Saxons (BI faction)

[frogbeastegg]

Guide

[CountMRVHS]

I'm still playing my first BI campaign as the Saxons, M/M to get the feel of the game. Default unit sizes also.

The Saxons begin with one lone city, Vicus Saxones, near modern-day Denmark. Nearby is the thinly-stretched Western Roman Empire, Franks, Burgundii, and a very close Rebel town to the SE (Campus Chatti, I believe). Moving on this rebel town within the first couple turns is a good idea, as the Burgundii will likely move on it as well. You have to get there first.

Fortunately, in BI in general you start off with rather advanced facilities. It will take awhile to tech up to your killers: Chosen Axemen and Saxon Hearth Troops. For the first stage of the game you'll depend on Saxon Keels, Levy Spearmen, Hunters, and Saxon Sea Raiders.

Levy Spearmen are a little weaker than Keels but have a larger unit size and another neat attribute: they can throw a javelin before melee. In melee, both the Levy Spearmen and Keels are, well, spearmen, but I haven't had any problems with them: spears seem to stand up to all kinds of units better in BI. Hunters are your archer units, and they come in handy for obvious reasons. Sea Raiders are a lance-armed light cav unit; useful for flanking and rear charges. They can get into trouble though, so don't depend on them for too much. Remember: the Saxons are an infantry-heavy faction. Though they may look like Riders of Rohan, don't use 'em that way.

Once you have Campus Chatti under your belt, you need to decide where to head next. I try to make friends with my neighbouring barbarians. These alliances seem to work much better in BI than in RTW, where the Britons could NEVER stay allied with the Gauls or Germans, and vice versa. I have yet to be backstabbed by any of my barbarian allies so far.

Obviously, the Western Romans are your big adversary. This is where much of your lands will come from. The question is, do you conquer down the coast toward Brittany, or immediately set sail for England? In my campaign I opted for the latter (I was impatient to see if the Romano-British would appear), and I built the first boat I could make, trained up some Chosen Axemen and Hearth Troops (taking 7 turns), and sent my 23-year-old faction leader out to sea from Vicus Saxones.

Now, this is important: Rebel boats are thick as flies in the north sea/English Channel, and these pirates are *Very* dangerous. Especially when you face them in dinky little Boats. Halfway to England, my faction leader and all my bright, shiny new troops were sunk to the bottom of the sea.

So if you want to invade England quick, watch out for those pirates. March your army down the coast and send a boat to meet up with them to ferry them across the channel quickly. Even better, conquer the closest West Roman town to the SW (between Samarobriva and Vicus Saxones) and stage the conquest from there.

Although the WRE doesn't seem to have a large standing army, they do tend to bulk up their garrisons when feeling threatened. Once my Saxons took London (exterminated the extremely unhappy populace), I set my sights on Eburacum and started training some fresh troops. I also allied with the Celts in the hopes that they'd help me out. But the WRE quickly began training in Eburacum: they went from 1/4 of a stack to more than a full stack before I felt my troops could handle it. Quite the arms race! Expect to see the AI "bulk up" like that when it's afraid you'll assault its town.

By the time I sent my army north, there were numerous single-stack parties surrounding Eburacum and the woods nearby. I simply punched my way through these, forcing them to retreat, until I lured the WRE garrison out of town (the full stack showed up as a reinforcement army when I attacked one of the tiny parties). Chosen Axemen and Hearth Troops against Foederati and Limitanes(sp.) is basically no contest. I was able to crush the army and move into town.

Of course (SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT!)


this is the point at which the Romano-British faction emerges. When Eburacum fell, a blue stack appeared halfway between that and Londinium. I was expecting a bit more, and probably will see more units at a higher difficult level, but these were enough to cause me a headache. My only general in Britain was in just-conquered Eburacum, which had hardly any troop facilities. The small garrison I'd left in Londinium was led by a captain. Londinium fell when the Romano-British assaulted it 2 turns later. Watch out for these guys: they've got some nice heavy infantry and usually quite a few warlord-type cav that can give your footmen a headache. Fortunately I was able to retake Londinium with my general and wipe out the faction next turn.

At this point you'll be wondering: should I continue pushing north/west and wipe out the Celts, or drive south and finish off the WRE? The Saxons need to hold Vicus Saxones, Londinium, and Samarobriva in order to win; but they also need 18 provinces. Since you're already at war with the WRE, it might be a good time to consolidate the lands in France before other barbarians get greedy.

In my game, I fussed around a bit too much and before I knew it the Goths and Vandals had relocated to southern France, and the Sarmatians were knocking on the Franks' door. Those hordes can move! So be ready for it and try to grab as much land as you can before they show up.

Sometimes you'll get lucky. I had a general with a half-stack parked on the mainland, waiting to ambush for several turns, when I noticed that the WRE had left Colonia Agrippina COMPLETELY abandoned! I took my hidden army and was able to march it in through the gates and take the town without a fight.

Unless you want to fight your fellow barbarians, you'll probably be taking over much of France and a bit extra in order to get your 18 provinces. Even if you act fast, you'll likely be at war with more than just the WRE to do this. That's where I am in my game now: I grabbed 4 towns off the WRE on the mainland, but the rest of Gaul is split between the Goths, Vandals, and who knows who else. My endgame scenario, once I take out the Celts, will involve fighting lots of separate factions and dealing with hordes in my push to northern Italy. Not the cleanest way to do it, but you don't have much choice.....

Will write more when I finish. Just wanted to get things kick-started!

CountMRVHS

[afrit]

Just finished my first BI campaign with Saxons on Med/Med

I agree with CountMRVHS. Warning: some spoilers below (but, hey , why are you reading the guide then?).

