Medieval: Total Realism Mod Team's Update Thread

[kataphraktoi]

Taking into account, Moderator econ21's reasons for closing original thread, I've decided to open a new thread which doesn't have the controversial conversation in the thread.

A recap of the links for the concepts:

Saracen Infantry (name to be announced later)
https://img97.imageshack.us/my.php?im...aceninf0my.jpg

Templar Knight
https://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?i...rknight0px.jpg

Kataphraktoi
https://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?...1066kat8ok.jpg

[Kraxis]

Maybe you'd want to change the format to thumbnails or links.

[3.14]

Ok anyway so after a few little problems, here we are again. This will apparently be the new MTR thread. From now on, we'd appreciate your input in this place.

So here are not one but two concept drawings. The first one is an early cataphract unit made by kataphraktoi and the second one is a ghulam cavalry rider made by wraithdt. Once again, it is needless to mention that all the concept arts are indeed only concepts and that those units may or may not be included in the final unit list.

Enjoy.

https://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?...1066kat8ok.jpg

https://img419.imageshack.us/my.php?...cavalry0rh.jpg

[Orda Khan]

Those two images look very good indeed

.......Orda

[econ21]

Polite notice: bashing CA, RTW, mods and mod teams are all unacceptable in this forum. For example, saying "X sucks" where X is RTW, a mod or a designer will lead to warning points.

Constructive criticism is ok, but everyone needs to be particularly courteous if you engage in this as you are talking about people's work and people naturally feel strongly about the fruits of their own labour.

Please remember that this is a forum for friendly or at least polite discussion.

[DensterNY]

Well, I just thought I'd say Thanks a lot guys for all of your efforts now and the likely dozens, if not hundreds, of collective hours that will be needed to make your new MTR2 mod.

Also, your concept art is great from all that I've seen so far, it'd be interesting to see how you guys play around with some of the changes introduced by CA.

For instance, they've mentioned that now when units are fighting you will see different animations and not just everyone taking the same sword stroke, etc... plus, when a unit kills someone they get a special death stroke/kill combination which will be awesome.

[Gtafanboy]

I didn't think RTR was that good. It sacrificed gameplay for Historical Accuracy. It does, you'll try to defend it but you'll lose in the end. Who cares about historical accuracy when you get sub par gameplay?

[Keba]

Please note that the team making Medieval: Total Realism is not the team making Rome: Total Realism. Those are two different teams, the name simply builds upon the tradition established by the RTR mod.

There is no obligation to play RTR or any other mod for that matter, if you are happy with the unmodded Rome: Total War. Most of the people that frequent these forums do care for historical accuracy, and consider a complete historical reproduction of a certain historical period to be fun.

[Gtafanboy]

Please note that the team making Medieval: Total Realism is not the team making Rome: Total Realism. Those are two different teams, the name simply builds upon the tradition established by the RTR mod.

There is no obligation to play RTR or any other mod for that matter, if you are happy with the unmodded Rome: Total War. Most of the people that frequent these forums do care for historical accuracy, and consider a complete historical reproduction of a certain historical period to be fun.

I know i'm not obligated to play it, but I don't think everyone should praise it so much. And I know people want historical accuracy, but I think gameplay is a little more important to the game t hen seeing if rome was split into 3 factions or not. Thank god it is not the same team though.

[paullus]

but I don't think everyone should praise it so much.

Bud, thanks for telling the rest of us what we should or should not do. If you don't like a mod, just ignore it. There's no logical reason for you to be upset that people do like it, nor does your dislike justify hijacking a thread.

So to return from the tangent, I like how you are incorporating the unit variability options into the concept art, with the alternate armor and accourtrements.

[3.14]

I didn't think RTR was that good. It sacrificed gameplay for Historical Accuracy. It does, you'll try to defend it but you'll lose in the end. Who cares about historical accuracy when you get sub par gameplay?

Well I don't know who cares... maybe the countless thousands of people who downloaded it ? Maybe they care...

There will be another concept art posted soon, stay tuned.

[econ21]

There's no logical reason for you to be upset that people do like it, nor does your dislike justify hijacking a thread.

I agree. All further criticism of Rome Total Realism will be regarded as off-topic in this thread and deleted.

[NagatsukaShumi]

I entirely agree, negative opinions on a modification that doesn't even exist yet is a bit premature and unfair, I would feel the same if you posted this in "my" thread too.

The concept art is top notch guys, very good quality.

