Ran No Jidai:(Mod for RTW) Screenshots

[Y0JIMB0]

and can cut a man in half with one blow

not only one man, i read in the "Hagakure" how really good Katanas
(made by great swordsmiths) were tested.
They stack dead bodys and the book says that the best ones can cut up to SEVEN man in half in one blow.
That would no european sword have managed. But I think It was not the Katana alone that would them make superior in an one on one fight with a european Knight, the light but effectiv armor and especially the way of handling the Katana was it.
And the Katana have not to cut a car, only to cut the knights armor,
think (except a late Plateharnish) that would be no prob for them.

[antisocialmunky]

Katanas couldn't cut through tempered steel. Else they would chop through each other. As for cutting a man in two, European swords weren't designed for dealing with cutting. They were more or less sharp beatsticks due to the armour they had. They were used for disorienting the enemy by attacking their helmet, knocking them back, using them as levers, etc. Besides... why would you bother cutting your opponent in half, that requires considerable skill and the Katana might break or lodge on the spine.

[Kagemusha]

Actually Antisocial some swordsmiths actually tested Katanas on criminals.They tied the men together and tested how well the katana cut through the flesh and bone.No spine bone would chip the katana blade. I agree that katana would not have been an good choice of weapon against plate armor,but what sword would have?

[antisocialmunky]

Well, the last sentence of that refered to battlefiend situations. While criminals were tested on, it would take considerable skill to cleanly cut a man in half with a katana due to the thickness of the bone in the lower spinal column where the cuts would occur. I was probably exaggerating with the chipping part though, I will admit that.

There are the stories of prisoners swallowing stones to damage katanas on the way through.

[don776]

how is mod progressing, will it be released this year or next?

[Kagemusha]

how is mod progressing, will it be released this year or next?

Im confident that it will be out this year.I hope infact that the release will be early spring.

[Expositus]

Hello everyone. Just found out about this mod. I'm a long time player of the Total War series and shogun is by far my fav. from culture to time period. I myself am working on a Civilization IV mod of this exact era and absolutely can't wait to get my hands on Ran no Jidai!

The images I've seen so far in the forums are spectacular. The map the models the skins, everything.

I hope work is progressing and the project is doing well.

Expositus

[Dutch_guy]

Well, I've been following this mod for quite some time - maybe even since the start, not that anyone noticed me, lurking these sub forums mostly

And well, it keeps on getting better I'll definatly get it once you release so much as a beta

Good luck Kagemusha,antisocialmunky and the rest of the team.

I'm keeping my hopes high for the spring release date !

[Kagemusha]

Thanks for the support Dutch guy and Expositus!

[Ulv]

their Katana's, and Wakizashi's were Strong, Light, and Sharp whereas European swords of the period were heavy, brittle, and dull.

this might be a bit offtopic indeed, but while waiting for this mod (which looks great btw, i really cant wait! i've been hoping that someone would make mods from stw and mtw using the excellent rtw engine and features) we might as well flog this horses carcass.

it is indeed a dead horse to kick. variations of the "samurai vs european knight" or "katana pwns all euro swords" discussions pop up every now and then on Sword Forum International and other sword-related forums i hang out in, and the conclusion has always been that it is impossible to argue that one sword or another was superior to any other. i would not argue that the european swords were better than the japanese or other oriental weapons, but when i see these misconceptions about japanese swords and european swords, i feel my fingers itch. so here goes.

your generalisation of european swords as "heavy, brittle, and dull" is completely unfounded, but still a popular misconception so you'll find people who agree with you, all hyped on hollywood and popular myth.

the discussion of wether european swords were heavy or not, depends on how you define heavy and what you compare it with. finds of european swords now stored in the Royal Armouries Collection, the Wallace Collection and the Stibbert Museum in Florence show single handers weighing from 750g-1100g being very common in the 14th C and into the late 15th C. having handled (and owning) several replicas in this weight range, i can testify that their balance makes them anything but heavy to the hand.
hand and half swords werent common untill the late 15th C, and the above mentioned collections have samples of these too, weighting between 800g and 1400g, with the majority weighing less than 1200g.

remember that while the katana is a two-handed sword, it is significantly shorter than the european hand-and-half, being of about the same lenght as a european single hander (not rapier).

dr. Dawson, who cites these statistics in his article "a club with an edge?" from MHM vol 2 no 3, concludes that "From these examples it can be seen that the idea that medieval and Renaissance swords were heavy, clumsy objects is far from true. Single-handed swords could be very light, and even the heaviest two-hander was amendable to dexterous use. And the evidence is clear that even quite early in the period there were sophisticated techniques available to best employ such finely made tools..."

that they were brittle is even more a ridiculous claim than the one regarding their weight. european blacksmiths had by this time discovered better ways of making steel with higher carbon values, making it much stronger than the old type of steel that japanese blacksmiths were still working in the sengoku period. while i am no blacksmith, i know that blacksmiths have taken this claim apart and jumped on the pieces several times in SFI. use their search engine, you'll find it :) these guys are experts, making a living of understanding and making european swords of high quality for WMA and reenactors for decades.

