Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR

[Kraxis]

Honestly I would go for a combination of 2 and 3. Give it all you have to put pressure on the Germans, for as it seems now the Germans might think they are strong enough to force a 'White Peace'. One has to back up demands with force when it coems to war.

If Italy recieves ALL the attention the secondary landings might very well become strong enough to not have Salerno and Anzio happen. That could mean a more fluid action. The Germans would still have to guard France very well, but the Allies wouldn't have to engage them there (divide and conquer).
At the same time the Russian are quite threatening as it is, and now an opening has presented itself to break off the alliance.

Of course the interaction should be secret...

[discovery1]

What would qualify as a "White Peace" as opposed to what we have suggested above?

[Kraxis]

A white peace is a return to status quo or a peace that is very close to it...

[discovery1]

A white peace is a return to status quo or a peace that is very close to it...

A white peace then isn't possible unless the sovs are no longer at war. But in the west, I fail to see how anythinbg other than a white peace COUKD happen. they aren't going to curve up much anyway. Lots of new states, but aside from that.

What are the allied terms anyway, or at least how do they differ from those proposed on page 3?

[King Kurt]

Sorry King Kurt i have to disagree.Nations cant afford to think whats good or evil.Instead what is the best intrest of the Nation.Under the Nazi government Germany never even officially sued for peace.Becouse there was a lunatic in control.Destroying of Germany should not be the aim what ever the conditions.If you put yourself in the boots of Churchill or Roosewalt,would you not like two powerhouses in the Europe that are hostile towards each other and the Third western European powerhouse who would only benefit from this situation,becouse it would rise them for the most powerfull of the three?

This is not about good or evil - the best interest of the UK and the USA is to see Germany smashed. Between 1870 and 1939 - barely 70 years - germany had been responsible for the 3 major wars on main land Europe - one of the reasons we have not had one since is because Germany was well beaten and it has been fully intergrated into Europe - and controled by the EC. As for the USA, they want to dominate world markets, so why let one of its biggest rivals off the hook when they are on the ropes.

My point about public opinion is that the UK and the USA had heard nothing but good about the Russians since 1941 - my father was a teenager in the war and he had a poster of a Black sea marine on his wall, not General Patton. The UK in the war developed a strong Socialistic feeling - all in it together etc - and this was evidenced by the election of the Labour party in 1945 at the expense of Churchill. So there would have been a strong resistance to any change of face amongst the Allies.

[Franconicus]

This is really a surprise to me? You want to make peace with Germany? Are you serious or is this just your pre-christmas mood?

This changes a lot and so I have to ask for our help again!

PARANTHESIS - THE ISLAND AGENDA
After a sleepless night the two heads of governments come to a decision. They will contact the German government and try to find an agreement. In the meanwhile they will meet Stalin and discuss the map of future Europe. If he does not guarantee the freedom and independency of the Central Europe nations, especially Poland, this will give reason to break the pact.
Roosevelt does not feel very comfortable with this plan, but finally he agrees. He worries about the impact on the pacific war. The Soviet Unit could strengthen the Japanese position. So he wants to redirect most of the bomber squadrons from Europe to Asia. Churchill does not agree. He wants to end war against Germany first.
Here are the options:

1. Follow Roosevelt’s plan: Stop all attacks against Germany (war in Italy can go on), move most of the air force from Europe to the Asian theatre. Throttle the deliveries for Russia and redirect them to China. Britain will increase their military strength in India and Burma.
2. Churchill’s plan: Negotiate and fight – go on with the attacks as planned while you negotiate with the Germans.
3. The compromise: Stop the operations against Germany but keep on building your forces in England. This will keep the pressure on Germany. And you could also use it against Stalin – you never know!

P.S.: Could I ask for a favour? Could someone prepare the peace talks preconditions and maybe a peace proposal for the Western Allies, please?

[discovery1]

Send all of Russia's aid to China, definetly. And ease up the bombing a little, it's not like it did anything irl. And keep building up your forces in GB.

And how could the USA not dominate world markets? Our economy is so huge.

[Franconicus]

Between 1870 and 1939 - barely 70 years - germany had been responsible for the 3 major wars on main land Europe.

