Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR

[Kagemusha]

I believe the battle was lost when our strongest armies were trapped behind the river.I still dont understand how we could have taken the both tank armies of from the north.There was also a German tank corps,waiting to hit us from North.How could have we won the scenario when we lost all the individual battles.I lost my hope at the moment when Totenkopf slipped away When we tryed to destroy it with two armies and a tank army.All our efforts to pin down the german spearheads were failed.We couldnt use the tactics we used in zitadelle by pinning down the enemy and the flanking them.The only way to stop for even a little bit the German tank formations were to use our tank armies to halt them for even briefly,and that took away all our mobile reserves.About why we didnt evacuote the the positions on the other side of the river.What i read the German 48th tank corps was bhind us on the other side of the river.If we would have tryed to cross back the river we wouldnt have got anykind of chance of Survival.
How i see it there was not simply enough troops to support our attack.In a normal Soviet major assault the Soviets used atleast 3/1 ratio before they thought they could assault.
I agree with Kraxis that we walked into a trap becouse we didnt listen to our gut feeling.

[Kraxis]

I have also been wondering... Didn't we elect to strike with combined forces? And yet we ended up with our tanks out in front and the infantry and guns lagging behind seriously.

[Franconicus]

You did! You know that the Soviet armies all had a remarkable tank force, not only the tank armies. The choice was to chase the 2nd army with tanks only or to follow them with combined forces.

You ordered one tank army to repel the German counter strike near Tschernihiw and the second to support the crossing of the Dnjepr north of Kiev and the 3rd (the 5th Guard Tank) south of Kiev.

I think it was a big disatvantage for the Sovs that their tanks wre devided. Their normal armies had not enough tanks to stand a Germans tank corps. But they had too many tanks so that there were only three tank armies and each was weaker than on of the five German tank corps.
The German tank concentration gave them superority whereever they attacked and made the tanks more mobile.

P.S.: I want to thank you all for your input. Although I had expected to have more participants I am glad that there were four high skilled, constant players.Excellent discussions, not only on the military issues but also on the strategy and big politics.
I have to say that the whole thing was a lot of fun and really catched me for a couple of weeks.

[King Kurt]

The loss of the battle of Kiev I think was mainly due to us not knowing what was on the other side of the hill. The maps helped a bit, but often showed big gaps. Even at the end, I thought the 2nd SS looked isolated. Also, I became obssesed with getting over the Dnjepr as I assumed that the reason for the retreat was to establish a strong defensive line on the river line - hey, as MTW players, we all know about bridge battles in Kiev!! - I thought that getting over the river with some forces would undo the position. In fact the river was the bait of the trap - and it certainly worked.

As to historical errors - well I think errors is too strong a word - I would see them as points of contention. For me these would be that getting rid of Hitler and the resultant coup/ change of power was a little easy. I would of thought that the extent that the Nazi party were intertwined with the machinery of government that resistance would be longer and more determined. The other thing I was always concerned with was the speed of production and apparent trouble free intoduction of the Panthers, Tigers and Elephants. My memory of the battle of Kursk - the real life introduction of Panthers and Elephants - was that they - and the panthers in particular - were prone to breakdown.
So, once again Feanc, well done. I, and I am sure my fellow Soviet generals, found it very enjoyable. It has inspired me to start looking for a project, and I am currently looking at the Battle of Midway with the forum controling the Japanese - so watch this space!

[Franconicus]

The loss of the battle of Kiev I think was mainly due to us not knowing what was on the other side of the hill. The maps helped a bit, but often showed big gaps. Even at the end, I thought the 2nd SS looked isolated. Also, I became obssesed with getting over the Dnjepr as I assumed that the reason for the retreat was to establish a strong defensive line on the river line - hey, as MTW players, we all know about bridge battles in Kiev!! - I thought that getting over the river with some forces would undo the position. In fact the river was the bait of the trap - and it certainly worked.

Not so absurd. After Zitadelle the Germans tried to build a defense along the Dnjepr. But it broke down when the Soviets managed to cross the river.

As to historical errors - well I think errors is too strong a word - I would see them as points of contention. For me these would be that getting rid of Hitler and the resultant coup/ change of power was a little easy. I would of thought that the extent that the Nazi party were intertwined with the machinery of government that resistance would be longer and more determined.

