A desperate plea for help..

[Ayra]

With my standard Sarmatian, mainly-female army, I do quite well (Exact composition is buried somewhere in the 15kvs12.5k thread) no matter the game format. It's fun, and I limit the skirmishing to a minimum to make the game fun for everyone and not just me. I win the majority of my games, and those I lose I at least offered a decent challenge to my opponents, which is all good in my mind. Having a fun tight game is more interesting than utterly crushing the opponent.

Here's the problem: Lately, there's been more and more rules limiting the number of cavalry someone can take. Yesterday, most games I played were 6 max cav in fact. My standard army has 5 horse archers, 4 light cav and 3 heavy cav, twice the allowed number. So I can't take anything that remotely ressemble my favorite army type.

I try playing the Franks usually in those circumstances. And I fail horribly. Truly horribly. It's not even offering a good game to my opponent; it's a pure and simple slaughter. I realized that I can't play an infantry army at all. In regular RTW, I did alright with Pontus, Thrace, Macedon or even Briton in low denarii games with mainly infantry armies. Here, I can't do anything with any faction. I watch my armies being utterly beaten, with the only successes during the battle being my cavalry maneuvers, which aren't sufficient to change the tide.

And as I sit here thinking, there's no solutions that come to mind, frankly. Which is the reason of this post... 75% of the people I face in those games are Eastern Roman, and 20% saxons. Since artilery isn't allowed, and cavalry isn't really allowed, how do you fight Plumbatarii? They have Eastern Archers, which beat the regular archers the Franks have, so they have missile advantage. Cavalry is about similar. This leaves Herbans vs Plumbatarii. If you stay afard, you die to darts. If you close in, you still die due to Plumbatarii being stronger than the Herbans. Due to missile advantage, I'm forced to attack, due to low speed, it's mainly an attack head-on that's forced to fail due to inferior troops (That are same cost, though). Cavalry compensates a little, but not enough.

So what do I do? I can't see any maneuvring that would enable me to win in those circumstances, or at least not lose horribly. I can't see any allowed army composition that isn't roman or saxon that would succeed against the ERE. There's plenty of tactics and traps I can make with my standard army to win against an ERE army like that, different counters to what the opponent can do. Heck, I'm confident my infantry and archer line with my Sarmatian army can hold the enemy attacks and charges long enough. But as the Franks... Nothing.

So please... Advice is needed badly! No art, 6 max cav against ERE. Denarii amount is anywhere across the board (From 12.5k to 100k). And no, I don't want to play romans. Based on that... I'd love ANY advice you guys can give! I don't mind losing at all, but I do mind getting absolutely crushed without any sort of minor successes beside cavalry luring enemies, feinted attacks, light cavalry very short attacks against overcommited units and displacement of enemy lines... That's the only edge I have, and certainly not enough to win on those terms.

[Rodion Romanovich]

You can always play sassanids with 6 clibanarii, 12 foot archers and the rest either archers or infantry. It's unbeatable if artillery isn't allowed because if the enemy sends cavalry you have superior cavalrymen and can skirmish with the archers. If the send their infantry, you can skirmish your archers and keep your cavalry away. If they send both, you can skirmish your archers and wait until the enemy cavalry is far enough away from their infantry, and use your cavalry superiority. Once the enemy cavalry is down, you can just manouver your archers, spread them out, surround the enemy, anything you want, until they've run out of ammo. If the enemy splits up with their infantry to hunt some of your archers they'll be vulnerable to your cavalry. If they don't split up, your archers won't be in danger, and can continue their work until all enemy infantry is dead. If you can afford upgrades, give them to the cavalry, because the cavalry superiority is what the army is based on. Is that good enough? Frankly I can't think of any harder army to beat if artillery isn't allowed and denarii so low that you can't upgrade your infantry's armor etc.

[Dutch_guy]

offensive as the Franks is hard, but they should be able to put up a decent fight against the plumbatarii, just walk to the enemy line and just as you get into missle range, run and charge , you'll leave them in pilum stance so you're Fransica or sword heerbann's can do some killing.