[Gtafanboy]

I agree. All further criticism of Rome Total Realism will be regarded as off-topic in this thread and deleted.

One last post(might get deleted but oh well) if this is a Medieval Total REALISM mod, then it is the same thing as a Rome Total REALISM mod. REALISM. Same exact thing. Of course i'm going to compare it to the other version. It is the same thing.

[econ21]

One last post...

Thanks, I'm going to hold you to that. You've made your opinion clear. This mod is probably not going to be for you. You can devote your energies to other threads and let the MTR team use this one to discuss their work with people who want to play it.

Of course i'm going to compare it to the other version.

Fair enough, if the team and the philosophy are similar, a comparison may be legitimate. I just don't see the point of simply knocking a mod, let alone a prospective mod. Debating whether a specific proposed design feature will enhance realism or gameplay can be constructive. But blanket negative judgements - effectively just saying "I won't like it" - are neither here nor there.

I must declare a bias here - I love Rome Total Realism (and EB). Making the combat more realistic made the gameplay in the battles better, IMO. This was partly because they lasted longer and partly because the different arms were better balanced (cav was less uber). The strategic level was also more challenging, as it was harder to blitz and several non-Roman/non-Egyptian factions got a boost. RTW without those mods was a 6/10 at most for me; with them it was a 9/10 or higher.

We don't know how M2TW will turn out, but given that it is based on the RTW engine and given that we know CA's priorities are not creating a historical wargame, it is a fair bet a realism mod will enhance M2TW for people with the appropriate tilt.

And I'm sorry, as I said, I am not going to allow further criticism of RTR in this thread. This thread has a clear function and it would be inhospitable to allow it to be hijacked it further.

[3.14]

Gtafanboy, you don't seem to understand what's going on really.

I'll admit that our objective is the same (creating a realistim mod), but you can hardly compare the two mods (once MTR will be released). In fact, I'd be curious to know you'd compare them on what basis. Oh and by the way, if you want an improved gameplay, just mod it yourself. It's not that hard to only tweak the unit stats. Anyone can do it. On the other hand, not anyone can model, skin, code too well and that where we come into play. We have a team made of extremely talented people who will help make this game more realistic with new skins, models, recruitment systems, maybe scripts, etc. And this is something that the common "fan" can't do by himself.

Finally, if you feel like you will not like Medieval Total Realism, maybe you should stick to GTA. If you have any constructive criticism, go ahead and tell us. But the only thing you've done so far is stating your opinion. So you're going in circles. So if you please, stop wasting our and your time.

Have a nice day,

Ach!

[3.14]

Sighs.. where the hell is the edit button around here ? I can't even edit my typos. :(

[Kraxis]

I must declare a bias here - I love Rome Total Realism (and EB). Making the combat more realistic made the gameplay in the battles better, IMO. This was partly because they lasted longer and partly because the different arms were better balanced (cav was less uber). The strategic level was also more challenging, as it was harder to blitz and several non-Roman/non-Egyptian factions got a boost. RTW without those mods was a 6/10 at most for me; with them it was a 9/10 or higher.

See, while I don't agree with Simon about RTR, I don't come here and let them hear how much I disliked their work and how bad it would be for another group to try to emulate that work with M2. I just can't be bothered as I know it won't have an impact on me (because I will most likely not play it).

That is how you should behave. IGNORE IT! It is their time and their game!
By coming here and complaining you are actively seeking out stuf you don't like. Do you also crash parties you don't want to go to? Do you deliberately sit and watch programs you don't want to, just to get annoyed?

The more you stalk around like this the more you will be percieved as a troll, and that is not good (unless you are one of course).
Now let the issue rest!

Btw, while RTR never fulfilled my tastes I could understand the effort and the quality of the job. And that I respect the crew for.

[hellenes]

While seconding all the above reasonable comments of a mature and sane discussion Ill add my 2 cents:

IMO RTW had SERIOUS accuracy and immersion flaws. For me when the LOOK of the game is concerned Im 100% for historical accuracy. NO compromises.
Youll ask "Why?". Well because contrary to CA's position the LOOK of the game has NOTHING to do with functions aka GAMEPLAY. No matter if I change all the units' skins and models to LOTR units if their stats and function remains intact NOTHING changed in GAMEPLAY.
Gameplay =/= "C00ln3z" no matter how much some fantasy fanboys would like one to believe.
However when one steps in the field of TRUE functional gameplay it will take priority over EVERYTHING.
A good example is the siegefest of the original RTR. It was a gameplay descision that kept me from playing the mod (well the metropolis mod changed that) and Signifier One at the TWC summed it in a perfect way:

