Playing as seleucids

[Imperator of rome]

Anyone played as them,I haven't played as them since vanilla rtw and it is because I'm afraid of managing all that land.Is it a challenge to play as them?

[Mujalumbo]

I've only progressed up to around 220 B.C. as the Seleukids, M/M. VH campaign difficulty (which is recommended) will change things. And, I haven't played a Seleukid campagn on .74 yet. (Some things are different, now being able to recruit Pahlava Shivatir, for instance.)

The Seleukids have a nice line up of troops, typical successor army troops, pezhetairoi, pantodapoi phalangitai, hetairoi. You also get eastern archers, and Mad Asbara; decent medium cav. Word is, if you manage to get thoroughly trounced by a Hayasdan or Phalava army with Kataphraktoi, your general may get the "Intrigued by Kataphraktoi" trait, and eventually start training Hellenistic Kataphraktoi. If not, well, you'll just have to make do with Hetairoi and Mad Asbara.

Your capital is Antiocheia. If I'm not mistaken. Seleukeia starts out as your biggest city, but Susa, Persepolis, Ekbatana, and er, Gabai sprout up pretty quickly, too. Happiness will plummet in the cities in the East, so you have to decide if you're gonna hang onto them or clear out, pretty quick. A hint, you'll wanna hang onto Sardis and Ipsos in the West; if you can build up some mines (and acquire the Miner or Superior Miner trait), they'll start pulling in some decent cash.

So, long story short, yeah, it's a challenge to play them. Obviously, you're gonna wanna get some paved roads down ASAP so you can haul ass here, there, and everywhere. Paved Roads give +5% Happiness (due to Order?), which is nice.

You're gonna wanna get your economy together in a hurry; the Seleukids are rich, but not Ptolemaioi rich, and they're gonna come up with Kleruchoi Agemata and Galatian Agemata in serious numbers. Pahlava will come at you, too, but they can't recruit any better than pantodapoi phalangitai, so as long as you can recruit pezhetairoi, you should be OK.

I haven't even tried to fight the Pahlava in the open field, so I can't offer any tips there. Bring lots of archers and hope for the best? ;)

[Imperator of rome]

Pahlava isn't that good,I wish there were more unmounted units.I was beating down on the baktrians and seleucids with them,but it just got boring having all cavalry armies or relying on mercs.I might play with them,because I love the units Makedonia has so it will be fun playing as seleucids and training hypapistai.

[Avicenna]

Selucids would be more worthwhile when all the goodies are added in in the final version. I play the KH, because they're more completed (at least I think), with the Olympic games, special traits and all that. You don't even get messages when Armenia revolts now, I think.

All cav isn't a problem really, just use cheap infantry for sapping. Mercs are good fun too.

[Imperator of rome]

kH is also a hellenstic faction I have to try,cant get enough of that hoplite/phalangite goodness!

[MaximianusBR]

I think makedonia is fairly complete now...

[Mujalumbo]

The challenge, in the early stages, is fending off the hordes of rebels that pop up as well as the occasional Ptolemaic invasion. A bunch of towns in the East I can't be bothered to remember will rebel soon after the start.

I built up happiness buildings in the western towns, then moved my capital to Seleukia. This had the additional benefit of easing income loss due to corruption (net me 3k/turn, small change I know, but 3k/turn at the start is 3k you can spend on happiness buildings, training pantodapoi phalangities or pezhetairoi).

Even if you secure peace with the Ptolemies right off the bat, eventually they'll come. You have cities they want and they'll try to use force to take them. The Pahlava and Hayasdan also some looking for fights. (Incidently, one of my guys was defeated in the field by a Hayasdan army with some sort of kataphraktoi. So now he's "Intruiged by Kataphraktoi.")

Looking back, if there's anyway to get Sidon to rebel to the Eleutheroi, I might've considered it. That damned city is always rebellious, no matter who I'm playing as. But, I digress...

In my campaign, I have PILES of family members. Honestly. I can't keep track of them all. I built up academies in Antoicheia, Seleukeia, Persepolis, Ekbatana. So now whenever some riff-raff marries into the family or somebody's spawn comes of age, I can send them to the closest major city for education and training. They usually start out as limp-wristed effetes, but when they're educated enough, they're posted to any town that has no governer, and there's usually enough local action to toughen 'em up. I literally have a family member governing almost every settlement, and about five or six guys still in training, along with a couple of roving ass-kickers.