Overall Strategy:
You objective is to get 18 provinces including: Vicus Saxonii (capital), Samarobriva and Londinium.

As CountMRVHS put it, the WRE is the main enemy. They hold 2 target provinces and have lots of territory. Because of their size, I initially allied with them, but ended up being betrayed very early (Winter 369 AD). So prepare for that. Luckily, they have so many problems that once you weather their initial armies, they will have trouble reinforcing.

The settled barbarians to the east and south (Burgundians, franks, alemanni , lombards) can be a nuisance. My strategy was to keep them at bay but not expand against them so as to concentrate against WRE. This worked fine. I managed to deter the Burgundians from declaring war by keeping a strong garrison in Campus Chatti. The franks attacked me regardless and were easy to beat. The Alemanni allied with me for almost the entire game. When I got to 15 provinces, I finally attacked east to get the last 3 provinces.

The Romano-British will emerge when you capture both Eburacum and Londinium. So when you land in Britain, take lots of force with you unless you are willing to lose Londinium (I took my faction heir with a full stack and did fine). The Romano-british on Med/Med was a single full stack.

The Celts left me alone, but I attacked them to take their 2 provinces.

Other enemies you can run into are the hordes of barbarians fleeing West. To avoid them expand west into France, and not south or east. France has a lots of rich provinces that are easy prey. BUT, if you delay, hordes may get there first. In the last 3 turns of my game (AD 290-292) southern France was awash with Sarmatian and Hunnic hordes. Luckily I eked out victory before they assaulted my settlements.

The pirates in the North sea are powerful. I lost many naval battles before subduing them. Also, the WRE will mount a naval war if challenged, so don't send ships solo in the North sea.

Economy:
The network of maritimie provinces around the North Sea can generate quite a bit of trade. Give priority to ports and make sure pirates don't blockade you.
Plunder from sacking the cities of the WRE was a big source of income too.

Units:
I found the archers ("Hunters") quite useful against the romans . You can get them from level 1 range and then upgrade with temples. The Saxon Spearmen are (I think) a steal: they are a large unit (120 men on Large size), they hold well against cavalry, they have pila (javelins) and are cheap and obtainable on level one. The Raiders light cav rounds the lineup. I did not feel the higher units were really that useful.


A lot of the above will probably not apply on higher levels (I suspect that the Burgundians will not be deterrable on higher difficulty and you would therefore end up with a 2 front war from the get go).

[gmjapan]

I grabbed the two rebel towns Campus Chatti and the other to the south west of your capital. Move fast to them, the garrisons are easy to beat with your starting general and couple of spearmen and a couple of hunters.

I went for stables in my capital to give me simple (i.e. weak as paper) cavalry to put in my armies. I think this was a good move as latter on I did a lot of defending and a couple of cav units give you alot of flexibility on the field.

While Chatti gives you a nicer looking eastern border and some breathing space, the other rebel town can build a port and I think that is far more important for what the Saxons will be getting up to. But get them both anyway and you have a more stable "empire". They are an excellent buffer to your capital.

I managed to get alliances with everyone around straight off the bat, Burgundii, franks, WRE etc but the WRE backstabbed me really early, about a turn after I beat them to the rebel town South West of my capital in fact.

But if you are going to be at war with them anyway, I feel better if they start it.

Hunters and basic spearmen will help you hold onto your three towns from the WRE at the start, if you get too many fancy units for defence you will be in trouble trying to repair them between attacks.

You start with 3 boats in the North Sea and if Pirates dont get them first (!), build two strongish, mixed armies (not necessarily maxed!) and go "invent" the Romano British! You start with alot of money and I used this to fund the expitionary force. I didnt have to build more boats to do this but in retrospect that was playing with fire! With a mix army, use your spearmen to hold and work around to the flanks with cav or whatever you have available. Units hold alot longer and as such the battles a more enjoyable.

I had a terrible time with the Vandals later (this was my first time) but hey, wheres the fun if its too easy right!

[SpencerH]

So far I've found the biggest problem with the Saxons to be the lack of funds. My game has become one of money management rather than anything else. It reminds me very much of my Brit campaign in RTW i.e. not very much fun.

Strategically, I've had to expand southward against the Franks, Vandals, and WRE (since they attacked me and I limit myself to only attacking when attacked first) rather than the more economically viable move across the coast and Britain (that have ports). I've been in a constant war with the Goths and WRE despite obliterating their invading forces time and time again but because of the limitations of funds I cant build enough forces to protect my lands from the west and advance against two large empires in the south and east. As with the Brits I expect that the balance will eventually tip and from there it will be all easy-going afterwards.

Tactically, I tend to build elite units rather than peasants with sticks and have slaughtered every army (Romans, Goths, Vandals, Franks) I've fought using upgraded hunters (archers) and cavalry (with a few inf units).

Standing enemy with shields are well protected from arrows but not moving ones. Threaten their flanks with cav to make em re-position then pepper-em with arrows. Alternatively, sting em with arrows then skirmish backwards if they chase then hit em from the flanks with cav. Dont send cav into Gothic spears unless they are disorganized (they seem to form a schiltron-type hedgehog defense if given time) and/or flanked.

[McDoogle]

Well, you guys have had a very different start then i did. I stayed where i was for several turns and built up my barracks so i oculd produced saxon kneels. Very interesting units, i then built stables and thus sea raiders. a wonderful combo.

