Golden Horde!

[Total War Merc]

I havent played the game for a while and im getting started playing it again, just wondering if anyone can answer a few questions about the golden horde?

About what time do they arrive?

Which provinces do they usually take?

What kind of troops do they bring?

How many (usually)?

Also, which buildings do i need to make spys again?

(im playing xl mod) - always start in early era

[Knight Templar]

I dont have XL mod installed, but I suppose there's no difference.

They arrive between 1230-34 and take Khazar (always) and often Georgia.
The amount of their troops depends on amount of troops in the province they're attacking, but you can expect al least 10 full stacks in Khazar.
Their armies are composed of Mongol heavy cav, Mongol horse archers, Urban militia, Mongol warriors (foot archers with good melee stats), Spearmen and catapults.
To build spies you need Brothel (Castle and Tavern required).

[Banquo's Ghost]

Just to add, I have the XL mod and Knight Templar is correct - though I believe the Horde invariably appears in 1230. They can also appear in Armenia as well as Georgia and Khazar, and just the once I saw them come in Volga-Bulgaria as well (province only in XL, I think).

As for troop types, as noted but you may also find Korean Spearmen and Korean Skirmishers.

I'm not sure what determines the size of the invasion force but it can be very, very big.

[Total War Merc]

Thanks, ill guess ill put a huge army in Khazar in about 1225 just to be safe :)

[Ludens]

Thanks, ill guess ill put a huge army in Khazar in about 1225 just to be safe :)

Actually, using a large garisson will just increase the size of rebellions (and the Mongol invasion is basically a preprogrammed faction emergence). The Mongols always invades Khazar in 1230, but sometimes stacks will also appear in other nearby provinces, and some rebel provinces may go over to the Horde. Prepare for some long battles, as the Mongol cavalry is both strong and fast.

[antisocialmunky]

Big armies are fun to manipulate into fighting the enemy.

[Loucipher]

Yes, the Horde invariably arrives in 1230, so that your first battles with them shall be fought in 1231.
Volga-Bulgaria is the original province from the vanilla MTW. Located north of Khazar, east of Ryazan and south of Muscovy.
Back in vanilla MTW times they were pitiful - just two stacks of units, and no more than 16 MHA units. Now, things have changed drastically - 10 stacks full of assorted troops (composition as noted by Knight Templar and Haruchai) is a minimum; if you see nothing more than this, consider yourself lucky.
Where they strike is actually a mystery for me. Sometimes they go south, wreaking havoc amongst the Asia Minor and Levant provinces. Other times they go straight west, painting half of the Europe with that damn mustard-brownish colour...
Have a mix of heavy cavalry, armour piercing troops (Halberdiers preferably), foot missiles, solid spears and fast cavalry. And have lots of it. Use them accordingly against each of the Horde units (refer to Frogbeastegg's TW Unit Guide for more info). Use bribery whenever possible - a lot of Horde lesser khans are loyal only to the highest bidder, and since you start on Early, money is not an issue in High anymore, unless you totally screwed up your economics - in which case you'd be dead already by then. Your armies should be massed at least some 2 provinces away, ideally in coastal provinces; with your fleet in place, you can then throw anything including the kitchen sink at the Mongols (except Volga-Bulgaria, all provinces usually invaded are coastal).
Good luck and have fun repelling the Horde

[tigger_on_vrb]

I had an interesting experience with the Mongols playing the turks on high, expert. I has been kicking the Byzantines of the mainland and had taken Bulgaria, Constantinople and relieved the byzs of all their provinces except Khazar and the one to the south of it (Georgia?). Their back was broken, but they had a few decent troops left. As I was fighting off Italian, German and English crusades to Bulgaria and Constantinople I decided to leave the Byzs as a buffer between me an the Mongol invasion buying me a few turns extra to balance my troops defending east and west.
The turn in which the mongols arrived the byz emperor died whithout an heir and their provinces went straight over to the Mongols! I've seen "a number of rebel provinces have joined them", but never a faction dying out in the same turn going over. They gained a whole bunch of horse archers and byz cav, assorted infantry and even some VG.
I was looking forward to a good fight but, unfortunately, the golden horde made their usual mistake of spreading their forces too thin attcking the Russians, Poles and me and they were easily wiped out in about 15 years

[OliverWKim]

Playing as the Brits, I have the Isles, France, Northern Germany, Denmark, Spain and North Italy, which adds up to 43 regions. The Pope commissioned a crusade for Jerusalem, and, recognizing my luck, quickly fielded a 20-unit army of crusader sergeants, armored swordsmen and Hospitaller knights, then set off for Jerusalem. I planned to conquer Antioch then head south and take Jerusalem, as Antioch was very lightly defended. I conquered Antioch with ease and prepared to move on to Jerusalem. Then, suddenly, 6 Golden Horde units invaded Antioch region and besieged the city. Even when my general turned on night mode, I was still outnumbered around 5 to 1. Obviously, my outmatched and outnumbered troops were completely massacred (though I did manage to inflict around 900 casualties). Just an account on how annoying the GH is. TWO REGIONS AWAY FROM VICTORY!!!