I'm expanding into Eleutheroi-held Arabia just so I can find places to put all these guys! Arabia's nice. I built up a level 5 MIC (forgot what it's called, sorry guys!) in Antoicheia, pumped out some thorakitai argyraspidai, hypaspistai, and pheraspidai, using 'em to conquer Arabia. Makes for decent training. Numbers have dwindled a bit, but they've got a coupla new chevrons already! I figure this will be a good training ground for a royal squadron; gonna give them Ptolies a bit of a shock.

[Imperator of rome]

Seleucids rock
I was fighting a nasty war with the pontos,ptolemaoic,and the yuenzhi and the yuenzhis actually took some of my frontier lands.I just got em back and I got 5mic and since then I have been kicking the ptolemaioics out of the area where macedon,pontos etc is.Im going into egypt soon

[QwertyMIDX]

I think makedonia is fairly complete now...

It's pretty complete in terms of core units, but all the really fun units aren't in .74.

[MaximianusBR]

It's pretty complete in terms of core units, but all the really fun units aren't in .74.

thats true...All I want is play this MOD in a complete version!!!!

[QwertyMIDX]

Makedon will be MUCH cooler in the next build.

[Imperator of rome]

I think the problem will be Pahlava and Baktria when they notice they can own my frontier,I have pitiful troops there and the major problem will be trying to make a quality army there.

[Mujalumbo]

It's around 220'ish B.C. I'm at war with Pontos, the Koinon Hellenon, the Plolemaioi, Hayasdan, and the Pahlava.

There's a bit of a "cold war" going on with Baktria; they have forces stationed outside two of my eastern towns, and the towns are heavily garrisoned. I'm willing to put up with this for now, as the Baktrians are really taking it to the Pahlava.

The Hayasdan aren't so bad. They have no heavy infantry, so seiges are nothing to worry about. If you can bring up some eastern archers, station them behind your pezhetairoi (or pantodapoi phalangitai if you're cheap like me), and in open battle, you'll force them to come to you instead of stand off.

The war with the Ptolemaioi is one of attrition. I kick the stuffing out of their piles of Kleruchoi Agemata and Galatian Agemata, but my pezhetairoi line is usually so battered, I gotta spend a few turns bringing up replacements. We're having back-and-forth fights over Bostra and Sidon.

Overall, I haven't noticed any huge, glaring errors. Unit recruitment throughout the empire is good, I can raise the "Makedonian" line of troops anyplace I can put in a type II gov't (Sardis and Ipsos, for instance). A.I. aggression on VH campaign difficulty seems to work OK. This war on three fronts is fustrating and is preventing me from completing my Arabian expansion, but I was making good, steady progress (captured Halikarnarssos, Pergamon), before Pontos came sniffing for a fight. This is good. I feel if I better manage my cash, fight each and every battle, I may continue to slowly expand.

The elite troops are good. I've had a unit of Pheraspidai engaged by a unit of elephants, taking massive casualties while surrounded, and they stood their ground. Oh, they wavered, but I was able to get some thorakitai argyraspidai over to help and that must've calmed them down a little bit.

Those silver shields are gods amongst men. A good chunk of my cash is going towards the "royal squadron," most to the silver shields, but they're worth it. They were taking on Galatian and Kleruchoi Agemata head on, and winning! Their only real weakness might be elephants.

[MaximianusBR]

silver shields are you sure??I think they will be added just in 0.8...

[Mujalumbo]

Almost completley sure. ;)

From the Diodachi preview: 'The Makedonian Argyraspidai eventually “died out” and was replaced by the reformed Pezhetairoi, while the Seleukid Argyraspidai evolved into an assault infantry corps, the Thorakitai Argyraspidai.'

Argyraspidai seems to mean "silver shield." Even before the preview, I saw that the thorakitia argryaspidai have silver medusa heads on their shield, so I just assumed they were the remnants or continuation of the silver shields.

Either way, they're Bad Dudes(TM), man.

[MaximianusBR]

I'm playing as Baktria and fight some of then...VH/H...they're powerfull!!

[Imperator of rome]

Almost completley sure. ;)

From the Diodachi preview: 'The Makedonian Argyraspidai eventually “died out” and was replaced by the reformed Pezhetairoi, while the Seleukid Argyraspidai evolved into an assault infantry corps, the Thorakitai Argyraspidai.'

Argyraspidai seems to mean "silver shield." Even before the preview, I saw that the thorakitia argryaspidai have silver medusa heads on their shield, so I just assumed they were the remnants or continuation of the silver shields.

Either way, they're Bad Dudes(TM), man.

Yep they are silver shields,but I always put the Hypapistpatai at the right because they are the elite and thrakitai at the left.

[Mujalumbo]

Actually, I was wondering if there were a light, fast cavalry unit. I have few problems convincing the opponents to flee the field of battle, but I've no light, fast cavalry to chase them down with.