I took the town south east in the first few turns so i could get some income. I then made an allaince with everyone i could find, then i started to build a small navy to help protect my ports from pirates. The town you all claimed southwest, that caused you a war with the WRE is very interesting. I simply watched it, the romans sent TWO armies which were BOTH beaten by the rebels. Then the frankk (my allies) thought they would have a crack at it, they failed.

so i decided that maybe if no one else can do it i should, so i built an army. i was one move from getting there. when another frank army (much larger) appeared. i choose to attack, stupidly i thought that if I had control of the town centre then i would own the city, however it still depends on who has the majority of the troops at the end of the day, and seeing as i killed 400 rebels with 200 men and had to help the franks beat off 120 rebels. I was rather annoyed.

naturally i left it for a few rounds and then cancelled my alliance and then took the town for myself. The romans never once lifted a finger against me, so i waited until their armies were out of the city just near there, and i the cancelled and then took it and sacked it. got 10000 out of it :D

i then took and sacked the capital of the lombards, however i have no garrison there and the town refuses to revolt :P. the lombards even asked for a cease fire. i plan on doing the same to the burgundians. it gains you alot of money, which u need to continue building your capital.

i am not sure if i will head from britian, it seems like to much bother at the moment. i plan on taking over the franks lands and hunting them down, i will not forgive them for taking my city!

about to get saxon hearths hope they are good! i will post more when i do more.. otherwise saxons are heaps of fun.

oh dont let the ai do your taxes! do em yourself!

[saxon_maik]

Just played my very first BI campaign. Since I'm German and from Lower Saxony the saxons seemed like the only choice.

I was headed for Campus Frisii to take that rebel province, but the WRE beat me to it. So I allied with them and stuck around the city - a little too close as it turns out. WRE attacked the rebels and I stupidly helped them take the city. Bummer! So I headed for Campus Chattii instead.

On the next turn, the WRE general in Campus Frisii changed sides and joined the WRE Rebels. Oh what fun!

I turned my army around and besieged the city immediately, before the WRE could send a punishment expedition to recapture the city. I took the city and did not have to go to war with WRE so early. I saved that for a few turns later, after having beaten the Franks to Campus Chattii.

This was a M/M campaign to try out BI. Battles are way more fun now that spears can actually hold off or break cavalry. Now I'm trying again on H/M to get a general with enough command stars to get the nightfighter trait. Though that seems like it's almost impossible... Grrr!!!

[PseRamesses]

Just played my very first BI campaign. I was headed for Campus Frisii to take that rebel province, but the WRE beat me to it. So I allied with them and stuck around the city - a little too close as it turns out. WRE attacked the rebels and I stupidly helped them take the city. Bummer!!!!

Welcome to the forum SM!
Let me point out that when you´re allied with someone that are besiging a settlement you can also besiege the same town. It will then belong to the one who assaults it. I your case it might have bee possible for you to snatch the town from them even with an inferior force.
If you jointly are laying siege to a settlement and you attack. Open the gates then your ally will head for it. Stand back and let them do your fighting. If you´re lucky they will win the siege and you will have gained a settlement without the cost of your soldiers lives. Sorry if you already knew this but reading your post I got the feeling that you didn´t.

[Haudegen]

Hi

I want to add an observation to this:
If you are assaulting a town together with an ally, it is important that one of your units is in the towncenter at the time when the 3-minute-countdown begins. So it is possible to "steal" the town from your ally, even if he has more soldiers than you in that battle.

In the case, that you AND your ally have troops in the towncenter, while the last opponent there is killed, it is important that you have more men on the towncenter-square at this moment.

So in my opinion it does not matter who initiated the assault, but who finishes it.

Note: It has been a while ago, since I have been in such a situation, so maybe my memories are nor quite accurate.

PS: Greetings to saxon_maik, my neighbour from lower saxony
I´m right here in "the friendly city in the Teutoburg Forest" if you know what I mean

Bastard Operator

[saxon_maik]

I was aware of the fact that sieges with allies get you into the fight if the allies attack. My wife and I played RTW frequently (too much?) since February, but we were never able to snitch a city away from an ally once the battle started. So I didn't think it was possible.

As a matter of fact, I often besieged cities with allies in RTW 1.2. Almost always the allied army would move on after a turn or two and leave me as the lone attacker (no save/reload bug exploitation). A good example would be playing as the Brutii and attacking Syracuse with Scipii allies or laying siege to one of the Greek Cities as the Macedonians with Brutii support.

Fortunately that WRE general wasn't very loyal...

Bastard Operator: This neighbor now lives in the US, but was born and raised in Hildesheim.

Hi

I want to add an observation to this:
If you are assaulting a town together with an ally, it is important that one of your units is in the towncenter at the time when the 3-minute-countdown begins. So it is possible to "steal" the town from your ally, even if he has more soldiers than you in that battle.

In the case, that you AND your ally have troops in the towncenter, while the last opponent there is killed, it is important that you have more men on the towncenter-square at this moment.

So in my opinion it does not matter who initiated the assault, but who finishes it.

Note: It has been a while ago, since I have been in such a situation, so maybe my memories are nor quite accurate.

PS: Greetings to saxon_maik, my neighbour from lower saxony
I´m right here in "the friendly city in the Teutoburg Forest" if you know what I mean

Bastard Operator

[PseRamesses]

Hi
I want to add an observation to this:
If you are assaulting a town together with an ally, it is important that one of your units is in the towncenter at the time when the 3-minute-countdown begins. So it is possible to "steal" the town from your ally, even if he has more soldiers than you in that battle.
In the case, that you AND your ally have troops in the towncenter, while the last opponent there is killed, it is important that you have more men on the towncenter-square at this moment.
So in my opinion it does not matter who initiated the assault, but who finishes it. Bastard Operator

@Saxon Maik & Bastard Operator,
Unless some new rules have been implemented in BI you don´t even have to be in the townsquare when the enemy routs or the last one gets killed. The settlement will fall to the faction that starts the assault! I´ve snatched cities from allies many times even though they had started the siege. Using just 2-4inf. units to manovre ladders or towers. Just enough to open the gates and let your allies in for the fight. I can actually move all my troops outside the settlement and have a BBQ and watch them fight for me, he he! Again, the key is who assaults first, nothing else matters.