I do not agree that Germany was respnosible all alone. I think Europe is a very sensitive construct. It easily gets out of balance. But maybe we should discuss this in another thread.

But I agree that it is essential - esp. for GB - tha there is a balance in Europe. But how can you get one?

[Franconicus]

And how could the USA not dominate world markets? Our economy is so huge.

Lets pretend taht Germany controls mainland Europe without Russia and GB. Then it has maybe 100 million citizens and controls a market of 300,000,000 to 500,000,000. If memory serves Germany had the biggest or second biggest trade marine before WW1. In the late 1970ies Germany raised to become the biggest exporting nation - although it had lost the war.

On the other hand: US companies like Ford, GM, Standard Oil or IBM could have participated in this trade.

[Kraxis]

Churchills plan... If the Ruskis happens to agree then there will be no real trouble. If we already divert resources Stalin won't ever grant us a single point.

We have to assume that the Allies WANT to stay together but the circumstances are against it right now.
Besides, Germany needs to feel the pressure for her to grant us as many points as possible. This is going to be diplomacy at a gunpoint, often a very effective form of diplomacy.

[King Kurt]

My hundredth post!!

I feel like a voice in the wilderness, but I would go for number 2 - carry on the fight and open negociations. As for terms and conditions, this is difficult. You want Germany to disband most of its military machine, but they will still be fighting the Soviets. You want a free Poland, but how can that be if the war continues in the east? It all boils down to can there be peace while the war in the east continues? So maybe, start with unconditional surrender!

One thought that has crossed my mind is that perhaps the Germans best option is to make peace with the Russians and ignore the UK and the USA. Some division of the spoils of Easten Europe would be possible and Stalin, as an absolute dictator, is in a far better position to do this than say the UK and the USA. German war aims were driven by land not a crusade against Communism and now Hitler has gone, why not. The Germans could play the " they never fought by you and were prepared to let you do all the major fighting" card while the Russians could offer a "you have the West, we will have the East approach". Now - there is a thought. Manstein must know that militarily he has 2 long term options - a defensive posture to keep them at bay or some form of total defeat of the Russians by a furthur invasion. In reality, are either of these an answer? Nobody has ever managed to totally subdue the Russians going back to the Mongols and a defensive posture commits the Germans to years of fighting. Even with tactit support from the UK and the USA, does Germany have the resources to do this? Would the result be an exhausted Germany, ripe for exploitation by the UK and USA who had been waiting on the sidelines?

[Franconicus]

My hundredth post!! Congrat!

I feel like a voice in the wilderness, but I would go for number 2 - carry on the fight and open negociations. As for terms and conditions, this is difficult. You want Germany to disband most of its military machine, but they will still be fighting the Soviets. You want a free Poland, but how can that be if the war continues in the east? It all boils down to can there be peace while the war in the east continues? So maybe, start with unconditional surrender! Another option would have been a European peace, including the SU.Like Kraxis said, the fundament would be prewar Europe with some new states in the middle. This would maybe closer to the balance that putting Germany down. However, the future of the states between Moscow and Berlin is still uncertain.

One thought that has crossed my mind is that perhaps the Germans best option is to make peace with the Russians and ignore the UK and the USA. Some division of the spoils of Easten Europe would be possible and Stalin, as an absolute dictator, is in a far better position to do this than say the UK and the USA. German war aims were driven by land not a crusade against Communism and now Hitler has gone, why not. The Germans could play the " they never fought by you and were prepared to let you do all the major fighting" card while the Russians could offer a "you have the West, we will have the East approach". Now - there is a thought. I guess Manstein has the same idea. Although German military does not like communism and although there were so much murders and crime in Russia - this is one option if the Western democracies will not cooperate.

Manstein must know that militarily he has 2 long term options - a defensive posture to keep them at bay or some form of total defeat of the Russians by a furthur invasion. In reality, are either of these an answer? Nobody has ever managed to totally subdue the Russians going back to the Mongols and a defensive posture commits the Germans to years of fighting. Even with tactit support from the UK and the USA, does Germany have the resources to do this? Would the result be an exhausted Germany, ripe for exploitation by the UK and USA who had been waiting on the sidelines?

