Alternate History:The Thirty Years War

[Lord Winter]

I thought I would start a new alternate history about the 30 years war The Rules will be very similar to King Henry V alternate history. First three post decide with the tie going to the first post. First two posters can suggest other options. Any comments on writing style, relism or hitorical accuracy are welcomed.

Historically The 30 years war marked the end of the Holy Roman Empire as a major power. The war was fought under the banner of religion between the Catholics and the Protestants although many rulers used it for political means. The right decision could change the outcome of the war however.




You are Ferdinand II Holy Roman Emperor. Since the start of your reign five years ago the Empire had been engaged in civil war against the Protestant elector Fredrick V this rebellion has been crushed but the future of the Holy Roman Empire is far from certain. Religious unrest is widespread as Catholics and Protestants fight each other in the over their religion. France, the Dutch and England have all expressed there hate against your house, the Hapsburgs. Europe is dived into to two leagues: the Catholic league you are apart of and the Protestant league which your enemies belong too. War is now imminent and if the Holy Roman Empire is too survive swift action needs to be taken.

It is a typical meeting between you the electors of the Holy Roman Empire and the ambassadors from Spain and the Catholic league. The standard maneuvering for political advantage sometimes makes you sick. But nether-the-less you feel it is just one of the things you must put up with for the sake of the Empire.

As the last of the council sorts into the room you stand to make the opening speech:

“Honorable Electors and ambassadors, as you all know the realm and the Catholic league are far from safe, a collation of nations has formed against the great power of the Holy Roman Empire and her rulers the Hapsburgs. We must now decide our next step of action, I am open to suggestions”

“Christian of Denmark has been known to speak about his wish of challenging the catholic league; if we were to presumptively invade Denmark it would limit the damage the war would cause and give us a foothold in the mostly protestant Baltic”, the elector of Saxony suggested.

“My lord, as you know your cousin has requested your help against the Dutch. By helping the Spanish you would free more of her forces if you need Spain’s help again,” your cousin’s ambassador voiced. You see some promise in helping your cousin for you have favors to repay for his help against Fredrick V. The Dutch have also been trying to rally many of the German princes in rebellion against the Catholic League.

“May I suggest allying with Poland? By doing so we would gain an ally who may help us if Sweden invades.” Maximillian of Bavaria, leader of the Catholic alliance and your chief ally suggests. You also see advantages in this plan. Gustavus Adolphus the king of Sweden has wished many times that he wasn’t at war at Poland so he could play the role of champion to the protestant cause.
It is now time for you to decide



1. Presumptively invade Denmark, doing so would keep the devastating impacts of war off Hapsburg land and would give you a foothold in the Baltic.

2. Attack the Dutch at Spain’s request: this would free up additional Spanish forces and get rid of a member of the anti Hapsburg league.

3. Ally in Poland in hopes of gaining support in the event of an Swedish invasion.

[Franconicus]

Destroyer, thanks for this new story and good luck!
What year do we start?

I would prefer 2 and 3. Attack the Dutch and secure your rear with an alliance. But if I have to chose it is 3. Before we start a war, let's find allies!

May Habsburg rule forever!

[Rodion Romanovich]

I agree, 3 is my choice, own alliances are always good, when enemies ally against you. Poland being catholic can still keep good relations with the pope and catholic side, which would make it politically tougher for the hostile alliance to justify an attack, although far from impossible. On the other hand this stiffens relations with the protestants, but it's probably worse with a potential war with the catholic nations. In any case Poland also shares interests by wanting to defend against a possible Swedish alliance, so without making any real choices of side in the religious aspect, it's possible to ally with Poland.