[saxon_maik]

@Saxon Maik & Bastard Operator,
Unless some new rules have been implemented in BI you don´t even have to be in the townsquare when the enemy routs or the last one gets killed. The settlement will fall to the faction that starts the assault! I´ve snatched cities from allies many times even though they had started the siege. Using just 2-4inf. units to manovre ladders or towers. Just enough to open the gates and let your allies in for the fight. I can actually move all my troops outside the settlement and have a BBQ and watch them fight for me, he he! Again, the key is who assaults first, nothing else matters.

I'm inclined to believe this. When I assaulted Campus Chattii a few turns later my Burgundii allies joined the fray. They had a general and two units of heavy cavaly and made short work of the rebel garrison. They killed the majority of enemies AND had more troops on the town square, but I initiated the attack. Yet I still got the city. Mystery solved.

Lesson learned: have ally, open gates, then sit back and enjoy the show, thus conserving my troops.

Without ally: tough luck.

[McDoogle]

Bastard Operator, You can now planliy see that myself and many other people have proven you wrong.

I am glad we now understand, i am happy to know i can make them do it for me! i was very [hacked] off..

EDIT: Mind your language, please. The Org aims to keep to a PG rating for such things.

[RBeschizza]

I'm in the middle of a great game with the Saxons. I'm playing on hard/hard and forcing myself to suck it up when things go awry.

I had a storming first few turns, taking the nearby rebel camps and sweeping through the WRE's British possessions, wiping out the Romano-British a turn after they appeared!

I thought I had it made, that it was just a matter of consolidating. Then, within a couple of turns, almost everyone turned against me: the Burgundians attacked in the east, the Franks from the south, and the Celts came barging south with a full stack containing those annoying berserkers.

Every city except home under siege with near-full stacks! I found myself being slowly crushed -- I'd win a battle, then lose a battle, win and lose ... And decided to throw everything I had into building a single full-sized army with good units.

So, I lost all of Britain to the Celts, and everything else for that matter, and was reduced to the home city. But, I had an army in it comprising mainly of Heath Soldiers, Noble Cavalry, Axe heavies and so on.

Another ten years later, I have to deal with a different annoyance: why won't my general, after a twenty victories and capturing five cities, get more than 1 command star? :-)

[The Stranger]

someone cares to the BI factions tactics in my Tactics guide in the colloseum.

[teja]

someone cares to the BI factions tactics in my Tactics guide in the colloseum.

Junior members as I am are not allowed to post there. It's impossible for me to come to a point when not allowed to comment. That's why I am in this part of the forum only.
It would have been great if you had post the link to your thread here, but ty for the info.

[McDoogle]

Stranger that really made no sense!

Why post in other forums if anyone wants to post in your forums. Sorry mate but we are here for a reason.

Anyways, there is on one of those split screen things while loading etc, a group of men in HORNED HELMETS with axes and shields destroying a villiage.

I have search through the custom battle thing and havnt been able to find these units. Does anyone have any ideas as to who they are and who they belong to?

[YAKOBU]

Hi everyone

Just a quick update, on my 3rd attempt I eventually succeeded.

As usual I allied with as many other barbarians as possible and got trade rights where able. I took the 2 close rebel settlements and in 368AD my leader set off to Rome with 3 levy spears, 1 saxon keel, 3 hunters, 2 saxon sea raiders and 3 mercenaries. Along the way he exterminated and pillaged all the WRE settlements. After 6 years he had exterminated and pillaged the last settlement at the foot of Italy and died in his sleep. The treasury after all this stood at £95,696 and the remainder of his army was disbanded. Then I expanded outwards from my capital and took a further 5 settlements. Building up these settlements quickly whittled away my finances and I found it difficult to keep many troops in the field. I then sent what troops I could afford over to take Londinium and the rest of the British Isles. I think Londinium potentially makes or breaks the Saxon campaign. With this settlement added I was going from breaking even to thousands of profit every turn. Once I had built up another couple of armies I re-took Italy and a couple of other settlements to get the 18 needed for victory.

This game was played on M/M and I didn't use peasants or exchange trade etc for cash. These are standard rules for me which make the game slightly harder.

My summary is brief and I did lose settlements along the way both to the hordes and the romans. My alliances with the barbarians stayed strong throughout the game. My last years were spent auto-resolving battles to speed up the finish and I felt I lost more troops than I would have otherwise lost.

I think now I will start a ERE campaign with a few more iron-man rules.

[McDoogle]

When is the finishing year in the game?

So i know how long i can enjoy my empire..

[Al: Total Gore]

When is the finishing year in the game?

So i know how long i can enjoy my empire..

476.

there is on one of those split screen things while loading etc, a group of men in HORNED HELMETS with axes and shields destroying a villiage.

I have search through the custom battle thing and havnt been able to find these units. Does anyone have any ideas as to who they are and who they belong to?

I'm no mod but I don't think you should be asking these kinds of questions in the guide threads. These threads are for offering advice on how to play the game using certain factions.

[eire1130]

Well, I have to say this game on hard/hard is far more difficult then vanilla Rome.

I'm currently on my third run playing the Saxons and I think I need to start over. So far, it is border line frustratingly difficult beyond the point of reason and a difficult challenge that is fun. I like a good puzzle that needs to be figured out, however I do not like a specific set of circumstances that needs to be achieved and if you follow it, you will win every time. I haven't decided which this fits in, but the more I play the more I am beginning to think it is the later instead of the former.