WHen facing enemy cav. your in for a problem as the Franks, all their infantry will die like flies to a cav. charge, so bring some noble cav. yourself.

Since axes don't have an armor piercing capability , you should take the regular sword heerbann;;s and a couple of fransica's for their ranged attack, and melee damage.

Be sure to give experience to all your infantry units.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I've now refined the above army further. For rules being max 5 cav, 12.5k, no art:
1 clibinarii (general), 2 cataphracts, 2 armored camels, some 10 archers, the rest slingers. Works fine, but not when denarii are raised to 15k, and I don't know about lower denarii counts.

[Lord Preston]

all cav + archer armies???

I thought that had stopped months ago in RTW, now its back with BI? What a shame.

So making a player chase you around the field all night.... sounds fun (feel the sarcasm). Serves them right for being Rome and making rules to fit them.

[NihilisticCow]

Well I think all cav + archer armies don't really work in BI, just as they didn't really work in Rome. It assumes that you are playing an inexperienced player that lets their army get split up. That kind of army is rather boring to fight against with the endless skirmishing, but not too difficult to beat if you are co-ordinated. I certainly wouldn't recommend doing anything like that though, as you won't really improve by playing in that manner.

As for the initial post, you seem to be coming across a lot of people setting rather biased and stupid rules, but a rather easy way of breaking through massed armoured infantry with a max cav rule is a mixture of berserkers and weapon upgraded chosen axemen. If done properly, they will rout the Roman infantry pretty easily, but they are vulnerable to archers and flanking cavalry, so you can't stand about.

Other setups would depend on the faction you are playing. I don't play as the Franks much, but against Plumbatarii as you said you certainly don't want to stand around much when in range. I don't think there is a magic army I can suggest as them that will suddenly mean you'll beat them every game, but general ideas like pinning and flanking do hold true. Much of the strength of Roman infantry is derived from their pila/darts, so you have to engage them with something to prevent them from throwing, while a mixture of cavalry and infantry flank. Giving experience upgrades to infantry is probably also a good idea, as previously mentioned, just to get your front line to hold longer and also keeping a priest chanting behind your front line does wonders for morale.

Overall using Chosen swords as a front line, using upgraded Spearmen with some of your cavalry to fight their's, hopefully freeing up some of your own cavalry to flank their infantry that is fighting yours should work with a bit of practice. Just always remember to try to pin and flank, as infantry (and cavalry) is much easier to beat when you do this.

[NihilisticCow]

My best advice would be though to not play people who insist on setting unnecessary rules, but if you are getting really stuck we could play a couple of games, and I could take a look at how you're playing.

[Rodion Romanovich]

all cav + archer armies???

I thought that had stopped months ago in RTW, now its back with BI? What a shame.

So making a player chase you around the field all night.... sounds fun (feel the sarcasm). Serves them right for being Rome and making rules to fit them.

It's not fun... Just an example of how 12.5k + no art + max 5 cav is unbalanced. Raise it to perhaps 8 cav and it's more interesting again, as the sassanid army can't have 8 good cavalry because it's too expensive, then they need balance in order to counter all the possible opposing armies, unless they feel lucky.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Overall using Chosen swords as a front line, using upgraded Spearmen with some of your cavalry to fight their's, hopefully freeing up some of your own cavalry to flank their infantry that is fighting yours should work with a bit of practice. Just always remember to try to pin and flank, as infantry (and cavalry) is much easier to beat when you do this.

When you're forced to flank in order to crush the enemy infantry, you're in trouble IMO. Usually there's one big cavalry to cavalry engagement (apart from the harassing and other cav to cav meetings) in R:TW games during one phase, and only if you win it can you relieve your infantry. Problem is, if you are in desperate need of that supporting cav charge, the enemy can use that to his advantage. The simple moving away of own cavalry forcing the enemy to choose between charging your line from the rear (getting pinned) and then get sandwiched by your cavs, or chasing your cavs and losing time, so that the own line routs before being supported. Strong infantry line is IMO the key in games with balanced armies, the other things can be made up for by cleverness and simple (i.e. not mouse click intensive but more giving simple but effective large-scale orders) manouvering.