The second option is no. 2, but as it involves choosing side religiously, it's less desirable. On the other hand, if it turns out impossible to balance between the religions and at the same time meet demands of the protestants and those of the catholics, choosing side in the religious aspect is necessary. Then, the catholic side would be preferable, due to numbers, and it seems slightly more strongly united than the protestant side. Denmark and Sweden for instance don't seem to care much for peace internally, despite both being protestants. Then, the Dutch seem the best target, as they're trying to rally help from German provinces, which may turn out dangerous. Freeing up troops is always a good thing, also. Hopefully the war can be won before the Swedish or others invade, and if not, the Spanish have at least done fairly well in the war so far, so there's no hurry sending back German troops to the Dutch front after a Swedish attack has been dealt with, especially not if the German attack can cause enough damage to the Dutch fighting forces, and not just their morale.

By the way no. 1 would potentially hurt an important opponent of Sweden. To even make Denmark fight Sweden as an ally of us, if possible, would be useful to arrange.

Edit: corrected a mistake

[Franconicus]

To my understanding: We are already part of the Catholic League - maybe even the leader - aren't we? So sides are clear. And our political goal is to regain the power and the unity of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation, right? That means, whipe out protestantism!

Wait a monment! What amI doing here. I am a Lutheran myself

[Rodion Romanovich]

Yes, I realized I was unclear at that point. What I meant was that religion itself is in this case just a political tool . We're allied to the catholic league militarily, but that doesn't necessarily force us to be good catholics and fight all who are protestants. The protestants who aren't protestants but just rebels but claim protestantism for the sake of forming a strong alliance for their own causes, can for instance be separated from those who are more strongly supporting the protestantism. If the protestantic faith could be fought while meeting some demands of those claiming to be protestants, the pope would be happy, and many rebels would lose incentive for their rebellion (of course this must be done in a clever and careful way, not making the rebels feel their uprising or lack of strength to subdue them caused it, if possible - so the no.2, dutch choice, might be preferable. A great victory there followed by fairly just terms would work fine IMO). If at the same time keeping the prestige and respect of the army and strength of the empire high, it would be a good procedure. So that was my thought... when the protestants are true protestants there's no interest for us in fighting them, but if they're claiming to be protestants to join "the protestantic side" militarily to go against us, then we fight them. If they uphold the illusion of being protestants, so much better for us, because then the pope can't do anything but smile and thank us for having defeated some of the "protestantism"

[cegorach]

There is another factor you should consider:

Polish king already helped the Hapsburgs sending mercenary army in 1619 lifting the siege of Vienna, still Hapsburgs were very unpopular in Poland since they tried to enforce its elected candidate for a king in 1588 - so beeing cautious is wise.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hm, that's interesting. However, if the Swedish attack hits Poland first, I'm sure they'll be thankful for an alliance. Our benefit from it is clear in that we can then hopefully stop the Swedish army before it reaches German lands, and that two armies are stronger than one. My suggestion is that we go for the Polish alliance, but keep in mind that it might be broken at the most inappropriate time. But actually when I think about it the optimal thing seems to be to go for both 2 and 3, if possible.

I'm sorry, this is my first alternative history, so I don't know the exact rules. Are we allowed to choose more than one option in cases where they aren't mutually exclusive?

[Franconicus]

Sorry Legio, I do not agree. We have to erase Protestantism! We need one empire with one religion. Everything else can only be a temporary, tactical compromise.

[King Kurt]

Looks like the begining of another great thread - what with rewriting WW2 history and helping King Stephen, how am I going to get any work done!

I say go with the Poles. Militarily they are strong , and they bring some contrasting troop types to the party. Their central European position also makes them strategically very important.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Sorry Legio, I do not agree. We have to erase Protestantism! We need one empire with one religion. Everything else can only be a temporary, tactical compromise.

Ok then, I'm in a giving mood today so I'll change my plans according to your wish But it'll make things much more difficult...

Either way my choice remains a combination of no. 2 and no. 3 or one of them if a combination is impossible...

[Kagemusha]

Great! A new alternate history!Wait, we are the Habsburgs,Aargh now i have to go to war against my Finish country men fighting for the Swedish King. Hmm.. anyway, I choose the option number 3.

[Kraxis]

Good to see people have a good sense of strategy.