In my most recent game, I took London and left Ebicuram alone. If you do this, the Romans will send an assassin every turn to London. Further, if you decide to take London, it is such a cash cow that if anything happens to this settlement you will be going into the red soon. My decision for leaving the Romans alone at the time was that I needed most of my troops to fend off a Frankish attack from the south, to acquire their territory, and to fend off to moving hordes from the east (Slavs and Huns) which happened around ten and twenty respective turns after the Franks attacked. I did not want to tie up a lot of troops fighting off the Romano British, being that they are a formidable foe (gold shields, silver swords) and I did not want to open yet another border with the Celts whom I knew would attack within a few turns.

I still think this is a sound stratagem unless you intend to attack the Celts in the north immediately after defeating the Romano British. However, this would require an incrediblely large troop commitment in the early stages of the game leaving you vulnerable.

After the Slavs went rampaging I went and cleaned up some provinces along with the Sassanids and Brugundii. In retrospect, keeping an open border with the Sassanids is a major mistake if they have made it this far north. If this was to happen to me again I will probably hurriedly clean up the newly made rebel provinces and give them to another faction (the brugundii seem a likely candidate, the lombardii if they are still in existence, or the alamenii). The Franks seem eager to make war with the Saxons so aiding them is a bad strategy after they attack you. Another option would be to give one province to each of the hording armies. For example, if the slaves and Huns are both hording then give one province to each of them. Hopefully (and likely) they will fight amongst themselves for a while.

In two of my games the Vandals attacked the Romans in western France establishing a border with me. They never became hostile and seemed to concentrate their efforts on beating up Romans.

I think it might be a better strategy to go hostile against the Vandalls and secure one solid southern border all the way across all of Germany and France. Unfortunatly, London is such a cash cow you almost need this provence very soon in order to have any sort of positive cash revenue. The trouble with doing this, is the Franks will almost assurdly betray you forcing you into either a war of attrition or an flat out campaign against them tieing up yet more troops.

The key issue here seems to be in garisoning troops. In my game, I would often have wild leaps of popularity which could become nearly impossible to recover from (if at all) from small things like a one star three influance leader dieing, a spy in the provence, or just population growth. So, minimizing borders, watchtowers, accurate capital placement, and moral buildings seem to be the order of the day. Going for the cheap peasents as garrisoning troops seems to be a mistake, unfortunatly. The (rebels) seem to be coded to know if you are doing this and will attack in a few turns with a largish stack.

My next game strategy will probably be one single large rampaging army, after I take the two rebel provences to the south, which which will leave at best one unit in each provence and quickly neutrilize France and eliminate the Franks from the equation. From there, I will shore up my resources, form a solid border to the south with the Romans, form a new rampaging army of top units and send that army to Britain, kill the Romans, British, and Celts in > five turns and see how that goes.

[teja]

My next game strategy will probably be one single large rampaging army, after I take the two rebel provences to the south, which which will leave at best one unit in each provence and quickly neutrilize France and eliminate the Franks from the equation. From there, I will shore up my resources, form a solid border to the south with the Romans, form a new rampaging army of top units and send that army to Britain, kill the Romans, British, and Celts in > five turns and see how that goes.

I see your problems. Thanks for sharing it with us. But when killing the Franks, keep in mind that those are a fraction able to turn into a horde.

Strange, in most of my games whe AI-Saxons try to conquer all coastlines between the Baltic Sea and Spain

[Dagobert II]

Hey All;

I'm about halfway through on a H/H Saxon campaign, and I agree with
eire1130;

I think it might be a better strategy to go hostile against the Vandalls and secure one solid southern border all the way across all of Germany and France.

When they show up, ambush a couple of their stacks and eliminate their
nobles with Assassins, because in time, another faction in France will
attack you, so it better not be them. The Saxon tech tree will be worn
thin defending against their 5-6 stacks.

On the Franks; it's likely that they will attack their fellow barbarians first,
so if you secure your alliances with rival Germanic factions, you can attack
Vicus Franki in a (AHEM) retaliatory manner...

That will keep those buggers from Horde status, and Paladins away from
your Levies and Keels (no match IMHO)

[Upxl]

I was able to remain allied to the Franks.

When the Huns came they sacked their capital.
Leaving them two small "conquered" settlements on the east and south.
My entire army was standing by just on my side of the border.

As soon as the settlement revolted I captured it and fought the Huns from there.
This was all pretty easy since I had a stone wall and like 8 hunters to defend the city.

After the Huns pulled back to the east I finished of the Franks, who were now almost bled dry.

[Romulas]

I agree take both of the rebels cities if possible. WRE beat me to the one to the SW. Small defensive force to stay and defend my capital, I'm going to kick some Celt and WRE butt. First I ferry a force over near Londinium at the shortest point. Too many pirates to risk otherwise. My goal is to pick up my forces on the other side and land and seige Tara? (Ireland). I've found that the Celtic army at their northern city (?) will board the "one" boat they have to try and relieve the seige. Sink that one boat with you 4 or 5 you brought. Will take one or two attacks, but no more Celtic army. After you take out the Celts go and get Londinium for the money.

I'm currently using that money to build an army to take Eburacum and hopefully lay a ambush on the Romano-British. Various posts have told when and where to expect them as well as how strong they are. I'm hoping the ambush works, the loss of Londinium means no more money and not much of an army left to get any.

[Garvanko]

Hi

I want to add an observation to this:
If you are assaulting a town together with an ally, it is important that one of your units is in the towncenter at the time when the 3-minute-countdown begins. So it is possible to "steal" the town from your ally, even if he has more soldiers than you in that battle.

