the AI to do that, actually, to regroup with their royal family to a better position rather than let you assault & kill their king next turn.

Of course you can exploit this knowledge when you want to burn a province for some quick cash: attack wherever the king is, and bring a big army. The AI will abandon the province, and you can destroy and burn to your heart's delight. The problem here is that it's rather difficult to get the timing down: often you'll invade and the king will have moved out on the same turn, leaving you facing a battle you weren't expecting. It can be something of a shell game, pinning down that AI king.

RE: excomm. As I understand it, if the Pope is the initiator of a war with you, you don't necessarily get the instant excom that you would get if YOU started the war and attacked the Pope. Been awhile since I fought the Pope (I usually try to be a good Catholic turtle ), but I'm pretty sure I've seen the pope attack me and I didn't get slapped. I think I remember other people mentioning the same thing. Now, I'm not sure to what extent you can fight BACK without getting hit, if at all...

CountMRVHS

[Roark]

@ yesdachi:

I'm extremely jealous of your heir situation. My Emperors have only managed 2-3 sons on a consistent basis, and none of my royal line has exceeded 3 stars or 6 influence, despite the fact that I now own everything from Brittany to Hungary!!! I've only had one failed crusade, but God seems to have cursed my Royal family as a result.

[CountMRVHS]

Just played another 9 turns and had some interesting developments, but will try to keep it brief.

My first order of business was to try and end the wars ongoing with the Papacy and Italy. In Italy, I held Milan, Tuscany, Venice, Genoa, and Rome; the Italians held Serbia and Croatia (king in Croatia) as well as Corsica and Sardinia; the Pope held the Papal States and the Sicilians held Naples.

So, I send a half-stack to take out the 0-star Pope. My general is an ex-heir RK with maybe 1 star, but when I got to the battle screen I saw that he must have been a Drunkard of some kind because his valour was at -1. Oh well; nothing in this papal army but 1 full RK, a catapult, a ballista, and some crap ragtag peasant/spear/UM partial units. I advance my army forward. As the enemy catapult fires for the first time I ponder the many times I've read here at the Org about generals in MTW having some sort of "big giant rock magnet" implanted in their skulls. Sure enough, the very first boulder smashes into my RK unit and squashes my general flat. Sober up, fella! Watch for falling rocks!

I have to stress that this catapult unit must have been 0-valour, as it was under the command of a no-star pope general. It got me thinking, though: might the negative valour of my general have somehow "drawn" the missile to him? Just curious. I've never seen that happen to me.

As it turns out it really had no effect on the battle. I killed all on the field; no one escaped to the Keep, and by the next turn the Papacy was wiped out and I burned the Papal States. I abandoned the province, hoping that when the Pope re-emerged, he would do it there and leave Rome alone.

Meanwhile, I had just trained Henry the Lion (4-star general) in Austria as a unit of FS, so I sent him to Croatia with a stack and some extra to push out the Italians. They left without a fight and next turn I cornered them in Croatia (my fleet blockaded theirs so there was no seaborne retreat this time!) and killed the king. The remainder of the garrison that escaped the battle turned rebel next turn, but the Italians remained on the islands.

My plan originally was to burn Serbia and withdraw back to Venice to regroup, but...... Serbia's pretty rich! At least for an HRE province. Having a Gold Mining Complex survive the siege didn't hurt either. So I'm keeping it, mostly to deny the Byz the chance of getting it: they hold pretty much everything else in the Balkans and, although we're allied, I fear the moment when they break that alliance.

Sadly, Italy maintained a fleet, so we were still at war; and Poland, their ally, wouldn't allywith me. I'd hate to see Poland attack me -- not that I wouldn't be able to handle it, but it might give their allies, the Byz, a chance to break their alliance with ME. So, I have to work on ending the war with Italy for good and getting back in Poland's good graces.

Spent a few turns just building and enjoying watching my income increase again; I'm back in the heady days of 2000/turn and hovering around 10,000 in the bank. Nice!