To attack Denmark looks like an easy option, the Catholic armies should fairly easily win against the Danish field armies... or so we would believe, but the battle of Lüberger Heide was extremely close and was mainly lost because Christian had only weeks ahead fallen from the battlements of Rendsborg, and it seems lost part of his sanity as a result of the impact. Also Denmark was at the time riddled with fortifications and had a very strong fleet that the HRE has no chance of opposing propely, so it would be Jutland alone after problematic assaults and sieges. Not good at all, but it gets worse.

Denmark and Sweden are not exactly at war, but it could hardly be closer to it (as usual at the time), not only would an attack rid us of the chance to ally with either against the other, but it would in fact put both on the same side. Sweden would likely jump at the chance to 'save' Denmark and thus appear that much better.

Lastly, the attack into Jutland would bottle up important armies in an easily blockaded peninsula. If the Swedish finished up in Poland, or made a seperate peace they would be in a superb position to take Hamburg and Lübeck cutting off the HRE army in Jutland, and with the Danish (and possibly the Swedish) Navy keeping taps on the sea traffic the army would have to surrender at some point.

[Lord Winter]

The year is 1623

To my understanding: We are already part of the Catholic League - maybe even the leader - aren't we? So sides are clear. And our political goal is to regain the power and the unity of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation, right? That means, whipe out protestantism!

That is basically the goal. Officially Maximillian of Baviria is the leader, but you are leader in all but name. I don't see any way of Ferdinand converting even for politics. he had to be one of the most conservative catholics out there.

@Leigo you could go with two options but it looks like you are out voted.

As for Sweden and the poles the only reason Gustavus hasn't invaded the HRE yet is because of his war in Poland. so we'll see how Sweden and Poland reacts. Thank you for all of your support
DoH

[Watchman]

Historically, Poland stayed the heck away from the war in Germany. They didn't really have any reason to get involved anyway, if only because military adventurism wasn't a big hit amongst the ruling class (who were doing pretty well as was, and busy dividing Ukraine) and the drawn-out mess didn't exactly offer very good expense-profit projections. And I don't think there was any love lost between the Habsburgs and the Polish Vasas either; the Poles had a long history of seeing off German expansionism...

As far as religious divides go, keep in mind that the patently Catholic French monarchs were only too happy to help Protestants, or for that matter anyone else, against their old (and also patently Catholic) Habsburg arch-fiends... although they spent most of the war providing financial support; when they finally joined in openly they had some catching-up to do in military matters (not having fought a major war in quite a while, and hence a tad behind the times), but were soon able to pretty much knock Spain out of the equation and cause considerable problems to Imperial regions in Western parts of Germany.

Invading the Netherlands would have been more than little pointless. The Spanish had been warring there for decades already, to rather little avail - the TYW was one of those periods when fortifications *really* counted, and tended to utterly frusrate many an ambitious campaign. Sending German troops there would merely have diverted resources from fighting the Emperor's domestic foes and bogged them down in the morass. Heck, despite having to maintain pressure on the Dutch front the Spanish Habsburgs were nonetheless perfectly capable of sending substantial troops and other resources to the aid of their German kinsmen anyway...

The Emperor could most likely have walked all over Denmark if he wanted to - indeed, I seem to recall there having been a brief skirmish between the Danes and the Imperials, which persuaded the former to remain uninvolved - but would then run into the exact same problem as the Swedes did late in the war when war broke out between them and the Danes. The hardened Swedish main field army in Germany, quick-marched to the Baltic, brushed aside all resistance with contemptuous ease... until they arrived at the shore. The thing is, the Danish "heartlands" were on the islands; and they were *the* naval superpower in the Baltic. Having a land army zillion times as strong as theirs didn't amount to zilch if you couldn't ship all those buggers over the straits in the face of the Danish navy...