Germany could hope that the USSR will fall apart. Or that there will be a revolution like in 1917. However, Germany without the Nazi ideology does not have a lot to win in Russia. So I guess he is looking for the exit.

I use a map in a powerpoint file to follow the movements of the Russians. If someone is able to explain me how to post this as a picture I could share it with you!

[Franconicus]

OPERATION HANNIBAL

Juli 27th. Radio message from HQ 9th Army to Antitank Detachment 653: “Hannibal”.

Juli 29th, HQ of General Rokossovsky, Belarsian Front. Rokossovsky welcomes his chief, Zhukov. “Comrade General, welcome back at the front. Do you bring any news from Stavka?”
“Yes, Konstantin, Stalin is still very pleased! The Germans contacted him to propose a meeting to discuss the chances to end the war. They proposed to meet at Ancara.”
“What did Stalin reply?”
“He said: Why should we meet there? Zhukov will come to Berlin soon!”
“Good reply!”
“Right! And so he ordered me to accelerate the operations. And I forward the order to you!”
Rokossovsky sighs.
“And there is another thing. Churchill and Roosevelt want to meet Stalin too. Looks like the imperialists finally decided to keep on fighting the Germans. Of course Stalin needs a big victory to impress them.”
”Of course!”
“So, Konstantin, what is going on here?”
“We pursued our advance according plan. We were marching along the Desna River and now passed half the distance to Kiev. There is hardly any resistance from the Germans. 60th and 70th Army are our spearheads. 65th, 48th, 13th are covering the flank along the river. 2nd Tank Army is reserve.
Vatutin slowed his advance. He took Konotop and is repairing the railroads. He also gathers his front there.
Koniev is advancing in the south. He got stuck at Sumy. But he tries to catch up.
I asked the commander of the 70th, Galatin, to join us. He can give you more details about the progress.” He opens the door and calls the commander of the 70th Army.
“Galatin, General Zhukov wants to know when you will arrive at Berlin.”
“Well, General Zhukov, until yesterday the Germans did not do much to bother us. In fact we did not see a lot of them last week. We reached the Desna River and followed its banks to the south west. The Germans tried to slow our advance by damaging the roads and using mines. Further more they destructed as much as possible. There is hardly a house or farm or anything else left in the area we operate. Though my tanks can easily pass all obstacles supply cannot. So lack of fuel is limiting our progress. According to the order the advance of the tanks has the highest priority. So infantry, artillery and ATGs fell far behind. My army is now spread over more than 100 km. Some equipment is still at Kursk.
On July 27th we passed the Seim River, a small arm of the Desna. There was a short fight with German antitank units. But we could outmaneuver them and continue our march. However we lost two tanks – two of these new British ones – when we had to go through a swamp.
We started the operation with 125 tanks. We lost ten when for the brake through and since then another 8. Additionally 32 tanks are broken down. Due to the overload of the streets our service company has not been able to repair them. So the combat strength on July 27th was 75 tanks.
All along the march we were under the umbrella of our air army. There was little activity from the Germans. But the more we leave our starting position the thinner is the shield of our air force. German airplanes were not very active. Just two or three planes that followed our advance without attacking. At July 27th the first air attack hit our supply convoys. Although our fighters tried to engage the enemy the supply route was blocked for several hours.
Yesterday we hit strong German resistance for the first time. Our forward troop with 15 tanks was pound of a small forest. They called their commander at once. He decided to attack the German position with 30 tanks while another group of 17 tanks tried to get on the left side of the Germans.
When the frontal attack started it was soon clear that it was a strong position with 15 to 20 guns. The first tanks were destroyed at a distance of 2,000 m. So the commander estimated that the Germans used their 8,8 guns. He emerged the tanks and they run at full speed to get close to the German position. When he was closer he realized that the Germans used a kind of assault guns, at least armored vehicles without turret. Although we had already lost 7 tanks we started firing at the Germans. We saw that several tanks were hit but there was no damage to observe. They kept on firing. When we had lost already 15 tanks the commander ordered to retreat, hoping that our second group was luckier. But although they managed to approach the Germans from the side they could not make it. Just when they wanted to fire at the German tanks a second German formation came out of an ambush and attacked the tanks from the rear. The second German group consisted of 7 Mark III tanks.
Before our tanks could turn they were beaten. In this fight we lost 32 tanks, although 4 are only damaged.
I called for air support but when our planes arrived the enemy was already gone. We occupied the battlefield to secure the damaged tanks. Fortunately the Germans did not attack during night.
70th army’s current combat strength is 43 tanks. Infantry and artillery are far behind.
To answer your question, General, I think it will take some time to reach Berlin.”
Rokossovsky looks sheepish. Zhukov asks: “Tell me more about the German tanks. The first group, are you sure that this is a new type?”
”At least I have never seen them before. Our T34 were almost 500 m in front of them but still they were not able to penetrate them. The other group was the well-known Mark III tanks.”
“How many of these new tanks ambushed you?”
“15 to 20. Plus seven Mark III.”
“Thank you! Return to your army now and get them ready as soon as possible!”
When he left Zhukov turned to Rokossovsky: “What do you think about this?”
“We knew the German had new tank types and these seem to be very effective. At least we should never try to attack them frontal.”
“Right! I wonder if this was just an ambush to stop our advance or the start of the expected German counterstrike.”
Rokossovsky shakes his head. “Would the Germans use their latest and best tanks only for an ambush? Who says that there are not others behind? We know that the Germans still have thousands of tanks.”
“But why then didn’t they attack afterwards. They could have smashed the 70th Army easily?”
“Maybe they were taken by surprise, too. Or they are not fully deployed.”
“Anyway, I must have one of those tanks. Give a warning to all armies and air armies. They shall bring me one and maybe some prisoners too. But they have to be careful. Never attack them head-on. Never attack them if the situation is unclear or if we do not have superior numbers. And use air power!”
“What are your orders now, General Zhukov?”
What is Zhukov going to order?