In the case, that you AND your ally have troops in the towncenter, while the last opponent there is killed, it is important that you have more men on the towncenter-square at this moment.

So in my opinion it does not matter who initiated the assault, but who finishes it.

This may be true, but it wouldn't work if the enemy sallied. This happened to me in my Saxon campaign. Rebels sallied against the Burgundii and my Saxon reinforcements - I took the city (hoping it would fall to me), even controlled the city square.

However, the city fell to the Burgundii.

On a side issue, ally yourself with all the barbarian factions and you'll secure your borders for most of the early to middle game. Then concentrate exclusively on the WRE.

[Garvanko]

Quick update on the Saxons.

Well, the hordes have pretty much wiped themselves out in and around Italy, except the Huns who settled in Camp Iazgnes (sp?). Im pounding the WRE so bad I feel sorry for them. Taken Sambroviva, Avaricum, Agrippona (?) and London. Ive decided not to go for Ebaracum just yet - the WRE garrison there consist of three units of comitatenses, but are not a threat and I don't want to get into a war just yet with any emergant Romano-Brits or the Celts. Im slowly building my forces there anyway and I'll probably attack once I get about 15 or 16 settlements - I need 18 to win.

Taking Avaricum has conveniently given me tech access to Chosen Axemen and Saxon Hearth Troops, so there's no need to rush the military buildup anywhere else.

To be honest, playing on H/H, and its been dead easy for a while. The WRE hasn't attacked the Franks (my allies), so there's no threat of any hording from them - and if WRE do decide to attack them, I've got a full stack at the city above waiting to help them out.

Its going swimmingly so far. Just have to push on through Western Europe and south towards Spain. My armies are still mainly Saxon Keels, Spearmen and hunters and sea raiders. Avaricum should bolster that, of course.

One a side note: Made a big error when trying to take Avaricum - I seiged it, then made a deal with the WRE for a ceasefire and trade in exchange for Avaricum. Surprisingly they agreed, and the settlement fell to me. Unfortunately it was overpopulated - 29000 people who revolted next turn and I had to deal with a full stack of silver comitatenses and plumatarii. I seiged it again, and just waited it out while I sent another stack to reinforce. Took the city again after a long battle, and this time, exterminated. It wasted a few turns and did make a dent in my finances for a while.

[stabularasa]

1st attempt: I played on H/VH to 476 AD. I had 15 provinces and was at a standoff with the massive Eastern Roman Empire. I would've quit and restarted sooner but I was having the most epic battles at least every second turn, full stack against full stack, fully upgraded troops. I had a complicated retraining cycle going throughout central Europe across 7 settlements.

2nd attempt: playing on VH/VH

You start with 2 generals.

1st turn imperative:
1) Send your faction heir to Campus Frisii with his army, recruit the light cavalry and spearmen mercenaries that will be available in that province and lay siege, build a ram.
2) Disband all your boats and your peasants
3) Send your faction leader to Campus Chatii with all the rest of your army (he should get halfway)
4) Train Levy spearmen at Vicus Saxones
5) Dismantle the pagan shrine at Vicus Saxones and build a Shrine to Wotan
Then send your spy toward Frisii (he will go spend time near the Roman town immediately SW of Frisii)
Send your diplomat SW to sell trade rights, alliances, and map info to EVERYONE you meet.

End first turn, you will be attacked at Frisii, you have to win the battle and then attack the settlement in the next turn and begin building it up immediately.

Thereafter
You have two SERIOUS enemies, namely the Romans and the Hordes

You can make alliances with the Western Roman Empire and the Eastern Romans but the west will try to take Campus Frisii from you very early unless you keep at least half a stack there. To beat the Western Romans you have to train a few spies and place them near their settlements, wait until you see a settlement that has no army then attack it with all haste.

To beat the hordes you have to have a good strength in all your settlements so that if one of them is attacked you can train up reserves nearby. Diplomacy should be used whenever possible.
In my games playing as the Saxons the Burgundii behaved quite strangely. I was allied with them, but took their capital anyway. As they only had the one settlement they turned into a horde, I immediately offered them a ceasefire and they took it. Then I sold them an Alliance! The horde moved right past Campus Chattii and sacked the Frankish capital, three times, then I moved back north again and I gifted them military access, they moved right through my territory and onto the Western Roman Empire.

A while after I took Londinium the Romano-British emerged but they mostly bothered the Celts, so I had no problems taking them all out whenever I felt like it. The Ostrogoths however caused me a MASSIVE problem. They pop up in the middle of the Western Roman Empire, an Empire that I was currently lording over. They attacked a Hunnish settlement and caused the Huns to Horde, so after I had faced and just barely defeated the Ostrogoths the Huns came looking for a fight. Keep reserves wherever there are hordes. If you find a horde have one of your spies travel along with it until they find a new homeland.

Your generals don't make the best governors. It's best not to keep them in a settlement for too long because they end up 'axebitten', which leads to being a 'shieldbiter', and eventually 'beserker'. These traits negatively affect the morale of their troops. If you have a good candidate for faction heir then send him running around building watchtowers and fighting little rebel armies rather than holed up in a settlement.

The population of Vicus Saxones stabilises at around 18,000 - 19,000. You'll need to import peasants to get it up to 24,000 so you can upgrade and build Palatine barracks. Sacred grove of Wotan + Palatine barracks + Foundry = pretty decent Saxon Hearth Troops right off the assembly line.