In a sense the "teams" were rather set from the start of the war, and there was likely very little the Holy Roman Emperor could do to alter them. He was pretty much quaranteed the aid of his Habsburg kin in other realms, notably Spain and Austria, so much as their own issues (like the Spanish war in the Netherlands) allowed them to spare. The French Bourbons were pretty much quaranteed to happily support just about any enemy of the rival dynasty. The Swedish entry into the war, while not exactly quaranteed, was highly likely given the ambitions of its leaders and its rising stars; that that entry, should it happen, would be to the detriment of the Habsburgs, *was* a given, and the interests of the two dynasties were too diametrically opposed for there to be much possibility of "talking it out". The Danish were opportunists; mostly they were content to tax the trade passing through the straits, but weren't adverse to some military adventurism if they figured they could get away with it - both the Imperials and the Swedes had to divert armies to see off these ambitions on occasion. The Poles didn't really even care; I understand the reigning king would have been quite keen on meddling in the German war, but was bluntly overruled by the nobility who could see no point in such risky and expensive projects. The Dutch, well, they had their hands full holding off the Spanish, but other than that they made an absolute killing selling supplies to the foes of the Habsburgs... The English seem to have maintained a total hands-off approach to the Continental troubles.

And the political map of the Holy Roman Empire itself was an utter mess even at the best of times, with endless petty freetowns, baronies, sprawling fiefdoms, Papal holdings and God only knows what else with their monumental tangle of privileges, agreements, dues and so on making it hard to keep track of and steer in some common direction even when half of it wasn't in direct armed rebellion against the Emperor... Catholic lordlings tended to side with the Emperor, and Protestant ones usually sided with each other against him, but that wasn't even close to a given (many were only too happy to sit in the sidelines and try to pick the winning side) and the sheer naked political opportunism involved would have made Macchiavelli lift a quizzical eyebrow.

[cegorach]

With full knowledge of Polish internal and external situation I would choose option 3, but with some modifications:

1. Mutual help, but rather in the form of money for Poland - imperial tropps usually caused more problems than they solved and their forces marching through Poland would cause some anti-Hapsburg feelings, especially if you consider the appaling lack of discipline at that time.
In return some form of Polish 'mercenary legion' would be a good option - in similar way to 1680s when before the official Polish army arrived Lubomirski's mercenary troops were already engaged.

2. Poland is already at war vs. Sweden and there is a growing tension with Russia and the Ottomans. For this reason money would be good as soon as possible to prolong the conflict with Sweden.

3. Some diplomatic efforts in fending off French diplomacy trying to mediate and to encourage Swedes to invade Germany is required. Countering French efforts is required the most.

Of course if I can propose something like this.

Regards Cegorach

[Kraxis]

The Emperor could most likely have walked all over Denmark if he wanted to - indeed, I seem to recall there having been a brief skirmish between the Danes and the Imperials, which persuaded the former to remain uninvolved - but would then run into the exact same problem as the Swedes did late in the war when war broke out between them and the Danes. The hardened Swedish main field army in Germany, quick-marched to the Baltic, brushed aside all resistance with contemptuous ease... until they arrived at the shore. The thing is, the Danish "heartlands" were on the islands; and they were *the* naval superpower in the Baltic. Having a land army zillion times as strong as theirs didn't amount to zilch if you couldn't ship all those buggers over the straits in the face of the Danish navy...

Good analysis, similar to my own.
But you downplay the Batle of Lutter am Barenberg, it was a full battle and it was extremely close. It was indeed a Danish defeat, but it could as easily have gone the other way. Had that happened then who know what had happened... But it didn't and the Danish army was basically lost (mercenaries tend to not hang around after defeats).

[Lord Winter]

With your decision made you begin to speech: “I will go with the advice of my ally Maximillian of Bavaria, the Holy Roman Empire will seek an alliance with the ruler of Poland.”

Out the corner of your eye you see Maximillian smile. You study the reactions of the other electors. One in particular jumps out to you; the elector of Saxony looks frustrated; his lands are closest to the Danish boarder. Making a note to do something about him you listen to the rest of the electors argue out the vices and virtues of the alliance.

After a short debate the majority of the electors agree to carry out your plan. The meeting is dismissed upon the pretext that you will organize all the details. You now must decide the fine points of the alliance.