1. Advance further! The objective is still to cross the Dnjepr as fast as possible. A hand full of German tanks will not stop us. Let the 60th and 70th reach the Dnjepr north of Kiev.
2. Give them a break. Let the armies repair their tanks and get the infantry and artillery to the front. And move your 2nd Tank Army forward to enforce the spearhead. Then advance again.
3. Stop your advance at once. Take a defensive position, take your infantry and ATGs in and entrench. Give the same orders to 2nd Ukrainian and let 1st Ukrainian close ranks.

[Kagemusha]

Number 1).No Soviet Army commander would stop his attack on A skirmish like this.
Franconicus San you are moving fast .My answer to the earlier question the Island agenda is number 2).

[King Kurt]

I am torn between 1 and 2. The Russians need to get to the Dnjepr as soon as possible, but they do seem to be outstripping their supports. I suppose as we are trying to act in character, they would press ahead. Perhaps we could attempt to get more air support to the spearheads and maybe some infantry for tank riding - the Russians must meet some German Infantry based defdence soon - and the Ferdinands were suspect to infantry attack.
So I go for a slightly modified 1

[discovery1]

Change foward with all haste. So 1.

[Kraxis]

Gah!

Zhukov was a keen mind... He would never order a continued attack given the circumstances. He knew when to stop usually (though Seelöw Heights comes to mind). We know what might come now, but Zhukov was much better at this than any of us, so I think we are giving him too little credit here.

But he would never halt completely. Thus #2 is what I believe he would have ordered.

[Franconicus]

Just some more information to you:
70th Army has cureently 79 tanks, 60th Army has 67 (they started with less).
About 50% are ready for combat. Rokossovsky's strongets tank unit is 2nd Tank Army of course with 456 tanks.

I still could not find a way to post my PowerPoint maps. If anybody wants my strategic maps send me your mail adress and I'll send you the files.

Franconicus San you are moving fast
Didn't I say that this is a very mobile war?