[Adrian II]

Big armies are fun to manipulate into fighting the enemy.

Totally off topic: I love the smileys in your sig, antisocialmunky.

[Don Esteban]

Thanks, ill guess ill put a huge army in Khazar in about 1225 just to be safe :)

I'd suggest letting them take Khazar , let them spread out and then counterattack - unless you can field an immense army you'll lose anyway.

[seireikhaan]

Depending on who you are, I would advise completely forfeiting Khazar and pulling back to Kiev. Invading Kiev from the east results in a bridge battle, essentially nullifying the Mongol's greatest strength, pure mobility.

To defend, use lots and lots of halberds and arbs. Halberds can hold the bridge(especially helps if you can get them extra morale) and the arbs waste the mongols as they're stuck on the bridge. If you don't have halberds, than a good spear like saracens or chiv. seargeants will do the job. If you don't have arbs, well that tough, regular archers just aren't nearly as good for this situation. If you are the bizz or someone who conquered the bizz(like Egypt or Turkey) then you're just going to whittle them down in attrition, or hopefully kill off the Khaan early in an early battle. Just make sure to have lots of anticav units handy and also some light cav of your own to deal w/ the mongol warriors.

[Bregil the Bowman]

you can expect al least 10 full stacks in Khazar.
Their armies are composed of Mongol heavy cav, Mongol horse archers, Urban militia, Mongol warriors (foot archers with good melee stats), Spearmen and catapults.

I'm playing in VI and the Horde also has several mortars and an organ gun

I'm all for letting other factions spread out in the far east and having them deal with the Horde (or vice versa) to begin with. If you are having problems with a powerful Byzantine, Turkish or Egyptian faction, just gear yourself for the changes that 1230 will bring to the map of Europe.

Check out the thread titled "How does one deal with the Mongols" for various strategies once you are at war with them.

[Lord Cazaric]

The Horde always take Khazar and keep their main army there when they do. They'll also occasionally attack Georgia, Volga-Bulgaria and Armenia. For me, they once attacked in 1227, with, if I recall correctly, 4000 soldiers in Volga-Bulgaria and 12,000 in Khazar.

I purposely had 1 byzantine infantryman stationed in Volga-Bulgaria at the time. When the Horde appeared, I made him withdraw into the fort. Meanwhile, in Khazar, I almost entirely destroyed the invading army with a defending force of 8000 steppe cavalry, byzantine infantry and a range of peasants.

After I had almost entirely wiped out the invaders in Khazar, I moved my surviving 3500 soldiers from that province into Volga-Bulgaria, where they had taken the castle (that poor, valiant infantryman died...). In the next year I easily destroyed the remaining Horde soldiers.

I defeated them in a matter of three years.

[Lord Cazaric]

Of course, I'd been building my war-machine for about 30 years, with every steppe province training soldiers.

Actually, if I recall, I had about three hundred kataphraktoi as well, brought up from Constantinople about 10 years before the Horde hit. They were definitely important in the defeat of Batu Khan.

[caravel]

The Horde always take Khazar and keep their main army there when they do. They'll also occasionally attack Georgia, Volga-Bulgaria and Armenia. For me, they once attacked in 1227, with, if I recall correctly, 4000 soldiers in Volga-Bulgaria and 12,000 in Khazar.

The horde cannot appear before or after 1230, it is a hardcoded event.

I purposely had 1 byzantine infantryman stationed in Volga-Bulgaria at the time. When the Horde appeared, I made him withdraw into the fort. Meanwhile, in Khazar, I almost entirely destroyed the invading army with a defending force of 8000 steppe cavalry, byzantine infantry and a range of peasants.

An unusual force. In my experience the Horde would steamroll such an army with ease. Byzantine Infanty being a basic sword infantry that are vulberable to cavarly charges and partially vulnerable to missiles, as well as peasants that are really a none entity. Steppe Cavalry wouldn't be a match for Mongol Heavy Cavalry, and would be vulnerable to the missiles of the Mongol Horse Archers. Besides an army of light cavalry, with no polearms, spears or missiles of any kind is extremely poor defensively.

I defeated them in a matter of three years.

With Byzantine Infantry, Peasants and Steppe Cavalry - oh and your 300 Kataphraktoi vs the Horde's 10,000 MHC?

This reminds me of that time when I faced and utterly defeated the 50,000 strong Horde with 2,000 camels in one year... oh and I did bring along 200 peasants as well, I almost forgot.

[Caerfanan]

This reminds me of that time when I faced and utterly defeated the 50,000 strong Horde with 2,000 camels in one year... oh and I did bring along 200 peasants as well, I almost forgot.