If you're taking on a full Roman stack of 1st cohorts and spears you'll need 4 or 5 units of archers, 2 units of generals, and all the rest Saxon Hearth Troops. Saxon cavalry are expensive and they die too easily, it's best not to use them at all, you should have enough generals to use as cavalry if you look after your guys well enough.

Fighting against Rome, your archers are useless unless you can use them very sneakily. Run at the Roman troops who are usually heavily armoured. Your arrows won't do anything to them. They'll start running at you, they want to kill you with pila. Run away! They see you running away, they'll turn around and get back in formation, then immediately fire at them, hitting them in the back. When your infantry have engaged the Romans send your archers to flanking positions but don't get too far ahead or they'll end up mush.

If you like to use levy spearmen they can be devastating as front line troops if you set them to fire at will.

The rest is pretty much up to you. South or SouthEast, how do you want your 18 settlements? SouthEast is fun, but difficult.

If anyone plays as the Saxons on VH/VH and they manage to take Constaninople before 476 AD then you have my kudos.

[Zorn]

Just one small remark: The spearmen are, allthough your most basic unit, also your best.
Let me explain.

First, they are basic. That means you can retrain them everywhere, wile ist is a pain to retrain heart troops or axemen.

Also, they get experience bonus if trained in a city with better barracks. If you have top-level-barracks, they come with silver chevrons.
Also, their weapons count as ranged, so they benefit from Ull-temples.
If you build your city right, you can train troops that come vith silver chevrons and golden weaopons right out the barrack.
That makes them very tough in close combat, but their pila-volleys are just devasting.
I´ve seen two of these units wipe units of spears in sieges before they could even reach the walls, or break enemy units with two salvoes befor they could even reach the line.

If you play Saxons, use these guys, they rock.
(The keel however isn`t worth anything)

[Mithras]

I'll discuss my opinions in Saxon military experience since I've noticed most of these guides focus on Saxon overall strategy rather than how they function in war, I'll probably comments on some other observations as well.


The Saxon war machine by Mithras:

Overview
The defining aspect of the Saxon military is their infantry for the Saxons the infantry are the be all and end all, all other units should be seen as an extension of this, they do have access to Calvary and tactical infantry. But as I’ve already stated, these are best used to support the infantry rather than as an independent arm of the military-simply put their not well enough to function without the main fighting arm. As an army their fairly simple to use, forgiving of mistakes and straightforward style of fighting make them a good choice for a beginner, (especially since they avoid the issues of religion or loyalty). And they fight well in forests. Their shrines all boost troop skills in one way or another so ideally try to retrain them under a different shrine to the one they were trained in.

Weaknesses: as with most barbarian factions they have no artillery-making siege battles frustrating. Their cavalry and archers are minimal making an over reliance on heavy infantry inevitable. Making the army vulruble to more maneuverable armies and thrice damned horse archers

Recommended for:
For anybody who likes the Saxons and Vikings in Viking invasion I'd recommend playing these blokes, as the experience is very similar. As an army their fairly simple to use, forgiving of mistakes and straightforward style of fighting make them a good choice for a beginner (especially since they avoid the issues of religion or loyalty). They’re also the barbarian faction for those who like prefer static heavy infantry battles.

Units

Peasants- Not very useful ideally used for arrow fodder, sappers or as a moral booster by standing behind the main army...but then again why not simply take another unit of axemen instead? The only real use for them I can find is keeping populations in control through numbers, when a city is threatened disband and train something which can actually fight. I wouldn't even recommend sending them as cannon fodder since the enemy can carve them for experience . They probably do better in forests but then again so do axemen and hearth troops.

Levy Spearmen-the first real unit you get rather than just axe food. A solid unit of spearmen who won't perform miracles but won't simply stand there and die. They’re best used against peasants and similar low level scum were their ability to throw spears will give them a nice booster in battle. They also make good line holder while you send the real men out to fight they can also be used to engage light Calvary. However in over fighting ability I would recommend upgrading to Keels at the earliest possible opportunity. In later stages they're best used to support a governor when he rides out to break up small bandit armies


Keels

The Saxon frydmen...err sorry wrong game. The Keels are good solid spear unit and will probably make up the numbers in your armies in most of the battles in the game. Most cities would be able to produce them and they're pretty good in a fight. They can be used at a pinch early on to attack low-tech enemy units. But their real strength is as a defense unit. Their shield wall will hold against most head on assaults and they’re a good flank anti cavalry unit. These lads make good usage as a general workhorse and when combined with the hearth troops and axemen become a meaty proposition.

Axemen-This is where the fun begins . Think of these lads, as a meat grinder for the enemy and you can't go far wrong. They’re best used in full on assaults where their berserk can be used to smash through the enemy infantry and grind through anything, which can put up a fight. When supported by hearth troops they change from meat grinder to buzz saw. They're also pretty good at sieges were they can be relied on to hold/attack walls with a great deal of success allowing the shieldwall hearth troops and the keels to fight in the gates and streets. They're also the ideal choice for unexpected attacks on your cities where a single unit can make all the difference.

Hearth Troops
These with the axemen are what make the Saxons such an awesome army for the infantryman the two words to describe these troops are reliable and flexible. The hearths troops can form shield wall and be used to defend or they can break wall and attack competently. Their very good warriors so can be relied on to pull through against most units even if outnumbered. The only weakness I can observe is the two turn waiting time, which causes problems if they're needed yesterday.


Hunters
Very little to say about these. They're bog-standard archers however they’re also the only ones you have. They perform reasonably well. They do however have a religious shrine upgrade allowing them to become slightly less mediocre. Since their the only ones you have they'll be fulfilling all the jobs archers do such as defending walls and supporting fire. The best use for them I found was killing those bloody horse archers, which my lovely troops had no real change of catching.