[Franconicus]

OPERATION GOMHORRA
July 28th. Despite the ongoing operation at the Eastern Theatre Guderian calls you to an urgent conference to the capitol. On the flight you read about the allied attack against Hamburg. The reports are confusing but it is clear that something terrible happened.
When you touch ground you go straight to the conference of the government. When you look at the other participants you see that some are depressed, some are furious, some are perplexed.
Ameluxen, the Minister of Interior, gives a report about the situation at Hamburg. The town is destroyed completely. The whole infrastructure and administration collapsed. From all over Germany rescue teams are trying to retrieve the cadavers. The survivors took flight and are now spreading all over Germany. It is not possible to determine how many civilians were killed. Maybe between 30,000 and 50,000.
Galland gives a report about the raiders. The first attack was made by the night bombers of the Royal Air Force. They used a new mean to blind our radar. So our night fighters could not find the invaders and the town was almost undefended. The British used a well calculated mixture of demolition bombs and firebombs. This caused a firestorm which run from the center to the outer region. British timing was perfect. People in the shelters choked. Some tried to escape by jumping into wells. They were boiled alive. The town is filled with cadavers.
USAAF and RAF bombers repeated the attack during the next days and nights.
German defense failed completely. This was a bad surprise because the night fighters had been very successful before. But the new mean to block the radar was very effective.
Guderian asks Galland what he intends to do to prevent situations like that in the future.
“Our engineers are frenetic working on a solution. We are sure that our radar will work again soon. We will also increase our home defense forces. Here is my action plan. We have to have a clear priority in fighting the allied air raids. Some of our bomber models like the Ju88 are also very capable night fighters. I want to convert some bomber squadrons into night fighters. We know that bomber pilots can be trained easily to night fighters. Further more we will halve the bomber production to increase the fighter output. And we will train more pilots. During the last 3 days 20,000 young men volunteered to join our fighter squadrons. They only want to stop the bombers from causing more damage and to take revenge.”
Manstein replies: “If you cut the bomber production, this will have a negative effect to our eastern campaign. We need bombers there.”
“We already stopped the bombing of England. That releases some bomber units. There is a complete squadron on the way to the eastern front. But you are right. On the long run you will have fewer bombers. But what are the bombers good for if you do not have fighters to protect them? What are they good for if we cannot stop the allied from destroying our towns?”
Guderian: “Speer, what is the Me262 doing?”
Speer: “We have some technical problems with the turbines. This caused a delay in production. But we will soon be able to equip a test squadron.”
“How will the attack on Hamburg effect the production?”
“Not much! Main target was the population. Of course there is a loss of labor force and the infrastructure was hit. But we can handle this. Together with Ameluxen we will start to move most of the population out of the big cities. And we already started a program to move the production facilities to the western provinces where they cannot be attacked by the British or US bombers.”
Guderian now asks Goebbels how the attack affected the sentiment of the population.
“We made a poll two weeks ago and we repeated it last week. The situation changed significantly. Two weeks ago the people hoped that we could find an agreement with western democracies to end the war. Now they do not see this as a realistic option. They even think that the western nations are worse enemies than the Soviet Union. Most people agree that there is little chance for an early end of war. They think that Germany has to keep on fighting to get better oportunities.
While many people had discussed the option to make a ceasefire in the west or even capitulate this option is gone now. Everybody is sure that GB and the US would not show any mercy and that they would insist on condition even worse than Versailles. Some even think that the British want to exterminate the German population.
Two weeks ago most people were sad that Hitler was gone but they hoped that this would open new opportunities to end the war. Today this has changed. Many people think that Hitler was able to stop the bomb raids or that the allies never dared to attack Hamburg if Hitler was still there. Most people wish that Hitler was still there. They do not believe that the new government will solve the problems.
At Munich and some other towns in the south there were protest demonstrations against the British. People wore their Nazi uniforms and carried Nazi flags”