Now we see what's all about those camels!

[Martok]

Lord Cazaric, I apologize for sounding skeptical, but how *did* you manage to defeat the Mongols with an army made up of mostly SHC, Byz Infantry, and peasants? I have a hard time seeing how that would be possible, unless you auto-calced the battle (and even then I don't think one could win). On what difficulty level were you playing?

[caravel]

Now we see what's all about those camels!

Don't laugh, it was an epic battle!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Until I was "rudely awakened by the dust man" that is...

On a more serious note, it is possible that Lord Cazaric managed to pull it off. He may have hidden his entire force in the woods and waited for the time to run out?

Ok I'll get my coat...

[Caerfanan]

On a more serious note, it is possible that Lord Cazaric managed to pull it off. He may have hidden his entire force in the woods and waited for the time to run out?

OK, this makes me think. Has anyone has had a battle with, let's say, you have one cavalry unit and your opponent has two or three good anticav infantry units. Meaning you couldn't really fight them, but... could run around them long enough a time to win with the clock?
Just being curious, I never tried that, but I wonder if someone did?

Sorry for the slight off-topic stuff!!!

[caravel]

After a time, the constant retreat would probably cause them to rout.

[The Unknown Guy]

AAGH (posting problems). What I was saying. I tried it in Vanilla with three mercenary Turcoman to see if the Parthian shot worked. After a fashion it did, but like Cambyses said, eventually they routed BADLY. Into an enemy armenian heavy cavalry

[Caerfanan]

AAGH (posting problems). What I was saying. I tried it in Vanilla with three mercenary Turcoman to see if the Parthian shot worked. After a fashion it did, but like Cambyses said, eventually they routed BADLY. Into an enemy armenian heavy cavalry

Ew. routing there was a bad idea!

Thanks for the input!

[Kavhan Isbul]

OK, this makes me think. Has anyone has had a battle with, let's say, you have one cavalry unit and your opponent has two or three good anticav infantry units. Meaning you couldn't really fight them, but... could run around them long enough a time to win with the clock?
Just being curious, I never tried that, but I wonder if someone did?

Sorry for the slight off-topic stuff!!!

I do not think you run around all battle long, but I have done it for half a battle with a depleted unit of RKs. It was a bridge battle, the enemy managed to make it through the bridge as it outnumbered me badly but only had slow heavy spear infantry (Rus Spearmen I think) and I just marched from one end of the map to another. It worked because my unit had high morale - it was the general and I think he had developped captured or some such vice that actually helped a lot in this case. Their units were completely exhausted too, so they could not "march quickly", which gave me enough time. But it felt like an AI exploit at the end and quite unfair. At the same time I have had time running out on me when attacking through bridges, so it tends to even out.

[Martok]

After a time, the constant retreat would probably cause them to rout.

AAGH (posting problems). What I was saying. I tried it in Vanilla with three mercenary Turcoman to see if the Parthian shot worked. After a fashion it did, but like Cambyses said, eventually they routed BADLY. Into an enemy armenian heavy cavalry

Yeah, a unit can usually retreat for only so long before the Benny Hill code kicks in and causes them to flee. It's kind of a pity in a way, but it does admittedly help in preventing the player from exploiting that sort of tactic.

[Caerfanan]

Yeah, a unit can usually retreat for only so long before the Benny Hill code kicks in and causes them to flee. It's kind of a pity in a way, but it does admittedly help in preventing the player from exploiting that sort of tactic.

Yes, you have a point there. It would be "too easy" and turn some battles into some sort of pacman game...

[caravel]

If you periodically order them to attack then just continue running around it resets the Benny Hill code and prevents them routing. Personally though I would just withdraw from such a battle.

[Caerfanan]

If you periodically order them to attack then just continue running around it resets the Benny Hill code and prevents them routing. Personally though I would just withdraw from such a battle.

Yes, who wants to wait that long for such a smell battle... I wonder because I started something like this once (with kerns rushed by two huscarles), but I got bored... The only case where I see some use to it is if you make some mistake and are attacked in a vital province (the on producing your best unit or something like this...) you need to keep

[Don Esteban]

OK, this makes me think. Has anyone has had a battle with, let's say, you have one cavalry unit and your opponent has two or three good anticav infantry units. Meaning you couldn't really fight them, but... could run around them long enough a time to win with the clock?
Just being curious, I never tried that, but I wonder if someone did?

Sorry for the slight off-topic stuff!!!

I've had the AI do this to me in a very small battle - I think they had one unit of HA's and I had a couple of spear units. I cornered them eventually though and they routed (it was more like playing chess with a pawn and a king vs a king than anything else!)

[gunslinger]

I'm surprised to hear that so many here play with the timer running. I feel like I'm cheating if I use it on defense. Plus, I'm such a slow attacker that it really hurts me on offense.