Alternate History:The Thirty Years War

[Lord Winter]

Not sure if this will influence any of your decisions but Christen V is a Prince of the empire.

[AntiochusIII]

No, it won't. A traitor, be it prince or emperor, is a traitor all the same.

While I'd rather choose 1B for the negotiations with the Poles, still waiting to see how It'd go, Maximilian is needed to return to gather the Bavarian forces for your support. This campaign needs to be done quickly lest it escalates too far, so we would require all the fists we have. Call him back: 1C.

2A: Let there be war. If Denmark is too well-fortified to be attacked directly, lure the cunning Danes out. Take this opportunity and solve some of the quagmire of the Imperial administrations, too -- after conquering each rebellious prince's territory, of course. A United Holy Roman Empire is something Europe hadn't see for centuries, and would be formidable indeed. Right now, too many taxes flow into the princes' coffers, and too many souls swear the wrong oath of loyalty. If we bring them back to the fold, we are unstoppable.

[Franconicus]

1) On the Poles

C. Call Maximillian back and end any negations the price might be too much.

2) On the Germen Princes

B. Demand Denmark stop on threat of war. War will come any way since Christian is the proclaimed champion of Protestantism.

[Lord Winter]

You sigh it seems that war can no longer be delayed. The Danes have interfered with your authority before, but this time they have stepped to far. You cannot let them usurper your authority anymore so you call for writing materials and write out an edict:

Hence forth all sovereign princes of the empire found dealing with the Danes will be outlawed. The Empire demands a halt on all diplomatic activity on the part of Denmark.
Frederiand II
Holy Roman Emperor, Elector of Bohemia, Archduke of Styria, and King of Hungray

On the whole Germen princes hate it when the Emperor interferes, and this time proves to be no exception. The Lower Saxon Circle are enraged and makes clear that they no longer consider you there liege. As if on cue Denmark declares war to “liberate” Germany of your rule.

Meanwhile Count Tilly request permission to move into the Lower Saxon Circle it would bring the standard devastation of war it could be worth it in the face of a
possibility crush the Rebels.

The recruitment of your forces is not quite finished, but the 16,000 already raised could be made ready to move once supplies are dealt with. But the month in the half march means that there won’t be much time to do anything but find winter quarters before the cold snows of December fall.

The Henistic league is a matter of concern. Should they side with the rebels it would constitute a serious threat. Your advisers however, are confident that a hefty bribe can stop any Henistic interest in this war.

There are mercenaries available for hire in the region. Your treasury is limited but if you decide to carry out the bribe you could realistically hire 2,000-3,000 troops instead of the 7,000-10,000 mercenaries you could currently sustain now.

1) On Tilly and the Lower Saxon Circle
A. Cross
B. Don’t cross

2) The movement of your army
A. Wait for the supplies to be arrange then order Buquoy to the Lower Saxon circle to support Tilly. The result of the war is not going to be changed with a few weeks delay.
B. March out immediately and live off the land while the supplies are arranged farther ahead.
C. Keep the army in reserve, After all there is still the French and English to be worried about.

3) On the Henistic League
A. Send an diplomat and try to convince the Henistic league that they have nothing to gain in the war. (no bribes or blackmail)
B. Send a diplomat to bribe the league to stay neutral.
C. Go your self
D. Send Maximillian

4) On the mercenaries (chose two)
A. Hire 500 Greek light Calvary, Greek light Calvary are considered some of the best in the world and will certainly help against the Swedes, if war comes.
B. Hire 1,000 Spanish mercenaries, The Spanish Tercio are some of the best trained infantry in the world.
C. Hire 1,000 Swiss pike-men, Very well trained infantry they are well worth there cost in the face of Calvary.
D. Hire 700 germen Calvary pistolers. Good Calvary but most of your Calvary force is similar.
E. Hire 2,000 germen pikemen, Even thou there less experienced then the Swiss, there still soild pikemen at a low cost.

