can the holocaust be denied?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

.
Quite large number of gypsies have been living settled for so long time over here. Many of them, in a way or other, are involved in criminal activities, many of them aren't. Now, most of the crime scene in Turkey uses kurd immigrant youths in their bottom ranks and administered by a veriety of scum with varying ethnic and regional backgrounds. That gives nobody the right of spreading hatred against kurds or people from a certain region. It's like saying "I don't like Jews" because Israel is a terrorist state or "I hate Germans" because Hitler was a mass murderer.

Anyway, you get the point. Saying "I don't like criminals" is one thing but bashing a certain ethnic group based on their prejudiced infamy is definitely racisme.
.

Since when are Gypsies an ethnic group?

Roma are, but Gypsies are a group of people who roam the countryside stealing from people. Most basically, at least. Hungarian nobles used to carry around daggers in there sleaves so that if a gypsie robbed them of their purse, they could stab the gypsies arm and get their money back.

If Greg sees a problem with the post, I'll edit it, this is his part of the Org. But I myself do not, nor do I see how it's rascist. Therefore, I shall not remove it. Sorry, Mouza.

[Kraxis]

Gypsy is the name we have given the Roma. Just like we call Hungarians that while they call themselves Magyar.

[Tribesman]

Since when are Gypsies an ethnic group?

Since people started slaughtering them because of their ethnicity , that might be a clue , but I doubt you will get it .
Perhaps you might look at the Nazis worries about maintaining the ethnic purity of the 230,000 Saxons in Transylvania as they were in close proximity to one and a half million Rumanians , a million Maygars and 100,000 gypsies . Oh but Gypsies are not an ethnic group are they
Perhaps you might want to learn a bit about Osteuropaforshung or the PuSte or NODFG if you wish to learn of the holocaust or nazi theories of racial purity/superiority .

Can the holocaust be denied ? I wonder what David Irving is thinking in his jail cell right now

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Since when are Gypsies an ethnic group?

Since people started slaughtering them because of their ethnicity , that might be a clue , but I doubt you will get it .
Perhaps you might look at the Nazis worries about maintaining the ethnic purity of the 230,000 Saxons in Transylvania as they were in close proximity to one and a half million Rumanians , a million Maygars and 100,000 gypsies . Oh but Gypsies are not an ethnic group are they
Perhaps you might want to learn a bit about Osteuropaforshung or the PuSte or NODFG if you wish to learn of the holocaust or nazi theories of racial purity/superiority .

Can the holocaust be denied ? I wonder what David Irving is thinking in his jail cell right now

Hrm...I thought that Roma and Sinti were ethnic groups that made up the Gypsies, and that "Gypsie" was not an ethnic group in itself

[Kraxis]

Hrm...I thought that Roma and Sinti were ethnic groups that made up the Gypsies, and that "Gypsie" was not an ethnic group in itself

Given that all Gypsies are the offspring of Indian migrations there might have been an ethnic split along the line, but from that to totally different ethnic groups is a rather large gap. It would be similar to talking about differences between Danes and Swedes as we are talking about either two different tribes from the Punjab or people who split some 600-800 years ago from each other.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Kaiser,

There is an ages old misconception that Gypsies are from Egypt (hence Gypsy, bastardized from Egyptian; in Ottoman Turkish they were also nicked Kıbtî (قبطی), which actually means "Coptic". They're actually of Indian origin.
.

[Watchman]

They're also been getting the boot to the head at least as thoroughly as the Jews relative to the amont of time in question, but it doesn't seem like despising them stopped being acceptable...

Someone whose opinion I value highly once drily commented that the Gypsies (or Rom, or whatever name you now use for them) just might be about the only major ethnic group in the world with a reasonably legit claim to an "innocent victim" status.

[Kraxis]

Someone whose opinion I value highly once drily commented that the Gypsies (or Rom, or whatever name you now use for them) just might be about the only major ethnic group in the world with a reasonably legit claim to an "innocent victim" status.

Well it is true that they have a long and wide history of petty theft and scams, but in general they have been less than dangerous as they have always been dispersed and few in numbers. They couldn't have been a danger to anybody but those who are careless with their valuables.