1. On how the negations will be handled.

A. Go your self, it would probably be the most efficient but it would leave you in a position where you could not be able to contact the Holy Roman Empire without some delay in the case of the pending crisis with the Protestants.

B. Send Maximillian, he is the head of the catholic league after-all and may carry more weight in the negations to join the league if you chose to go that way.

C. Send one of the other electors of the Holy Roman Empire, you may want Maximillian advise latter and you may not be able to spare yourself now.

2. On how to support Poland

A. Keep the alliance secret and only send money in the hope of prolonging the conflict with Sweden.
B. Incorporate them in to the catholic league; they would then be able to request soldiers and funds. You could maybe get more of the league to pay and not just the Holy Roman Empire.
C. Directly declare war against Sweden and send in soldiers in support. While you would probably need the soldiers latter, there is the hope that with the extra soldiers you could decisively defeat the Swedes in battle,


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Just a note historicly Denmark invades you in around 6 months so they have the majority of there forces ready and could very well invade if they saw a weakness or thought they could bribe someone to join there cause.

[IrishMike]

Sorry to join in this after the first round.

I would say that going in person would be most unwise with denmark still a considerable threat. Therefore it would be best to stay. I'd say option B with sending Maximillian would be best. It would give poland a sense of importance and perhaps help bolster them a bit.

Secondly I'd go option B in Incorporating them. If you go overboard it may cost you too much. If you don't help enough they feel disenfranchised and not be so helpful later on. So once again the middle route appears to be the best.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I don't know who to send, but going myself could be risky, for various reasons. But for 2, I suggest a new idea not mentioned (see at the bottom of post if you don't want to read all the following text).

Paying money in secret won't give us any credit for our helpfulness, and not score us a point in popularity with the Polish people. The Polish leaders could therefore, should they defeat the Swedish, use the money against us.

Incorporating the Polish into the catholic league strengthens the league militarily, but also unnerves the protestants, feeling their support being limited, and the majority of countries and people being against them in their ideological war. By incorporating them in the league, it could be possible to arrange for several to send aid to the Polish, and perhaps in some way get the pope to preach in favor of all true catholics to send at least something to aid the Polish in Poland. That would take a possible future conflict from the German lands, as well. But we don't want the pope to go too far and require all true catholics to send troops into Poland. We don't want troops there in case the Danish attack, or the by Dutch rallied rebels attack somewhere. Therefore, we must be careful in trying to convice others to join.

There are so many outside threats that one of them needs to be knocked out quickly. By strategical principle, the weakest should be dealt with first, to free up troops quickly for the other fronts/threats. Although the Swedish are probably one of the stronger, an offensive into Denmark is dangerous, for above mentioned reasons. The Dutch should be considered an enemy too. Because when I think about it, it's difficult to convince the catholic league nations to see a benefit in helping the empire against the Swedish if the Swedish seem too weak to be able to continue far further than Polish or German lands. If the conflict is carried out on German soil, it might even benefit some of them. So we can't trust our allies to the west. In fact, if we score popularity points in the right way, our most reliable ally could in fact even turn out to be Poland, despite earlier conflicts.

Directly declaring war on Sweden and trying some offensive move is dangerous, and may draw us sooner into a conflict which we would otherwise be able to avoid (unlikely) or at least postpone. But it's unlikely they will be done with the Polish quickly enough to send an offensive into German lands, and the sudden increase in strength of the opposition - and unity - would probably lower their morale a lot. The declaration should be made, but no military action immediately. We should start by aid in the form of money, or money in the form of a mercenary force.