Not so nice: when I retreated from the Papal States, a tiny rebel force cropped up, and the Sicilians took advantage. Wouldn't you know it; the VERY YEAR the Sicilians make their move north, the Papacy returns...... and just guess which province?? (drum roll)......................


Rome!!

It's a typical Papal reemergence; around 6 stacks of decent units. In other words, too much for me to handle at the moment. I move my army out of Rome but leave the buildings intact: hey, I want to get this place back eventually. Interestingly, before I even hit End Turn my diplomacy shows I'm at war with the Papacy again.... and when I hit End Turn and check the diplomacy again, after they officially take over the province, we're at peace. Huh. I'm sending an emissary to try to turn that into an alliance next turn.

I've certainly bought myself some elbow-room, but now I'm getting apprehensive about the next stage in the game, as various factions get stronger and start to get more aggressive. The French kicked the English out of Flanders and have been taking baby steps North; they now hold Wessex and have stopped for a few turns. The Aragonese continue to hold Toulouse and, astonishingly, 2 units of rebel Archers hold Aquitaine. Why doesn't the AI go after these tiny rebel forces? The Byz, as I said, are the major force to my immediate East, but Poland has just wiped out the Hungarians. The year is 1156.

CountMRVHS

[EatYerGreens]

@ dgfred No worthwhile pics at the moment, sorry.


@ CountMHRVS. Thanks for those Faction leader entrapment tips. That will come in handy in future. I've been known to abandon provinces purely to save a general with stars on him, let alone my faction leader, as I know I have enough forces within reach to quickly take it back. I can take the loss of income if it means I don't lose a decent leader to starvation in some dumb siege.

RE: excomm. As I understand it, if the Pope is the initiator of a war with you, you don't necessarily get the instant excom that you would get if YOU started the war and attacked the Pope. Been awhile since I fought the Pope (I usually try to be a good Catholic turtle ), but I'm pretty sure I've seen the pope attack me and I didn't get slapped. I think I remember other people mentioning the same thing. Now, I'm not sure to what extent you can fight BACK without getting hit, if at all...

CountMRVHS

What complicated matters for me was that a Papal Warning, specifically for hostilities against the French, preceded the excommunication but there was also action against the excommed English (Crusade to Anjou) plus the Pope initiating war against me, all mixed up in a short space of time. The excom itself was a generalised "for aggression against fellow Christians" but my initial thought was that there was a direct link to the Pope's aggression against me. In other words, he can attack you and then use that as justification for instant excom. I'm glad to hear that this assumption is incorrect.

If I read you right, I should burn Rome, for whatever cash I desire (like you, I'm tempted to actually leave the castle in place, in case I get Rome back in the near future) and pull out in my next move? Unlike in your case, I expect the war to remain ongoing (mine does not involve a re-emergence) and if he gathers both stacks and attacks Tuscany the year after, am I supposed to pull out again and let him have it or do you still think I can fight him off and not risk excom? (Same war, new Pope, cos the old one died in the year of the loyalist uprising).

[EatYerGreens]

I don't often wind back and re-read old parts of a thread but, if I hadn't, I wouldn't have spotted this (below) at all. It didn't show up as 'latest post in this thread' so it must have gone in when I was drafting the one with the pics in it.

EYG is easily the most prolific writer in the MTW Org.

As they say about life, you have to put stuff into it, to get anything out of it!

It should be noted that a lot of things I've picked up, from reading this place, do get incorporated back into what I write, with or without my own 'spin' on things. However, my memory is terrible - I remember the facts but not where I read it or who said what and when. Apologies to all whom I'm 'derivative' of.

[CountMRVHS]

Well, the strange thing for me was the fact that, even though the Pope technically invaded "my" province (I still had ownership of Rome even though I'd moved all my troops out), we somehow didn't end up going to war. I fully expected, when I pulled out of Rome, that I'd be back at war with the pope, but that I would *not* be excommed as a result of this, because he was the aggressor.