So innocent is perhaps a bit too long out, but they are best candidates for that title.

[Cronos Impera]

The Russian tzar Nicholas II's regime also promoted anti-semitism before the interbelic period. There was a russian anti-semitic period before the third reich. Why don't we call him along with Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain anti-semitic.
Because they didn't have the political power to carry on a large-scale genocide. Because the Inquisition and the Russian Imperial Age are long forgotten, because they happened a long time ago.
The Inquisition and the ethnic purges of the Tzar's army had an equivalent impact as the Holocaust. If a greater genocide occured in the twenty-first century I'm sure the Holocaust will be forgotten.
The Holocaust sets a target for the future psihopatic nationalists. An example is the massacre of Kurdish civilians by Saddam Hussein. If he hadn't been stopped by the Gulf War and The Iraq War the numbers might have reached those of the Holocaust and the means of extermination ware the same ( poison gas and machine gun fire).

They ware genocides in history with evan a greater impact, according to the world population of that time like the distruction of Carthage, the afro-american slave trade, the invasions of the mongol horde, the Inquisition, the viking raids etcetera.

[Cronos Impera]

And btw, in Transylvania the ethnic majority is Romanian.

[Kalle]

I would not compare the viking raids to the holocaust.

Kalle

[Red Harvest]

Well it is true that they have a long and wide history of petty theft and scams, but in general they have been less than dangerous as they have always been dispersed and few in numbers. They couldn't have been a danger to anybody but those who are careless with their valuables.

So innocent is perhaps a bit too long out, but they are best candidates for that title.

Yes, I think "innocent" is not the most correct terminology considering background, but also as you have said they couldn't really pose a national threat. Seems to me it was just more of the obsessive approach to "ordered society." Nomadic types don't fit at all, so the simple ruthless Nazi calculus was to dispose of them wholesale. The dipsersed nature matches that of the jews as well.

[Zajuts149]

What do the Catholics have to do with it? I mean the French are Catholic, the Poles are Catholic too amongst many ofther Catholic Nations that were at War with Nazi Germany...

The Haulocaust was not a religious crime, it was an enthnic crime, the Jews were targeted for their ethnic identity as were the gypsies...besides...Italy was an Ally of Nazi Germany and last I checked Italy is catholic.

All in all this Terrible War made more than 50 Million dead.

Too true. The The whole world faced the Holocaust, not just the Jews(though they've strangely monopolized the word).

Denying that it happend is like denying that man has been on the moon or that Elvis is dead.

It's sometimes hard to face reality, but sometimes your favourite heroes are ultimately villains, and the losing side. Genocide has been a part of Human history even before history, and it will still be. It happened just 10 years ago in Rwanda, and could be going on even as we read this in numerous countries on a different scale.

The weight behind the Holocaust Lore is just heavier because of the industry that keeps feeding us different sides about it. What was so markedly significant about the Nazi German extermination program of Jews and other 'undesirables', is the industrialization of the process. It was a killing industry that alienated the participants so much from the process, that many of the perpetrators didn't feel any guilt, but we all feel that such a huge crime cannot pass unpenanced, so we're still at it today. That it happened to Jews is only important to the Jews. That it happened to millions of people is important to all of us.

[Fragony]

Of course it can be denied. Why one would chose to do so I just don't get. If they weren't killed where did they go, we seem to have a modest number of jews that never returning home.

[Tribesman]

Oh well David Irvine is pleading guilty to the charges and going to face sentancing , But.....
he has changed his views after researching in the Russian archives in the 1990s. He said, 'I've repented. I've no intention of repeating these views. That would be historically stupid and I'm not a stupid man.'

"He said, 'I fully accept this, it's a fact. The discussion on Auschwitz, the gas chambers and the Holocaust is finished ."