"The problem with the argument that "Alexander had 50 sieges" is that most of those sieges took days, or weeks at most. Even the most difficult siege Alexander ever had to perform, that of Tyre, only took 9 months or in game terms, TWO TURNS! So if you were Alexander, you could do all those countless sieges and STILL conquer the world in 13 years. What can you do here in 26 turns? Just start expanding? Besieging ANY city will take two turns, one for the siege equipment and one for the actual assault. So that's why Alexander's 50 sieges didn't take him 230 years to perform, and that's why if you attempt to replicate his feat, it will be you not him who ends up dying before completing the conquest.

Nor does decreasing the number of provinces or cities necessarily somehow means a decrease in accuracy. A siege of one big city for two-three turns could be an abstraction for besieging all of the major cities in the area, each taking maybe a few months. So there's no loss of accuracy here, if you take into consideration the principle of abstraction. I think it's a big mistake to try to make ONE element of the game just as it was, and ignore the fact that other elements (# of cities conquerable by one army per turn, rate of movement per turn, taking of cities without siege) cannot be modified, therefore turning something like Alexander's conquest of the world from a campaign of excitement and constant change into a campaign of endless routine."

The above is a PURE example of gameplay taking priority over Realism. For all the rest Realism is the king.

Hellenes

[3.14]

Hi everyone. I was in a good mood today and so I thought that it was time to reaveal another concept drawing. :D Once again, Wraithdt made an outstanding drawing, this time of a varangian guard unit. Even two varangian guard units.

Enjoy.

There's another little thing I'd like to add. From now on, kataphraktoi will be posting the previews. He'll be handling PR (and is also a concept artist) for MTR.

https://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?...anguard4om.jpg

[dracosean]

another good artwork that you have brought us.

[paullus]

I have a special place in my heart for the varangians. Don't have a clue how they should appear, though, but what you have looks reasonable.

I know its way early, but: any chance we can get the at-rest position, or perhaps even walking, to be with the axes on resting against one shoulder (Byzantine sources often spoke of them as the soldiers resting axes on their shoulders, etc), and I think representing that in game would be pretty cool.

[3.14]

It is indeed early. And we can't answer that as of yet. We'll have to wait to see what the game has to offer in terms of possibilities of that sort. We can still hope.

[wraithdt]

hey all!

I hope you guys approve of my rendition of the Varagian Guards; they are one of my favourite units too and I tried my best to depict them as historically as possible while not making too boring at the same time. Stay tuned for more sketches from me and the rest of the concept art team.

(ps. I'll keep your suggestion in mind paullus.)

[paullus]

Thanks! And yeah, I don't really know that there's anything consistent in Byzantine texts or artistic depictions of the Varangians' equipment except for the two-handed (some say two-bladed) axe.

EDIT: however, I do wonder where the c. 1230 came from, as there may have only been a couple hundred Varangians at that time, serving in almost exclusively in court capacity.

[Casmin]

EDIT: however, I do wonder where the c. 1230 came from, as there may have only been a couple hundred Varangians at that time, serving in almost exclusively in court capacity.

By 1230 I believe the Varangians were composed mostly of English troops.

[Trajanus]

absolutely stunning Varangians Wraithdt keep the good work coming guys.

Keep the good work coming.

[kataphraktoi]

Hey, Kataphraktoi, I was wondering if you were going to include the Georgians in MTR. I mean, they are like the best, strongest and couragest soldiers in the Medieval period that no one could stop. They also have rich, stable and strong state where the Silk Road passes. Frankly, I think you should include them in because you have been trounced by my Georgian compatriots who have called you a child and say that your facts are wrong in the debate. When they say your facts are wrong, it is the truth, they don't need to provide evidence. Their word is good enough. If you don't include them in MTR Kataphraktoi, I think your historical unaccurate and MTR would suck because Georgians are not in it because they are really good warriors.

Lol!!

No, my account was not hacked into. I'm just arguing against myself as a Georgian.

[wraithdt]

WTF Kata??????? You're weird............

[3.14]

Bah, seriously... if one ever pushes so hard to include a faction in our list, it's because one's afraid that said faction isn't important enough in which case we'll most likely stick with one's fears and we most likely won't include said faction. :D Oh unless we have a very good reason to.