how you think to justify the claim that they were "dull" i cannot even begin to imagine. i do not know of any textual sources on which such a claim can be based. all the manuals and information we have on how european swords, single hand or longsword, were used (Talhoffer, Ringeck, I.33, Fiore, etc) suggests that these weapons were sharp and could cut.

i seriously cannot begin to guess where you find the basis for claiming that european swords were dull. please explain how you reached this conclusion :)

(aka if the Samurai were in Medieval total war, they would kick the ass of any unit in the game)

that would entirely depend on the ideas and supersticions of the people making the stats ;)

[antisocialmunky]

Eh... If you're going to quote from a source.. as I've read this document, PLEASE cite the link. Otherwise, you're stealing his words.

[Ulv]

Eh... If you're going to quote from a source.. as I've read this document, PLEASE cite the link. Otherwise, you're stealing his words.

i am assuming you're referring to my quotation of dr. Timothy Dawson in the above post.
seing as how the article is not from a website but a magazine, it would be hard to cite a link. as far as i know, the article is not available on the internet, but was written especially for Medieval History Magazine. it was published, like i stated in the above post, in MHM volume 2 number 3, 2004. (ISSN 1741-2285)

having stated my source and the author as clearly as i did in this quote, i can hardly believe it could be considered plageurism or any other form of "stealing words".

[Ulv]

hmm.. how does one edit posts in these forums?

anyway after writing the previous reply i got curious as to wether someone had published the article online. turns out that the Journal of Western Martial Art got permission from the author to publish the article digitally. it can be found in full, with images and stats, at the following URL: http://www.ejmas.com/jwma/articles/2...awson_0205.htm - a recommended read for everyone interested in swordsmanship or medieval weaponry.

[Kraxis]

Unfortunately you can't edit YET.

With time you can.

Anyway, I think you have stumbled onto the most extreme post here, and I must point out that it is not the view of the Mod in general.

Indeed could and did, katanas, wakizashis and no-dachis break in combat. It was not even uncommon. Japanese iron was of relatively bad quality and it has been theorized that the advent of the special layering in Japanese sword might come from a way to deal with this problem. A successful way I must point out.
But eventhough they did this they were still forced to make the swords (I'm not going to name each sword every time) quite thick, and in general they were quite a bit thicker than their European counterparts, and of course heavier. Perhaps that it is the reason for the twohanded style for a fairly short sword (another theory)?
This thickness caused another problem. As you know they were generally supposed to draw-cut their victims (wakizashis were interestingly used more for stabbing but were capable enough for cutting), but a thick blade tends to get stuck because of the resistance when the angle of attack is anything but perfect. Again the Japanese swordsmiths proved up to the task and made the tapering quite special too, by giving it a crosssection like a gunshell (you know straight sides until it slowly turn inwards more and more pronounced). That way the cut could be done more extreme angles and still retain the good cutting properties and most importantly not getting stuck.
You can tell if an old katana has been polished by an amateur if it doesn't have this bend to the tapering.

Today, with modern steel there is no need for either the thick blade or the special tapering. In fact the tapering today is not only straight but also much taller.

[Ulv]

oh i see.. silly thing since i needed the function now, but then you'll just have to forgive my doublepost :)

i did not assume that the opinion expressed about the differences between european and japanese arms and armour was representative for the creators of this mod. after reading this forum and especially this thread i can only say i am impressed and incredibly pleased with the effort being made to make the mod historically accurate and realistic, with as much basis in actual history as possible. bravo and well done! i am especially pleased to see the hollywood-style ninja unit from STW disappear to be replaced with the generally accepted shinobi unit. those ninja cutscenes in STW always made me itch :S

as for your theories on the japanese swords, they are interesting. but i am not convinced that weight was the decisive matter that made japanese swordsmanship predominantly two-hand-based. there are some, if not many, kata in most (if not all) branches of iaido where decisive cuts and thrusts are made with only one hand. that said, most of these use both hands, at least in the actual completion of the cut. then again, that might be due to having one hand free - you'd rather cut with two hands than with one, if the other hand isnt doing much anyway. now i'll have to ask some local sensei about their thoughts on this subject too... *sigh* ;)

[Kraxis]

I'm talking about the 900-1050 AD period when the first curved swords appeared in the form they would retain for so long (though with the added interesting feature of being double-edged for the first few inches). Some even say that the Emmishi were the ones to introduce the sword to the Japanese... But that is another discussion.

Anyway, Miyamoto Musashi was one fighter who liked using onehanded styles (he was pretty much forced to because of his idea of using two swords), but before him it seems to have been rather unusual, and here we are talking 1600. Of course you are, as Musashi so clearly states, quite confined with the twohanded style in that you can cover your flanks very well and your reach is less. So a few cuts with a single hand is not stupid or even bad, it would give a tactical advantage.
But that does not make the sword practical for onehanded use. Musashi was big and strong, but most others would not have the strength needed to use the swords effectively in one hand for longer periods of time (and use them in the proper fashion, not just chopping with them).