My my we seem to have a modest number of jews that never returning home.
Is that what your Neo-nazi websites are saying now Frag ? a modest number

[Ser Clegane]

Is that what your Neo-nazi websites are saying now Frag ? a modest number

I think Fragony's use of the term "modest" was meant to be sarcastic here

[Fragony]

Is that what your Neo-nazi websites are saying now Frag ? a modest number

Quite comfortable insulting me from your pc isn't it? Let's make a little rule, don't say anything you wouldn't say in real life, and thrust me you wouldn't.

[Rodion Romanovich]

The holocaust can’t be denied for the simple fact the Nazi never denied it. They said it wasn’t me but he (Hitler, Himmler and others who commit suicide if possible), the courageous supermen, but they never try to play this card.
People who try to deny it have the burden of the proof. They have to give the bills for concrete, wires and wood for the barracks. They have to give evidences, named the general in charge, provide the names of the companies hired to build the camps by the allies. They of course can’t, so they spread rumours, allegations etc…
Just read Speer, the only Nazi with remorse and main architect of Hitler, and that is enough.

You can't argue weather it happened, but you can argue over the number of dead.

Estimates range from as low as 200,000 to up to 20 million.

Both good points to which I agree fully. The big question that automatically rises in my brain when seeing this is: why would someone want to try to deny the holocaust? There's absolutely nothing that supports the view that claims it didn't happen at all. It's generally hard to estimate death tolls in genocide affairs which the guilty have tried to hide from the public, but it makes no political or ideological difference whatsoever whether it was 6 million or 20 million or whatever... A nazi would benefit in no way from showing, if it would be possible to do so, that the death toll would be a few percent below the most popular estimates. Likewise, an opponent to nazism wouldn't benefit from being able to raise the death toll by some percent. The point of interest for practical reasons is whether it existed or not (if anyone tries to build factory-like facilities for killing, the psychological climate of society and civilization has obviously been a failure), but the non-existence of the incident can never be proved because the existence has been proved (unless you're a solopsist). If proving a smaller death toll would be possible it would still not give neo-nazis any more power or more support because of it... The only reason I can see for someone to try to deny the holocaust or change the death toll estimation, is to make money personally, by selling his books. And indeed, didn't the first post in this thread say exactly that - the guy in question was about to release a book he wanted to sell? It's just another example of tasteless scandal press.

[Adrian II]

The big question that automatically rises in my brain when seeing this is: why would someone want to try to deny the holocaust?

That is actually a very interesting issue. Different deniers have different reasons, of course, but in nearly all cases they reflect the sorry state of 20th century man, the homo ideologicus who turned his personal experiences and preoccupations onto large, all-encompassing world views. This led to the sort of blatant inconsistencies we see reflected in the minute details of Holocaust denial.

There are neo-nazi deniers who claim all at the same time that (1) there was no Holocaust, (2) that the Holocaust was the well-deserved fate of the Jews, and (3) that the Holocaust was the work of Jews infiltrating the nazi hierarchy.

There are 'honest' deniers who claim that the Holocaust could not have been committed because that would be too horrible to comtemplate.

There are anti-Communist deniers who claim that the Holocaust was a cover-up for the Communist strategy to eliminate all non-Communists in the German 'work camps'.

There are anti-Zionist deniers who will, in one and the same breath, claim that (1) the Holocaust never took place and (2) Israel is exterminating Palestinians in the exact same way as the Germans exterminated Jews during the ... Holocaust.

The entire history of the political and propagandistic abuse of the Holocaust by Jews and non-Jews is fascinating because of the insights it produces into the twisted ways of human reasoning and behaviour. On the one hand there is a sense of guilt among non-Jews upon which Jewish groups and the Israeli government have capitalised. On the other hand there is tremendous envy from other minorities or historically oppressed people that the nazis had to choose the Jews, of all peoples, to exterminate and thus turn into martyrs.

The best explanation for these twists and convolutions, I think, is the fact that nobody in their right mind is able to gauge the true extent of this nazi crime. In fact I believe that most deniers are 'honest' in their motives. Their fake claims and ahistorical ploys serve to escape from the truth, to walk away from the facts instead of having to acknowledge the depth of human depravity that they represent.