Suddenly Dönitz bursts in: “It is my entire fault! If I hadn’t stopped the submarine war the British would not have been able to send so many bombers. Many of them had naval equipment. We must start with our attacks at once! The navy will do its duty!”
Guderian replies: “Großadmiral, we have to hear all facts before we decide what to do. But I’d like to make a break right now! I want to discuss a few things with Rommel and Manstein. Let’s meet again this evening.”
When the others were gone Guderian asks you and Rommel: “What do you think about it?”
Rommel replies: “The attack is the most outrageous event in history. I fought the British in Africa. It was always a hard fight – war is never a children’s game – but both sides kept the rules. I cannot understand how they could do it. This attack had only one goal, kill as many civilians as possible. Disgusting!”
Guderian: “Erwin, do not forget that we bombed London and other English towns.”
“I know and that was wrong! But the attack on Hamburg is something else. This is not war, this is not even terror, this is mass murder! If we only could find a way to catch the responsible persons and bring them to trial.”
“Gentlemen, I have to tell you that an American contacted us and offered his help to induce peace talks with the US.”
Manstein: “You mean they want to talk about peace while they kill our people?”
“Yes! What do you want me to answer him?”
Manstein: “Let’s first look at our options. Shall we start to bomb the British towns, again?”
Rommel: “No. Although I would like to strike back, we are not strong enough to impress them.”
Manstein: “Shall we send our submarines again?”
Guderian: “Well, that would force them to use more planes to fight the Battle of the Atlantic. But the losses were too high and situation has not changed. No, let us invest our resources in the fighter program.”
Manstein: “So there is nothing we can do to punish the British right now?” “No.”
Manstein: “So all we can do is to make future raids costly. I think Galland has the right ideas. We must defend our home now. And to this American emissary – tell him that we are willing to negotiate as soon as GB and US cease bombing!”
Guderian: “I agree. It does not make much sense to talk about peace now. German people would not agree to make peace with GB now. We have to bet on the other horse. I think we have to make peace with the Russians. Although Stalin is not willing to make an agreement now, I do not think that the chances are bad. We still occupy a lot of his territory. We can offer it in return for peace. We only have to convince him that he will not be able to get it back with his own forces. Erich, what is ‘Catalaunian’ doing?”
Manstein: “Up to now everything goes right. Model is doing an excellent job. The retreat of the 2nd Army is his masterpiece. Currently it takes the position at Kiev. They destroyed the infrastructure to slow the advance of the Soviets and so far it worked very well. The 2nd Army has only few losses, mainly due to night bombers. But Night Fighter Squadron 5 interferes now and the situation is getting better. I will appoint List as the new commander of the 2nd. Then Model will be able to concentrate on the 9th Army again. I think that Model could be commander of the Heeresgruppe Süd, as soon as the operations are done.
Guderian: “I hope you have success. I do not have to repeat how important these operations are. How are the new tanks doing?”
Manstein: “The Elephants passed their fire test. Model taught the Russians a lesson. However there are still a lot of technical problems. Only half of them are ready for combat, the others are in the garage. I do not think that we can use them in a mobile combat. But we will use them somehow. The Panthers and Tigers have not been involved so far. I hold them back for another surprise! How is the situation in Italy?”
Rommel: “We will have to face an Allied landing at the Italian mainland soon. We are gathering new troops, mainly from France. Sooner or later we will need reinforcements from Russia too.”
Manstein: “I know, but now ‘Catalaunian’ has priority. But I think I will be able to send you the 2nd Army end of September.”
Guderian:”I have another issue I want to talk to you. As Goebbels said the German public is very upset about the British bombings. Some even want the Nazis back. This is very dangerous. I think now it is time to change our politics. I think Goebbels should start the political campaign right now. We will show the crimes of the Nazis. Especially the treatment of political enemies in the KZ. Of course we will also show what they did to the Jews and other nations but the focus will be what the Nazis did to their own fellow countrymen. Next Goebbels will disband the NSDAP and all Nazi organizations. He will retire and give his job to Ameluxen. Then we will try to form new parties and trade units at a local scale and make communal elections. This will help us to secure order and make peace negotiations easier.”
Rommel: “Heinz, you are right. Do it the way you want it. But I have another idea. Take the British POWs and let them straighten Hamburg. I think this will teach them a good lesson.”