Nihilist if you're interested I'd like to set up an mp game with either of us using the sassanid spam army I described, with the other using an army of choice under the rules 12.5k + no art + max 5 cav. I tried it repeatedly today and despite playing carelessly the opposition had no chance any of the times. If you can beat such an army in BI with those rules (and the player having that army not being a newbie), I'd love to see a replay of it. With max 8 cav, I can think of some counters, but not with max 5 if denarii are 12.5k.

[NihilisticCow]

When you're forced to flank in order to crush the enemy infantry, you're in trouble IMO.

Not at all, this is something I do quite a lot in pretty much every game. I often take infantry that doesn't do much more than hold, and sneak a couple of units of cavalry through and flank them, while the main body of my cavalry force is fighting enemy cavalry. Strangely enough what has happened quite a few times is my "weak" infantry force ended up saving the day when my main cavalry force was killed, solely due to the flanking units.

What I normally do is have a least 3 separate groups of cavalry, so the scenario you mentioned is generally avoided. If you keep all your cavalry together, then of course you're not going to be able to flank. So, while people still play the game as if it is Rome in 1.2, there is still a big cavalry engagment, but my cavalry that is fighting in it is only really just a holding force, while lighter cav elsewhere is actually doing a far more important job.

As for the spam army thing, well maybe if you catch me on a day when I'm sufficiently bored to play that type of game. It doesn't though interest me to actually play it to prove a point, I have enough of random players online doing that kind of thing. As I said though, I agree that max 5 cav is unfair.

[Loinnreach]

It's not fun... Just an example of how 12.5k + no art + max 5 cav is unbalanced. Raise it to perhaps 8 cav and it's more interesting again, as the sassanid army can't have 8 good cavalry because it's too expensive, then they need balance in order to counter all the possible opposing armies, unless they feel lucky.

For 12,5k matches:
-no artillery
-no cantaberian circle option for HA, or max 2 HA units if you prefer to use cantaberian circle and this doesn't not make any faction weak

If you like you can have as well following rules, which are not needed (my personal opinion - reason: so far I've not meet anyone with unabalanced army who could be able to win against one balance one for example)

-max 5 per same unit type
-2 max bersekers units (Burgundi are even more effective without them - use other units better and more effectively)

This is only my opinion.

Ayra if you would like to improve your skills in BI, visit www.totalwars.net. I assume you will be able to find what you are looking for.

For example one thread regarding few different army types:
http://forums.totalwars.net/viewtopic.php?t=154

[Rodion Romanovich]

@Nihilist: Good points, I think we agree. I've played too little BI mp yet, but you're actually right that the BI cavalry can hold for much longer in cav vs cav, so your strategy is fine - unless you meet me. I have a secret weapon for your light cavs

Btw I think the funniest games are when you host and let the guest decide rules and denarii. I've been doing that for the last 20 games and I think it's great with the variety it means, it hasn't disappointed me so far.

@Ayra: When I think about it, there are plenty of players I've played who don't set as restrictive rules. You might just have a bad luck with the time you connect. I find that generally GMT 4 PM to 10 PM is the best time for getting many players, meaning a greater chance of meeting someone who has the rules you want. Or if you can host - I think most players without too heavy hardware firewalls etc. can host in R:TW unlike in M:TW - you can always decide the rules.

[AquaLurker]

These are the kind of ridiculous rules I encounter.

1. No canterbarian circles
2. Max cav 4-5 including general
3. No horse achers
4. No shield wall
5. No berserkers (I don't mind limiting them...but banning them?)
6. No archers

Why not no BI for the rules?