An attack on the Dutch still seems reasonable IMO. As we didn't attack the Dutch earlier, we might have lost valuable time there. Having dealt with some of the Dutch would stop important trade that would have benefitted our enemies, and the Dutch also have little strength to oppose us offensively in counter-moves, should we need to withdraw most of our troops from the Dutch front (before having defeated the Dutch) and have to face the Swedish if their attack would come sooner than expected. Fortresses in the Netherlands are difficult to deal with, yes, but plundering can lure the enemy out of their fortresses. After all, the richess of the Dutch is the main problem, and some of their trading the problem that strenghtens our enemies. Although horrible and with severe consequences in popularity, I still support the idea of attacking the Dutch in a cruel manner with plundering and burning. The undisciplined soldiers won't be a problem in a war where plundering is one of the main ideas. We can then weaken a source of valuable things to our enemies, and make an example for protestants and rebel rallying attempts. But it all depends on how long it takes for the Swedish to deal with Poland and come to our lands. Ideally, we'd want to be ready with the Dutch before the Swedish come, but it isn't necessary. And I suspect money aid to Poland will delay the Swedish.

Hm, attacking the Swedish in Poland would threaten the Polish alliance, and leave the Dutch as a problem not yet dealt with, and the give Danish a more open northern front. Schorched earth would be a good policy against the Swedish in Poland, as they're far from home, but schorching the Polish earth isn't even to consider for popularity and practical reasons.

So I suggest attacking the Dutch to make an example (they're after all trying to rally Germans to aid their rebellion), score points with the pope (if we officially declare it a war against their protestantism), hurt a source of weapons, morale and rebelliousness and other things that could end up in the hands of our other enemies, and free up Spanish troops, while only sending money to the Polish, but sending that money openly (so we can take credit for it, to show what a defender of catholic faith we are - the Dutch war is a good explanation on why we can't send troops to Poland right away), and at the same time declaring war on Sweden, to show that we aren't the least scared of them (even though that might be a lie). Their declaration of war will come sooner or later anyway, and they're mostly tied up in Poland at the moment. If we do it first, we show that we have no respect for their armies, and it'll make them nervous in Poland, realizing the Polish aren't their only immediate opponent. If possible, at the same time make Poland a part of the catholic league. This alternative would be a good choice in both improving the morale situation and the military strategical position. We need the Spanish troops freed up so they can continue to be a threat for the French and British, and possibly even send aid to us later. We need some sort of breakthrough against the Dutch before the Swedish have done too much harm on the Polish, but such a breakthrough can be achieved through shocking amounts of plundering and other demoralizing actions in the early stages (ideally we need some really scary and unusual weapons, how about some nasty type of artillery?). At least a few forts will fall that way. We should of course offer nice ceasefire terms with them so they are conviced to surrender - and keep that promise should they surrender, in order to make the Polish and other allies trust our honor as keepers of promises. Then we should intercept the Swedish shortly before they reach German soil (we officially declare this action, when carried out, as in increase in our helpfulness towards our ally Poland, and an act in defense of the catholic faith). No need to intercept too early. If we fail a breakthrough in the Netherlands, we just leave the Spanish to continue. The Spanish can hold out defensively without us, especially if you offensive inflicted enough defeats on the Dutch to weaken them. When we're done with the Swedish we can continue with the Dutch if needed. The Danish threat is smaller here, as we have our troops closer to Denmark if going for the Dutch.

So here's my choices:
- send someone, but not myself, to discuss terms with the Polish. i.e. B or C. Edit: ColdKnight is right, B it is.
- declare war on the Dutch, make the Polish part of catholic league, send money (openly) to them, and declare war on Sweden (only nominally, and carry out no military actions against them). (i.e. I choose a new option D)

[Ironside]

1.B and 2.A

I don't think the Poles would be exactly overjoyed by getting incorperated. Same with giving away Imperial troops and that will weaken our current defence too and with the Danes looking aggresive, it's not the smartest move.

At this point I don't think the Swedes were considered a large threat anyway.

[AntiochusIII]

1 B and 2 B

Maximillian of Bavaria, as the nominal leader of the Catholic League, would prove to be an excellent negotiator for this upcoming negotiation. Besides, he seems pleased with the choice. The Polish won't be offended by the negotiator choice, either, since he is supposedly an important figure. Hopefully a successful, favorable deal will be made. You yourself can't be tied up far away from the heated locations and other electors won't have that much interest in the alliance.