Sea Raiders
Light cavalry. Use them to plug holes in the line, flank attacks and to chase routing enemies and if possible, catch horse archers. As I've already said Saxon cavarly is there to support its infantry rather to win the same


Mounted Nobles
Mediumish cavalry. Use them to plug holes in the line quickly chase routing enemies and if possible, catch horse archers. They can also be used to engage medium infantry if the terms are favorable and are devastating in flank attacks

Warlord
The general. A good heavy Calvary unit and you only one you have. He is however the general so don't send him out like a regular unit. Use him to boost moral, hunt down the big routs and as a line filler. Try to get him into an easy to win fight in all battles as it builds character and if your desperate or if his personality sucks and you want him dead he be relied on in 'meatier' punch ups to hold his own.



Mercenary units:

Top of you shopping list should be siege machines grab any you can find! Try to hold regions where theirs an ample supply of them. You should also look out fro graal knights: a super heavy cavalry unit, which can chew through enemies like a fat man through cake. 2-3 units can change the dynamics of your army allowing for heavy cavalry tactics combined with heavy infantry tactics (until the losses build up).




Enemies
These observations are based on what I encountered on campaign so don't expect any sassasids to show up. The commentaries are based on what you’ll usually face rather than overall military ability.

Western Romans/rebels
The ideal target for the Saxons (and everyone else) these poor buggers have a mixture of scum backed up by cannon fodder. You'll usually find yourself facing a spear throwing version of the town watch and some auxiliary units of cavalry and spearmen with some mediocre archers to back them up as well as some juicy peasants to provide experience for your men. These don't present much of a challenge and can be picked apart by engaging them in an infantry assault. However if there is a mithratic temple nearby you may find them being experienced and may put up more of a fight. If they hold their ground for long enough you may start seeing better units in the field usually the Sarmatian Auxilia
and Comitatenses
. The Sarmatian Auxilia are a respectable medium cavalry unit and should be treated cautiously engage them with spearmen or in forests if possible, try to avoid fighting them with your own cavalry as they tend to loose. The Comitatenses are not as good as their predecessors but still not a bad unit. They perform reasonable well in the field and can hold there own against your men (especially after a Mithras training boost). Fortunately they’re usually watered down by their usual lack of numbers. Engage them with chosen axemen or hearth troops after whittling them down with arrow fire. I never encountered anything harder under the Romans but towards the end I did notice that after they withdrew to Spain their military was gradually becoming more formidable. More legionnaires and less auxiliaries: all boosted by an awesome mithras temple and priests in an ironic and deadly mix (if encountering priests shoot them to pieces with your archers and try to flank them with any cavalry you have).

Eastern Roman Empire
I only encountered them once so I can only really comment that you should treat them like the Western Empire but with more cavalry


Romano British:
This is where things get ugly, if several stacks popping up wasn't distressing the fact that their packed full of battle experienced elite soldiers should make you need a fresh change of underwear. This is what the Romans could be given time: lots of legionnaires meaning that your going to have to engage them seriously in brutal infantry fights backed up by monks (shoot them) Samarian cavalry and graal knight avoid the graal knights until you have no choice try to engage them in forest with Keels shieldwalls after whittling them down with arrow fire. make sure you have your best army in Britain when you take the cities after some heavy casualties their capacity to fight should be severely weakened leaving you ready for the kill...

Celts
The Celts are an odd lot. Their units look quite nasty on paper and they remind me of the original game gauls crossed with Britons. However they have laugthibly low moral and will run if put under pressure. Their kerns are good solid troops that will go toe to toe with your men however; their spearmen will crumble and run. Watch out for the berserkers these nutters will punch a whole in any unit they fight send in your best after heavy missile fire. Kill their general and they will run. Hit them in the flanks and they will run. Kill the druids and they will run, wear a mask with Magret Thatcher's face on and they will run. You may want to get some extra cavalry to run them down when they run...they only usually have enough cash for one stack then they're done so one good battle will see them crushed.

The Slavs.
These gits will pop up in horde in the east. A mix of troops (chosen swordsmen fight like inferior hearth troops) combined with various quasi nomad and barbarian units. Your best bet is to fortify the eastern lands muster several well trained garrisons and watch them batter against your walls, wearing themselves down while using a large army to retake any cities they overrun.

The Hun and the Sarmatians

My least favorite enemy their forces are made of lots of cavalry and horse archers. Your army is heavy infantry this means the battle will involve them trying to force you to break formation or outflank you. Hold the line use your archers to shoot their wait for them to run out of ammo and then make them suffer for the frustrating twenty minutes of watching your chosen axe men stand their and die when they charge.....

Other barbarian nations
I had surprisingly little conflict with these guys they wore themselves out in wars against Rome and each other. The only ones I engaged were the Lombard's who's superior archers means you should close the groups as quickly as possible and watch of for their chosen axemen!



Saxon Tips:

-Whenever you take a Christian settlement trash exterminates the populace and trash the churches. Your faction is 100% pagan you won't ever have Christian leader or buildings so the churches will be endless source of unrest and negative personality traits for your faction. If anyone is squeamish about this consider that the Christians of this era tore one the of great mathematicians of history (who was also an unarmed woman) apart on the way to lectures on the grounds of her not being a Christian.

-Keep any stonking Mithras shrines you find- the experience bonus combined with law bonus is worth it.

-Keep a large navy in the North Sea at all times-trained at a Woden shrine city for experience.

-Watch out for the Slavs and the Romano British-they appear from nowhere!

-try to stay on good terms with the eastern empire.

-...and with eastern factions in general.

-try to command battles with small hordes yourself , the AI will seldom eliminate them all which is what your aiming for.