I *COULD* bring up Phalava Shivatir or those javelin-armed skirmisher cavalry from the East, I suppose...

[GMT]

Or you could use Mad Asabara (sp?) they're pretty fast too

[Trithemius]

Either way, they're Bad Dudes(TM), man.

Bad enough to rescue the autokrator?

[Simmons]

Yep they are silver shields,but I always put the Hypapistpatai at the right because they are the elite and thrakitai at the left.

Are they??

Argyraspidai

Makedonia - - - - - - - - Arche Seleukeia
The veteran Pezhetairoi often became the Argyraspidai, the Silver Shields. These are tough men often better armed than their fellow phalanx soldiers, who usually are used to hold the center of a Makedonian or Seleukid battle line. They are older and more disciplined than other phalangitai and are thus able to hold their own against good odds. They are armed and armoured much the same as regular Pezhetairoi, but with slightly better equipment and weapons, including scale reinforcement on their Linothorax. They should be employed in much the same manner, except they can be relied on to hold their ground and should accordingly be saved for where the battle is going to be the heaviest.

Historically, the Silver Shields were an elite force within the armies of Alexandros, made up of the veterans often in their mid-40s and upwards. After the death of Alexandros, the term ‘argyraspidai’ came to describe the veterans among the Pezhetairoi, the soldiers aged 45-60. How this happened is anyone’s guess, but it is what came to pass. In Makedonia the term was used to describe the veteran pezhetairoi who more often than not weren’t a distinct corps, while in Arche Seleukeia they remained a distinct unit, as carrying a silver shield was a mark of elite. The Makedonian Argyraspidai eventually “died out” and was replaced by the reformed Pezhetairoi, while the Seleukid Argyraspidai evolved into an assault infantry corps, the Thorakitai Argyraspidai. As with most elite units, they were best utilized as troops that take the brunt of an assault.

Ok so they evolved from pikemen to spearmen??

[Mujalumbo]

Why not represent them as spearmen?

The Seleukid Argyraspidai were descendants of Alexander's Hypapists, and they were presumed to fight in a hoplite formation, no? Sources on them are sketchy at best, but it appears as if they were some sort of special forces; being re-equipped for special assignments, and also being heavily equipped and taking part in set piece battles.

Not being an EB team member, I can't presume to speak for them. However, portraying them as heavily armed, javelin-throwing spearmen, in my opinion, anyway, accurately portrays their tactical flexibility.

[Angadil]

The Seleukid Argyraspidai were descendants of Alexander's Hypapists

First, the connection between Alexander's hypaspists and the later Seleukid Argyraspidai is not at all that clear. Alexander's hypaspists became reorganized into the argyraspidai during Alex's lifetime. They are last heard off as a distinct unit in the 317/316 BCE war between Antigonus and Eumenes. I think that the reports in Diodorus suggest that they were fighting as pikemen now. They were fighting for Eumenes, but when Antigonus managed to capture their camp, with the booty of all those years of campaigning and their families, they went over to the other side, seized Eumenes and handed him to Antigonus. With such an example, Antigonus didn't really trust them, so he broke up the unit and sent them to do garrison duty to some distant frontier province (Arachosia) full of rebellious natives and with secret orders to the province's satrap to keep them in small detachments and to use them non-sparingly. Antigonus might have kept part of the unit he deemed more trustworthy in his service and they might have eventually passed to Seleukus, but there is no "hard" evidence of that.

Seleukos I is reported to have had hypaspists (not called argyraspidai here) with him when fighting Demetros Poliorketes at Cyrrhestica, but no further information is provided. To my knowledge, the next we hear about a Seleukid infantry unit of this kind (elite, Royal Guard) is at Raphia. We keep hearing about it in the subsequent campaigns of Antiochos III and they are called both Argyraspidai and Royal Guard pretty much indistinctly. The sources (mostly Polybios) are reasonably clear in showing them 10.000 strong, permanently attached to the king (i.e. not put on the field only in time of war, as the rest of the phalanx) constantly kept at that strength, fighting as part of the main phalanx, though still at its right (they are not, however, at least neither at Raphia nor at Magnesia, the rightmost infantry, immediately next to the cavalry as the hypaspists usually were, but the right end of the big chunk of phalangites) and equipped as pikemen. Later, in the Daphne parade in the reign or Antiochos IV Epiphanes we still see a Royal Guard 10.000 strong but now, half of them are said to be equipped "in the Roman manner".