[Knight Templar]

1A If Saxonian duke is not punished, other electrors could also turn back.
2A
3B it's not wise to have one more enemy if it can be avoided
4B and A. Well trained and disciplined army can be key to victory in any battle.

[King Henry V]

I would cross into the Lower Saxon Circle. These impudent Saxons need to be taught a lesson, so that they may think twice before defying His Imperial Majesty. However, it must be remembered that it is the princes', not the people's fault, so I advise against living off the land. However, this problem need to be dealt with, so it will have to be delayed for supplies to arrive.
I presume you refer to the Hanseatic League, as I have found no results on Google for Henistic League.
The Hanseatic League is on its last legs and has been in decline ever since the 16th century. It is imploding, Holland and England are fierce competitors, and their southern trade routes have been threatened by the Turks. I suggest therefore that the Emperor goes himself to Lübeck to talk with the Hanseatic League, and make it clear that though the Empire has no wish for war with the most venerable league, but should they oppose his illustrious majesty during the coming campaign against the rebellious Saxons, then he will have no choice but to wage war against the Hanse, with all the consequences that may entail. Lübeck is also near to where the real action will be taking place.
For the mercenaries, I would hire the German pikemen and the Greek cavalry, as numbers (twice the size in this case) are sometimes more important than experience.

[AntiochusIII]

What are the Spanish mercenaries? Are they swordsmen, pikemen, or gunmen? What are their strengths?

1A: The Emperor is supreme. Anyone who is against him seeks death and punishment. Let there be war, I say.

2A: Though the nobles have rebelled, Saxony is still an Imperial territory, so I'd rather have supplies prepared than pillage the land. After all, look at what the real war did to the real Germany...

3C: I agree with King Henry, the Hanseatic League isn't the power that it once was. They should be wise to support us, especially since your presence will force their decision immediately. Should they rise up against us, the new army would still be in the area for a punitive campaign against them.

4...not sure yet, because I don't know what the Spanish troops are...

However, I'd like to recruit:

A, the Greek mercenaries will provide excellent light cavalry as reserve, tactical maneuvers, skirmish, and reconnaissance.

This one not sure yet...but C would be my choice if the Spanish aren't more useful. The Swiss has a reputation, tradition, and martial prowess of centuries behind them: in battle, routs are the cause of most deaths and defeats. The Germans might not be so inclined to fight their countrymen compare to the professional Swiss forces. And I don't think we need more cavalry than we already do. The Greeks and what we've already raised would probably do fine.

Should Swedish cavalry comes, they will face a worthy foe in them.

[Kraxis]

Tilly is a good general... And he is willing to fight for you currently. Let him go.
1A

Since Tilly will be making trouble up there and waving the Imperial flag for you, there is hardly any need for the Imperial army currently. It can wait until it is ready, no need to risk it in the winter and understrength. Keep it at 2C.

The League... Well, their money might help, but their fleet might help even more against Denmark and Sweden (while Denmark is the strongest, Sweden is not to be trifled with either on the waves). Send Maxi since he is doing nothing at the moment. 3D

Ah the mercs... I haven't understood exactly how many we can hire since obviously they cost different amounts.
But is clear the Greek lights are important, so get those, but besides them we need punch! And that means numbers. Get the German pikemen, they are cheap but should still be good enough, and in time when we have plundered Saxony we could hire the Swiss. Not to forget that large numbers of pikes will help a great deal against the Swedish cavalry, letting our own cavlry win.
So it is 4A and E

[King Kurt]

On the whole - I agree with Kraxis's analysis. My only disagreement - I would for 1,000 Spanish as opposed to 2,000 German pike - I think 1,000 quality troops are better than 2,000 OK ones.

[Franconicus]

Here is my decision:
1) On Tilly and the Lower Saxon Circle
A. Cross
We have to show them who is their master!