Even though the Polish won't be that happy to be in the Catholic League (and thus involved in the grand scheme of Europe which they'd rather avoid) we need to declare ourselves as full supporters of Poland, while not actually support them fully. As the Holy Roman Empire (and the Hapsburg), you have much in terms of duty. One of these, unfortunately, is a religious obligation for the Catholics. Money alone in secret won't do you any good in the diplomatic scene, even though it will no doubt slow down Swedish advance. Fully support them with troops would only annoy the Polish and leave you vulnerable to attacks by your many enemies and vassals.

That Dutch invasion idea seems interesting. If it happens, it will be hard, though, as the Dutch are experienced and well-fortified from their long struggle against the Spanish, and the German princes might in fact rebel against you early if you press the initiative too hard.

[Mr White]

It's quite clear that we should send Maximillian for obvious reasons. What he should offer is a different matter. As many pointed out politics and image are very important so secret aide won't help us much and could even work against us. Sending our own men in Poland isn't an option either as this will anger the polish population.

If we want to be seen by the world as the protectors of catholisism, help has to be offered. I would offer the poles some mercenary troops, as mentioned above, under Polish command of course and the promise of support of our own troops if the Polish King would find it necessary. In this way the whole world can see that the HRE is willing to help Catholic countries with no strings attached. In the worst case scenario: Poland stands on the verge of defeat and calls upon our oath to help them defend against the 'evil' Swedes. In case of misbehaving German soldiers the Polish population can't but blame their king as he specifically asked for our troops to come to Poland.

We could be on the verge of an all out war between catholicism and protestantism. How we are seen by other nations is now of the utmost importance. Doing nothing, or appearing to do nothing, isn't an option as this will make us seem weak, undecisive or indifferent.
Immediate military action will portray us as aggressive and a threat. This will isolate us from our allies and potential allies. The possibility of aggression against the HRE will also rise.
Offering help to all who need it and ask for it ( within reason of course) will help us build our image as champion of the catholic values. This will secure support if we ourselves should need it.

[Kraxis]

Maximillian and the money...

Can't leave the border open, and open war with Sweden would be too dangerous now. Devide and conquer! By keeping Sweden tied up in Poland, Denmark should be fairly easily contained when it attacks (I don't like that we have been informed Denmark will attack, Ferdinand didn't know it, so we shouldn't know it for certain).

[Franconicus]

Agreed! Let's contain Denmark!

[Rodion Romanovich]

But what if the Danish hold their attack until the Swedish are through with Poland, and there's a two-pronged assault? The Dutch are still causing problems with their revolt instigation and by tying up our Spanish allies, who are further threatened by England. In the worst case, all three enemies will strike at the same time! I still favor an attack on the Dutch while trying to use deception to keep the Swedish and Danish think we're stronger than we are. The Swedish can't hurt us until Poland is down anyway, and the Danish have too weak ground forces to be able to advance far should they attack now. As I see it, waiting without doing anything can only make the situation get worse. An attack on the Dutch would probably improve the situation a lot. Most of their troops have been drawn to face the Spanish, so it might be possible to advance quite far without running into stronger resistance. A breakthrough there would put us in a position where we can demand their forces to surrender, but we should at the same time offer acceptable terms that recognizes the sovereignity of the 17 provinces, but limits protestantism and trade with our enemies, and gives us control over some key forts in the area for the coming few decades to be able to prevent them from counter-offensives in the nearest future.

On the other hand, if we fail to break through and suffer defeats, we can just retreat to our own territory - the Dutch can't fight both the Spanish and us offensively. We might even tempt the Danish to attack us before the Swedish are done with Poland.

Both of these possiblities would be very useful.

The worst possible scenario that could come from an attack on the Dutch would be that the Dutch would defeat us greatly, and thus gain prestige and manage to rally more provinces to their rebellion, while at the same time Denmark and Sweden strikes. But the risks for that scenario are minimal IMO. The money to Poland will delay the Swedish, and when the Swedish hear that we support Poland, and could theoretically send our own troops to support the Polish, they'll probably get nervous and make mistakes in their desire to breakthrough quickly in Poland.