[Meneldil]

About the Nazis never wanting to deny the Holocaust, I think I read and saw on TV that they tried to hide it by destroying big camps like Auschwitz and by killing all the people who survived.

[Geoffrey S]

To use a cliche, often it seems people find it far to easy to believe that if one group states 'black' and another group 'white' the truth must be 'gray'; in the case of the holocaust that the death toll must be somewhere in the middle of extremes put forward by various groups. Perhaps holocaust deniers hope that if this is repeated often enough it somehow dulls the impact of the holocaust, that the lower figures will be taken as true, assuming that people will find the systematic murder of 200.000 jews less offensive than six million. And for some, this may even be the case.

Certainly discussion of the holocaust has a tendency to bring out the most hypocritical side in people.

[Kraxis]

To use a cliche, often it seems people find it far to easy to believe that if one group states 'black' and another group 'white' the truth must be 'gray'; in the case of the holocaust that the death toll must be somewhere in the middle of extremes put forward by various groups. Perhaps holocaust deniers hope that if this is repeated often enough it somehow dulls the impact of the holocaust, that the lower figures will be taken as true, assuming that people will find the systematic murder of 200.000 jews less offensive than six million. And for some, this may even be the case.

Certainly discussion of the holocaust has a tendency to bring out the most hypocritical side in people.

Sounds good on paper, but that would mean they would have to work together to an extent. But deniers (is that even a word?) tend to be single persons.

Personally I lean towards a more psychological idea (really tere must be a lot of reasons). That these deniers aer in fact in awe of the National-Socialist social structure and the achievements, as in 'they were doing good'. The deniers, being themselves good people (if somewhat deluded) can't stand to think of their social heroes being that bad (they recognize that industrial killing of people is very bad). They WANT the Holocaust to go away, they want to turn the blind eye, so that there is a viable social structure that could be argued for. At the moment they can't argue against anyone since the issue of Holocaust comes up and ruins it, and when Holocaust is mentioned everybody tends to look with very unfavourable eyes at the person it is directed at (much like 'racist' is in most EU countries, even if it has no hold in reality).

[Geoffrey S]

Sounds good on paper, but that would mean they would have to work together to an extent. But deniers (is that even a word?) tend to be single persons.

Not necessarily. I agree that it does tend to be individuals who attempt to deny the holocaust, particularly when said individuals are academics, but larger groups of people who as you say would be in favour of National-Socialism would generally have common sources for their claims, likely to be those previously mentioned academics. The deniers don't have to be in groups to be effective, since they are frequently granted disproportionate amounts of publicity when they do proclaim their views; negative publicity, true, but it does mean their claims can stick.

As for the second part of your post, agreed. Having their ideology tainted by such a thing as the Holocaust must annoy them immensely.

[Adrian II]

Personally I lean towards a more psychological idea (really tere must be a lot of reasons). That these deniers aer in fact in awe of the National-Socialist social structure and the achievements, as in 'they were doing good'.

That would certainly apply to some of the deniers, Brother Kraxis, but I think not to the majority of them. Like I said, it really pays off to look into the denial movement in some detail because in many ways it reflects the ideological preoccupations (and aberrations) of the entire previous century (and the latter part of the nineteenth). Much like a clinical case-study of a schizophreniac can sometimes give you surprising insights into the schizoid styles of politicians, artists, cultural phenomena, etcetera. Richard Hofstadter used this procedure for his famous essay on The Paranoid Style in American Politics (Harpers Magazine, 1964).

Anyway, I always found the work of French specialist Pierre Vidal-Naquet enlightening, particularly with regard to the French deniers such as Faure, Rassinier and Faurisson. His article Who are the Assassins of Memory? is reprinted on Michel Fingerhut's beautiful little site, which carries essays in both French and English on the very subject.

[ajaxfetish]

They ware genocides in history with evan a greater impact, according to the world population of that time like the distruction of Carthage, the afro-american slave trade, the invasions of the mongol horde, the Inquisition, the viking raids etcetera.

Certainly one of the greatest genocides in the history of the world, if not the greatest, would be the destruction of the native inhabitants of the Americas after European colonization began, though most of the killing in that instance was carried out by disease, not death squads or concentration camps. Still there was a very systematic persecution filled with smaller genocidal instances lasting centuries.