2) The movement of your army
C. Keep the army in reserve,
This is not a sprint, this is a marathon.

3) On the Henistic League
D. Send Maximillian

4) On the mercenaries (chose two)
I would prefer to save the money and hire none at all. Is this an option?
If not then take:
E. Hire 2,000 germen pikemen, Even thou there less experienced then the Swiss, there still soild pikemen at a low cost.
Number counts. And they are Germans, so our army will be more homogeneous. However, it will be harder to supply them!
And the Greek cavalry!

[King Kurt]

2) The movement of your army
C. Keep the army in reserve,
This is not a sprint, this is a marathon.
[B]

Franc

Glad to see you are paying attention to my posts in other threads!!

[Franconicus]

It is always good to quote great persons!

I forgot to mention: we must get information what is going on in other countries. Are they hiring mercs, are the armies ready?

[Kraxis]

On the whole - I agree with Kraxis's analysis. My only disagreement - I would for 1,000 Spanish as opposed to 2,000 German pike - I think 1,000 quality troops are better than 2,000 OK ones.

Well, against Denmark we will need numbers. We are simply too even in strength. We have likely the edge with generals, but they have the troops. Good generals with lesser troops almost always beat lesser generals with better troops.
Besides, we will need the pikes later against Sweden. The more troops their cavalry can't attack easily the better for us. The Spanish troops will get eaten for lunch by the Swedish cavalry (the Greeks won't be enough to counter them). Not good if they are going to be important to us.
Besides the Germans are still good (not some kind of levy) just not as good as the Swiss. And personally if it comes down to the difference in will the battle is likely already lost for us.
Also Germans will likely be more willing to fight invaders than Spanish or Swiss.

[Lord Winter]

There have been some misunderstandings, the elector of Saxony him self is not in rebellion (he is Protestant thou). It is just an area by Saxony know as the lower Saxon circle.

The Spanish mercenary are a elite muskets and pikes, along with some sword and buckler infantry.
@Franconicus Doing nothing is always an option

As for information on other armies there is rumors that the English are raising an army, The Danes have an army of around 20,000 now and are rapidly recruiting with the support of the rest of the LSC.

[Kraxis]

My points stand... The Spanish seems to be too few to properly form a 'small' army of their own. Either arm will be too weak to do it's job. And with Denmark rapidly increasing it's strength we need to follow suit with numbers at least. Solid pikes always anchor the line well.

[King Kurt]

My points stand... The Spanish seems to be too few to properly form a 'small' army of their own. Either arm will be too weak to do it's job. And with Denmark rapidly increasing it's strength we need to follow suit with numbers at least. Solid pikes always anchor the line well.

I assume that we are adding to the 7-10,000 mercanaries we already have. I still think a 1,000 strong tercio is desirable over 2,000 average pikes - numbers only work if they don't run away! Also the mixed nature of the tercio - pikes, muskets and sword and buckler men - is more versatile. As for the swedes - I would worry more about their infantry and volley firing than their cavalry - not that their cavalry is to be sniffed at mind you.
The debate on numbers vs quality is always keen and close - it is just that my feeling is always for quality over quantity.

[Kalle]

I dont believe 1000 men is enough to form a tercio??

Anyways, the Swedes excelled at taking down these cumbersome inflexible formations and adding more of that will not help if its the Swedes we worry about, doesnt matter if its spanish or germans forming the tercio.

Gustavus II Adolphus won most of his international fame through the battle of Breitenfeld where he proved the spanish school of fighting obsolete.

Of course we wouldnt know this if we roleplay us back in time but with hindsight we know it and if hindsight is ok to use then we need to recruit something else or develop our battlefieldtactics.

The Danes are not to be taken lightly either. They still are ranked as baltic power nr 1 and are rich due to the rather newly recieved "Älvsborgs lösen" (payed by sweden with great effort) and the cashcow of "öresundstullen".

Kalle

[Kraxis]

'Øresundstolden' thank you.