We must attack the Dutch! If we just offer surrender terms acceptable to both the Spanish and the Dutch, there's a great chance that conflict in the region will end, and the prestige of us and our Spanish allies will be kept. And we have a stronger nation that can resist the infidels to the north and east...

[IrishMike]

The Dutch Option needs to be explored much more than just implusive action. Also how much would we commit to the attack with Denmark threatening. Do we have any large defensive fortifications to halt Denmark with minimal troops if they attack? If we are successful though many resources and money could be freed to throw against Sweeden and eventually Denmark.

[Kraxis]

Viable complaints Legio, but the 'fact' is that the Danish and Swedish kings dislike each other so badly that they are racing to the head of the war. They will not work together unless forced to, and their disunity will cause them to try to head the other off.

In history it was the Danish king Christian IV that managed to get the time and money to wage war first. It took some more time before Gustav II Adolph could turn his attention to the west.
Had Christian been bright he would have worked together with Gustav, but as it happened he himself wanted to lead the Protestants, and so did Gustav.

But force a war on either and the other will happily jump in and appear to be some saviour. Imagine the propaganda coup either would get from rescuing the other from their common enemy. It would help a whole lot in determining the leader.

[Lord Winter]

(I don't like that we have been informed Denmark will attack, Ferdinand didn't know it, so we shouldn't know it for certain).

Yes that was introduced very badly. It is hard to stay out of the debate sometimes. Looking back it should of seemed like that therestrong suspicions that the next attack would come from Denmark or another nation in the league. Thanks for the feed back
DoH

[Kagemusha]

1.B and 2.A.Trip to Poland could be hazardious to your health. Also Poles have the menpower to fight with the Swedes.But they need money.Its better to have the war in Poland then in Germany.Swedes have a great army,but they cant bare too heavy losses.So lets support Poland with money and prepair our own troops to the battle ahead.

[Lord Winter]

You decide to send Maximillian. He will carry enough influence with the polish were they wont feel shunned, while you can deal with more important matters in the Empire.
Before leaving Maximillian pulls you aside:

“The world is not a safe place anymore and you are leaving your self defenseless you need to raise a private army. With the Dutch, the Danes, France and England threaten us we need all the men we can get.”

Turning away he walks down the hall.

The next week Maximillian departs with an escort of 40 men towards Poland, bringing with him enough funds to bribe the Poles if necessary. Many of the Electors however think that this is a waste of time. “Why give our gold to Poland, when we have four other nations that are poised to invade,” they ask. The politics of the Empire are never simple and many an emperor had been overthrown when he had failed to keep the German Princes in check.

Meanwhile you have other matters to attend too. The Spanish are besieging the great Dutch fortress of Breda. Cardinal Richelieu has been appointed to the Royal council of France and is now directing an aggressive anti Hapsburg policy. Maybe Maximillian is right you may need a private army. An empire has never fallen because someone was over cautious. There are some funds coming from your lands which may be put to use for an army. Now all that is needed is a commander.

You begin to research the idea and come up with a list of men who will rise at your request and of course, a bit of funding.

1. Albrechct Von’ Wallenstein has already supported you in your past wars against the Fredrick. Wallenstein has offered to pay the cost to raise the army as long as you pay the upkeep. Rumors of fraud and a craving for power surround him.

2. Hire the Belgian general Karel Bonaventura Buquoy, he has proven himself loyal as the former commander under the old emperor Mathiais. It would however be more expensive since you would have to pay for the whole recruiting process.

3. Gottfried Heinrich Pappenheim is currently in the service of the Cathloic league but could probably be spared if the right of amount of money was paid. Pappenheim is one of the best calvary generals of the catholic league but the league may see it as a sign of aggression if you take him from there service.


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@Coldknight there are some fortifications on the danish boarder to the point were you could hold for a couple weeks with retivly few troops.