We have to speculate because nobody ever tried, unfortunately! I think the organisation of the NSDAP was very hierarchic; Germans tend to be hierarchic and the NS ideology increased that. It was a system of pure obedience. And Hitler, like all despots, did not allow another strong personality beside him. His official political heir was Goering!!!!
So my thoughts were that if you take the head away and replace it by another all the Nazis would do what they used to do: obey! Of cause you had to replace Goering and Himmler. Himmler was really dangerous. To me he was the only person who could start a rebellion. So it was the easiest thing to give him the blame and kill him. And then erase the organisation from within.

The other thing I was always concerned with was the speed of production and apparent trouble free intoduction of the Panthers, Tigers and Elephants. My memory of the battle of Kursk - the real life introduction of Panthers and Elephants - was that they - and the panthers in particular - were prone to breakdown.

You are right. But on the other side, the Germans had several weeks to fix the problems and they were closer to their base at Kiev. On the other hand - even the Panthers and Elephants at Kursk had increadible scores. If my sources are true:
Tank Destroyer Dep.653 & 654 had 90 Elefants and destroyed more than 502 enemy tanks, 20 ATG and 100 guns.
Heavy Tank Det.503 – 45 Tiger - destroyed 385 tanks, 4 assault tanks and 265 ATGs between 5. July 1943 and 17. August 1943
Mine were not so successful

So, once again Feanc, well done. I, and I am sure my fellow Soviet generals, found it very enjoyable. It has inspired me to start looking for a project, and I am currently looking at the Battle of Midway with the forum controling the Japanese - so watch this space!

Great news! Good luck!
One advice: use the org to collect information you need. They gave some really good links. In the end I knew the names of almost every Soviet tank driver.

[Kraxis]

Yeah I was a bit puzzled about the tanknumbers of the Germans, especially the Tigers and Panthers (100 and 200 respectively at Kursk). But I assumed the long retreat went some distance to fix the fatal flaming flaw of the Panthers.

Good luck KK. Read a book on the subject, get a view on what could have been different (such as the searchplane from Tone actually getting in the air in time or another ship's plane taking over). Those are in fact more important that the specific facts as they aer readily available.
Listen to the posters, often they have great ideas you can implement later in the story.

Btw, I will unstick this thread now.

[Franconicus]

Kurt, I thought about your plan and although I my home is the highland I must say Midway sounds very promising. - But difficult. I think yiou have to deal with several problems:
1) The Japanese did not know that the Americans were waiting for them; that was prob. the main reason for the defeat. However, if we play the Japs we certainly know tha US is there and we know pretty well their stregth.
2) In this kind of combined air / sea battle many things happen by chance. A recon plane spots the enemy or not, a dive bomber manages to get through the sreen and hits the carrier while five other planes miss the ship, the bombers arrive when the interceptores just started; little things beyond our decition that will decide the game. So how will you manage this without maniplating the result? Throw a dice? Or do you have a big simulator like the one I used at Kiev?
3) For these kind of naval battles you certainly need excellent maps to describe where the units are, whre the planes are, etc.


Other intersting naval battles: Tsushima, PQ17, Operation Paukenschlag ...

Good luck!! I am looking forward to read your story!!

[King Kurt]

Franc - you hit the nail on the head - the Japanese were not aware of the strength of the US and the extent that their code has been compromised. That is why I intend to control the US and the posters the Japanese. I also intend to alter the scenario with a view to redressing the balance.
I have long been interested in the sea/air war in the Pacific and have read many things on this and the other battles in the Pacific. I have also gamed them with board games and PC games. Sadly there is not a curent game I could use - my previous PC game was on the Commodore 64 over 20 years ago!! - but 1 is in the pipeline so I am pleased with that.
So I will prepare, and when ready, let you all know in the time honoured way.

[Franconicus]

Kraxis,
One proposal: You opened a new genre with your alternates; now we have always several going on. Wouldn't it be great to have a seperate sub directory for those.

[Kraxis]

I have been thinking the same for a few days now. I will have to take a talk with the bosses.

[Franconicus]

Yes, ask the Iluminati