The Germans aren't bad, just not as good as the Swiss.
I'm normally a sucker for quality, but our regular army should be good enough. We just need strength in fairly good numbers to make sure we are not going to be outnumbered and thus easily outflanked.
We have to assume that Denmark goes for quality, but with less impressive commandship their best bet is the most simple way of winning fast, overlapping. We must stop that.

And while I couldn't remember it, there was something that had been nagging me about the Spanish, and it is likely what Kalle said, the outdatedness of their system. And I said before that 1000 would be too few for a proper tercio.

[Ironside]

And while I couldn't remember it, there was something that had been nagging me about the Spanish, and it is likely what Kalle said, the outdatedness of their system. And I said before that 1000 would be too few for a proper tercio.

Well the tercio still rules supreme at the current time IIRC. The numbers is still an issue though.

1A
Cross. Not attacking won't gain anything as it's doubtful that the rebels will have a change of heart and it's better to strike now than after they've prepared.

2C
Better check what the enemy will do as you can't really use it yet and summon it together will deplete it by default (diseases). Tilly is up there anyway.

3D
Poor Maximillian running around like this. Simply keeping them away from the war should be enough and the cost/benefit ratio for bribing seems too high in this case.

4 A and E
Good harrasing cav is always useful, especially if the enemy isn't used to them. And a large number of decent quality pikes is quite useful.

[Psiloi]

http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/TercioUK.html

Historically the division of our game in "spears, swords..." with the swords eat spear without problems is not true. At the beginning of the XVI century the spanish had swordsmen (rodeleros), but by 1550 the rodeleros (and the halberdiers) dissapeared; the Pikemen with sword could assume the role of universal shock units.

The regular Tercio had 3000 men, but, there were many tercios with only 1000 men, curiously the perfect Tercio that we need was fighting in Germany at 1622: the Tercio of Lombardía http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/organisationUK.html with 1175 men in 16 companies of 83 men. We should think that the numbers of weapon was the standard by that time in the spanish army: 30% pikemen and 60% gunmen (plus officers)

As we see, the deployment of the troops was in the XVII century a centre of pikemen and only two "mangas" of gunmen (four in the XVI century)

The tercio of 1601 (the entire army of Flandes, only spanish)

6000 men

10% officers
33,4 % Pikemen
35'5 % Arquebusiers
20% Musketeers

A tercio of 1630 (5.4 Evolution of the tactic of the Tercios in the XVII century) http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/TactiqueUk.html had

370 Pikemen
120 Arquebusiers
550 Musketeers


Our Tercio of Lombardía should be in the middle of both.


Right guys, those are our spanish friends.

[Incongruous]

) On Tilly and the Lower Saxon Circle
A. Cross, a quick decisive strike against Denmark in anyway is good and would give you stability on the northern frontier with Denmark giving you all the bargaining chips.


2) The movement of your army
A. Wait for the supplies to be arrange then order Buquoy to the Lower Saxon circle to support Tilly. The result of the war is not going to be changed with a few weeks delay. As you are moving first play it safe and ry not to upset the local protestants.
3) On the Henistic League
D. Send Maximillian, make it look like you really care by sending you're second in command

4) On the mercenaries (chose two)
B. Hire 1,000 Spanish mercenaries, The Spanish Tercio are some of the best trained infantry in the world. Veterans can often knock out twice their number in green troops. They would be usefull ina quick strike into LSC or Denmark.

[Ludens]

Destroyer of Hope, is Interactive History still running?

[Lord Winter]

I am afraid i am going to have to abandon it. I have had little time to write and research due to School. Also i feel like i have chosen one of the worst viewpoints and start times, Tilly or Wallenstein would probably been the better. I would like to thank every one who participated in this.

[Kraxis]

Hmm... that's sad...

But given the room we have here, you can always return to it without people actually having forgotten it.

[Ludens]

Pity. Well, at least you lived up to your name .