Can anyone else confirm this, by the way? I'm going from memory here, but I'm 99% sure there have been times when the pope attacked me and I did not get the instant excom.

At any rate, it seems like in my case the pope didn't even realize he attacked me, so we're not at war. In your case, however, you're at war already. My *guess* here would be that, since you are at war with the Pope as is, any actions you take against him will be seen in the context of that war and will not lead to excom. Only a guess, though. Fortunately, it doesn't sound like you're planning on attacking; you're more interested in drawing a line somewhere in Italy beyond which the pope cannot go. I am much more confident that, if you fight a *defensive* battle, you won't get excommed. And Tuscany is a good bottleneck province to keep; if you give it up, he can strike at Genoa, Milan and Venice (depending on what you have).

Of course if I'm wrong here and you DO get excommed for just defending, all you have to do is meet the Pope barefoot in the snow and kneel at his feet and all will be forgiven. Oh, and don't make a fuss about holding the stirrup of his horse when he goes to dismount -- trust me.

CountMRVHS

[OlafTheBrave]

Agression by the Pope does not ex-comm you. Deffending will not either. Re-taking a province or an attack will get ya the broken cross.

[AntiochusIII]

The pope attacking you unprovoked will not cause an instant excom. I remember I got a warning about it (being Italians, early, unintentionally baited him into Venice with low garrison how sad I couldn't capture him. I thought I was about to jump-start my economy), though I'm not sure that's always the case for the warning.

Also, when he reemerges, you can retreat all your forces from the provinces he reemerge from on that turn and it will not be considered war. I'm not sure if this is the case to all re-emergence or not, though I have a vague memory it should.

However, even though he attacks you first, any retaliation you take will instantly excommunicate you. I suggest that EYG should regroup, led the pope spread thinner into Southern Italy, take him again when he's thinly-spreaded (Rome, IMO, is essential for points...and Imperial ego ), and forces him into eternal "confinement" in the Papal States. Takes a lot of effort, but will save you the trouble for the rest of the game.

Otherwise, get the assassins going!

I remembered something about if you managed to secure a ceasefire (almost impossible) from the pope when you're ex-commed, you'll return to his good Catholic grace. Though it probably is a mistake/misunderstanding on my part. Can anyone shed light on this?

Really great thread, by the way. Makes me Nostalgic about MTW as a whole, and my black empires especially.

[yesdachi]

Good playing yesdachi . How did you start out? I mean, what
were your builds/stategy/troop/etc..... and which factions caused you early
problems. On expert it is really hard for me to get the HRE going , you have made it look easy . Maybe when you
restart with them you can update us from the beginning.

This is actually the same game I started back in the 1st page of this thread. I just haven’t had the chance to play/update very often . I don’t know if I am getting to be a better player or if I have been very lucky this game. Maybe a little of both but I attribute most of the success of this game to playing, although in GA mode, with a “conquest” attitude. I think I may push forward a little and take the 60% win and start a new one with a “GA” attitude.

@ Roark – I have been very surprised at the quality of heirs too. I thought that since this was an expert game and I am doing well I thought I would be given the worst ones ever! The AI gods are probably saving them all for my next game .

[ajaxfetish]

I'll confirm Count's & Antiochus' statements. Defending against Papal aggression has not excommunicated me, though retreating to my stronghold in the face of his superior troops and then bringing in forces to retake my land the next turn has. IIRC, I have pulled completely out of provinces in the event of a reemergence (of any faction) and thus avoided going to war with them.

EYG-It may be awhile before you can take Rome back, and since the war is going to keep on going, I'd raze Rome to the ground (Vandal-style) and consolidate in Tuscany. That'll keep him from producing any more good troops and possibly bankrupt him. I wouldn't consider it too cheesy to tear down his keep. Why hand over a perfectly good defensive position to an enemy when you have it in your control and can leisurely take it apart brick by brick? Especially when you can then sell off all your new bricks and use the cash to improve some farmland? Anyway, if you can get enough good troops together in Tuscany and stay on the defensive, you should be able to keep the faith, maintaining a little more influence, troop loyalty, and the option to fulfill your crusading desires!