No desicions needed today. So relax and enjoy your day!

[King Kurt]

Franconicus

I love the OPERATION GOMHORRA post. It opens up a whole new line - or is it lines - for the story to go. Potentially loads of decisions - subs or fighters, bombers or fighters, east or west, remove the Nazis or renaisance of the Nazis. If the Germans manage to bloody the Russian nose and create a defensive line, the possibility of a German Soviet peace is a possibity with the Germans turning on the UK/ USA - Bomber Harris might have a lot to answer to

I had thought the tread had been becoming a bit predictable, but this changes it all. It had looked all comfortable with all the troops home by Christmas (2005!) but now I can see this running and running. Well done, I can't wait to make some decisions

[Kraxis]

Good chapter... I didn't agree with a lot of the details, but they fit your ideas good so no point in complaining about that, they only open up more juicy options.

And that last one would be good... "Look at what your friends did. Now you get to clean up."

[Franconicus]

Look at this! 35,000 civilians killed and everybody is happy!

- Bomber Harris might have a lot to answer to

Listen, King. The Germans know that four men made the decision for the attack. They still do not know who they are, but they know their code names at least: Kagemusha, King Kurt, discovery1, Kraxis. So you better beware

I didn't agree with a lot of the details

Which ones?

[King Kurt]

Listen, King. The Germans know that four men made the decision for the attack. They still do not know who they are, but they know their code names at least: Kagemusha, King Kurt, discovery1, Kraxis. So you better beware

I believe the standard excuse was "I was only obeying orders"

[Franconicus]

I believe the standard sentence is death.

ROKKOSOVSKI
After Zhukov left Rokossovsky reflects the situation. He knows how important it is to cross the Dnjepr as soon as possible. Germans may not get time to enforce their positions.
Rokossovsky stares at the maps. His front is advancing along the Desna. The river covers the right flank. Belarusian has the longest flank of all. Now they put half of the distance to Kiev behind. It is getting harder to keep the supply coming. And the Germans are still quiet. If they attack now his front will be in trouble.
Vatutin’s 1st Ukrainian has a much better position. He gathers his troops near Konotop and has no open flanks. Konev’s 2nd Ukrainian is still behind plan.
Rokossovsky thinks about his opponents. The Germans still did not face up. This is very unusual. Do they wait at the Dnjepr? Or are they really leaving the country. Rokossovsky shakes his head. After all these hard battles? The Germans won’t give up like that.
The Dnjepr is a very wide river, ideal for defense. There are only few crossings that can be used by an army: Kiev, Tscherkassy, Kremenchug, Dnjepropetrowsk, Saporischja. If the Germans want to withdraw behind the Dnjepr, they have to use those. And if the Soviets want to catch them, they need at least one of them. And Kiev is the most important.
And to get Kiev is his job. He has to follow the Desna, cross it north of Kiew and then cross the Dnjepr too. It would be a big surprise if the Germans are not waiting there. On the way to Kiev he will pass Tschernihiw, a town at the Desna. Maybe the Germans will be there too.
After these reflections Rokossovsky calls his adjutant and gives him orders. The engineers will try to improve the roads and get the supply running. Rokossovsky orders to use a big amount of his AAA to protect the supply routes but even then the air defense shield will be very thin. 65th Army has to send 60 tanks to the 70th. In reply they get the damaged ones. 70th army will advance along the Desna until they reach Tschernihiw, 60th will cut off the bow of the river and go straight to Kiev. The air force will have support groups of fighters and ground attack planes for each spearhead. Additionally each spearhead gets a Cossack unit to reconnoiter behind the German lines.
To Rokossovsky’s surprise everything goes well. Led by the Cossacks 60th and 70th Army advance without meeting German forces. At August 3rd the cavalry espies German fortifications at the entrance of Tschernihiw. They report of strong German forces in the surrounding of the town.
At August 4th the German air force begins a massive strike against the supply convoys north of Konotop. Despite the desperate fight of the AAAs and fighter patrols the German attack leads to high losses and a complete chaos. There is an almost 100km long traffic jam. The Soviets have to use their tanks to clear the street from burned trucks.
At August 5th heavy rain slows the air attacks down. However, rain does not decrease the logistic problems.
At August 5th the 70th Army is only 20 km away from Tschernihiw. The 60th has only 70 km left until they reach Kiev. However, the Cossacks spot a strong defense ring 50 km east of Kiev. It goes from the Dnjepr in the south to the Desna in the north. Both armies had to stop their advance because they had to wait for fuel.
The commander of the 70th Galanin and the commander of the 60th Chernyakhovski ask their commander for more supply and new orders.