Doesn't get addressed nearly as often as the holocaust, though. I think it's not so much the numbers as much as the institutional, organized, almost mechanical killing nature of the holocaust that attracts so much attention.

Ajax

[Papewaio]

What one person has done so can you... normally used in a positive sense. But it also explains why some want to deny the Holocaust... they do not want to think that they too could be that evil or that fragile to be a component of the Holocaust either as a processor or one of the processed. It is a strange form of guilt by association.

Some people when confronted with something horrible will suppress the event, deny it, runaway from it. Make it untrue and allow them to go on functioning.

Others cannot stand the idea that their idealogical heros did something so horrible. They want just the good bits and to deny the worst.

[Adrian II]

Doesn't get addressed nearly as often as the holocaust, though. I think it's not so much the numbers as much as the institutional, organized, almost mechanical killing nature of the holocaust that attracts so much attention.

Plus the fact that it meant to wipe an entire people off the face of the earth. It will be hard to find one instance in the history of South America where the extermination of the entire native population was envisaged, planned and set in motion with all available means.

[Fragony]

Maybe you know something about this AdrianII, someone once told me that Hitler wanted to deport the jews to Madagascar. I thought it was just a stupid wordjoke(gas is in the word after all), but now I have also read it in 'Het geschiedenis wel nut' by Maarten van Rossum. Now I know he has a talent for sarcasm and I can be extremily stupid, ever heard of this?

[Stefan the Berserker]

Stupid Questions deserve stupid answers:

Yes it is possible, but it is difficult...

1. Chop of all your Hair and eat it with Butter.
2. Put five 0,2 L Glasses of this in the Microwave.
3. Put on a black Poloshirt.
4. Listen to Rammstein Songs for 6 Hours and consume the hot Stuff.

Do now try to read the Book and it will all appear logical.

[The Wizard]

I've seen accusations that we 'monopolize' the shoah... it fits in the long line of accusations and assumptions usually employed to criticize Israel with. "Every time we criticize Israel they drag the Holocaust out, making me feel bad about myself! Boo!"

No. Can you blame us? The shoah is the defining element of our lives. If it had gone on for one more measly year, I probably wouldn't have been here at all. The shoah is also the reason Israel exists. It is the reason all Jews finally united under Zionism.

And not only that -- all Jews not sabra's (born in Israel), and perhaps not American, suffer under the horrible memory of the shoah. Every time I read about it I think of my family murdered, of my grandmother in hiding, fearing for her life. I think of all those people, carted off to die, and of "wir haben das nicht gewissen". I feel rage, I feel sorrow, I feel hate, I feel pain.

I could easily hate the entire Polish nation and people, and the entire German nation and people, and the Russian etc. etc. etc., just like some Greeks hate Turks with a passion and some Turks hate Greeks with a passion, and so many other examples of useless hatemongering and vendetta's accross the world. But why? Why would I hate Polish people? Because their government -- their government, not even their people -- tried to keep the dark secret within their borders hidden after the war ended, with Russian help? That was sixty years ago. Sixty years. I know a Polish girl. She's real nice. Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, I have no problem with Poles overall. Oh, sure, there'll be some ignorant buffoons within their society, but every society has those.

The fact is -- the shoah defines my life. It has made me, and I hope my people, finally aware of the fact that we can no longer be ghetto Jews. Or there'll be another anti-semitic action coming. It's been going on for centuries, and I see the bestial fear which unlocks it simmer underneath each European I know. For Arabs it is relatively new, this wraith of anti-semitism, but I see it within them too. A really bright Pashtuni (yep, not Arab, I was generalizing) I know, the kind of which there should be so much more, even said he did not deign to recognize Israel's right to existence.

But, no. No more. I will not stand idly by, grasping the Torah, saying it was God's holy task for us -- hence for us to suffer. I won't accept it. We don't deserve it. No-one does.

And that is why we "always drag the Holocaust in". If we are 'monopolizing' it, it is unintentional.