Good luck!

[EatYerGreens]

Well, I razed Rome but had to reload a gamesave and do it again because....

There's a slight problem involving the castle upgrade structures (so a slight tie-in with another recent thread). Basically, when I went to destroy his 'Ring Wall and Catapult towers', it only offered me 150 florins but the entire castle disappeared off the map at the same time!!

No 1000 florins on top for the castle destruction, so I reloaded and smashed everything except the castle upgrade. So, whilst it's unlikely the AI will ever employ that tactic, there is another motivation for building the upgrades.

It's easy to forget that the upgrades take the place of the base fort/keep/castle on the province's buildings window. Obviously some glitch in the destruction coding only gives you half the value of the upgrade, not the half-value of the whole structure.

I did toy with the idea of leaving a small garrison in the castle and having some fun watching them assault versus all these catapults on the walls but pulled out completely, instead. As per recent postings, there was no excom. He did attack me in Tuscany, only to lose and then refuse ransom, so he's definitely skint.

I only got my funds up to around 5000 or so and rather rapidly spent the lot. I got a Crusade marker trained, only to find that the ongoing war situation means that I get a message saying 'These lands are owned by the {faction} and the Pope forbids you to launch any crusades'. So I've wasted my money, basically.

I've advanced to 1192, still unable to crusade and just about broke. I had to demolish my own training buildings in certain provinces in order to raise enough to get a Trade Post into Flanders, a fort in Lorraine and a TP there as well - the only economic improvements I could afford. Also a port in Tuscany (as soon as considered safe from Papal attacks), so as to double the income of my four ships.

I had put a port in place in Denmark but the attack on a small force in Sweden failed dismally. On the strat map their general was 3-star but in the pre-battle screen he showed as 4-star (it lied...again!!). Later checks on his V&V's showed nothing giving an extra star on defence - contrarily, he had Poor Last Stand, -1 Cmd when faced by superior odds. I ploughed on when I shouldn't have - better valour on his troops. My general's RK's auto-charged and got carved up by 43 Vikings, leaving me with only 3 of them to face-off with the 8 knights their general had, v1 versus v4. All three of mine died on contact. I tried to shoot him down with mounted xbows but they ended up being charged and cut down to half strength. I had to withdraw in the end but the timer was running out anyway. Every enemy unit but their general had been routed but it was ultimately unwinnable with the rags I was left with.

Anyway, just after that, the Danes re-emerge with 4 stacks in Norway and the force which just beat me joins them, so I can't make a follow up attack unless I want BIG trouble! Give or take the duration of their Norway siege, the four stacks can be in Denmark before I complete a ship if I started it now. Assuming I can even afford one, that is!

The Sicilians also re-emerge, with about 5 stacks in Sardinia, with the rebels in Sicily, Naples and Malta joining their cause. My ships now link Genoa with Malta (I had half a plan for invading Malta which I'm glad never came to pass) so Genoa's trade is on the up. Then they spoil things slightly by attacking the Byz in Corsica, which will likely wreck that port as well as give me a tough choice over who to be allied with.

The Poles (allies) do put me on exactly this kind of spot by attacking the Byz (also allies) in Prussia. Instinct told me to be united with my Cathy chums, against the natural rival of the HRE's self-styled 'successor to ancient Rome' ideal but I was a 'cowardy custard' and chose to stick with the side who had been the longer-standing ally of the two and who'd left me alone for all this time.