Rokossovsky sees these options:

1. Tell the 70th Army to attack Tschernihiw. This town with the crossing is too important to ignore it.
2. Tell the 70th Army to build a defensive ring at the south side of Tschernihiw. It is sufficient to seal the town and its river crossing. Any attack would only divert forces from the main target.
3. Advance forward to Kiev. Tschernihiw is not important. Let the other armies do the job.

a) Tell the 60th to bypass the German position and to cross the Desna north of them.
b) Tell the 60th to break through the German lines.
c) Tell the 60th to wait for reinforcements. Send either the 70th (in case of 3.) or the 2nd Tank Army. Though you loose time the 60th could use it to bring its infantry and artillery as well as engineering equipment to the front.

[Kagemusha]

And The deciseve battle begins.. First number 1.) .We have to make space If we lump all our forces together We are in the world of hurt,we need operational space. second option c) Call the 2.nd Tank army forward so we can start the main assault against Kiev. Im afraid that we are trapped already.Our right flank is open and the German passivity is suggesting that we are about to witness the biggest back hand attack from Germans in the whole war.But there is no turning back anymore.We have a 100km traffic jam behind us so the only option is to punch straight through the German defensive line.Are there any news from the Partisans in the depth of the German defense.What divisions are spotted and where?

[Franconicus]

Kagemusha,
Most of the partisans were located between Kursk and Kiev. So in fact they are behind the Soviet front now.

Of course we have some information from the Cossacks, the air force, POWs and intelligence. I try to give you a summary.

North of the Desna from Bryansk to Tschernihiw there is the 35th, 53rd and 55th Corps of the 2nd Tank Army (although they do not seem to have many tanks).

At Tschernihiw there seems to be another corps. Of cause we have very little information what is in the rear.

The Germans have their position all along the western bank of the Dnjepr. Kiev is full of troops. They seem to belong to the 2nd Army. It is not clear if they will stay there or if they just cross the river and move somewhere else.
Another corps of the 2nd (13th) is still southeast of Kiev. They move to the town too and are followed by Konev.

There is still another corps (7th) of the 2nd Aermy still at Charkov.

South of Charkov there is the 1st Tank Army, further south the 6th Army.

We will send more planes to search the big German tank formations. Give you more info soon.

Do you still have a general view?

[discovery1]

1b. KILLL GERMANS!

[Kagemusha]

Here is a little map i drew about the Soviet situation:(Franc is this completely wrong?I think i know where the center of the attack is but im not so sure about the flanks)

[discovery1]

Franconicus, could you email me those power point slides? my hotmail should be in my profile. Thanks.

[Kraxis]

We are bound now... So we have to make the choices that the Russians would.

1 and c. Everything seems to go well, so some sort of advance must be made, but now is the time for a 'rest' to letthe infantry catch up for the proper attacks. Since the Germans are already well placed it would be foolish to attack them piecemeal, unless there is a local superiority.

The details I do not agree with:
The 20,000 volounteers. Germany had few reserves left by then, men would not be allowed to just volounteer from their civil jobs (Total War now).

The Germans would not change their stance in regards to the Allies. They would hate them for what they did, but surprisingly they haven't since held a true grudge for anything but the last few attacks (Dresden the most infamous). They would never jump into the other boat and dislike the Russians less, propaganda has kept the contempt, fear and anger pretty high. Besides the Germans were staunch... the bombing only made them rally around their leaders and themselves. If anything the bombing made them tougher and more liekly to resist the Allies (though you have factored that, you have it come from a fear prospect rather than from a sense of duty).

The German leaders would never consider their own bombings to be terrorbombing outright. The practice was to bomb when an enemy was on the verge of breaking, so a need for a costly citybattle was averted. In Britain it was a little different, here the Lufwaffe actiavely tried to hit the industry. Coventry was important in the this regard, and in London they targeted the docks with their large stores of supplies and such. To them the industry and other strategic targets were first, any loss of life (and thus a lowering of morale) was just a bonus so to say. The Allies was directly opposite, kill civilians, destroyed industry was just added benefit.

Also they would not turn tail too and look to the east. They would still want a peace with the west. Whiel they did not have the pathological hatred of the Communists that Hitler had, they most certainly were Paternal Autocrats (played HOI you know what I mean). They didn't like the Russians and Communists either, thinking they were going to be wholly unreasonable and brutal. They would jsut have preferred to stay well away from war with the SU alltogether, but now it is the priority.
They would understand that the bombing was only a means to get a stronger bargainingchip, that the Allies would prosecute a strong war for as long as the war was on.