[beauchamp]

Regardless of how powerful samurai swords are, Nothing can beat an original Damascene blade. The probelem with the katana is that it was totally massed produced, every samurai had one. Now, im not saying that they are anything short of amazing. Im just saying, that in comparison to the artwork and design of the early damascene swords, that they are two polar opposites......

we should probably stop this convorsation and get on with the mod...for christ sakes im playing EB while wating for Ran no Jidai

[beauchamp]

Aslo Kraxis,
Minamoto obtained that style from Portugese sailors who would fight ala swashbukle with good old cutlasses.

[Kraxis]

Aslo Kraxis,
Minamoto obtained that style from Portugese sailors who would fight ala swashbukle with good old cutlasses.

Didn't know that... cool!

But beau, while damascene swords were superb, they were the top of the line. Of course they woul be better than any run-of-the-mill katana or tachi, but in Japan they also had elite swordsmiths that only made a limited number of swords. They would easily be as good as damascene swords. Like them they were the best there was to be had in Japan...

[antisocialmunky]

http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/hideyuki.html

[Kraxis]

Oh, that is one lovely sword... I would just wish they showed the grip next to it.

I wonder how much it would cost... Oh yeah, nothing since you can't buy them and can't bring them out of the country.

[antisocialmunky]

Its a big sword to fight with and actuall saw battle...

- But if you just want to see a big sword, here's the king of them all...
http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/norimitsu.html

[Kraxis]

Now that is a monster!
But it can hardly have been made for anything but bragging by the smith.

But this one:
http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/kashiwa.html
Is what seems to be the largest practical no-dachi... Well practical or not it has a small chip in it and several other marks of use (take a look at the point). So it looks like it has been used.

[beauchamp]

Thats pretty sick dude....that thing would be like a friggen yari. Speaking of which, will we have Nodachi units in this thing? they seem like they do alot of damage....

[antisocialmunky]

Yes, they'll probably be the best flanking infantry in the game and tire really quickly or so our idea goes with giant swords.

There's always the Japanese Zanbatous that were 7 - 8 feet long in total and pretty much impossibly to wield.

[Ulv]

release in early spring sounds great :D i can hardly wait...

as for the sword discussion, i would agree with Kraxis that your comparison falls on its own unreasonability. swords, and steel in general, from damascus were indeed famed for their quality and beauty. but they can hardly be representative for the blades of their general culture. you are, in other terms, comparing the IQ of one genius to the general IQ of a whole population, thus proving nothing else than that the genius is brighter than average. it is already known and accepted that damascene swords were above average.

however, when making such a comparison you should either generalise all swords of a culture, or take the high point of each. i am sure that there are master swordsmiths in japan that made blades far above the average standard of their time and culture, and these would surely be considered superior weapons to ordinary, run of the mill, european knightly swords.

as for the mass-produced argument, you make it sound like "every samurai" means "every japanese warrior". i am more of the impression that the samurai were a social, cultural and military elite class, much comparable to the european knights. i would assume that the majority of any feudal army of this time period would be peasant levies and non-professional warriors, as were the case in feudal europe. are anybody able to make an educated guess as to the ratio of samurai / peasant levies in armies of this period?

[beauchamp]

Think about it dude...Every samurai was designated a sword, two in fact, and even the yari levies were armed by swords. In Japan, specifically the sengoku era, their were family run swordsmakers and at least one at every castle. They would be brutally effective, beautiful and able to hold their ground as swords, but I think they lack the "magic" that the Damascene and Puld swords have.

Now, during the gepei wars, their was all kinds of superstition and swordsmakers were revered even more for their work. Especially, since their were not as many actuall "samurai" as in the sengoku.

[Ulv]

i am not arguing that damascene blades werent possibly of a higher quality than the common/average contemporary swords of japan, which is your point.

my point is that the comparison is highly irrelevant and that your conclusion isnt really useful. it is like saying that Einstein was smarter than the average French, or that a red Ferrari is a much better car than any blue car.

true, bladesmiths were probably common in japan. so were swords, and there was most certainly blades of varying quality being made. my point is that the same is true of europe and the middle east. swords were a common weapon amongst professional or well-equipped warriors. and among these warriors, the quality of blades did certainly vary. you think every warrior in the middle east, near east and southern europe owned a damascene blade? hardly, it was reserved for the richest, most important warriors, nobility and royalty.
the same thing is true of the japanese blades. some smiths were better than others, some regions made better blades than others, and the richest, noblest or most important warriors got the best blades.

my point is only that if you're to make a comparison, compare equivalents.

[beauchamp]

You got me there Ulv...I completey understand. We should probably stop using valuable Modding forum space for sword talk...

[PROMETHEUS]

A NEW SCREENSHOT FROM A WORK IN PROGRESS....