Probably a poor choice though - the GA points screen tells me they've lost every single one of their former homelands and, to cap it all, a large force of Turks pokes a hole in the Byz front on my eastern border, taking over a ery well-developed Hungary (nice income level). I don't feel in a position to stop them, if they come any further. They have about 1500 men and a 5* commander, I have about 700 and a 2* one. Everyone else is 2-3 year's travel away and, if I should budge any of those, in come the French. Gulp.

In the meantime, the Spanish King got a bit over-ambitious in his attacks and got himself killed, wiping out his faction. In the last few turns, all of Spain has gone Almo and one of their >30 buildings goals is shown in green. Action in Spain (and the English taking Aragon) smashed the ports on its coast some time ago, hence my ships moving eastward.

Did I say I was broke? All the money from Rome was spent, I smashed some of my own buildings in desperation to increase income. I've demobilised several of my more trashy units but only managed to get cashflow just above 500 per turn. There's almost no troop movements I can make without some province dropping its income because the tax rate dips from Very High to High (autotax is on).

I have been passing the time by retraining some troops, to give them armour and, with my cash levels so low, I'm beginning to wonder if it is 'free' after all?

My final 'major investment' was splashing out 400 (about half my treasury) on a Horse Breeder in Swabia, the last item requied to make FK's. I don't think I can actually afford to train any but it's a small comfort to know I might be able to raise some after the next battle with heavy casualties ups my cashflow once more.

So, I'm stuck. All I can do now is sit back and wait to be attacked by whatever comes. The extended period of peace (excom gone) means no earnings from ransom and pillage. Basically my underlying economy was never healthy enough to support the size of army I've raised. Even these now look puny in the face of three nearby re-emergences (Poles, Danes, Sicilians), not to mention the Turks coming on the scene. The Sicilians obviously had a wad of starting cash as they have already got a ship into the med. We all KNOW what they like to do with those and they are my sole trading partner right now. Suddenly this game looks like no fun any more.

[OlafTheBrave]

Dont build for a few turns if necessary and consider a Drang Nach Osten crusade. You have it built so use it. Also the pope will not let you crusade against a faction he is allied with so keep an eye on that. I would also recomend taking auto tax off but keeping a close eye on the loyalty percentage. 98% would be well worth the risk for extra income.

[EatYerGreens]

Dont build for a few turns if necessary and consider a Drang Nach Osten crusade. You have it built so use it. Also the pope will not let you crusade against a faction he is allied with so keep an eye on that. I would also recomend taking auto tax off but keeping a close eye on the loyalty percentage. 98% would be well worth the risk for extra income.

Hmmm, my post was a bit long and rambling, so a crucial bit of what I was saying got buried.

The Pope will not let me launch this crusade at ANYWHERE!!

Rebel-held provinces were highlighted as potential targets but each time, I got the same message about him 'not permitting' any such activity. Interestingly, when I hovered it over the Levant targets, they came up in a deep red colour. Gah!

Another odd thing I've noticed, in a similar vein, is that Inquisitors would not light up in grey when I hovered them over rebel generals. When these joined the Sicilian re-emergence, suddenly they became legitimate targets. After surprisingly few inquests, I got one up to 4 stars (yum!) and another to two stars. Star rating of the target seems to make the Inquie's rank go up by leaps and bounds (e.g. first success and they go from nil stars to two, in one go).

I also fried the three/four star general who'd killed the commander of my Swedish invasion army but this only became possible after he'd joined the Danes' re-emergence. Still can't fry the Pope though (0% chance). :-(

I have one assassin now up to four stars, so I'm contemplating going rampant on my western front, obliterating the French to make some cash and not caring about the excom, then whack him so I can send this crusade off.

Actually, I think it's the war-footing with the Pope which is preventing Crusades (I'm not excommed yet), so it's looking like the only hope is to wipe him out completely, then evacuate when he re-emerges.

[yesdachi]

Actually, I think it's the war-footing with the Pope which is preventing Crusades (I'm not excommed yet), so it's looking like the only hope is to wipe him out completely, then evacuate when he re-emerges.

That's what I would do.