I usually find the game interesting between 12.5k-25k, each denarii level between the range gives a different gaming experience. Pretty enjoyable and balance.

One thing I like about BI is that other than berserkers being a little overpowered, the game have a balance feel to it and cav dies alot faster in melee. They no longer dominate the field, franks on the other hand is rather difficult to use, but they are pretty tough in forest against rome, They have better cav too.

Rome still remains very powerful in BI especially when cav spaming have been weaken in BI, their strenght now truely lies in the infantry department. You can always rely on the inf to hold the line. The key is always keep some reserves for rome.

One thing I don't understand, why can play BI SP with Max graphic quality settings (huge armies) without lag yet most of the games I played in MP is laggy? Could it be MP bugs or just Game spy problem?

[King Ragnar]

These are the kind of ridiculous rules I encounter.

1. No canterbarian circles
2. Max cav 4-5 including general
3. No horse achers
4. No shield wall
5. No berserkers (I don't mind limiting them...but banning them?)
6. No archers

1,3,4,5 and 6 are a joke, but i can understand number 2 as there is some people out there who do spam cav alot.

[NihilisticCow]

1,3,4,5 and 6 are a joke, but i can understand number 2 as there is some people out there who do spam cav alot.

Well the no cantabrian circle rule is not without reason. I don't personally enforce that, but I do understand totally why people do. The problem is basically that horse archers in cantabrian circle are impervious to archer fire, and you can't really skirmish with light cav as the horse archers run away will but still firing at the light cav, so the light cav dies or gets charged by the heavier horse archers. The casualties the horse archers take while pulling back from archers are minimal, and archer ammo runs out a lot quicker than horse archers ammo. Heavy cav can't catch them, and gets shot and dies as well, and infantry has no chance. Setting a no cantabrian circle rule means that horse archers are used in a more correct role as skirmishing units, not as units that eradicate entire archers lines without loss.

The max cav rule is though a "joke", as it is not needed in BI, as cavalry spamming is not really effective to the same degree any more.

The other rules are not needed either: No horse archers (a bit extreme but no cant or a horse archer max works better), No shield wall (what??? I can't believe anyone would set that rule), No berserkers (berserkers are not as powerful as people think), No archers (lol.... well I wouldn't even bother playing anyone who set this rule as they obviously do not know how to play).

[King Ragnar]

Yes we all know the Cantriban Circle is unbeatable, but you have to find a way to destroy them or counter them with HA, having no cantriban circle defeats the point of having HA.

[NihilisticCow]

Having a no cantabrian circle rule doesn't actually defeat the point of having horse archers, you just have to use them a little differently. I certainly wouldn't say Cantabrian circle is unbeatable, just unfair when you're up against larger numbers of horse archers. Even out of cantabrian circle, horse archers are still very effective, as they fire while they're moving, so you can plague enemy lines quite well and the more armoured horse archers are pretty resistant to archer fire anyway, but it just allows a way of countering them.

[The Hun]

Answer is simple.....Do not join games with rules. People make rules to suit themselves. Your Sarmatian army is not spam. All these rules I read are to suit a way of play that is not your way. If you play in these games you are not enjoying. That is why you play BI for enjoy, not for others to make you play as they want.

[AquaLurker]

I think canterbarian circle is ok, just like the spear schiltron, warcry, bersek pilum throwing and sheild wall, it is part of the game. A balance denarii setting (IMHO 10k-15k) that discourage horse archers spam(or the likes) is all that is needed, the more horse archers you buy at this level, the smaller your amry gets. HA are not game winning but very irritating.

At 20k to 25k games you can spam and you can actually have a effective and somewhat realistic Hun like army, but it is not game winning.(IMHO)

I feel that BI have a very different feel and works much better for balance, all u need is to control the denarii level. Flaw...it in lags 8 out of 10 games online.

If only we can combine RTR skins, ver1.2 smoothness, and BI combat system all together.

And yes...there are people who set those rules I mentioned and I believe the rules are made to suit their own style.