To me, it is likely that the Seleukid Royal Guard was a sort of "re-institution" drawing from the Alexandrian original, but also from Persian practice as well (remember the Achaemenids also had a 10.000-strong guard, similarly kept at constant strength and permanently standing with the king, the "Immortals")

and they were presumed to fight in a hoplite formation, no? Sources on them are sketchy at best, but it appears as if they were some sort of special forces; being re-equipped for special assignments, and also being heavily equipped and taking part in set piece battles.

What Alexandrian hypaspists really were or did is not actually relevant here. What matters is what Seleukid Argyraspidai (a different beast) were. It seems that the emerging consensus after many years of discussion is that Alex's hypaspists were multi-purpose, elite infantry, capable of doing many things as the situation dictated and doing them all very well. This multi-role nature, which is now becoming considered part of the hypaspists identity, seems to have been the very source of the debate, as folks tended to emphasize some aspects over others.

Fortunately, I think that the evidence for Seleukid Argyraspidae is clear enough that they were primarily elite "Makedonian-style" phalangites. They may have retained some tactical flexibility, but apparently, not to the extent of the "originals". This is not just EB's opinion. The leading scholars generally support this view (see for example, Dr. Bezalel Bar-Kochva's "The Seleukid Army")

Hope this clears things up.

[Mujalumbo]

Fortunately, I think that the evidence for Seleukid Argyraspidae is clear enough that they were primarily elite "Makedonian-style" phalangites.

Thanks, Angadil, that clears things up.

Will the Seleukid Argyraspides be a phalanx unit in the future? If not, what is the rationale for portraying them as a javelin-throwing spear unit?

Just wanna know, that's all. :)

Ciao!

[Angadil]

Thanks, Angadil, that clears things up.

Will the Seleukid Argyraspides be a phalanx unit in the future? If not, what is the rationale for portraying them as a javelin-throwing spear unit?

Just wanna know, that's all. :)

Ciao!

I'm not sure I'm following you, but in EB you will have both "just" Argyraspidae, and Thorakitai Argyraspidai.

"Just" Arygyraspidai will be a sarissa phalanx, were shown in the May Diadochoi preview and are yet to be implemented. They will represent the 10.000 Royal Guard that, for example, fought at Raphia (217 BCE, IIRC). The Thorakitai Argyraspidai are a further evolution of part of the Royal Guard. To some extent they are EB's representation of those 5.000 members of the Guard "equipped in the Roman manner" that Polybios reported at the Daphne parade (165 BCE) while the other 5.000 still remained equipped as a sarissa phalanx.

Hope that answers?

[Ludens]

"Just" Arygyraspidai will be a sarissa phalanx, were shown in the May Diadochoi preview and are yet to be implemented. They will represent the 10.000 Royal Guard that, for example, fought at Raphia (217 BCE, IIRC). The Thorakitai Argyraspidai are a further evolution of part of the Royal Guard. To some extent they are EB's representation of those 5.000 members of the Guard "equipped in the Roman manner" that Polybios reported at the Daphne parade (165 BCE) while the other 5.000 still remained equipped as a sarissa phalanx.

To some extent? Do you mean that there was something in between Thorakitai Argyraspidai and normal Thorakitai? The Thorakitai Argyraspidai are portrayed as the elite of the elite, and the description mentions that there were only a thousand of them (out of 5.000 Hystapistoi) at any one time, which doesn't really tally with the number of 5.000 you give here.

[Angadil]

To some extent? Do you mean that there was something in between Thorakitai Argyraspidai and normal Thorakitai? The Thorakitai Argyraspidai are portrayed as the elite of the elite, and the description mentions that there were only a thousand of them (out of 5.000 Hystapistoi) at any one time, which doesn't really tally with the number of 5.000 you give here.

I guess I was not very clear. The "to some extent" was there because indeed, the TA are not an absolute equivalent to the 5.000 chaps in Polybius account, though they would be somewhat "related" to them. For example, 1) we have drawn heavily on very recent archaeological evidence and not only on Polybius' report for the unit's looks and gear. 2) Our TA are indeed a sort of inner elite. There are references to guard units of 1.000 men which seem to have had even higher status. Authors are not unanimous and some claim those would refer to the cavalry section of the Royal Guard, while for others they would apply to the infantry guard and they would indicate the existence of "an elite within the elite". The archaeological evidence I mentioned was clearly infantry equipment and so "special" and top-notch that it fitted well with the 2nd suggestion and, hence, we've gone that way.

Hope it's clearer now? Mind you, I'm no real Hellenistic expert...

[Ludens]

Hope it's clearer now? Mind you, I'm no real Hellenistic expert...

It is. Thanks.

[Elthore]

heavy

[Reverend Joe]

heavy

Hippie.